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Williams 2012 - FW34 Renault


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#2101 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 21:04

you wanted senna desperately instead of rubens. tough times for williams fans.lets hope they can get theirselves together and be decent.


No, last year was tough times.

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#2102 DanardiF1

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 23:10

you wanted senna desperately instead of rubens. tough times for williams fans.lets hope they can get theirselves together and be decent.


Bruno just scored in one race more than Rubens and Pastor combined last year, so I think they're getting things together quite nicely. Factor in Pastor's lost points in Melbourne and Sepang and things would look a hell of a lot rosier, but that's F1.

#2103 IceSkyrim

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 02:45

Kudos to Senna that adjusted his car without FP1 that went to Bottas.

Senna was cursing it bcs Williams followed a completelly different path to his liking in car settings.

But I also got a good impression on Bottas, that took diferent racing lines compared to the others and managed to get a decent time.

Bottas, Mika's chosen one. :up:

Edited by IceSkyrim, 28 March 2012 - 02:46.


#2104 Little Leaf

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 04:39

This link was added in the Adam Parr thread.

http://f1mole.wordpr...es-a-boat-trip/

If as here is suggested Pastors' sponsorship is in question for next year due to Chaves health and/or re-election (we have heard this before but go on...) then Bruno could be fighting for the seat alongside Bottas, if he is seen as the one for next year.

So it is imperetive that Bruno does his upmost to get ahead of Pastor.

It's all open for next year, another reason it is not a bad idea that Bottas is getting so much mileage

#2105 Petroltorque

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 05:00

Can the williams be truly faster than the Mercedes?
I am very surprised seeing Senna outclass Shumi and specially in the rain.

Williams is faster than Mercedes on race pace because they use the tyres better. Tyre wear is inherent to the mechanical layout and excessive tyre wear is not easy to fix. Mercedes never solved this problem last year and I can't see them curing it this year either.

#2106 teejay

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 05:10

I dont see the change to the Renault engine being a big issue in terms of adjustments.

Also, I think the improvement is through a genuinely good car, and not the motor change.

Look at how the switch to Renault has helped Caterham so far...

#2107 One

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 09:27

Bottas, Mika's chosen one. :up:


What are we waiting for? Give him race drive in China!

#2108 race addicted

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 09:35

'Cause that would be so logical, right after Senna went from last at one point, to sixth....

#2109 Little Leaf

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 09:54

'Cause that would be so logical, right after Senna went from last at one point, to sixth....

He didn't say in place of Senna.

Never going to happen this year but depending on Pastors' sponsorship we could end up with a Senna Bottas pairing next season.

#2110 IceSkyrim

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 10:35

He didn't say in place of Senna.

Never going to happen this year but depending on Pastors' sponsorship we could end up with a Senna Bottas pairing next season.

Senna to Ferrari. :wave:

#2111 One

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 11:03

Senna to Ferrari. :wave:


Huur? :confused:


If so then do it now before Massa returned to his form. Williams can then fill the seat with Botta.
Honestly Pastor can now finish better. then the case should be closed for now.

#2112 iotar

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 11:04

Williams should rethink their Senna-Bottas strategy. It was OK for lower midfield and odd points scored now and then. Now when the car is better than expected it would be unreasonable to handicap one of the drivers over the whole season.

Fifteen lost free practices is a lot and such a good season might not repeat itself. Differences in midfield are really small and it's hard to compete when you're part time F1 driver - 75% of races is compromised. Leave Bottas five or seven if they have to.+

#2113 race addicted

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 12:25

He didn't say in place of Senna.

Never going to happen this year but depending on Pastors' sponsorship we could end up with a Senna Bottas pairing next season.


True he didn't, but we're talking $30m vs, I don't know $6m? Williams are dependent on the PDVSA-deal next year too I would think, so Senna are the one likely to go. His deal was only for one year as well, and it's become "common sense" that Bottas are being lined up and groomed to replace him.

Senna, who's got Carlos Slim backing him, could well end up with Sauber when Perez joins Ferrari (next year).

Edited by race addicted, 28 March 2012 - 12:26.


#2114 joora

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 12:40

I just hope that good results this year would lure heavy Quatar sponsorship that Williams is trying to get for years. That would solve almost all financial problems and make the team less dependant on drivers with backing.

#2115 Anderis

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 12:52

True he didn't, but we're talking $30m vs, I don't know $6m? Williams are dependent on the PDVSA-deal next year too I would think, so Senna are the one likely to go.


PDVSA deal is about $45m and Senna's sponsors bring together, I believe, about $15m. This makes Pastor a lot better option at the moment, but we must consider two things:
- Maldonado is far more likely to lose his backing somewhere in the near future. There are rumours that Chavez has advanced cancer and there is election in Venezuela this year AFAIK. PDVSA deal may fall easily without Chavez's support.
- Senna is likely to gain some backing. It's even possible that ORIS has renewed the deal with Williams due to him, as their logo's disappeared from Williams and when came back, you can also see that Bruno is very visible on ORIS's official website. You should also consider that Senna in Williams-Renault driving the car somewhere near front may attract new sponsors as well. What is more, there is a possibility for Williams to expand current deals. Gillette/Head&Shoulders/P&G certainly have potential to pay more if they will find out some benefits from this.

So the biggest influence will have the fact how the situation will evolve IMO. At the moment Pastor brings much more money, but this can easily change before 2013. It's interesting question. Will it be Maldonado-Senna, Maldonado-Bottas or Senna-Bottas in 2013? Hard to judge now.

#2116 Disgrace

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 12:55

I'd be dumbfounded if they gave Bottas 15 practice sessions in 2012, and not have him in a race seat for 2013. I think a Maldonado/Senna line-up for next year would be by far the least likely option.

Edited by Disgrace, 28 March 2012 - 12:56.


#2117 Little Leaf

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 13:00

True he didn't, but we're talking $30m vs, I don't know $6m? Williams are dependent on the PDVSA-deal next year too I would think, so Senna are the one likely to go. His deal was only for one year as well, and it's become "common sense" that Bottas are being lined up and groomed to replace him.


PDVSA deal is about $45m and Senna's sponsors bring together, I believe, about $15m. This makes Pastor a lot better option at the moment, but we must consider two things:
[b]- Maldonado is far more likely to lose his backing somewhere in the near future. There are rumours that Chavez has advanced cancer and there is election in Venezuela this year AFAIK. PDVSA deal may fall easily without Chavez's support.[/b.

That's what I'm talking about, if Pastor loses his sponsor money he may be left looking for a drive

#2118 race addicted

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 13:12

If the PVSA deal is no longer go for '13 then I agree, but that subject doesn't call for a discussion, it is obvious.
I don't believe any of the two, Maldonado and Senna, are part of Williams long term strategy, 'cause they are flat out working on getting more "normal" sponsors, who doesn't demand a certain (sub-par) driver at the team.
Bottas is a true talent, a case of the cream rising to the top, and that's much more how Williams want to be perceived.

For '13 I am sure it is going to be Maldonado-Bottas.

#2119 One

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 13:27

I for one, hope that the tea will be able to decide driver choice on the basis of his speed not money,... hope... as of which to replace with Botta, or not to, got to be a lot more complexity due results/money balance... If Botta get money and so on is the area where I rather hope not stick my head in.

Perhaps very unrealistic ...

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#2120 4L3X

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 16:06

I don't get this Bottas hype. He should go GP2 and be competitive there first. Too soon to go F1.

#2121 GustavoB

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 16:18

Williams can easily pick 5M and buy a seat for bottas at HRT or Marussia to give him some experience. So, Bottas would go to Williams only in 2014.


#2122 joora

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 16:34

Williams can easily pick 5M and buy a seat for bottas at HRT or Marussia to give him some experience. So, Bottas would go to Williams only in 2014.


I think that would be the best solution. A season in the back would give him some racing experience and prepare him for a more serious drive. Williams is not in the back of the midfield anymore, and if they want to nail the next season I doubt having a rookie in the team (again) would make it happen. No matter how talented is the rookie.

#2123 One

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:16

It will cost 5M for Williams and Bottas wil ldrive for another. result wil be not too suite, I am afraid. If you have 5M to through away for Bottas, then keep him in the car immediately and spend 5M for own sake. He will learn, or else replace him again with another.

Sending him to GP2, I think it is too late, doing GP2 2013 is complex in terms of driver choice for 2013 season and result in GP2 does not necessarily dictate the performance in F1, although it can help him grow. Koba got launched in Toyota car, and some like Kimi just jumped in. At some point Williams need tomake decision aboyt Bottas and therefore I think that the best way is to through him in to race seat like after Monza 2012.

#2124 GustavoB

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 12:07

It will cost 5M for Williams and Bottas wil ldrive for another. result wil be not too suite, I am afraid. If you have 5M to through away for Bottas, then keep him in the car immediately and spend 5M for own sake. He will learn, or else replace him again with another.

Sending him to GP2, I think it is too late, doing GP2 2013 is complex in terms of driver choice for 2013 season and result in GP2 does not necessarily dictate the performance in F1, although it can help him grow. Koba got launched in Toyota car, and some like Kimi just jumped in. At some point Williams need tomake decision aboyt Bottas and therefore I think that the best way is to through him in to race seat like after Monza 2012.

Williams need to do the math. Next year they can have 2 more experienced pilots that are bringing money. They will have all the data about them. How many points they grab, how many points they lost beause reability, because they pilots mistakes. So, they need to think. Change one of them with a rookie is a good thing? They know how many mistakes a rookie can do in a season, look to Hulk in 2010 and Maldo in 2011. How many points they lost? The size of the repair bill?
Without having any data :drunk: I think that maybe buying a seat in a small team will be a better decision than put Bottas already on the team.

#2125 One

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 12:38

Well,... Williams is racing for result, not for money, this is the way I personally think. I wonder if it is important to hang on to driver with money and let the point scoring option go.

It is important to think, observe and do thing methodically. If Bottas out perform one of the two drivers consistently during the 2012 season in FP1, then the team need to make decision, no matter how and what the result may be. It must bring the team forward. This said, the unchosen one can get another option to other growing teams. Certainly HRT, Marussia will go forward and the rest of the paddock is looking for a chances, Caterham Sauber you name it. Money can bring some good to teams.

Keep finger crossed to the boys who are racing for results. I am not trying to put noone of the guys down here. Just saying that racing is tough, and we should all try to celebrate and make good results for those who are involved in.

Edited by One, 29 March 2012 - 12:40.


#2126 GustavoB

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 14:25

Well,... Williams is racing for result, not for money, this is the way I personally think. I wonder if it is important to hang on to driver with money and let the point scoring option go.

It is important to think, observe and do thing methodically. If Bottas out perform one of the two drivers consistently during the 2012 season in FP1, then the team need to make decision, no matter how and what the result may be. It must bring the team forward. This said, the unchosen one can get another option to other growing teams. Certainly HRT, Marussia will go forward and the rest of the paddock is looking for a chances, Caterham Sauber you name it. Money can bring some good to teams.

Keep finger crossed to the boys who are racing for results. I am not trying to put noone of the guys down here. Just saying that racing is tough, and we should all try to celebrate and make good results for those who are involved in.

What I failed to explain is that both williams drivers will be more experienced next year. Normally we'll expect both to have less mistakes than a rookie, and have more points than a rookie. So, more points plus money from sponsors Maybe (a big maybe) in the long run Bottas will prove to be better than both but in his first year I don't believe it will happen. So, it's safer to put him someplace else to gain experience. Doing some Friday run is very different from actually racing.

#2127 4L3X

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 14:55

Since when can we compare Bottas P1 time with the regulars? Did Williams say, yeah, to hell with the programme, we just send Bottas to try the fastest setup in P1 and make him do a low fuel run to see how he goes.

I don't think so. We just don't know. His best time may have newer tires or 5Kg less fuel for some freaky reason (red flag or traffic) after a run. Who knows? I may have missed the memo.

Last P1 for instance, Massa was seconds off Alonso pace in P1, P2, P3, and in qualy he was what .3 off?

I don't see the reason why people are praising Bottas so much NOW.

#2128 IceSkyrim

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 15:02

I don't see the reason why people are praising Bottas so much NOW.

Bottas participated in the new drivers sessions [4 days] aboard of last year's Williams with 2012 adapted exhaust and he did well there too.

Vergne al so did a few days of testing session and some FP1 too and got a ToroRosso seat.

#2129 One

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 15:31

Since when can we compare Bottas P1 time with the regulars? Did Williams say, yeah, to hell with the programme, we just send Bottas to try the fastest setup in P1 and make him do a low fuel run to see how he goes.

I don't think so. We just don't know. His best time may have newer tires or 5Kg less fuel for some freaky reason (red flag or traffic) after a run. Who knows? I may have missed the memo.

Last P1 for instance, Massa was seconds off Alonso pace in P1, P2, P3, and in qualy he was what .3 off?

I don't see the reason why people are praising Bottas so much NOW.


We (on the web) do not know whatWilliams was doing on the day at FP1, but Williams do. From the time that was issued, Bottas looked fine, bang at the first time with no fuss about gettingused to bits of this and that, bang the time the next,... this gives a good impression. Alonso was like that, Senna,... can't compare to none actually as I know too little about it. All what I am saying is that if the team know well what Bottas can and if its beats one of the two, replace him give seat and bang there he goes more points up turning team... or not?

#2130 4L3X

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 15:47

I don't want to look like I'm against Bottas. I just think that it's just to soon to talk about replacing Maldonado, not to mention Senna. They're not doing a bad job at all. A few others could be doing better, sure, but not a rookie, and the experienced one were not interested in a Williams or didn't want to pay anything or not enough (RB, Hulk, etc.).

And of course, Williams know. If they replace one of the drivers with Bottas, it's going to be hard to argue with that, not before the results come in.

#2131 IceSkyrim

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 16:24

I don't want to look like I'm against Bottas. I just think that it's just to soon to talk about replacing Maldonado, not to mention Senna. They're not doing a bad job at all. A few others could be doing better, sure, but not a rookie, and the experienced one were not interested in a Williams or didn't want to pay anything or not enough (RB, Hulk, etc.).

And of course, Williams know. If they replace one of the drivers with Bottas, it's going to be hard to argue with that, not before the results come in.

Well but Williams needs a third/reserve driver.
Both Maldo and Senna are too young and daring.
Those two drivers crashed 4 times in two races, one of them among each other.
So they need a guy that can take the car out of the garage.

Compare Williams to Ferrari, that doesn't have an official third driver.


#2132 One

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:56

Is Williams racing Bottas in China? China is such a market a talk on drivers shift will most certainly create bazz on team, every single one on paddock will be talking about Williams, that should be good for sponsor exposure. At Bahrain, the team can replace Bottas with regular driver and then yet again guys will be talking about Williams and their sponsor. All magaszines to feature Williams for coming two issues, that should be a good justification to put Bottas in one of the car.

#2133 DanardiF1

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 12:09

Is Williams racing Bottas in China? China is such a market a talk on drivers shift will most certainly create bazz on team, every single one on paddock will be talking about Williams, that should be good for sponsor exposure. At Bahrain, the team can replace Bottas with regular driver and then yet again guys will be talking about Williams and their sponsor. All magaszines to feature Williams for coming two issues, that should be a good justification to put Bottas in one of the car.


They'd be in danger of violating any contracts that are tied into Senna and Maldonado's own deals with the team, as to what sponsors have demanded. There might only be a provision for replacement in extreme circumstances, where personal terms have been breached or the driver is gravely injured etc., but otherwise with these two drivers I'm pretty certain that it's run them or lose the money.

Bottas is a great prospect no doubt, but I don't think there should be a rush to race him. Williams didn't do that with Hulkenberg, Force India didn't do it with Di Resta (and subsequently Hulkenberg again). The FP1 program is as much of a place for the young Finn to show his capabilities as his peers around him have been afforded. And if Williams are serious about him, which I believe they are much as they were with the two Nico's, then they won't rush him into anything he's not entirely ready for yet.

#2134 paulogman

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 15:42

it's more important now for williams to work on improving their team infrastructure and developing a competitive basis both in terms of the car and the team work involved in competing throughout the season.
the drivers will show at times that the car is competitive, they will make mistakes because they are not among the elite drivers. williams was a bottom rung team based on their results from last season, now they have to deal with those consequences as they try to recover. they are not in a position to put either maldonado or senna out of the car because of the investment made by their sponsors.


#2135 Kyo

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 16:11

Is Williams racing Bottas in China? China is such a market a talk on drivers shift will most certainly create bazz on team, every single one on paddock will be talking about Williams, that should be good for sponsor exposure. At Bahrain, the team can replace Bottas with regular driver and then yet again guys will be talking about Williams and their sponsor. All magaszines to feature Williams for coming two issues, that should be a good justification to put Bottas in one of the car.


This would be completely unprofessional. The only team I remember doing something like this was HRT.

Not gonna happen!

Bottas will only get a seat if:

1- Drivers have some medical or judicial problem
2- At the end of the season one driver is doing a poor job and Bottas get some serious sponsor


#2136 joora

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 16:29

Is Williams racing Bottas in China? China is such a market a talk on drivers shift will most certainly create bazz on team, every single one on paddock will be talking about Williams, that should be good for sponsor exposure. At Bahrain, the team can replace Bottas with regular driver and then yet again guys will be talking about Williams and their sponsor. All magaszines to feature Williams for coming two issues, that should be a good justification to put Bottas in one of the car.


I don't see any potential in racing Bottas this season. It would just paint a bad picture of the team (lack of professionalism in honouring driver contracts). Besides, Maldonado showed good (if not great) pace so far, and Senna managed to bag a few points, I would rather like to see them get into rythm of taking points in every race than disturbing team harmony with racing a rookie for PR reasons.

There is already a positive buzz around Williams, it will only get louder when they start winning points regularly.

#2137 One

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 19:38

Ok. I think so too.

But Bottas will beat at least one of the two drivers, I do mean it

#2138 Nustang70

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 02:27

I honestly don't understand why Williams are so deeply vested in Bottas (other than Toto Wolff being his manager). He's never struck me as being head and shoulders above the other top drivers in the crop he came up with.

Bottas' place at Williams undermines the team's comeback. Williams can't replace their sponsored drivers unless the team's finances improve; their finances won't improve until their drivers start getting good results; and their drivers need all their practice sessions to maximize their potential.

Why put Bottas in any practice sessions? It is totally counterproductive.

#2139 Little Leaf

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 04:31

I honestly don't understand why Williams are so deeply vested in Bottas (other than Toto Wolff being his manager). He's never struck me as being head and shoulders above the other top drivers in the crop he came up with.

Bottas' place at Williams undermines the team's comeback. Williams can't replace their sponsored drivers unless the team's finances improve; their finances won't improve until their drivers start getting good results; and their drivers need all their practice sessions to maximize their potential.

Why put Bottas in any practice sessions? It is totally counterproductive.


How much of a setback is it really to miss FP1? I know it's not ideal but it's not as if the car has no running. As long as the set-up goes in the right direction!

Bottas is clearly being lined up for a seat next season, if that is to be with Williams rather than loaned out for a year I will also be interested to see where the shortfall in sponsor money will come from

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#2140 teejay

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 04:35

If Williams had a spare 5m to send him to HRT surely they would invest it into the car to drive them up the WCC which would reap returns far greater then 5m -

- WCC money

- Better results = new sponsors

#2141 Nustang70

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 04:53

How much of a setback is it really to miss FP1? I know it's not ideal but it's not as if the car has no running. As long as the set-up goes in the right direction!

Bottas is clearly being lined up for a seat next season, if that is to be with Williams rather than loaned out for a year I will also be interested to see where the shortfall in sponsor money will come from


It's enough of a setback that none of the top teams ever give FP1 to their third drivers. And if Ferrari or Red Bull can't afford to give any FP1's to their young drivers, why should Williams?




#2142 Little Leaf

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 05:12

It's enough of a setback that none of the top teams ever give FP1 to their third drivers. And if Ferrari or Red Bull can't afford to give any FP1's to their young drivers, why should Williams?


I understand what you are saying but teams like Williams, when they take on new drivers, are generally out of GP2 or another lower formula. ie they have no F1 experience apart from a couple of testing days. How many top teams do that? Red Bull have a second team to bring their drivers along, and Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes don't generally take on drivers without a serious amount of testing or F1 races behind them

#2143 Tract1on

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 13:51

Bottas is surely being lined up for 2013.
I would guess its a straight fight between Pastor and Bruno, whoever comes out clearly on top gets the gig?
I hope Bruno can start to qualify a little higher and convert that race pace into strong results.

Edited by Tract1on, 04 April 2012 - 14:36.


#2144 highdownforce

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 14:14

How much of a setback is it really to miss FP1? I know it's not ideal but it's not as if the car has no running. As long as the set-up goes in the right direction!

Bad news for you: Senna complained in Malaysia that Bottas' setup was completely different for his setup.

Bottas is surely being lined up for 2013.
I would guess its a straight fight between Pastor and Bruno, however comes out clearly on top gets the gig?

Unfortunately, I don't think this is a straight fight.
IMO, unless something extraordinary happens, we already know Williams 2013 line up.

#2145 PNSD

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 14:23

Indeed. The fact that Senna is the one being replaced in FP1 says enough. It's up to Senna however to prove he is worth an F1 drive. If he is, Bottas will be sent to another team for a year IMO.

#2146 Disgrace

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:56

I reckon they'll still get rid of him, even if he outperforms Maldonado. They're investing in Bottas and Maldonado is back-rolling the overwhelming majority of it.

Senna's only real hope is if Maldonado's sponsorship falls through due to the Chavez situation. But then I reckon he would need to find more money yet.

As PNSD says, replacing just Senna in 15 FP1s really does say enough. At least Force India's policy is to rotate the drivers losing track time.

#2147 Little Leaf

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 04:13

Bad news for you: Senna complained in Malaysia that Bottas' setup was completely different for his setup.


I know, that was my point

So it will be interesting to see what they do the next time Bottas drives in FP1.

#2148 Meanbeakin

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:11

Yep, this season for Bruno is about putting in some good results and proving his worthiness for teams other than Williams.

#2149 bobban86

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:31

Indeed. The fact that Senna is the one being replaced in FP1 says enough. It's up to Senna however to prove he is worth an F1 drive. If he is, Bottas will be sent to another team for a year IMO.


Cant be easy knowing that ahead of the season, always on the back foot. Anyways, I guess that most people involved will realise that this is the case and judge results considering.


#2150 One

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 09:17

It it were Sauber, He might have put Bottas in one of his car, thatis what I think. there is no point cooking Bottas in FP1 car after a year of letting him watch how weekend pans out. Race him, i guess he is ready. If it were Flav, he might have put Bottas in Minardi. Now that Minardi is gone and HRT was filled with two men there is no point, in trying to place him there. Williams could have done so this year. Could do it on Marussia the next year.

Rally, forge him to race.

The point is, Bottas will collect points more than what the current pairing could do. That is the whole point. The team ups its standings, therefore achieving quicker recovery. this makes good sense.

Yet once again. It is professor who checks Botta's performance and the team to make decision when it is ready. If it is ready, it must be relentless.