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Williams 2012 - FW34 Renault


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#2051 4L3X

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 22:02

Wow.. Senna was last behind the safety car? What's great drive, and and people say his problem is race pace? Not on this race not... He and Kimi had the same tires, and only Kimi had the track position. And they finished so close....Williams are very good cars it seems, and very happy for them.

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#2052 scheivlak

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 22:12

Wow.. Senna was last behind the safety car? What's great drive, and and people say his problem is race pace? Not on this race not... He and Kimi had the same tires, and only Kimi had the track position. And they finished so close....Williams are very good cars it seems, and very happy for them.

Great car, and a great drive from Bruno who was at least as fast as Alonso in that last dry stint - but he didn't finish close to Kimi, as Kimi was way faster than everybody else on the track in the last nine or so laps.

Distance between RAI and SEN after 47 laps: 1.1"
Distance between RAI and SEN after 56 laps: 8.2"



#2053 glorius&victorius

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 22:30

Damn!!! Coughlan coughed up a great car!

No one mentions his name.. but he came flying in from Nascar... sketched a car and look at the results.
Always thought of him as one of the better designers!

Is he ever present at the races? Havent spotted him yet.

:up: :up:

#2054 LiJu914

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 22:32

Very good race for Senna :up:

#2055 Sevach

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 22:32

Great car, and a great drive from Bruno who was at least as fast as Alonso in that last dry stint - but he didn't finish close to Kimi, as Kimi was way faster than everybody else on the track in the last nine or so laps.

Distance between RAI and SEN after 47 laps: 1.1"
Distance between RAI and SEN after 56 laps: 8.2"


Kimi and Perez were on Hards at the end, Senna and most of the others on Mediums.

Early in the slicks stint, Kimi looked beatable, he wasn't even getting away from Di Resta, and Senna caught up to them.
Later on Kimi was the fastest car on the track, the Williams on mediums was pretty decent but no match for it.

#2056 Sevach

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 22:34

Damn!!! Coughlan coughed up a great car!

No one mentions his name.. but he came flying in from Nascar... sketched a car and look at the results.
Always thought of him as one of the better designers!

Is he ever present at the races? Havent spotted him yet.

:up: :up:


Williams seems to prefer that he takes a low profile and let Gillan do the talking.
Understandable given that Coughlan is bad PR still.

#2057 4L3X

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 22:37

Coughlan is a designer? I thought he worked as a quality control guy at Mclaren.

#2058 Sevach

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 22:42

He was tech director at Arrows and his job at Mclaren was the same one that Pat Fry (now Ferrari tech director) held.

#2059 TheBunk

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 22:43

Damn!!! Coughlan coughed up a great car!

No one mentions his name.. but he came flying in from Nascar... sketched a car and look at the results.
Always thought of him as one of the better designers!

Is he ever present at the races? Havent spotted him yet.

:up: :up:


I was thinking the same. Coughlan is a great adition to Williams. And I absolutly agree Senna did well.

Its gonna be tough for Williams to keep up the development race, but so far so good. Lets hope for more points in China.

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#2060 Seanspeed

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 22:44

Coughlan is a designer? I thought he worked as a quality control guy at Mclaren.

Chief designer at Mclaren.

#2061 Sevach

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 01:18

Exhaust

Clear look on where exhaust gases go.

#2062 the9th

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 07:18

Ii

Damn!!! Coughlan coughed up a great car!

No one mentions his name.. but he came flying in from Nascar... sketched a car and look at the results.
Always thought of him as one of the better designers!

Is he ever present at the races? Havent spotted him yet.

:up: :up:

I was confident they would move upp, after they announced him. Now it should be Parr and (cough cough!) Coughlan for Ferrari...
:o

#2063 IceSkyrim

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:10

Damn!!! Coughlan coughed up a great car!

No one mentions his name.. but he came flying in from Nascar... sketched a car and look at the results.
Always thought of him as one of the better designers!

Is he ever present at the races? Havent spotted him yet.

:up: :up:

Whats next ?

James Toseland as test driver ?

#2064 Little Leaf

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:17

I bet Michael Johnson hadn't reckoned with Pastor not stopping in the right pit when practising pit stops!

Was that Bruno who came in right behind Pastor? Could have been another pit/car, I only saw it once

#2065 Mithrandir

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:28

Coughlan is obviously a great addition for the team, but let's not exaggerate his contribution to the current car. The FW34 is basically last year's car. Same concept without the ridiculous problems it had (overweight, problematic engine, ineffective packaging, EBD). The FW35 will be more of a Coughlan's car I believe.

Edited by Mithrandir, 26 March 2012 - 08:30.


#2066 Petroltorque

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:37

Coughlan is obviously a great addition for the team, but let's not exaggerate his contribution to the current car. The FW34 is basically last year's car. Same concept without the ridiculous problems it had (overweight, problematic engine, ineffective packaging, EBD). The FW35 will be more of a Coughlan's car I believe.

You're joking, right? Last year's car was a flawed concept.

#2067 Mr Plug

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 09:51

Coughlan is obviously a great addition for the team, but let's not exaggerate his contribution to the current car. The FW34 is basically last year's car.


Yeah, really similar. Just different engine, different exhaust, different aero........but I think the seat and wheels are the same so yes, really similar to the FW33. In much the same way that an Avro Vulcan was the same as the Avro Lancaster except for the engines, the wings, the tail......but the bomb-bay was really similar.

#2068 roadie

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:00

Exhaust

Clear look on where exhaust gases go.

I noticed this when watching yesterday. It's fantastic to visibly see how the aerodynamics affect the exhaust plume, even at relatively low speed.

#2069 race addicted

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:18

http://plus.autospor...on-at-williams/

"(....)The new car might not look a lot different from the FW33 – its key features are much the same (....)Evidently, the car's external concepts are very much an evolution from last year"

Indeed the FW34 is very much an evolution of the FW33, and a design led by Coughlan. However I believe both camps are right in a way; while this is a Coughlan-design, next years will be even more so.

#2070 Sevach

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:30

Yes, even a relatively simple, unassuming, exhaust like the one on the FW34 is affecting aero big time.

I believe it hits the beam wing, brake ducts and the diffuser gurney on the FW34, it doesn't seem to go under the floor.
I'm waiting for a Mclaren and RBR engine failure to see if they managed that :p

Coughlan had to make the best possible job with what the resources he had at hand, and even with all it's flaws the FW33 concept have lot's of merits, it just needed cleaning up.
He did a very good job at that.

Going forward, i see no reason to change the concept completely just give it your "signature" (i've come to dread the words "clean sheet of paper").
Sure if you have something that might provide big gains go for it, but think things through before implementing them, that was ultimately the problem with the FW33 imo, too compromised, too much of a hack job.

Edited by Sevach, 26 March 2012 - 10:43.


#2071 roadie

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:32

http://plus.autospor...on-at-williams/

"(....)The new car might not look a lot different from the FW33 – its key features are much the same (....)Evidently, the car's external concepts are very much an evolution from last year"

Indeed the FW34 is very much an evolution of the FW33, and a design led by Coughlan. However I believe both camps are right in a way; while this is a Coughlan-design, next years will be even more so.

Hopefully we'll see the FW34 analysis on Scarbs' blog too!

#2072 Mithrandir

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:53

I was searching for that quote race addicted, thanks.

Coughlan had to make the best possible job with what the resources he had at hand, and even with all it's flaws the FW33 concept have lot's of merits, it just needed cleaning up.
He did a very good job at that.


Indeed the FW34 is very much an evolution of the FW33, and a design led by Coughlan. However I believe both camps are right in a way; while this is a Coughlan-design, next years will be even more so.


Which is what I was trying to say in the first place.
If you are going to disagree with something, do it by using arguments and facts instead of totally baseless (and failed) irony...Mr Plug.

#2073 Jambo

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:49

At the time of the restart I wasn't too cheerful, then as the race went on I got more and more happy. Yes the first lap was bad and Pastor had that issue in the pitlane but the car, again, was fast.

Am always optimistic but that optimism has been backed up by the performance in the first two races, already Williams have outscored last year and more will certainly be added.

The only problem is that Sauber now have a big lead to be clawed back.


#2074 One

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 13:01

http://plus.autospor...on-at-williams/

"(....)The new car might not look a lot different from the FW33 – its key features are much the same (....)Evidently, the car's external concepts are very much an evolution from last year"

Indeed the FW34 is very much an evolution of the FW33, and a design led by Coughlan. However I believe both camps are right in a way; while this is a Coughlan-design, next years will be even more so.


2012 cars do not have EBD, that is the huge change. The way RBR struggles says a lot about the actual effect of F1 car with NO EBD.

Looking back, engine manufacturor selection, that was the huge block for Williams till 2011, where the outfit lost grounds to the other. This year's car is based on 2011, that says a lot about 2011 that it had very limited but accute weak points (EBD and engine)

The team got to go further wth much less drasric changes, that makes more result, this I have learned so far from the 2012 championship.

Edited by One, 26 March 2012 - 13:03.


#2075 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 13:08

2012 cars do not have EBD,


And if you believe that...

#2076 One

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 13:21

And if you believe that...

you would have not thought about doing the thing which Sauber and Mclaren is currently working on... :) Yet the think is a not EBD... Red Bull with Newey's brain power is struggling this much, who have ever thought about this to happen on Red Bull? the reason is... EBD

BTW To bring Senna discussion in scope... Williams could have got Kimi to drive one of the car.... but instead Williams have Senna instead...

#2077 GustavoB

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 16:52

BTW To bring Senna discussion in scope... Williams could have got Kimi to drive one of the car.... but instead Williams have Senna instead...


So....

:confused:

#2078 Mr Plug

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 16:54

Which is what I was trying to say in the first place.
If you are going to disagree with something, do it by using arguments and facts instead of totally baseless (and failed) irony...Mr Plug.


Not sure when - or if - you passed your English GCSE, but there is no such animal as "baseless irony". Failed irony: possibly.

Here is a quote from the Williams site: "Revised FIA technical regulations - of which the most significant are bans on exhaust blowing and exotic engine mapping and a drop in nose height, the FW34 carries fewer than five per cent of the parts from last year’s FW33." So here is a fact for you: it is not "basically last year's car. " You might have been right had you written that FW34 follows some of the FW33's design philosophy, and probably does so with a few carry-over parts. What cannot be argued is that the FW34 is a new car, a major step forward, and that Coughlan deserves a lot of credit - with others - for overseeing it.

Edited by Mr Plug, 26 March 2012 - 16:55.


#2079 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 17:23

There is still EBD but it's not to the same effect. Someone posted a video of a RBR going tu rough a slow corner, you can hear as clear as day the engine misfiring in the corner (this seems to be the way to get around the ECU regs). Obviously because of the new exhaust position it's hard to get as much purchase on the diffuser.

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#2080 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 17:31

Seeing Senna finish 6th yesterday, I'm keen to find out what Maldonado could do if he shakes off his run of bad luck. Maldonado is clearly the faster of the two. I hope he can make it happen now that the Williams is still fast. I expect them to fall back a bit when the season progresses as their development rate will not be as big as the likes of Force India.

#2081 Francesc

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 17:39

Seeing Senna finish 6th yesterday, I'm keen to find out what Maldonado could do if he shakes off his run of bad luck. Maldonado is clearly the faster of the two. I hope he can make it happen now that the Williams is still fast. I expect them to fall back a bit when the season progresses as their development rate will not be as big as the likes of Force India.


Really? I don't think so.

#2082 discover23

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 17:42

Can the williams be truly faster than the Mercedes?
I am very surprised seeing Senna outclass Shumi and specially in the rain.

#2083 Little Leaf

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 18:06

Seeing Senna finish 6th yesterday, I'm keen to find out what Maldonado could do if he shakes off his run of bad luck. Maldonado is clearly the faster of the two. I hope he can make it happen now that the Williams is still fast. I expect them to fall back a bit when the season progresses as their development rate will not be as big as the likes of Force India.


Force India??!! If anything Williams should have more room to improve than any other midfield team, having a new engine this year.

Also excluding last year the past couple of seasons have been good development-wise

#2084 TheBunk

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 18:10

Yeah, really similar. Just different engine, different exhaust, different aero........but I think the seat and wheels are the same so yes, really similar to the FW33. In much the same way that an Avro Vulcan was the same as the Avro Lancaster except for the engines, the wings, the tail......but the bomb-bay was really similar.

:up: :rotfl:

#2085 Kubiccia

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 18:27

My one contribution to this debate regarding the Malaysian GP is regarding the actual car...

When everyone switched to inters & then to slicks both FW34's showed great pace, especially in sector 2, compared to all those around them (the beauty of live timing screens!!)

Whenever they were in clear air they were as quick as anyone, if not quicker.

No. Sauber was faster all the time.

Great car, and a great drive from Bruno who was at least as fast as Alonso in that last dry stint - but he didn't finish close to Kimi, as Kimi was way faster than everybody else on the track in the last nine or so laps.

Yes, and given that Perez was like a second faster than Alonso, then Sauber may be way ahead of Williams in race pace, if the hards weren't masking things over the mediums

Later on Kimi was the fastest car on the track......

He wasn't. Tv screen was showing Perez fastest laps all the time, exception to a single one of Maldonado and a couple of Kimi. But when Kimi did his laps, Perez already had choked and gave up pushing for Alonso.

I think Sauber and Williams will have a big battle in WCC for 5th or even 4th. Ferrari is having luck with Alonso but we know both cars are faster than Ferrari. Mercedes is horrible in race pace and won't be a threat. Lotus is doing good for now but I don't see them country miles ahead, only in qualifying the gap is significant.

Edited by Kubiccia, 26 March 2012 - 18:28.


#2086 PayasYouRace

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 19:00

Not sure when - or if - you passed your English GCSE, but there is no such animal as "baseless irony". Failed irony: possibly.

Here is a quote from the Williams site: "Revised FIA technical regulations - of which the most significant are bans on exhaust blowing and exotic engine mapping and a drop in nose height, the FW34 carries fewer than five per cent of the parts from last year’s FW33." So here is a fact for you: it is not "basically last year's car. " You might have been right had you written that FW34 follows some of the FW33's design philosophy, and probably does so with a few carry-over parts. What cannot be argued is that the FW34 is a new car, a major step forward, and that Coughlan deserves a lot of credit - with others - for overseeing it.


Which doesn't actually contradict that the car is an evolution of last year's. The quote from Williams sounds like the usual marketing guff really. No F1 car would carry much over from the previous year's. What matters is the design concept, as as earlier quote says, the car is an evolution of last year's.

#2087 Petroltorque

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 19:04

The incredible feature of this season is how tyre performance differs with track and ambient temperature. Some teams excel in hot conditions eg Macca, some in cool, Alonso and Sauber and some teams seem to be able to perform in both hot and cool eg Williams and Lotus. Thats the reason why I feel no team will ever have an outright advantage.
Its also interesting that Red Bull are not outstanding in any temperature window and the Mercedes, in race trim has a zero temperature window.

#2088 rayburn

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 19:25

The incredible feature of this season is how tyre performance differs with track and ambient temperature. Some teams excel in hot conditions eg Macca, some in cool, Alonso and Sauber and some teams seem to be able to perform in both hot and cool eg Williams and Lotus. Thats the reason why I feel no team will ever have an outright advantage.
Its also interesting that Red Bull are not outstanding in any temperature window and the Mercedes, in race trim has a zero temperature window.


Should be fast in Moscow then :)


#2089 Sevach

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 21:41

He wasn't. Tv screen was showing Perez fastest laps all the time, exception to a single one of Maldonado and a couple of Kimi. But when Kimi did his laps, Perez already had choked and gave up pushing for Alonso.

I think Sauber and Williams will have a big battle in WCC for 5th or even 4th. Ferrari is having luck with Alonso but we know both cars are faster than Ferrari. Mercedes is horrible in race pace and won't be a threat. Lotus is doing good for now but I don't see them country miles ahead, only in qualifying the gap is significant.


Perez managed to get his hard tires up to speed much more quickly than Kimi (tire warm up reasons???), i remember that immediatly after getting past Di Resta, Senna was closing in on Kimi... But then Kimi's car picked up and was the faster car for the final laps.
If you consider that Senna was dead last after the red flag, he did an outstanding job to get within 1s of Kimi but in the final laps Kimi's hards had an definite edge.

I think that Williams, Sauber and Lotus are close together too, but i don't know what to think of the Mercs, they fall down in performance significantly come the race, but MS might be able to get some results out of it now that he is qualfifying well (Rosberg has no racecraft and will always fall down).
If you think about it even the Redbulls look catchable (not that i expect to catch them) and not much faster than the Lotus.

Development race will decide who comes up ahead.

#2090 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:16

The Williams doesn't look particularly fast in qualifying, but then neither does the Sauber but both are clearly great race cars. Perhaps it's something to do with the way the suspension is set up to use the tyres.

#2091 Sevach

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:20

It's decent enough to get into Q3 but not much else, it won't be in the first 2 rows...

#2092 roadie

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:38

Only two races gone in changeable conditions, but it does appear that Maldonado has the 1 lap pace advantage over Senna at present.

I'm hoping for a dry weekend in China so we can see further how things shake up in the team and in the field as a whole. Is Mercedes really that far off the pace in races? Are Ferrari simply living on luck at present? I do expect both teams to get their act together and Sauber & Williams to be fighting for 6th in the WCC.

#2093 Boing 2

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:16

So, fingers crossed how far can Williams go this year? McLaren Red Bull and Ferrari are all, naturally out of reach and I think Renault may be too.

Sauber have a big point lead at the minute but I don't think they've got a faster car, they've qualified and raced behind Williams so far apart from that one stunner from Pedro. Also, they traditionally have not been great at developing a car accross the season and I think the fact that Williams do so much of the car themselves gives them much more development potential. In the long run I think Williams can get in font of Sauber on points.

Force India don't look as fast as they have in the past and Mallya seems to be having financial problems elswhere, could this affect investment in the team? again would this affect their development? they also buy in their technology so, as with Sauber have less scope to develop.

Torro Rosso looked quick in Melbourne but less so in Malaysia, another team with a bought-in rear end they have the same lack of deveoplment potential and with no tricky-to-grasp aero fandangles such as EBD they cannot gain so much from their association with Red Bull.

Williams biggest burden recently has been that they do all their own stuff, when their technology was poor this was a ball and chain and trying to compete against front-of-the-grid technology was impossible. Now that they seem to be back on the right path technologically, it is a massive asset again giving them speed and development potential. Also, the fact that they have started the season with a fast car, faster even than most of their midfield rivals, means that they can get real benefits out of every upgrade rather than waste half a season trying to get level with competitors, who by then have a large points advantage.

I think with a bit of luck Williams can nail 5th in the constructors championship but Renault is too hard to quantify right now. They are fast and seem to have two quick drivers but they started last year equally quick and slipped back down the grid, will the same be true this year? They've got good DNA but lack Symmonds steady hand. If the team doesn't develop strongly and Grosjean turns out to be a bit accident prone and if Senna and Maldonado can level out their own erratic form? we can dream of 4th but I think it's a dream too far.

Nice to able to think about it without pissing yourself laughing though.

#2094 Little Leaf

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:07

Williams should be aiming for Lotus (same engine after all) and it's not out of the question to achieve that given the room for improvement due to having a new engine this year.

Sauber are a little harder to quantify and have a good points advantage at the moment.

For Williams to beat those 2 teams it will take Senna and Pastor to be performing regularly and not crashing

#2095 Francesc

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:19

I wonder if those two drivers will ever manage a race weekend without crashing, spinning or going off the track in qualifying or the race.

Edited by Francesc, 27 March 2012 - 17:11.


#2096 Little Leaf

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:36

I wonder is those two drivers will ever manage a race weekend without crashing, spinning or going off the track in qualifying or the race.


Good grief, how dull

#2097 Boing 2

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:52

Williams should be aiming for Lotus (same engine after all) and it's not out of the question to achieve that given the room for improvement due to having a new engine this year.

Sauber are a little harder to quantify and have a good points advantage at the moment.

For Williams to beat those 2 teams it will take Senna and Pastor to be performing regularly and not crashing


That's going to be the key, it's early days yet but it looks like the team has got itself on the right track technologically and conceptually. The car looks quick but they can't afford to throw away results and it's looking like a classic case of fast but wild for the two young drivers. Maybe this was a year they should have kept an old hand behind the wheel whether that be Barrichello or Sutil, just someone with a few seasons under their belt.

#2098 John Player

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:09

Podiums are possible.

#2099 rubikimi

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:21

I wonder is those two drivers will ever manage a race weekend without crashing, spinning or going off the track in qualifying or the race.

you wanted senna desperately instead of rubens. tough times for williams fans.lets hope they can get theirselves together and be decent.

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#2100 roadie

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 16:48

I wonder is those two drivers will ever manage a race weekend without crashing, spinning or going off the track in qualifying or the race.

This is key. There have been highly visible mistakes from both drivers so far. These need to be ironed out, especially as there are points on offer because of the poor showing Ferrari and Mercedes have had.