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Williams 2012 - FW34 Renault


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#3701 Orn

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 14:59

that thing with maldonado from my perspective is; either let him go all animalistic on the track or go slow and steady by being really really really cautious when approaching another car.

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#3702 Latos

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 15:49

I agree.

He kills himself with the inability to get out of Q2.

There's a difference with how he drives in the actual race versus qualifying. I can't figure it out because most of the time I feel the car is more than capable of going into Q3, but he doesn't seem to be able to find the necessary time to do so.


It's just down to the tyres and his driving style. He is not able to give enough heat into them, and as a operating window is so small, there's a bad qually result.

#3703 PayasYouRace

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 16:22

The car was pretty solid today and both drivers seemed quite evenly matched. Pastor's puncture ruined his race of course. I think Bruno had his best race in F1 so far. He let himself down in qualifying but his race pace and racecraft was good today. It's just a shame that the car has slipped back a bit. I think on a good day they could have both beaten Rosberg and mixed it with the Lotuses and maybe Massa. Red Bull, McLaren and Alonso are too far ahead now.

#3704 Baddoer

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 18:06

I'm curious, not sure if anyone else has noticed this, but I think Maldonado's overall race pace is not as good as was thought earlier in the season. He is a better qualifier than his teammate, but I've not been impressed with how he drives once the actual race is underway. He seems to go backwards once the race starts even if he qualifies in the top 10. Everyone talks about how much better he is than Bruno. In Korea, Bruno almost got past him, then today he finally overtook him with a fantastic overtake. It's just bizarre to me.

Not really, Bruno had fresh tyres at the start, while Maldonado had not such luxury.

Edited by Baddoer, 28 October 2012 - 18:07.


#3705 saudoso

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 21:08

Then I guess he should be saving tires then, because he indeed has 3 points finishes againd 8 from Senna. Hadn't he lucked into a win it would look way, way worse than it looks right now.

#3706 Disgrace

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 21:35

A quite solid weekend pace considered, from Williams. should've had both cars scoring today if only Maldonado had kept his cool.


It was just a racing incident between MAL/KOB. It was similar to Vettel on Karthikeyan at Sepang when Vettel got unnecessarily close and paid for it. The width of the front wings are scandalous (obviously Pastor should be aware of this). I doubt he "lost his cool" in context of his other incidents.

Edited by Disgrace, 28 October 2012 - 21:35.


#3707 Anderis

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 21:39

Hadn't he lucked into a win it would look way, way worse than it looks right now.

He hadn't lucked into a win.

He lost a 3rd or 4th place in Singapore due to a car failure too, not to mention several others incidents, like engine failure in Malaysia, debris damaging his car in Germany, slow puncture in Italy etc.

He has not done good enough over a season overall, but he is still way more valuable than Bruno. It's better to win the race, then crash fighting for 3rd, then qualify 2nd somewhere, then crash again instead of having couple of uninspiring 9ths and 10ths which don't even bring more points overall. It's Pastor who gives the team vast majority of TV exposure. Moreover, Bruno is also quite incident-prone (if you count how many incidents he had throughout the season, it was about as many as Pastor, just not always that spectacular and that obvious for blame) but still overcautious when it comes to overtaking. Today Maldonado basically overtook Kobayashi after 2 (?) laps (OK, they had a contact later, but the overtake was basically done before so it was possible to do it quick), while Senna was running behind him a couple of laps more. Simillar thing in Canada, Maldonado overtook Caterham just after he had caught him, while Senna in the same race spent half of the race being unable to overtake them.

Despite having such a poor season, Maldonado still has scored more points than Senna, which indicates that Bruno's season is even poorer. The problem of Bruno is that he was never looking like going to finish in top5 in any single race, while Pastor had couple of top5 in qualifying, scored a race win, lost one podium due to mistake and other due to a car failure. Some people are writing about Bruno's racecraft being good. I believe it's a matter of impression that there is no team-mate who could keep him honest. He looks not that bad because Pastor is crashing so much. Sauber's drivers have proven several times this season that it's possible to score a top5 result even after poor qualifying. Bruno has never done that. He looks good when it comes to overtaking because his team-mate is crashing and many of you hardly realise due to this that Senna is often overcautious and spends behind slower cars too much time. And If Pastor could avoid 2 or 3 crashes, he would've probably gained more that Bruno if he could qualify better on 2 or 3 occassions. Usually it's easier to reduce the amount of mistakes than to find some speed and this is why many believe that Pastor is better prospect for the future.

I also wonder where is the Pastor from 2011 who was able to outrace Rubens in 4 races in row on demanging tracks: Spa, Monza, Suzuka and Singapore.

#3708 race addicted

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 21:40

It was just a racing incident between MAL/KOB. It was similar to Vettel on Karthikeyan at Sepang when Vettel got unnecessarily close and paid for it. The width of the front wings are scandalous (obviously Pastor should be aware of this). I doubt he "lost his cool" in context of his other incidents.


I think that's just what it is. What we saw with Vettel too, is that they want to be demonstrative towards the driver that has defended rigorously for some laps, and they cut in sharply infront. You end up paying the price for that.

Edited by race addicted, 28 October 2012 - 21:40.


#3709 TheWilliamzer

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 21:41

With what happened to Pastor this year, nobody gives him the benefit of the doubt anymore.

Pastor was steeadily taking his line for the corner while kobayashi was nervously maneuvering trying to defend from bruno.

on a positive note, Bruno improved his throttle control on corner exit.

#3710 Lord Snooty

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 22:36

Slightly off topic but I found this article from the Williams factory interesting. I wonder if this is just a regional thing or if it is a more widespread issue in Europe?

http://www.telegraph...ths-skills.html




p.s.

Out of interest, how did you do with the test? I'll be honest and say I simply can't remember how to manipulate logs and so passed on the 'log' questions but all the others were laughably easy.

Edited by Lord Snooty, 28 October 2012 - 22:40.


#3711 Little Leaf

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 10:56

Looking fairly certain to finish 8th in the constructors now.

If only Senna could qualify a bit better he would have a much bigger chance of scoring some decent points.

I blame the BBC. On Saturday he did his last Q2 lap and they wrote "Senna should comfortably get into Q3 with that..."!!! Is Murray Walker back there at the mo or what??!!

#3712 SamH123

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 11:41

I hope there's a chance of a shock Maldonado quali performance in Abu Dhabi, the track is a bit similar to Singapore right?

Edited by SamH123, 29 October 2012 - 12:12.


#3713 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 10:41

He lost a 3rd or 4th place in Singapore due to a car failure too, not to mention several others incidents, like engine failure in Malaysia, debris damaging his car in Germany, slow puncture in Italy etc.

No he didn't, the safety car had shunted him way down the field to like 7th or 8th before he got the radio call to retire.

When you look at Senna's pace in clear air in the last part of the race it does seem to indicate that the car was capable of 6th or 7th.

#3714 Anderis

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 14:11

No he didn't, the safety car had shunted him way down the field to like 7th or 8th before he got the radio call to retire.

Well, you're right that things had got complicated even before the failure occured.

But Pastor's driving was deserving something like 4th on merit in this race and he has lost it without his fault.

#3715 Baddoer

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 14:17

I hope there's a chance of a shock Maldonado quali performance in Abu Dhabi, the track is a bit similar to Singapore right?

It is but also it is very different. Singapore is very bumpy and demands high ride height while Abu Dhabi is ideally flat and cars are very low. It seems that Williams performs better with high ride height setup.

#3716 Anderis

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 16:00

It seems that Williams performs better with high ride height setup.

Is Barcelona the track where ride height tends to be high?

#3717 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 17:01

Then I guess he should be saving tires then, because he indeed has 3 points finishes againd 8 from Senna. Hadn't he lucked into a win it would look way, way worse than it looks right now.

It's quite frankly ridiculous to accuse Pastor of 'lucking' into a win. Go back and watch the race again.

#3718 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 17:01

Then I guess he should be saving tires then, because he indeed has 3 points finishes againd 8 from Senna. Hadn't he lucked into a win it would look way, way worse than it looks right now.

It's quite frankly ridiculous to accuse Pastor of 'lucking' into a win. Go back and watch the race again.

#3719 GustavoB

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 23:55

It's quite frankly ridiculous to accuse Pastor of 'lucking' into a win. Go back and watch the race again.

:up: :up:

He won fair and square. Maybe one of the best drives of the year!! It's a shame that he can't do it more frequently as Perez seems to do. Mastah are you listening? :p

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#3720 roadie

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:04

I am confident the qualifying result this weekend will be better than last years'!

#3721 Francesc

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:06

I am confident the qualifying result this weekend will be better than last years'!


LOL. It can't be worse!

#3722 TheWilliamzer

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 11:05

I'm sick of the "Take out the win and he'll end up with 8 pts.." comment everywhere...

Take out Seb's or Nando's wins and see then.

#3723 Disgrace

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 15:54

It's not quite the same, Alonso has seven other podium finishes to fall back on. It's simply a primitive way of saying that he isn't consistent which is pretty valid as his next best result is eighth. That obviously would have been improved upon in Singapore but otherwise he has thrown away a majority of the points.

Edited by Disgrace, 01 November 2012 - 15:57.


#3724 Anderis

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 17:42

It's not quite the same, Alonso has seven other podium finishes to fall back on. It's simply a primitive way of saying that he isn't consistent which is pretty valid as his next best result is eighth. That obviously would have been improved upon in Singapore but otherwise he has thrown away a majority of the points.

But is Bruno that much better?
He has significantly more top10 finishes than Pastor, but just the same amount of top8 finishes and less top5 finishes.

I believe this car was capable of top8 finishes in more than half of the races this season so the fact that Bruno could bring some 9th and 10th places doesn't make much difference. It was still underperforming the car and it is still not enough to beat Pastor, who is having his worst season in his recent racing career by some marging, in the overall standings.

#3725 GustavoB

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 17:45

But is Bruno that much better?
He has significantly more top10 finishes than Pastor, but just the same amount of top8 finishes and less top5 finishes.

I believe this car was capable of top8 finishes in more than half of the races this season so the fact that Bruno could bring some 9th and 10th places doesn't make much difference. It was still underperforming the car and it is still not enough to beat Pastor, who is having his worst season in his recent racing career by some marging, in the overall standings.


So, we came to conclusion that both are underperforming. But only one has enough money to stay with a seat in 2013. :lol:

cheers


#3726 Anderis

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 18:01

So, we came to conclusion that both are underperforming. But only one has enough money to stay with a seat in 2013. :lol:

cheers

Pretty much this.

Anyone who claims that either Pastor or Bruno has done enough to keep his seat on merit is cheating himself/herself.

But some suggests that Pastor underperformed even more than Bruno, which is not true. He still has scored more points in the whole season, in the last 5 races as well (in case if somebody would suggest the recent trend is different). He was the one who lost some good point-scoring opportunity due to bad luck (Germany and Singapore). He was the one who has secured far more coverage for the team.
Even if they would bring comparable amount of money, he is the one who should be kept based on 2012.

#3727 Disgrace

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 18:38

But is Bruno that much better?


Absolutely not, in terms of pace the two drivers are worlds apart. With Pastor falling over himself, Senna should be there to pick up those lost points but he only musters up the odd 9th/10th. He has three impressive drives, and even one of those came after he was bailed out by a red flag after crashing into Pastor (Malaysia). Singapore exposed Senna as a driver not of F1 calibre and Bottas should be a shoo-in for 2013.

It's pretty sad as this driver predicament was widely predicted before the start of the season by your average forum mug like myself.

Edited by Disgrace, 01 November 2012 - 18:41.


#3728 joora

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 20:58

Bruno should've been kicked out of the car at the half of the season and Bottas should be driving instead. I bet he would manage to score more points, and he would gain necessary experience for the start of the next season.

As the things are now, Williams will have a unstable (Pastor) and a rookie (Bottas) driver in it's lineup, which is again a recipe for a disaster.

#3729 Tiakumosan

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:15

Great Q3 from Pastor! Wasn't expecting for it, since he was almost out on Q2. :up: :up:

Bruno said he lost kers on Q1, then adjusted something on the breaks and then kers worked again ... but, he always has an excuse, hasn't he?

#3730 PayasYouRace

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:21

Another good starting position of Pastor. Hope he can translate that into good points. :up:

What's with Senna's helmet design?

#3731 Disgrace

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:22

What's with Senna's helmet design?


It's a corporate design on behalf of his personal sponsor, a certain shaving products company.

#3732 Francesc

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:34

Nice to see both cars at the top of the fastest speed charts for a change.

That will help tomorrow.

#3733 SamH123

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:44

If Maldo can stay within 1s of the bulls they better watch out!

#3734 ViMaMo

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:00

Pastor :up:

#3735 Flyhigh

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:12

Maldonado is ridiculously fast, I would bet in qualy he has as much pace as the top 3 contenders, but as fast as he is in qualy he melts like butter in races. Even with this qualy result I wouldn't give more than 25% chance of him scoring points tomorrow which is saying something.

Edited by Flyhigh, 03 November 2012 - 15:14.


#3736 joora

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:42

I'm hoping for another Williams podium finish tomorrow. Pastor seemed more focused (but also more timid) in the last few races, if he manages to grab a podium, Williams have some slim chances of catching FI in the WCC.

I'm also hoping that Bruno will somehow manage to grab a few points tomorrow, but he has oneca again put himself in the worst part of the grid to manage a clean start.

#3737 Petroltorque

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:45

Maldonado is ridiculously fast, I would bet in qualy he has as much pace as the top 3 contenders, but as fast as he is in qualy he melts like butter in races. Even with this qualy result I wouldn't give more than 25% chance of him scoring points tomorrow which is saying something.

I'll take THAT BET! I expect Vettel to give Maldonado a very wide birth.

#3738 Baddoer

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:46

Fingers crossed for the race. Just noticed how ridicuosly fast Maldonado at speed trap, even faster than usual Toro Rosso suspects.

Edited by Baddoer, 03 November 2012 - 15:50.


#3739 Flyhigh

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:52

Pretty much this.

Anyone who claims that either Pastor or Bruno has done enough to keep his seat on merit is cheating himself/herself.

But some suggests that Pastor underperformed even more than Bruno, which is not true. He still has scored more points in the whole season, in the last 5 races as well (in case if somebody would suggest the recent trend is different). He was the one who lost some good point-scoring opportunity due to bad luck (Germany and Singapore). He was the one who has secured far more coverage for the team.
Even if they would bring comparable amount of money, he is the one who should be kept based on 2012.



This comparison is pointless, neither of them deserves to be defended of criticism in comparing with each other, they both have performance holes as drivers. Is very hard to defend Pastor. If I was a team owner, I would think twice in signing him again without the hard cash. He sure has qualy pace, but has shown again and again to be off the map sub par on race day. This is not just this year, we have seen this last year. He was out qualifying Barrichello, a very good qualifier himself, on his debut season, but also melting away on race day. You can talk about the old saying is easier to fix consistency than pace, but I haven't seen any parallels to the disparity that Pastor shows between Saturday and Sunday in F1. I can remember fast drivers with issues of consistency such as Trulli, Frentzen, Villenueve, Alesi etc. But they are not even close from being the case of Pastor. Like I mention, you can put him in the top 5 on Saturday and still wouldn't give him great chances of scoring points on Sunday.

Bruno has shown mediocre pace and race results. There is no defending him of criticism, but if you can put Pastor in a good light talking about the coverage, you can sure see that Bruno has had great challenges. He is dealing with an outstanding qualifier of a team mate who would probably out qualified the majority of the field and this is hard on a driver's mentality. And in his first full season he has had to miss almost all FP1, which for a driver still adapting and with a blindly fast team mate is costly.

Edited by Flyhigh, 04 November 2012 - 02:03.


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#3740 Petroltorque

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:07

I think one can put Maldonado's drop off in race pace last year down to the apalling FW33 and it's predisposition to destroy it's tyres. In Maldonado's defence his race craft is improving and he's managed to keep out trouble recently.

Edited by Petroltorque, 03 November 2012 - 16:08.


#3741 turssi

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:43

Both Pastor and FW34 are fast and handle well on tracks like this. I say it's time for the 2nd win of the season!

#3742 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 17:14

Barrichello had a brilliant race here last year. Poor effort from Senna again

#3743 Vesuvius

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 19:36

Why do they have slow Senna on the other car...Bottas had similar pace with Maldonado friday, can't wait to see Senna away from Williams seat, he is wasting it.

#3744 Anderis

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 19:54

Why do they have slow Senna on the other car

Because after disastrous 2011, they needed money last winter to make the car as good as it is. And they can't just fire him in mid-season because they would lose the money. But it's likely they are able to fix their budget for 2013 in this way that Senna's sponsors will be no longer needed.

#3745 paulogman

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 20:47

maldonado starting from third and on a mission!
could be awesome or he goes out in a blaze of glory! lol

#3746 Petroltorque

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 20:59

Because after disastrous 2011, they needed money last winter to make the car as good as it is. And they can't just fire him in mid-season because they would lose the money. But it's likely they are able to fix their budget for 2013 in this way that Senna's sponsors will be no longer needed.

Anderis, save bandwith, don't feed the troll. The don't appreciate that Williams needed money to exorcise the FW33,

#3747 g1n

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 21:17

well if you want to know who is a street circuit specialist, he is it.

#3748 Disgrace

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 21:18

Monaco and Singapore are street circuits. Abu Dhabi and Valencia are walled contemporary circuits. Maldonado has been plenty quick elsewhere.

#3749 g1n

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 21:41

Monaco and Singapore are street circuits. Abu Dhabi and Valencia are walled contemporary circuits. Maldonado has been plenty quick elsewhere.


nah even people like Brundle, Webber, Davidson describe this track as street circuit, so I will go with what they say. It has characteristics of street circuit rather than if it is actually on real streets.

#3750 Myrvold

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 00:59

Why do they have slow Senna on the other car...Bottas had similar pace with Maldonado friday, can't wait to see Senna away from Williams seat, he is wasting it.


You know what? Senna had similar pace with Maldonado on Friday as well. That's how much Friday-pace counts!