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Williams 2012 - FW34 Renault


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#3501 PayasYouRace

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 10:18

I wouldn't get too worked up over the WCC money. They produced this year's car after finishing 9th last year. This year they'll finish higher barring a super turnaround from Toro Rosso.

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#3502 Anderis

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 11:25

I wouldn't get too worked up over the WCC money. They produced this year's car after finishing 9th last year. This year they'll finish higher barring a super turnaround from Toro Rosso.

They produced this year's car after finishing 9th last year, but they needed to take Senna and his sponsors. If they had finished 6th last year, they wouldn't need to do that, and they would probably have taken better driver. That would lead to better results this year, Force India would be no threat, and Williams would fight with Sauber for 6th or even with Mercedes for 5th. And they would have a bit more money to be competitive in 2013 thanks to that.

As I said earlier, one year you can finish low in WCC and you might be able to compensate this. But if you finish low in WCC 5 years in row, you lose so much money that it will probably affect your performances in the next 5 years, as F1 is still very much about who have the most money. (first you need money, only then you can use this properly or not) :|

This year they'll finish at least 1 position higher than last year, and with expanding their businees in Qatar Technology Centre and WHP and with one off payment for signing Concorde Agreement, they will be able to drop Senna and his sponsors and keep current level of competitiveness. But if they would've finished 6th in WCC last year, they could hire better driver for 2012 and place themselves in 5th or 6th in WCC instead of 7th or 8th. That would give them additional $7 or 8 million compared to current situation and they would be not only able to keep current level, but even increase it for 2013. And who knows, that could mean another improvement in WCC compared to this what will actually happen, and another money. Not to mention sponsorship interest.

I think they're still paying the price for not capitalising the potential of their 2009 car. They didn't develop 2008 car properly due to being focused on 2009 car. That's why they lost their first money for WCC standings in 2008. That would be okay, but in 2009 they had the car that was capable of finishing 3rd in WCC but due to Nakajima's poor performances, series of poor race strategies and pit stops they've finished 7th. That was probably worth at least $15 million in itself (if not more), but it lead to the further consequences. They had chosen Cosworth for next two years. With more money for 2009 standings I assume they would've had chosen more competitve engine supplier. In 2010 they had another mediocre season, and it was a merit of Cosworth engines in big part. And due to that, they have lost massive amount of sponsorship after 2010 (RBS, Philips, AirAisia, Accenture, Hell, just in one year) without replacing it. Then 2011 was even more poor due to Cosworth and not being able to make EBD work properly.
With success in 2009, it could look much more different and who knows if Williams wouldn't be consistently close to frontrunners, fighting for 3rd-5th in WCC year by year. If they had chosen more competitive engine supplier after 2009 and if they hadn't lost that big part of their sponsorship without replacing it after 2010, they probably would have been finishing higher in WCC each year and get more money each year and they could increase their competitiveness in long-term.

#3503 PayasYouRace

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 11:57

You're exaggerating the impact of the continued WCC placings. I'm not saying it's not a factor, but this year shows that you can build on a poor year. This year's problems have been less about the money and more about people problems, mainly down to reshaping the team and making mistakes. Money gets you laptime but it doesn't fix team mistakes. The car is competitive and is a great building block for next year.

#3504 Anderis

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 15:29

What you write is true but I still insist Williams is suffering with compromise options like Cosworth engines and Bruno as a racing driver due to underperforming in WCC and that's causing that underperforming is continued. And while having more money due to better WCC standings doesn't guarantee much in itself, it can boost your performance in long term when it's used in right way.

But changing topic:
It looks like Williams might be interested in Frijns taking a test driver role in the team for 2013:
http://www.onestopst...r - report.html

If it's true, it looks like Bottas replacing Senna is already a done deal. I would be glad if Frijns would have joined Williams. His WSbR results are impressive. It would be a comfortable situation for the team. If Maldonado or Bottas underperforms, one of them may be replaced by Frijns in 2014/2015. If one of them shines and ends up in a bigger team, Williams have potentially good replacement.

#3505 PayasYouRace

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 15:42

I was taking Bottas replacing Senna as a done deal in March :cool:

It's usually good to have a talented youngster waiting in the wings. Puts pressure on the race drivers. If they turn out to be quick, you get a strong driver on the cheap. If they turn out to be slow, then there's the next one.

#3506 Anderis

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 16:07

I was taking Bottas replacing Senna as a done deal in March :cool:

I think there was actually such an intention when Senna was signed.

But I'm sure the deal wasn't done such early. They needed to wait some races and evaluate him. If he would have been found out as a much better driver than expected, I'm sure they would keep him with all his sponsors.

#3507 Sergino

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 17:07

I was taking Bottas replacing Senna as a done deal in March :cool:

It's usually good to have a talented youngster waiting in the wings. Puts pressure on the race drivers. If they turn out to be quick, you get a strong driver on the cheap. If they turn out to be slow, then there's the next one.



it is not that easy to decide on how much credit would you give to an FP1 performance. swapping drivers year by year is a no brainer. the problem is that the supply from decent youngsters is effin huge, but it takes time to settle. Usually the second year proves to be the decisive year on how good a certain driver is in reality. sometimes it takes more...and it is not just about talent, but it can happen that there is simply no chemistry between the driver and the team, and it does not mean that that driver is crap.

#3508 PayasYouRace

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 17:14

it is not that easy to decide on how much credit would you give to an FP1 performance. swapping drivers year by year is a no brainer. the problem is that the supply from decent youngsters is effin huge, but it takes time to settle. Usually the second year proves to be the decisive year on how good a certain driver is in reality. sometimes it takes more...and it is not just about talent, but it can happen that there is simply no chemistry between the driver and the team, and it does not mean that that driver is crap.


For clarity, I was not talking about doing it on a yearly basis, and I wasn't talking about FP1 performance but race performance.

#3509 Lord Snooty

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 08:58

Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but according to Ted Kravitz, Senna's first gear stopped working, and then he had KERS issues to the point where he got a radio message telling him NOT to touch the car and the ground at the same time due to risk of electrocution...



Also sounds like Bruno ended up with burns on his back after the race; sounds like he had a fairly sick car.


From the team's Sing review
"Q. Bruno had some burn marks on his back after the race; have you worked out what caused them?
MG. We have a good idea but are still investigating just to make sure that we have covered all potential causes."

http://www.williamsf.../news/view/2254

#3510 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 14:27

You lot sound like we're at Interlagos already...

#3511 midgrid

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 18:56

But changing topic:
It looks like Williams might be interested in Frijns taking a test driver role in the team for 2013:
http://www.onestopst...r - report.html

If it's true, it looks like Bottas replacing Senna is already a done deal. I would be glad if Frijns would have joined Williams. His WSbR results are impressive. It would be a comfortable situation for the team. If Maldonado or Bottas underperforms, one of them may be replaced by Frijns in 2014/2015. If one of them shines and ends up in a bigger team, Williams have potentially good replacement.


Frijns would be an excellent choice for either Williams or Sauber (the other team mentioned in the article). I'm glad to see that he's in demand. Bad news for Senna of course, but sadly I don't think he's done enough to earn another season with Williams.


#3512 Pilla

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 21:30

What you write is true but I still insist Williams is suffering with compromise options like Cosworth engines and Bruno as a racing driver due to underperforming in WCC and that's causing that underperforming is continued. And while having more money due to better WCC standings doesn't guarantee much in itself, it can boost your performance in long term when it's used in right way.

But changing topic:
It looks like Williams might be interested in Frijns taking a test driver role in the team for 2013:
http://www.onestopst...r - report.html

If it's true, it looks like Bottas replacing Senna is already a done deal. I would be glad if Frijns would have joined Williams. His WSbR results are impressive. It would be a comfortable situation for the team. If Maldonado or Bottas underperforms, one of them may be replaced by Frijns in 2014/2015. If one of them shines and ends up in a bigger team, Williams have potentially good replacement.


Bottas has said before that he would only take a year off of racing, and that if he didn't get an F1 drive in 2013 he would be looking to other series like GP2.

#3513 ViMaMo

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 06:08

I'd hate to see the same line up next year, Bruno needs to go, Pastor is fast but hope he can get some serious points in the last 6 races.

Edited by ViMaMo, 27 September 2012 - 06:09.


#3514 Anderis

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 06:48

Bottas has said before that he would only take a year off of racing, and that if he didn't get an F1 drive in 2013 he would be looking to other series like GP2.

But I assume he would stay as a Williams' reserve driver if couldn't find a racing seat elsewhere in F1. He could go to WSbR (AFAIR he considered this option even more than GP2) and still be available for the team on racing weekends, as Bianchi this year. I don't think Williams would need to hire another big talent as a test driver in this case. And I think Frijns wouldn't even be interested in joining Williams if Bottas would be still waiting here for his chance in the future. That would mean Frijns would be the second young driver in Williams' pecking order while he could be clear number one young driver at many other teams. I think he would chose the second option.

#3515 Mandzipop

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 08:04

Williams just tweeted

To confirm, Bruno's burns were due to a wiring loom seal coming loose in the seat allowing heat from back of car to escape-not KERS related.


#3516 Little Leaf

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 08:30

But I assume he would stay as a Williams' reserve driver if couldn't find a racing seat elsewhere in F1. He could go to WSbR (AFAIR he considered this option even more than GP2) and still be available for the team on racing weekends, as Bianchi this year. I don't think Williams would need to hire another big talent as a test driver in this case. And I think Frijns wouldn't even be interested in joining Williams if Bottas would be still waiting here for his chance in the future. That would mean Frijns would be the second young driver in Williams' pecking order while he could be clear number one young driver at many other teams. I think he would chose the second option.


There is no way on earth that Senna will be kept on at his current level of performance. Shame to say that but that's the bottom line.

So if Bottas doesn't get the seat (I strongly think he will) it will be because they need another pay driver. There are better pay drivers about than Senna at the moment.

#3517 SPBHM

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 08:42

is it right to post this here?

a nice video about the FW14B and Bottas driving it (a little)


#3518 PayasYouRace

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 09:46

is it right to post this here?

a nice video about the FW14B and Bottas driving it (a little)


That's great. :up:

#3519 Lord Snooty

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 16:08

is it right to post this here?

a nice video about the FW14B and Bottas driving it (a little)



Nice video; pity about random music over the some of the interviews but good to see both the FW14B again and Bottas in a championship winning Williams... :cool:

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#3520 Vesuvius

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 16:45

Mark Gillan had some nice words about Bottas: Next flying finn

#3521 Pilla

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 23:21

There is no way on earth that Senna will be kept on at his current level of performance. Shame to say that but that's the bottom line.

So if Bottas doesn't get the seat (I strongly think he will) it will be because they need another pay driver. There are better pay drivers about than Senna at the moment.


I wonder if they wait to see if Moldanado starts to get some consistancy towards the end of the year, there is no reason to think that he is gaining in maturity with experience, last race accepted he seems to be getting worse.

Bottas whilst undoubtedly talented would only be in his first year in F1, surely Williams would be better going for someone that can score points, Alguesuari, Massa, even Schumacher. If they were replacing Moldanado and Senna I would say get Bottas and someone that can score points, but is Bottas and Moldanado a good mix?

Edited by Pilla, 03 October 2012 - 23:22.


#3522 Little Leaf

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:21

I wonder if they wait to see if Moldanado starts to get some consistancy towards the end of the year, there is no reason to think that he is gaining in maturity with experience, last race accepted he seems to be getting worse.

Bottas whilst undoubtedly talented would only be in his first year in F1, surely Williams would be better going for someone that can score points, Alguesuari, Massa, even Schumacher. If they were replacing Moldanado and Senna I would say get Bottas and someone that can score points, but is Bottas and Moldanado a good mix?


Maldo won't be replaced as he brings too much money and has proved that he has the speed. For all his weaknesses he has won a race this year and put the car in the top 3 in qualy a couple of times. If he carries on as he did at Monza and Singapore ie cleaning up his act then he could become a very good F1 driver.

It's not all about getting Bottas and somebody else who doesn't bring money, that would put the budget instantly around 35 Million down on this year. The reason Senna is in the car at all is that he brings sponsorship (same can be said of Maldo but he is also quick). Unfortunately Senna hasn't backed that up with the speed he needed to show to put himself in with a chance of staying next season.

Unless a miracle happens I expect a Bottas/Maldo pairing for next season

#3523 Little Leaf

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:56

I notice Rubens has had his 2 pennies worth in the last couple of days. Pastor (obviously) tends to disagree with him.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103037

Not sure how many points Williams would have had if Rubens had still been in the team, but in place of Senna they would probably have had more. Not taking into account the fact the shortfall in budget wouldn't have allowed for the same tech team obviously

#3524 madrocker

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 13:05

All things considered, I believe Rubens' remark that Williams should have double its points is not far removed from reality at all. Imagine what could have happened if Maldonado hadn't crashed and got involved in so many stupid and reckless incidents over the course of the season... he's been doing it since race 1, when he threw away a good hunk of points with a minor mistake... a bit more composure would have yielded a lot of points in the long run. Bruno has been too disappointing for me to try and think objectively about it.

EDIT: Realised that if Maldonado finished 5th at Australia he would have scored double the points Williams scored in 2011 at a single race.

Edited by madrocker, 04 October 2012 - 13:10.


#3525 Sanman59

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 15:30

Maldo won't be replaced as he brings too much money and has proved that he has the speed. For all his weaknesses he has won a race this year and put the car in the top 3 in qualy a couple of times. If he carries on as he did at Monza and Singapore ie cleaning up his act then he could become a very good F1 driver.

It's not all about getting Bottas and somebody else who doesn't bring money, that would put the budget instantly around 35 Million down on this year. The reason Senna is in the car at all is that he brings sponsorship (same can be said of Maldo but he is also quick). Unfortunately Senna hasn't backed that up with the speed he needed to show to put himself in with a chance of staying next season.

Unless a miracle happens I expect a Bottas/Maldo pairing for next season



Absolutely spot on. It will be Bottas/Maldo and I for one am excited about the prospect. Both will run at the front and could win more races. Bottas will be a sensation. :love:


Edited by Sanman59, 04 October 2012 - 15:31.


#3526 flavio81

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 15:32

I notice Rubens has had his 2 pennies worth in the last couple of days. Pastor (obviously) tends to disagree with him.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103037

Not sure how many points Williams would have had if Rubens had still been in the team, but in place of Senna they would probably have had more. Not taking into account the fact the shortfall in budget wouldn't have allowed for the same tech team obviously


This time old Rubens is right. He outscored both MAL and HUL by just staying out of trouble on the races. His race pace and qualy pace isn't bad at all either, he outscored all his teammates except Button and an on-form Schumacher.

Yep, Williams would be better with Rubens this year. Perhaps he wouldn't have won any race, but he certainly would have had at least 2 or 3 podiums and scored in most races.

Rubens and Maldo, i'd say; because the superior qualy pace of Maldo can be a benchmark to see how good the updates are working in the car. On qualifying, Maldonado is FAST FAST FAST. Unfortunately that seems to be his only talent.

Edited by flavio81, 04 October 2012 - 15:34.


#3527 Pilla

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 00:11

Maldo won't be replaced as he brings too much money and has proved that he has the speed. For all his weaknesses he has won a race this year and put the car in the top 3 in qualy a couple of times. If he carries on as he did at Monza and Singapore ie cleaning up his act then he could become a very good F1 driver.

It's not all about getting Bottas and somebody else who doesn't bring money, that would put the budget instantly around 35 Million down on this year. The reason Senna is in the car at all is that he brings sponsorship (same can be said of Maldo but he is also quick). Unfortunately Senna hasn't backed that up with the speed he needed to show to put himself in with a chance of staying next season.

Unless a miracle happens I expect a Bottas/Maldo pairing for next season


That was my point - of course they aren't replacing Maldonado so they should be looking for someone who can score points along side him as Maldonado can't. Maldonado and Bottas would be a quick driver who can't finish races and a quick driver without the necersary experience.

Edited by Pilla, 05 October 2012 - 00:15.


#3528 Force Ten

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:38

(Bottas) a quick driver without the necersary experience.

So was Button. You gotta start getting the experience somehow. Watching races on the pitwall isn't giving you all that much.

#3529 Little Leaf

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:39

So was Button. You gotta start getting the experience somehow. Watching races on the pitwall isn't giving you all that much.


Kimi too?

#3530 Force Ten

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:41

Kimi too?

Indeed.

#3531 4L3X

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:53

Now Senna does a good practice, apparently.

#3532 Lord Snooty

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:02

Bizarrely, Maldonado seems to think his seat is under threat... perhaps the Chavez dollars are less secure than originally thought?

#3533 kenny

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:42

Bizarrely, Maldonado seems to think his seat is under threat... perhaps the Chavez dollars are less secure than originally thought?

I think the elections are pretty close in venezuela...

#3534 Little Leaf

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:30

It seems Senna had the fastest sector 3 time in FP2

http://en.mclarenf-1...e...;s=7098&p=3

#3535 4L3X

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 17:22

I think the elections are pretty close in venezuela...


Exactly.

#3536 marcoferrari

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 17:39

This time old Rubens is right. He outscored both MAL and HUL by just staying out of trouble on the races. His race pace and qualy pace isn't bad at all either, he outscored all his teammates except Button and an on-form Schumacher.

Yep, Williams would be better with Rubens this year. Perhaps he wouldn't have won any race, but he certainly would have had at least 2 or 3 podiums and scored in most races.

Rubens and Maldo, i'd say; because the superior qualy pace of Maldo can be a benchmark to see how good the updates are working in the car. On qualifying, Maldonado is FAST FAST FAST. Unfortunately that seems to be his only talent.


Very good post... :up:

#3537 Little Leaf

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:38

Going to be tough to get into Q3 today. Expect Bruno to take up his usual 13th-17th position on the grid (come on Bruno prove me wrong!!!)

#3538 Little Leaf

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 05:24

Come in Bruno, your time is up

:mad:

#3539 Kyo

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 05:29

Bruno was clearly held up, but if he had just accelerated and finished the lap as fast as he could and not almost stop the car to protest he would probably still be ahead... ¬¬

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#3540 mdaclarke

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 18:58

At least Bruno will have 2 sets of new tyres im each compound. I believe that he can score points this weekend.

#3541 Pilla

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 06:28

So was Button. You gotta start getting the experience somehow. Watching races on the pitwall isn't giving you all that much.


Yes its fine getting a rookie, if someone else was scoring points - hopefully Maldonado gets his head together, last race was promising. But on form this season you would want someone solid and predictable to partner Moldanado.

#3542 Little Leaf

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:43

Another clean weekend for Maldo, and points!

#3543 Lord Snooty

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:44

Not the best day at the races for Williams but, given where we were after qually, not a bad drive into some points from Pastor and he was there or there abouts with Hulk. Bruno had a spirited but compromised race which was, sadly, typical of his weekends. Poor qually leaves too much of a hill to climb in the race...

Ah well, on to Korea and lets see what that brings..

:up:

#3544 Little Leaf

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:03

Well first points for Maldo since Spain, and he seems to have taken on board that he needs to keep it clean all weekend.

Sauber are long gone in the constructors now, FI are still catchable

#3545 race addicted

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:05

Great to see them score points again, finally! Their improvement seems a bit more real, now that they've been running convincingly in the top 8 two times on the trot.

#3546 Francesc

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 10:40

Can't understand why Bruno has been given a drive through. If he hit Rosberg was because of the mess that Grosjean caused.

#3547 glorius&victorius

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 13:32

Can't understand why Bruno has been given a drive through. If he hit Rosberg was because of the mess that Grosjean caused.


the rest got through... Bruno Lalli just demonstrated his lack of peripheral vision again.. (like Grosjean)

#3548 Petroltorque

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 14:23

Thank God Grosjean has taken over the role of Bond villain.......

#3549 gio66

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 15:51

Very consistent race for Bruno today.
10 overtakes (none with DRS), 3 times faster on the track and 2 times the second between lap 37 and 44.
18 times faster than Pastor despite the traffic (except the 3rd stint).
DT absurd. It's a shame because it could beat Pastor.

Edited by gio66, 07 October 2012 - 15:51.


#3550 Barri

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 16:01

Can't understand why Bruno has been given a drive through. If he hit Rosberg was because of the mess that Grosjean caused.

I thought Bruno Senna was a victim of Grosjean's mess. When Rosberg was interviwed, he was clearly annoyed with Grosjean. That says it all.

Edited by Barri, 07 October 2012 - 16:02.