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Williams 2012 - FW34 Renault


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#201 marcoferrari

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 14:20

A fast idiot is always preferred over a slow genius. Maldonado is an reasonably fast idiot, so I wouldn't say he's very much like Hamilton.


Fast idiot over ONE lap... His spanish and british races were terrible...

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#202 Anderis

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 15:16

While he has good race pace at some other circuits, Belgium for example.

It's impossible to be quick throughout the weekend on most circuits with a such car like FW33.

Edited by Anderis, 02 December 2011 - 15:16.


#203 Jambo

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 21:01

What's going on with all the insane Williams driver threads?

Glad this has stayed relatively sensible!



#204 King Six

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 00:46

Was there any consensus or whatever as to why the FW33 was so bad, even upgrades couldn't help it. I haven't read much, you'd think someone would have said something specific as to why the car was so slow.

#205 Sevach

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 02:23

Was there any consensus or whatever as to why the FW33 was so bad, even upgrades couldn't help it. I haven't read much, you'd think someone would have said something specific as to why the car was so slow.


Adam Parr said late in the season that they figured out why the car was crap and the new one will be much better, but they didn't say what was the cause.

Looking at the onboards, and there weren't many during the year sadly, i would say that the FW33 had a cronic problem of rear end grip, and horrible, horrible, really really bad traction.
The front actually was looking okish from what i could tell.

Btw this is just armchair observations, i have no concrete facts behind it.

Edited by Sevach, 04 December 2011 - 02:33.


#206 primer

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 06:53

Sad days for a multi world championship winning team . When you see them being forced to sign a third tier driver like Maldonado purely to fund the Renault deal.

And was it not 'sad' when they had to use a paydriver like McDonaldo this season? You make it sound as if 2012 will be the first time Williams will be using a paydriver to finance their operations.

#207 One

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 09:18

And was it not 'sad' when they had to use a paydriver like McDonaldo this season? You make it sound as if 2012 will be the first time Williams will be using a paydriver to finance their operations.


You coul say Vettel the biggest 'pay driver' of the grid as he cOmes with huge racing team.

#208 Anderis

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 09:55

Was there any consensus or whatever as to why the FW33 was so bad, even upgrades couldn't help it. I haven't read much, you'd think someone would have said something specific as to why the car was so slow.

AFAIK there were two main reasons. One of them was that Cosworth engine couldn't make EBD works as well as the other engines and the second one was the mistake in the design of the car, which caused that there was necessary to run FW33 higher than it was predicted when it was designed and that caused huge problems with balance. Barrichello said something about that in one of his interviews.

#209 Francesc

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 10:32

AFAIK there were two main reasons. One of them was that Cosworth engine couldn't make EBD works as well as the other engines and the second one was the mistake in the design of the car, which caused that there was necessary to run FW33 higher than it was predicted when it was designed and that caused huge problems with balance. Barrichello said something about that in one of his interviews.


Yep.

"At the beginning of the testing we didn't have a very well-balanced car, but we were able to do things with it. We ran a much lower ride height than last year, and we were able to get the benefits from it. And all of a sudden we kept on breaking the floor, and they kept saying, 'We can fix it, we can fix it.'

"By the time we got to the first race, that was never fixed, so we had to raise the car a great amount, and then we lost so much. By the time the car was fixed, the other teams had made a huge development on other stuff. So we were never able to conquer that."

#210 Sevach

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 02:45

They really crapped the bed with that car.

Globo tv said something about this on their broadcast, but never got this much detail :up:

#211 Disgrace

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 03:10

What's going on with all the insane Williams driver threads?


It was one idiot, then someone made a humorous parody.

#212 Little Leaf

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 07:22

And was it not 'sad' when they had to use a paydriver like McDonaldo this season? You make it sound as if 2012 will be the first time Williams will be using a paydriver to finance their operations.


Let's face it, Nakajima was also a "pay driver" via his Toyota engine deal.

Nobody was up in arms when he was signed, and he has a lesser record than Maldonado.

#213 One

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 08:36

Yep.

"At the beginning of the testing we didn't have a very well-balanced car, but we were able to do things with it. We ran a much lower ride height than last year, and we were able to get the benefits from it. And all of a sudden we kept on breaking the floor, and they kept saying, 'We can fix it, we can fix it.'

"By the time we got to the first race, that was never fixed, so we had to raise the car a great amount, and then we lost so much. By the time the car was fixed, the other teams had made a huge development on other stuff. So we were never able to conquer that."


:up:

The proof of Williams being truly aggressive, but sadly payed a huge price 2011.
We know that without aggression car will not go faster than the last year. In one way or the other, Mike and new organization will approach the chassis design in other ways.
Looking forward to seeing it. I can only believe that we might see a car as beautiful as Last Mclaren that Mike has designed and produced. That smooth monster detailed like a magic.


#214 Sevach

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 09:32

Were them trying to do a flex floor but failed?
Coughlan being the guy behind the 2007 floor issues might be something of a savant in the area.

Also according to the interview the car had a bad balance even when running low, something else didn't work as intended.

#215 One

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 09:35

Were them trying to do a flex floor but failed?
Coughlan being the guy behind the 2007 floor issues might be something of a savant in the area.

Also according to the interview the car had a bad balance even when running low, something else didn't work as intended.


Is it same as saying that no race car is perfect? Sure RB7 may have a defects in top speed.

#216 Little Leaf

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 09:52

:up:

The proof of Williams being truly aggressive, but sadly payed a huge price 2011.
We know that without aggression car will not go faster than the last year. In one way or the other, Mike and new organization will approach the chassis design in other ways.
Looking forward to seeing it. I can only believe that we might see a car as beautiful as Last Mclaren that Mike has designed and produced. That smooth monster detailed like a magic.


Similar to Renault 2011, with the front facing exhausts.

At the end of the day if you're not adventurous you will always be fighting with other teams who just "toe-the-line", ie Torro Rosso and Sauber.

Difficult decision to make, whether to risk everything and fall short like Williams 2011, or play the safe card

#217 Sevach

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 10:34

Is it same as saying that no race car is perfect? Sure RB7 may have a defects in top speed.


Not at all, Redbull cars have "bad" aero penetration pretty much by design, it pays off in the end.

Williams didn't aim to make an ill handling car...
Downforce, brought by running lower, masked some of the car problems but didn't erase them.


Edited by Sevach, 05 December 2011 - 10:44.


#218 One

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 11:14

Not at all, Redbull cars have "bad" aero penetration pretty much by design, it pays off in the end.

Williams didn't aim to make an ill handling car...
Downforce, brought by running lower, masked some of the car problems but didn't erase them.


No Williams did tried to run car lower, meaning to gain better balance by means of it. Not fixing floor issue meant compromise in balance. So it was a direct consequences in taking this specific risk. This is the same for Red Bull having large frontal projection surface, it is a risk.

Never the less, Mclaren with Coughlan's had awed paddock with the car.

edit spell

Edited by One, 05 December 2011 - 11:14.


#219 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 11:49

Coughlan wasn't with the team pre season....

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#220 Sevach

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 14:16

No Williams did tried to run car lower, meaning to gain better balance by means of it. Not fixing floor issue meant compromise in balance. So it was a direct consequences in taking this specific risk. This is the same for Red Bull having large frontal projection surface, it is a risk.

Never the less, Mclaren with Coughlan's had awed paddock with the car.

edit spell


Barrichello said that the car didn't have a good balance even when it was running lower, obviously, lower=more downforce so the car was faster even if it had a bad balance.
And then when you even have to run higher than intended... things go down the crapper hard, as seen this season.

Redbull is a calculated risk imo, they figured out the ups and downs of such design.

I do have high hopes for Coughlan's FW34 :up:


#221 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 23:59

Handling quality isn't necessarily proportional to performance... lots of drivers have said that the fastest cars they have driven were "edgy".

#222 Disgrace

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 00:43

This car was a turd, let's not pussyfoot around the issue. Time to move on to the new car, which better be better or it could be Tyrrell 1998.

Edited by Disgrace, 06 December 2011 - 00:49.


#223 Little Leaf

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 06:08

It's absolutely essential that they understand WHY the FW33 was such a turd, and don't make the same mistakes again.

Equally if there is a problem with the wind tunnel they need to sort it out otherwise they will continue to get mis-information

Edited by Little Leaf, 06 December 2011 - 06:08.


#224 Sevach

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 01:34

Parr already said they do know/understand why it was crap, and that is why the new car will be a lot better.

I just hope this isn't hot air coming out of his mouth.

#225 KiwiF1

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 07:05

Parr already said they do know/understand why it was crap, and that is why the new car will be a lot better.

I just hope this isn't hot air coming out of his mouth.

Parr was saying this off course it is hot air. Only a few days before Mark Gillan was saying they still had no idea why the car behaved the way it did!!!

#226 PayasYouRace

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 10:51

button to wiliams in 2013 ???


I'd love Button to return to Williams at some point. It would be returning home so to speak. But he fits in so well at McLaren that I wouldn't wish that on him at the moment. If the FW35 turned out to be another FW11, 14 or 18, then bring it on.

#227 Jambo

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 13:49

The car was a very poor one, not helped by the Cossie being unable to blow the exhaust in the same manner as the other teams, I think if the Silverstone ban had stayed Williams would have had a better second half of the season.

Nevertheless, they say they know where they went wrong, and they now have an engine that is proven. Should be interesting.

One final thing from me on the "pay driver" thing. Pastor was GP2 champion, that's pretty much it, yes he brings money but he also was a proven talent. Alonso has always brought a tonne of money with him and no-one worries about that? Of course not.

#228 One

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 15:32

I am just guessing that the part of the reason why the 33 performed so was due the risks that the team took in trying to over take the guys in front. With the lack of testing it is important to consolidate good design solutions that performs in the rule sets. Hopefully Prof has found out wat to keep and what not, and build 34 upon good solid base parts of 33.

#229 Tiakumosan

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 15:52

Was 33 or 32 a new-from-scratch car? Hope 34 is good enough.

#230 Longtimefan

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 16:28

Williams NEED a solid 2012 or it could be their last...


#231 Little Leaf

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 09:53

Was 33 or 32 a new-from-scratch car? Hope 34 is good enough.


They made a big song and dance about the 33 being an all new concept. Although the 32 was pretty solid

Could have worked, but didn't

#232 Sevach

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 11:06

I remember Sam Michael "designed from a clean sheet of paper" at the 32 launch as well.

Meanwhile Force India is steadly developing their 09 concept.

#233 One

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 11:15

They made a big song and dance about the 33 being an all new concept. Although the 32 was pretty solid

Could have worked, but didn't


I guess Sam knew what was going on, so went for fist fight. Hope New staff will build upon whatever to grab from the 33.

#234 Francesc

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 11:30

Both 32 and 33 were "a clean sheet of paper". Ah, and the 31 too of course.

And I think the FW34 will be an all new design yet again, they should get away from Sam Michael heritage. With different engine, different cooling requirements, different rules on the front end, and of course the disastrous floor section of the FW33, only the wings, KERS and gearbox will be carried over.

#235 Sevach

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 11:38

Not so sure the gearbox concept will be carried into 2012.

It is okish on the realiability front, but i don't think it gave the advantage the team expected.
Perhaps a longer but slimer version (RBR style) would be better.

#236 Francesc

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 11:53

I doubt the team can afford to design a completely different concept of gearbox yet again. Barrichello said that the gearbox was the least of their problems, so expect to see it again. Better to spend the money on aerodynamics. Also I would like to see that gearbox with a non flawed car.

Edited by Francesc, 08 December 2011 - 11:54.


#237 Little Leaf

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 12:13

I doubt the team can afford to design a completely different concept of gearbox yet again. Barrichello said that the gearbox was the least of their problems, so expect to see it again. Better to spend the money on aerodynamics. Also I would like to see that gearbox with a non flawed car.


I would also think the small gearbox, if on the right car ie not a dog, would be an advantage due to packaging etc.

So for the FW34 the gearbox should be OK, the Renault engine is more than good enough, and KERS seemed to be good.

#238 tkulla

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 12:24

Let's face it, Nakajima was also a "pay driver" via his Toyota engine deal.

Nobody was up in arms when he was signed, and he has a lesser record than Maldonado.



Nakajima got to drive that 2009 car, which could have snagged a race win early in that season with a bit of luck.

I have a good feeling about 2012 for Williams... and I want Rubens to drive it for some reason.

#239 One

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 13:48

I doubt the team can afford to design a completely different concept of gearbox yet again. Barrichello said that the gearbox was the least of their problems, so expect to see it again. Better to spend the money on aerodynamics. Also I would like to see that gearbox with a non flawed car.


Gea box and basic set up for the rear suspension was the first thing that I had in my mind to be carried to 34. Hopefully it will be a reliable and a faster car than 33.
On its aero front I am curious who they shape the nose. 33 had very short nose. WOuld it be a lower one, ant eater ?

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#240 Anderis

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 14:24

Williams NEED a solid 2012 or it could be their last...

2012 won't be last Williams's season in F1, I'm sure. According to official financial results from 2011, they've no longer serious problems with debt and they've even increased thier incomes to the previous year although they've lost 6 significant sponsors after 2010.
They are doing well outside of F1 thanks to their WHP company and Williams Technology Centre in Qatar. They've already signed some deals in Qatar, not really connected to F1, but obviously it will help to secure their F1 future as well. :smoking:

Williams is legendary name, as same as Lotus. We've even had two teams fighting for Lotus name in 2011, so I'm sure that Williams name won't dissapear as well. And Frank won't sell his team to anybody as long as he lives. There is no need, though, the team isn't struggling financially as much as some people still suggest, they're far from being bankrupt.

#241 One

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 10:26

Sounds great.

What will be the basi car shape of the 2012?

1. Lower front nose.
2. Lower rear end.
3. More undercut side pods (?)
4. Exhaust chimney or flat cut that still influence diffuser?
5. Center Wing on side pods?
6. ...

#242 King Six

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 11:36

Ok guys, Renault has snapped up Growjohn. Which means only one thing. Barrichello or Sutil? Or are Williams desperate enough to go for Maldonado and Petrov.

#243 DanardiF1

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 11:41

Ok guys, Renault has snapped up Growjohn. Which means only one thing. Barrichello or Sutil? Or are Williams desperate enough to go for Maldonado and Petrov.


Sutil comes with some money, so I'd expect him to be taken on.

#244 One

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 11:57

Ok guys, Renault has snapped up Growjohn. Which means only one thing. Barrichello or Sutil? Or are Williams desperate enough to go for Maldonado and Petrov.


This sounds like a good idea. to race Sutil and Rubens. s there any news on PDVSA investigation?

#245 Little Leaf

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 12:37

This sounds like a good idea. to race Sutil and Rubens. s there any news on PDVSA investigation?


He wrote Sutil OR Rubens. Maldonado has been confirmed already

I expect it to be Sutil

#246 One

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 12:47

He wrote Sutil OR Rubens. Maldonado has been confirmed already

I expect it to be Sutil


IC

How about Petrov? Sutil is a quicker one, you you assume? Reno 2011 was a sh1t car tho...

#247 Little Leaf

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 13:02

IC

How about Petrov? Sutil is a quicker one, you you assume? Reno 2011 was a sh1t car tho...


Petrov hasn't impressed me to be honest. I would take Rubens, but if he can't find any money then I would choose Sutil

Glock would be good but it isn't going to happen

#248 Earthling

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 13:15

How about Williams take Hamilton, and Sutil can go to the Merc backed McLaren...
Rubens can.. oh wait! :drunk:

#249 One

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 13:25

How about Williams take Hamilton, and Sutil can go to the Merc backed McLaren...
Rubens can.. oh wait! :drunk:

Troll!

#250 Earthling

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 13:30

Rubens can go back to Ferrari since he doesnt need any sponsorship money, and Massa can retire if he cant get a drive without getting sponsors!