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Williams 2012 - FW34 Renault


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#3751 BoschKurve

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 01:13

I'm probably in the minority on this, but I really question the value of Bottas leapfrogging GP2 right to a seat at Williams. It may not happen, but it seems to be increasingly likely it will.

He hasn't driven in an actual race since the 2011 GP3 season. I can't see any benefit in driving FP1 sessions for most of the season since it's not under race conditions.

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#3752 Flyhigh

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:17

I believe Maldonado undermines Senna while not delivering the goods himself. It is a funny situation for Williams. He makes Senna looks slower than he is in comparison to the rest of the grid due to him being outstanding qualifier, among the very top in my view, giving a impression that this car could belong ahead among P 5-7, problem is he has a hard time showing up on race day and capitalizing on his qualy performances. I do hope he delivers tomorrow, a top 6 finish would be great. But I wouldn;t be surprised if he by the middle of the race is along side Senna again, as its usually the case even when he is starting well ahead.

#3753 Petroltorque

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 06:29

I'm probably in the minority on this, but I really question the value of Bottas leapfrogging GP2 right to a seat at Williams. It may not happen, but it seems to be increasingly likely it will.

He hasn't driven in an actual race since the 2011 GP3 season. I can't see any benefit in driving FP1 sessions for most of the season since it's not under race conditions.

You can't run in GP2 and participate in FP1 sessions. The rules preclude it ergo, I presume Williams believe running in FP1 is better preparation for F1.

#3754 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:47

Makes me laugh seeing Mark Gillan saying they expect a big result from Maldonado, but no mention of Senna. I guess they've just given up on him now.

#3755 joora

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:07

I believe Maldonado undermines Senna while not delivering the goods himself. It is a funny situation for Williams. He makes Senna looks slower than he is in comparison to the rest of the grid due to him being outstanding qualifier, among the very top in my view, giving a impression that this car could belong ahead among P 5-7, problem is he has a hard time showing up on race day and capitalizing on his qualy performances. I do hope he delivers tomorrow, a top 6 finish would be great. But I wouldn;t be surprised if he by the middle of the race is along side Senna again, as its usually the case even when he is starting well ahead.


Senna is undermining himself. No matter how good is Maldo, to be 10+ places on the grid with a same car is a sign of a driver who can't extract the potential of the car (or maybe that Maldonado is BY FAR the best qualifier on the grid, in which case I would love to see of what he would be capable in red bull or mclaren). Maldonado wasn't bad in races, he found himself in positions fighting for podiums on several occasions. His largest problem is performing a clean overtake, but with time and experience that will come too.

I really don't see why people praise senna's race craft since he is also very accident prone, and often finds himself cruising behind significantly slower cars.

#3756 Anderis

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:48

But I wouldn;t be surprised if he by the middle of the race is along side Senna again, as its usually the case even when he is starting well ahead.

Usually? Bullshit.
Let's look at the GPs when there was a significant difference (more than 3 places) in their grid position:
Australia: Bruno was never close to catch Pastor.
Spain: Maldonado won, Bruno couldn't even overtake Caterham before Schumacher crashed into him.
Valencia: Pastor was showing much better pace and he was to catch Bruno around lap 20, despite the fact Bruno was yet to pit, while Maldonado had his first pit stop behind him. Then Bruno crashed with Kobayashi, almost taking out Pastor.
Great Britain: Bruno had enjoyed a good start, but Pastor had been able to maintain the gap before crash with Perez occured.
Germany: Pastor was able to maintain his top6 place as long as he didn't run over debris damaging his car. Bruno crashed with Grosjean on 1st lap.
Belgium: Pastor made 2 mistakes at the start of the race, but Bruno was showing pathetic pace if you include the fact the car was capable of qualifying in top3.
Singapore: Pastor had been set on top4 finish before the SC appeared, ruining his strategy. Then car's failure. Bruno was gaining a bit during the race but no way he was able to catch the frontrunners.
Japan: Pastor managed points finish while Bruno crashed with Rosberg on lap1.
India: Bruno actually managed to catch Pastor due to the fact Pastor got stuck behind Rosberg.

So it's 1 out of 9 races what you call "usually".

+ During the races Maldonado had started from lower grid position than Bruno (Bahrain, Canada), he wipped the floor with Bruno in terms of race pace.

#3757 MustangSally

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:11

I'm probably in the minority on this, but I really question the value of Bottas leapfrogging GP2 right to a seat at Williams. It may not happen, but it seems to be increasingly likely it will.


Fair point, but are there significantly better options than Bottas?

Williams has always been quite good at spotting and assessing junior talent. Montoya was spotted early. Then there's Coulthard and Button and more recently Hulkenberg. Rosberg was a kind of protege. I don't think Bottas is a total gamble. I think it works out more often than not. I can only think of two drivers where they got it wrong in recent times: Zanardi and Pizzonia.

Edited by MustangSally, 04 November 2012 - 11:13.


#3758 Francesc

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:20

Fair point, but are there significantly better options than Bottas?

Williams has always been quite good at spotting and assessing junior talent. Montoya was spotted early. Then there's Coulthard and Button and more recently Hulkenberg. Rosberg was a kind of protege. I don't think Bottas is a total gamble. I think it works out more often than not. I can only think of two drivers where they got it wrong in recent times: Zanardi and Pizzonia.


Pizzonia was very fast, but just in testing without pressure.

#3759 Anderis

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:20

Bottas has finished in top3 overall each full season in all racing series in which he participated. He is one of the best prospects in F1 in recent years.

Sure, not racing in 2012 is not ideal scenario, but Williams know how quick he is able to run compared to Maldonado and Senna in F1 car and they know how quick was Maldonado compared to Barrichello, so it's quite good benchmark. If they know he is quick, I would rather go for him than for a driver like Kovalainen, Kobayashi, Alguersuari etc. If Williams want to have a top-quality driver in the near future, they need to gamble with young drivers and Bottas is good material considering his record in junior racing series and opinion he has in the racing world.

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#3760 mich

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 14:55

Good race of Maldonado!
Why did he stay so long at his 1st stint?
He could keep in front of Perez!

#3761 Flyhigh

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:11

Senna is undermining himself. No matter how good is Maldo, to be 10+ places on the grid with a same car is a sign of a driver who can't extract the potential of the car (or maybe that Maldonado is BY FAR the best qualifier on the grid, in which case I would love to see of what he would be capable in red bull or mclaren). Maldonado wasn't bad in races, he found himself in positions fighting for podiums on several occasions. His largest problem is performing a clean overtake, but with time and experience that will come too.

I really don't see why people praise senna's race craft since he is also very accident prone, and often finds himself cruising behind significantly slower cars.



Well to be fair, you can't use this Qualy only, Senna is not usually 10+ places behind more like 3-5. You would love to see what he is capable of doing at Mclaren or Red Bull? I am sorry to give you some news but there are no points for qualy, unfortunately. If there was, I would put Maldonado in the top 3 in F1. Now in races, 4 Points finishes already counting in more than 15 races is not close to being good enough. Senna is showing to be a good racing driver among the better midfielders in the grid. But he is looking slower on qualies due to Pastor just being an outstanding qualifier.

PS: Good race from both guys today, as expected the gap in the race was much closer, even though Senna went to the back of the grid, finishing less than 10 seconds from Pastor.

#3762 PayasYouRace

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:12

Great to get both cars in the points today. Slightly lucky with the PER/GRO/WEB/DIR incident. I think the team could have called Pastor into the pits a bit earlier too.

#3763 Disgrace

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:13

In a race full of driver errors, both Williams' keep it on the island. :drunk:

Massively overdue great performance from Maldonado.

#3764 Jambo

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:15

Good points today, could have done with being in the pits a little earlier for Pastor, lost a lot of time very quickly. Good pace at the end though.

#3765 PayasYouRace

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:15

Especially with Bruno being the other drivers' punch bag today. Not sure how he kept going after the first corner and Vettel driving into the side of him.

#3766 SamH123

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:19

Gutted Maldonado had no KERS for most of the race
He could have been on the podium at least

#3767 Francesc

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:23

Gutted Maldonado had no KERS for most of the race
He could have been on the podium at least


Big shame, could have made the podium without that problem.

#3768 Jambo

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:25

Didn't know that, would have made a big difference, great finish considering that.

#3769 SamH123

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:29

F1PitRadio2 ‏@F1PitRadio2

"OK, Pastor P5, without the KERS, was great job from your side"

What with the powerful DRS zones he didn't have a hope on the straights.



#3770 Anderis

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:32

It was strange that he was losing battles so easy. He had the biggest maximum speed in qualifying, but in the race some cars were gaining on him massively on straights. No KERS is the answer why this has happened.

Great drive by him considering the circumstances. Good drive by Bruno also. It's a pity they couldn't perform like this whole season, Williams would've been at least 5th in WCC now. :(

#3771 PayasYouRace

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:35

The no KERS thing explains a fair bit. Shame about that.

#3772 Lord Snooty

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:54

Top effort from both drivers and the team! Looks like we may be finishing the season with a better run of results...

#3773 Little Leaf

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:48

So 2 races to go, is it still possible to catch FI? 22 points is a big ask and would require both drivers to perform well.

Not sure how the last 2 tracks are going to suit the car either



#3774 SamH123

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:32

Well Maldonado won in Spain, which is quite fast and sweepy, but the Williams also looked good in Valencia, Singapore and Abu Dhabi (lots of slow, street-like sections)

So it seems like the Williams doesn't have too many weaknesses so I'm hopeful CoTA will be another good race

#3775 race addicted

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 10:39

22 points is a very, very big ask indeed - put another way; 11 points from each of the last two races.
Just looking at a circuit map, I would totally expect Force India to have the upper hand at Circuit of Americas, but then I think Interlagos should suit Williams better. Problem is though, that the gap is big already, and that Force India are more likely to have both drivers scoring if the car is up to it.

Wherever Williams end up, I think this season has been encouraging. They've managed far fewer points than what's been possible, but when this was meant to be a transition-year, then they have to be more than content. The car has been quick and versatile, and apart from going down a blind alley on front-wings, the team has come up with sound updates ensuring Williams has been just as close to the front now as at the beginning.

#3776 Petroltorque

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 17:08

Its more like Spa with the elevation changes with sectors 1 and 3 being downforce dependent. I'd say that favours Williams.

#3777 gio66

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 18:02

Its more like Spa with the elevation changes with sectors 1 and 3 being downforce dependent. I'd say that favours Williams.

Bruno told me they had problems at Spa (and Monza also) because of the front wing. Hope they have solved the problem.

#3778 Anderis

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 18:22

Some of interesting statistics:
Maldonado's average grid position in FW33 was better, than Senna's average grid position in FW34 so far.

#3779 A.Fant

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 18:29

Bruno told me they had problems at Spa (and Monza also) because of the front wing. Hope they have solved the problem.


At Spa where Maldonado qualified 3rd and Senna set the fastest lap?

AFAIK the FW problems were most apparent in Korea and were subsequently solved.

Abu Dhabi has historically been an awful track for Williams where they hadn't scored a point before, so Maldonado's front-running pace before his KERS failure was both surprising and perhaps an indication that the FW34 can be fast at all kinds of tracks. They have struggled (comparatively) in Spain and Belgium since 2009, and these were some of their strongest tracks this year. The failure was a pity, since he was just starting to pull away from Alonso and catch Räikkönen when it happened. I agree with Pastor when he says he could've won the race, and it was looking like he'd at least get a podium. But I'll take a KERS failure and a 5th place ahead of whatever is going on with Hamilton's car at the moment.

I won't set my expectations higher than Pastor making Q3 and Bruno making Q2, but Maldonado could very well get it up into the top 5 in qualifying.

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#3780 Flyhigh

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 18:54

Some of interesting statistics:
Maldonado's average grid position in FW33 was better, than Senna's average grid position in FW34 so far.


Why do you have to keep dissing Bruno at every corner with random stuff? How about Bruno has more point finishes than Maldonado's 2 years combined at Williams there is an "interesting statistic" You seem like an insecure Maldonado fan. They both have glaring weaknesses that needs development.

Edited by Flyhigh, 05 November 2012 - 18:56.


#3781 race addicted

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 19:08

Its more like Spa with the elevation changes with sectors 1 and 3 being downforce dependent. I'd say that favours Williams.


What do you mean? It's not entirely clear since both tracks has elevation changes.

#3782 Anderis

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 19:34

Why do you have to keep dissing Bruno at every corner with random stuff? How about Bruno has more point finishes than Maldonado's 2 years combined at Williams there is an "interesting statistic" You seem like an insecure Maldonado fan. They both have glaring weaknesses that needs development.

Oh man, I've just posted some statistics, didn't even give any comment on them. Yet, you want me to comment the statistics about point finishes. If anything, your behaviour seemed more like an insecure fan than mine in this case. And the fact than Bruno has more point finishes was often posted in all Maldonado-Senna comparisons. The fact that I've posted recently was probably posted for the first time, I believe.

I'm not a Maldonado fan and I was completely miserable when Williams dropped Hulk for him at the end of the 2010.

If even giving some statistics makes you angry... have a nice day. :wave:

#3783 Flyhigh

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 19:56

Oh man, I've just posted some statistics, didn't even give any comment on them. Yet, you want me to comment the statistics about point finishes. If anything, your behaviour seemed more like an insecure fan than mine in this case. And the fact than Bruno has more point finishes was often posted in all Maldonado-Senna comparisons. The fact that I've posted recently was probably posted for the first time, I believe.

I'm not a Maldonado fan and I was completely miserable when Williams dropped Hulk for him at the end of the 2010.

If even giving some statistics makes you angry... have a nice day. :wave:


I am not angry, but every time I read a post of your here seems to be dissing Bruno and trying to put Maldonado on a good light in comparison. Sorry if I got the wrong impression. I am not a fan, I believe both of these drivers have not been great, both lacking development in several areas, that is why trying to find qualities to redeem them in comparison to each other is silly. Comparing who is the less dirty.

#3784 Anderis

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 20:57

I am not angry, but every time I read a post of your here seems to be dissing Bruno and trying to put Maldonado on a good light in comparison. Sorry if I got the wrong impression. I am not a fan, I believe both of these drivers have not been great, both lacking development in several areas, that is why trying to find qualities to redeem them in comparison to each other is silly. Comparing who is the less dirty.

Sometimes I'm trying to put Maldonado on a good light in comparison because I honestly believe he deserves that. Since both of them have not been great, I have to be dissing Bruno in this kind of comparison. I'm a bit angry with him because sometimes I feel he gets more credit than any other driver would get if have been performing like he has. (Bruno for example has been rated as a 3rd best driver of Indian GP on Atlas Voting Championship, which seems highly unfair to me and I feel nobody of other drivers would get such a high amount of votes for the performance like this).

There were some people suggesting that Senna should be kept over Maldonado (maybe not that many here, but if you look at the official Williams' facebook page...). I thoroughly disagree with them and since I'm a Williams fan, I want good for Williams, not for Maldonado, so there is no reason to think my judgement is affected by emotions. You're all free to disagree with me, but I would appreciate if you try to express disagreement on basis of merit or just ignore me rather than accusing me of dissing Bruno. I will continue to write what I think of him as long as I feel provoked by the comments which express opinions which I disagree with.

#3785 Petroltorque

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:45

What do you mean? It's not entirely clear since both tracks has elevation changes.

I mean that with any track with significant elevation change you want to get downforce off the car. Granted Spa has nearly three times as much gradient change as COTA but one is still left with choosing how much downforce to run to get through the tortuous sections and not get mugged on the pit straight. I'm guessing that the pit straight is where we'll see the DRS zone as it encompasses a final uphill turn to the switch back lefthander at T1.

#3786 GustavoB

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 00:58

Hi,

just to let you know guys that today the tazio site (autosport.com brazilian sister site) is spreading the news that Gillete (P&G) and Williams almost closed the deal on Senna seat to 2013. That the values are ok from both parts and the deal should be signed in the next weeks.

http://tazio.uol.com...-com-a-williams

I think that they want to have everything done until the Brazilian GP.

Edited by GustavoB, 07 November 2012 - 00:59.


#3787 Kyo

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:18

Hi,

just to let you know guys that today the tazio site (autosport.com brazilian sister site) is spreading the news that Gillete (P&G) and Williams almost closed the deal on Senna seat to 2013. That the values are ok from both parts and the deal should be signed in the next weeks.

http://tazio.uol.com...-com-a-williams

I think that they want to have everything done until the Brazilian GP.

wow, that would be unexpected.

#3788 Tiakumosan

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:34

Gustavo, it seems they agreed on the values of the contract, but Williams will yet make a decision, no?

If they choose Bruno, values are already defined.

#3789 Little Leaf

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 05:30

wow, that would be unexpected.


No kidding. If that happens (find it hard to believe that he will stay to be honest) I wonder what they will do with Bottas

#3790 darkkis

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 07:21

No kidding. If that happens (find it hard to believe that he will stay to be honest) I wonder what they will do with Bottas

They will lose him then... Anyway that might be just a rumour with no truth in it.. You never know, and after all it's from a brazilian site.

#3791 GustavoB

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:16

Gustavo, it seems they agreed on the values of the contract, but Williams will yet make a decision, no?

If they choose Bruno, values are already defined.


You are right. Williams need to sign in, but if it's true, why williams would ask for an amount of money and when they get it not sign in.

In the same site but on journalist blog, they say Bruno's management team have other options. They are saying that sponsors are loyal to Bruno and they don't mind to change team, but they want Williams or something in the same level. So with the budget that they have FI and Sauber are options but they don't see Bruno going to a smaller team.

http://tazio.uol.com...m-novo-capitulo

#3792 kenny

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 09:04

Might explain his helmet change for the rest of the year... Maybe that ws one of the conditions of gillette to continue...

#3793 Tiakumosan

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 09:54

You are right. Williams need to sign in, but if it's true, why williams would ask for an amount of money and when they get it not sign in.


Maybe they haven't decided yet?


#3794 Francesc

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:06

Maybe they haven't decided yet?


I think they've already decided who they want, Bottas. But they're still trying to put together the budget, and if they can't find enough sponsors then they will keep Senna.

#3795 Tract1on

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 11:21

Bottas is still young and inexperienced, he has lots of time.....
Bruno has done a solid job and i think he should be given another year at Williams, many drivers seems to improve in the second year. It doesnt seem right to take a driver on and bin him after a year, best to support the drivers.
If not Williams i would be happy to see Bruno at Force India.

Edited by Tract1on, 07 November 2012 - 11:21.


#3796 Vickyy

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 11:27

If not Williams i would be happy to see Bruno at Force India.

Noo please, I don't want FI to be my unfavourite team :)

#3797 Tract1on

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 11:46

Dissapointing to see Williams string the driver decisions along......
Like with Rubens last year, i think its bad for the drivers confidence.
If they are going to bring in Bottas for 2013 then i guess they are going to keep it quiet until the end of the season to keep motivation high, i wonder if Williams are try to re-sign Bruno's sponsors prior to any decision about the drive?
Im sure that his sponsors are conditional on him resigning.
I hope Bruno is shopping around and has some options.
Shame that Williams have this 3 into 2 problem, i think they should loan Bottas out for a year to one of the smaller teams, give him some experience without any pressure. Or perhaps a year in GP2.
I think Bruno is much better than people give him credit, the qualifying hasn't been great but i dont think the speed or racecraft is lacking i just think he just needs more time to get the car more to his liking.

Edited by Tract1on, 07 November 2012 - 11:49.


#3798 Anderis

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 13:26

Bottas seems certain at Williams

The seat of Valtteri Bottas at Williams alongside Pastor Maldonado seems assured. The Finn has not only convincing in the Friday practice sessions. Bottas has apparently put together a sponsorship package that is already at three quarters of the total, which raises Bruno Senna in the ring. Since the choice is apparently no longer difficult.

source




#3799 Francesc

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 13:42

Thanks for the link :up: I wonder what would do the team if Bruno come up with 30$ million from sponsors...

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#3800 BoschKurve

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 14:24

Bottas has finished in top3 overall each full season in all racing series in which he participated. He is one of the best prospects in F1 in recent years.

Sure, not racing in 2012 is not ideal scenario, but Williams know how quick he is able to run compared to Maldonado and Senna in F1 car and they know how quick was Maldonado compared to Barrichello, so it's quite good benchmark. If they know he is quick, I would rather go for him than for a driver like Kovalainen, Kobayashi, Alguersuari etc. If Williams want to have a top-quality driver in the near future, they need to gamble with young drivers and Bottas is good material considering his record in junior racing series and opinion he has in the racing world.


I guess I am skeptical of Bottas.

Fast in free practice is one thing, fast against everyone else in a F1 race is another thing.

There's a long list of guys who were considered fast in lesser formulas, and never really panned out in F1.