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Williams 2012 - FW34 Renault


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#3301 Anderis

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 14:52

I didn't read it anywhere. To read something as ... is an expression used in English.

Sorry, I'm not a native English speaker, as you probably realised. :) I'll try to remember this.

Senna hasn't been like that at any other time this season, so I think the car must have been particularly good.

Senna isn't driver who is consistent enough to be any benchmark. He has proven at Lotus that his pace fluctuates. He has proven at Williams that his pace fluctuates compared to Maldonado. If anything, I would rather consider Pastor as a driver who is consistently quick in qualifying. Since the problem with too litle DRS effect is solved at Williams (since Spain), Maldonado didn't really lack qualifying speed at any occasion.
But well, there are no evidence and it's impossible to prove if my or your version is correct. But I remember Williams saying after Hungary that it was Senna better than usual than the car better than usual.

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#3302 Sergino

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 17:16

What I read Hungary as was Senna having a normal weekend for him but Maldonado underperforming in qualifying compared to where he normally is. Therefore if Senna could qualify 8th or 9th the car must have been pretty good.



Yeah, that is what I don't really understand and it has to be deep in the details. And this is that when Senna looked comfortable he looked like this from the first minute. In Hungary he missed the FP1 again and he was still right up the pace from FP2. It is certainly not him going spot on with the setup from the start of the weekend and he is not seem to be able to change it either during the whole weekend.

I have one suspicion but it sounds so naive or simple that I hardly want to confess it but still: from several aero shots it seemed to me that Senna chooses the racing lines simply wrong. In chicanes or esses he tends to turn in later in turn 1 and misses the apex of turn 2 in the same combination of turns if you know what I mean. I realized that many times on Sunday when he was chased by Vettel or Webber or Di Resta. He completely screwed up the racing lines many times and it looked so obvious that sometimes he seemed he was like a rookie in a feeder series. And I can recall races where he did the same at some other tracks earlier in the year and even last year, these clearly cost him tenths of seconds. Anybody else noticed that as well or it just me or is this common with everybody else and I just focused on Bruno this time?

Another UFO for me PM's Q3 time, where the hell did he pull it from?

Edited by Sergino, 04 September 2012 - 19:04.


#3303 Disgrace

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 17:25

That probably has some weight as I have a similar impression when watching him; Senna quite often looks out of control when he drives and still he is slow.

#3304 Barri

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 23:24

Everytime Maldonado is chasing another car, I feel bad for the guy in front. It's Kamikase style! No Mercy!
I agree on the race ban given to Grosjean. But, at the same time, I think its
unfair to him when Maldonado, deliberately, throws his car at Perez, (Monaco GP) and gets a softer penalty.
Especially when the guy crashes into someone in every race.
PDVSA boys have a huge influence on decision making here apparently. ;)

#3305 Petroltorque

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 05:55

Everytime Maldonado is chasing another car, I feel bad for the guy in front. It's Kamikase style! No Mercy!
I agree on the race ban given to Grosjean. But, at the same time, I think its
unfair to him when Maldonado, deliberately, throws his car at Perez, (Monaco GP) and gets a softer penalty.
Especially when the guy crashes into someone in every race.
PDVSA boys have a huge influence on decision making here apparently. ;)

I do not Think PDVSA have any influence on the decisions of the Stewards. The quantity of sponsorship will influence decisions at Williams. Maldonado's card has been marked by the stewards this season and any further transgression will result in a ban for him as well. Grosjean took out the title leader and one of his main competitors in one swoop.

#3306 joora

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 07:51

I do not Think PDVSA have any influence on the decisions of the Stewards. The quantity of sponsorship will influence decisions at Williams. Maldonado's card has been marked by the stewards this season and any further transgression will result in a ban for him as well. Grosjean took out the title leader and one of his main competitors in one swoop.


Not just that, he is being handled penalties for all incidents, no matter how small they are, so he will have to think hard if he wants to follow that path.

#3307 sofarapartguy

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 08:02

I have one suspicion but it sounds so naive or simple that I hardly want to confess it but still: from several aero shots it seemed to me that Senna chooses the racing lines simply wrong.


Last year he was completely wrong in Lesmo1 every single lap - turning too early on the apex like it as a simple 90 degree corner. I was pissed off with that as he was chasing I think STR for a hell of the time, he was much faster and managed to overtake only by the end of the race - total frustration.



#3308 spinster

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 08:12

Raikkonen is not a top driver and has been wasting the fastest car on the grid, and Williams would not be able to afford Hamilton. Maldonado and Bottas for 2013.


no kimi is just crap for you :wave:

and what on earth is the lotus being the fastest car? no they are not! Mclaren and RBR is

#3309 Anderis

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 09:17

I didn't read it anywhere. To read something as ... is an expression used in English. Again, Senna hasn't been like that at any other time this season, so I think the car must have been particularly good.

I've forgotten to add, that Williams introduced for Hungary new front brakes cooling system, which not necessarily made the car faster, but more suited for Senna's driving style. Bruno said that he was very pleased with that change and he was asking for it earlier. Maybe that's the answer?

#3310 joora

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 09:43

I've forgotten to add, that Williams introduced for Hungary new front brakes cooling system, which not necessarily made the car faster, but more suited for Senna's driving style. Bruno said that he was very pleased with that change and he was asking for it earlier. Maybe that's the answer?


So why was he so weak last weekend?


#3311 Anderis

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 09:53

I don't know. He is known for that his pace fluctuates. Perhaps he just didn't perform again.
+ He had damaged aero on his last run during Q2.
+ He had a slow puncture late in the race.

#3312 Little Leaf

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 07:48

What are the odds on Pastor having an incident free weekend?

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19508127

#3313 joora

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 09:19

What are the odds on Pastor having an incident free weekend?

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19508127


I would say 15%

#3314 Lord Snooty

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:10

What are the odds on Pastor having an incident free weekend?

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19508127



I think its one of those binary things, so 50/50. If he gets away ok and can run at a reasonable pace, he may have a trouble free run. If he gets compromised at the start and is out of position trying to make up places, disaster is inevitable!

#3315 Little Leaf

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:27

I think its one of those binary things, so 50/50. If he gets away ok and can run at a reasonable pace, he may have a trouble free run. If he gets compromised at the start and is out of position trying to make up places, disaster is inevitable!


Well according to this article he wants to take a different approach to this race

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/102293

Maybe he means not crashing!

#3316 roadie

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:49

The car seemed to be set up for fairly high downforce levels from what I quickly saw from P1 coverage compared to some other cars.

#3317 Lord Snooty

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 11:05

Ah. Yes. Just re-read my earlier note and realised that Pastor will, of course, be out of position from the start due to his grid penalties. Add that to his bullish statement that "he can recover from grid penalties", which rather implies he's going to go for it and try to hustle his way up to a point scoring position, I fear disaster is inevitable.... so I'll amend my odds to 100% certain of some form of coming together during the race.

#3318 Little Leaf

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 11:09

Ah. Yes. Just re-read my earlier note and realised that Pastor will, of course, be out of position from the start due to his grid penalties. Add that to his bullish statement that "he can recover from grid penalties", which rather implies he's going to go for it and try to hustle his way up to a point scoring position, I fear disaster is inevitable.... so I'll amend my odds to 100% certain of some form of coming together during the race.


Doesn't sound like Pastor

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#3319 Petroltorque

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 12:35

Therein lies the problem. If Maldonado thinks he can suddenly make up for a 10 place penalty, then let's write-off the race now. Racing in the pack requires a circumspect approach. He might despatch slower runners quickly but even that has a risk, clash with Glock being a prime example. Once he reaches mid pack he must accept a bide your time approach rather than muscling past.

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#3320 TFLB

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 14:56

no kimi is just crap for you :wave:

and what on earth is the lotus being the fastest car? no they are not! Mclaren and RBR is

The majority of people in the English-speaking media have been saying that on the whole, the Lotus has been the fastest or equal-fastest car throughout this season. Raikkonen and Grosjean have been wasting it. Certainly, it's a much better car than the Williams, which is why I find all the 'Raikkonen would be fighting for the world championship in a Williams' crap just that - crap.

#3321 Little Leaf

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 10:32

Bruno bang on Pastors pace in final practice

Hopefully he can perform in qualy and get in the top 10

#3322 Anderis

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 10:47

I remember several times this season when Bruno was showing better pace than Pastor during practise sessions and then being outqualified by him by 0,4-1 secs.

I think the difference between them is that Pastor usually does very good laps when he is under pressure of good qualifying result, he is often nowhere during qualifying session and then doing 3rd or so time on his very last lap, opposed to Bruno, who is often clearly below what he is capable of when he is under pressure of doing one good lap time. Even in Hungary, his best weekend so far at Williams in terms of one lap speed, he seemed to be capable of more than 9th on pure speed but couldn't put great lap together when it was important.

We will see what is going to happen in qualifying. In fact, Bruno is yet to outpace Pastor in any single qualifying session. He was only securing better grid positions so far if Pastor had a mechanical failure, penalty or crashed into the wall in Canada.

#3323 Sergino

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:08

I remember several times this season when Bruno was showing better pace than Pastor during practise sessions



I don't think it happened too often though...

#3324 Anderis

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:36

Hungary and Valencia come to my mind.

#3325 roadie

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:42

With the penalties, I'm fully expecting the cars to start something like 15th and 23rd. Anything better will be a bonus!

#3326 TFLB

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 11:50

Interesting that both (I think) drivers set their best times on the hard tyre this morning.

#3327 Latos

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 12:25

any appreciation for what Bruno did year ago when he was in the same position as Jarome?

#3328 TFLB

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 13:18

any appreciation for what Bruno did year ago when he was in the same position as Jarome?

No not really, he had already done much more mileage in the car and was up against a poor driver in Petrov.

#3329 Myrvold

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 15:37

With the penalties, I'm fully expecting the cars to start something like 15th and 23rd. Anything better will be a bonus!


A tiny tiny bonus then? Good guess btw.

#3330 GustavoB

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 15:45

Well,

another frustrating qualifying to see. What the hell, when Bruno will out qualify Pastor? It will ever happen? :down:
Both where even matched until the last run, when Pastor improved and Bruno didn't.
0.24 sec on a circuit like Monza is a big difference... it's hard to be a brazilian watching F1 nowadays. :|

I think the worst part will be the start tomorrow. From 13th and 22th I will not be surprised if both drivers are out in the first corner and to get worst Force India cars are flying. Looking to see sparks between Pastor and Hulk tomorrow.

cheers



#3331 glorius&victorius

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 15:53

TWO CLOWNS IN THE CAR!

#3332 GustavoB

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 16:01

hahahhha :rotfl:

#3333 TFLB

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 16:32

TWO CLOWNS IN THE CAR!

EVEN MORE CLOWNS ON THIS FORUM!

#3334 roadie

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 09:57

Do we think the strategists will start the cars on the hard tyre for a long stint before moving to the option?

#3335 Anderis

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 10:47

Maldonado said their pace looks better on hard tyres, so I think it's quite likely.

#3336 Little Leaf

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 11:16

It will count for nothing which tyres they are on if they get involved in any first corner/lap incidents.

Hopefully they can keep it clean and give themselves half a chance of snatching some points.

#3337 TFLB

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 11:34

Maybe start on the mediums, hope for a safety car on the first lap then immediately change onto the hards for the rest of the race?

#3338 Anderis

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 11:49

Pirellis are no Bridgestones. I doubt very much that you can be fast enough throughout the race doing 50 laps on one set of tyres.

#3339 The Jim Clark Five

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 12:34

Posted Image

a cheap and cheerful photoshop

Edited by The Jim Clark Five, 09 September 2012 - 12:34.


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#3340 mdaclarke

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 13:37

What happened to Ricciardo? Senna was over 2 seconds behind on the final lap and overtook him! Well done Senna!!!

#3341 TFLB

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 14:16

Maldonado did a whole weekend without hitting anyone, crashing or doing anything stupid! :eek: Good drive in the race as well.

#3342 BetaVersion

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 14:37

Maldonado did a whole weekend without hitting anyone, crashing or doing anything stupid! :eek: Good drive in the race as well.

:up:

If it wasn't for Pastor, Williams would be in same league was Force India. It was him who could put the car where it belonged, in some track which suited it.

But the WCC game is over for Williams. They won't get caught by FI and neither get Sauber/Mercedes

#3343 TheWilliamzer

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 14:41

Pastor was wise today, Senna in the other hand had some bangs.

#3344 GustavoB

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 14:51

:up:

If it wasn't for Pastor, Williams would be in same league was Force India. It was him who could put the car where it belonged, in some track which suited it.

But the WCC game is over for Williams. They won't get caught by FI and neither get Sauber/Mercedes

I'm sorry if I misunderstood, but yes the WCC seems to be lost for Williams because they won't catch Sauber and it seems that they wont catch Force India too.
FI was always good in Spa and Monza, hope that their speed will drop a little bit in the next races.




#3345 marcoferrari

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 15:05

Maldonado did a whole weekend without hitting anyone, crashing or doing anything stupid! :eek: Good drive in the race as well.


Yes, but still brought home ZERO points...

#3346 Flyhigh

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 15:11

Lol, some people saying this is a top car, give me a break. If one thing that Maldonado doesn't lack is speed, he was faster in qualy than Barrichello in his debut season last year, that should tell you something. In this year, his second season which should make him even faster at his best his able to qualy this car just inside top 10. So no, this car is not top in pace, it is at best a car to be able to consistently score points with. Maldonado is just an outstanding inconsistent race driver and Senna has been struggling to qualy in the top 10, which in turn make his races more difficult. Senna has shown to be much more consistent in races than Maldonado, I don't care about looking at the stats, but Senna handily out races Maldonado, while Maldonado handily out qualy Senna. The issue is for the drivers to find this sweetspot of qualy well and being consistent on races. Then this car would belong in the 6-10 position. Not in the top 5 though, as some want to make it seems.

Edited by Flyhigh, 09 September 2012 - 15:14.


#3347 911

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 15:14

Senna showed some decent pace up until his incident w/ Diresta. I wonder if his car sustained some minor damage after that because that's when he seemed to drop off a bit. I do think Williams left him out too long on his first stint. IMO, he would have been better off pitting right when Massa & gang caught up to him. Anyway, glad to see him get into the points on the last lap.

Pastor seemed to show some pace during the race and good to see him finish a relatively clean race into 11th.

#3348 marcoferrari

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 15:15

Lol, some people saying this is a top car, give me a break. If one thing that Maldonado doesn't lack is speed, he was faster than Barrichello in his debut season last year, that should tell you something. In this year, his second season which should make him even faster at his best his able to qualy this car, barely in the top 10. So no, this car is not top in pace, it is at best a car to be able to consistently score points with. Maldonado is just outstanding inconsistently as a driver and Senna has been struggling to qualy in the top 10, which in turn make the races more difficult. Senna has shown to be much more consistent in races than Maldonado, I don't care about looking at the stats, but Senna handily out races Maldonado, while Maldonado handily out qualy Senna. The issue is for the drivers to find this sweetspot of qualy well and being consistent on races. Then this car would belong in the 6-10 position. Not in the top 5 though, as some want to make it seems.


Not exactly... Their quali battle finished 9:9...  ;)

#3349 GustavoB

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 15:39

Senna showed some decent pace up until his incident w/ Diresta. I wonder if his car sustained some minor damage after that because that's when he seemed to drop off a bit. I do think Williams left him out too long on his first stint. IMO, he would have been better off pitting right when Massa & gang caught up to him. Anyway, glad to see him get into the points on the last lap.

Pastor seemed to show some pace during the race and good to see him finish a relatively clean race into 11th.


That's 100% correct. I had the same tought at that time, Senna had Massa, Alonso and Vettel between him and Ricciardo. Ricciardo pitted and Senna stayed 3 laps more. After his pit he came back behind Ricciardo. We are not experts but everyone except william's strategist could see that. This is the second time they messed up with the strategy with Senna this year. It seems that they have a plan before the race and they cannot change it... :down:

#3350 Francesc

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 15:45

That's 100% correct. I had the same tought at that time, Senna had Massa, Alonso and Vettel between him and Ricciardo. Ricciardo pitted and Senna stayed 3 laps more. After his pit he came back behind Ricciardo. We are not experts but everyone except william's strategist could see that. This is the second time they messed up with the strategy with Senna this year. It seems that they have a plan before the race and they cannot change it... :down:


Senna and Ricciardo pitted on the same lap, only that the Toro Rosso pitstop was over 1 second faster than Williams. Unacceptable.

Edited by Francesc, 09 September 2012 - 15:46.