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Williams 2012 - FW34 Renault


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#3801 BoschKurve

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 14:30

Thanks for the link :up: I wonder what would do the team if Bruno come up with 30$ million from sponsors...


I just think this sort of money needed to get a seat on the grid is astounding...even more so when it doesn't even seem to be a guarantee of a seat.

I do think given the financial situation with Force India possibly losing sponsors, I could see them venturing a look at Bruno if he really is coming with that sort of money.

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#3802 Tiakumosan

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 20:53

I think they've already decided who they want, Bottas. But they're still trying to put together the budget, and if they can't find enough sponsors then they will keep Senna.


I agree, otherwise, Williams would not put him on 15 fridays. I believe the only small chance Bruno had was if he had scored lots of points more than Pastor, what have not happened. Or team still needs his money.

#3803 Disgrace

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 22:01

There's a long list of guys who were considered fast in lesser formulas, and never really panned out in F1.


Indeed, however, other than testing which is now becoming Friday practice session runs, junior formulae is the only indicator we have left.

Edited by Disgrace, 07 November 2012 - 22:02.


#3804 Tiakumosan

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 14:23

New track, will Bottas drive on FP1?

#3805 oscy23

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 14:30

New track, will Bottas drive on FP1?

Would be crazy of Williams to do this, if they want to catch force india..
Bruno will get all 3 sessions.

#3806 Tiakumosan

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 14:39

:up:

#3807 Anderis

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 15:31

Would be crazy of Williams to do this, if they want to catch force india..
Bruno will get all 3 sessions.

Bruno will get all 3 sessions not due to that Williams want to catch Force India. He will get it because Bottas has in his contract that he is doing the exact number of 15 FPS's this year and Austin was decided not to be one of them.
He should be back for the FP1 in Brazil.

#3808 BoschKurve

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 15:43

Indeed, however, other than testing which is now becoming Friday practice session runs, junior formulae is the only indicator we have left.


I agree. The issue for me is that he should go drive in GP2 for 2013, and then he can assume a seat in 2014.

This guy isn't Niki Lauda who could not drive for a few years, then come back and start winning again. He's an unproven commodity, and as such, he should be in GP2 instead of doing FP1 for a whole season this way he can refine his ability further.

#3809 gio66

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 19:12

New track, will Bottas drive on FP1?


Yes

#3810 skywing

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 19:55

Yes

No he won't.

#3811 mattferg

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 20:06

I agree, otherwise, Williams would not put him on 15 fridays. I believe the only small chance Bruno had was if he had scored lots of points more than Pastor, what have not happened. Or team still needs his money.


Senna is a far more regular point scorer than Maldonado. Apart from his win, Maldonado has only scored points on one or two other occasions, whereas Senna has scored points on something insane like 5+, maybe 8 or 9? As a team I'd much rather have a consistent, fairly fast driver than an extremely inconsistent very fast one.

EDIT: 4 to Senna's 9. They're only separated by Schumi in the WDC and in total only by 13 points. 30 to Maldonado's 43. Why introduce yet another untested rookie into F1, just because he's fast in practice? Grosjean and Perez have worked out so well... not.

Edited by mattferg, 13 November 2012 - 20:10.


#3812 BoschKurve

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 20:41

Senna is a far more regular point scorer than Maldonado. Apart from his win, Maldonado has only scored points on one or two other occasions, whereas Senna has scored points on something insane like 5+, maybe 8 or 9? As a team I'd much rather have a consistent, fairly fast driver than an extremely inconsistent very fast one.

EDIT: 4 to Senna's 9. They're only separated by Schumi in the WDC and in total only by 13 points. 30 to Maldonado's 43. Why introduce yet another untested rookie into F1, just because he's fast in practice? Grosjean and Perez have worked out so well... not.


The sad thing is, had the planets not aligned perfectly in Barcelona, I have a strong feeling Maldonado would be behind Senna in total points. But the result stands. I suppose I've been far more impressed with Bruno this season than Pastor. While Senna's qualifying is just....well bad, he's done a very solid job of fighting his way into the points. Had he been able to get into Q3 more frequently, I believe he would have been well ahead of Maldonado in points, and I do believe the team would be ahead of Force India in the WCC standings. But such was not meant to be.

I could be wrong, but I just think Bottas for 2013 would be a bad idea.

#3813 One

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 21:53

I will rather go for it.

#3814 Anderis

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 21:54

I see many people still underestimate the amount of points Pastor has thrown out by his stupid mistakes. I have absolutely no doubt Bottas would've outscored Senna this year at Williams and the same goes for the majority of drivers you can think they're F1 level (they've also outscored Maldonado of course).
Pastor would have 116 points awarded from qualifying only, and the points thrown by him in the races look like:
- 10 or 12 points in Australia (he did not only crash, but also had made a mistake at the beginning of the race which costed him around 7 seconds and a position to Webber. Had this not happened, he wouldn't have needed to fight with Alonso for 5th and even 4th would've been achievable)
- 6-10 points in Monaco if he hadn't crashed into Perez during practise and got penalty for that
- 2 points in Canada if he hadn't crashed on a quick lap in Q3 losing top10 grid spot
- 15 points in Valencia (crash with Hamilton)
- 4-6 points in Silverstone (crash with Perez)
- 12 points in Spa (impending in qualy, jump start, crashed into Glock, 4th place is probably not overoptimistic assumption considering his quali pace)
I don't even count a bad start off the line in Hungary.

What does it mean? The car was capable of around 100 points with Maldonado's pace and no mistakes and Bruno has only scored only 30% of this.

+ points lost by Pastor due to bad luck
- 1 point in Malaysia (engine failure while running 10th just before end of the race)
- 6-10 points in Bahrain (puncture, he was 5th quickest driver on the circuit before that puncture and had been running in top10 at that point despite starting from the back of the grid)
- 6-10 points in Germany (damaged car after running over debris, when it happened he was running 6th with clearly better pace than Hulk who was ahead of him)
- 1-4 points in Italy (he had a slow puncture which forced him to change a strategy to what was less efficient according to the team, yet still finished less than 1 second from 10th)
- 12-15 points in Singapore (no comment needed)
- 2-8 points in Abu Dhabi (KERS failure, he could fight for podium as he was quicker than Alonso before his KERS failed)
How many points has Senna lost? Some for sure, but he hasn't potential to be anything near it, at least this season.

Senna has been scoring points consistently, but he has only 4 top8 finishes- the same as Maldonado, and 0 top5 finishes- compared to 2 Maldonado. I really don't understand how one can be impressed by a couple of 9th and 10th places when the car had top8 potential in all but 2 or 3 races this season. Bruno really needs to improve if he wants to deserve F1 seat. I can only see this if he actually had some kind of issue with tyres and is able to fix it in a short time, because he was neither really quick nor consistent this season (for example in Canada Maldonado has finished about a minute in front of him despite the fact of lower grid position and Senna had no serious issue during the race, he was also making some mistakes, getting penalties for causing collisions in Valencia, Suzuka, spun at important moment in Silverstone and had pleny of contacts with barriers in Singapore, he was also never looking like set to finish the race in top5 which is real shame in this car) and only comparison with ultra-crasher Maldonado makes him look not that bad.

Maldonado remains vastly superior in terms of potential and he will outperform Senna regularly if he can stay out of trouble, as in the last 6 races in which he really has made some progress. He is outscoring Bruno 14-6 in the last 6 races despite losing 2 podium opportunities due to mechanical problems. This is the difference between those two: Pastor seems to be improving his issue with crashing while Senna isn't improving in qualifying. No wonder, it was pointed many times that quick driver is more likely to stop crashing than another driver to solve his problems with pace.

#3815 SamH123

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 01:56

Going to be interesting to see what the car is like this weekend
We've seen that on slow street circuits the Williams + Maldo combination is right up there but I can't predict where Williams currently stands on fast circuits. Spa looked good but Suzuka+Korea+India were a bit meh
Maldonado has the biggest range of possible qualifying positions where none would shock me of all the drivers imo!

#3816 Anderis

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 11:09

Going to be interesting to see what the car is like this weekend
We've seen that on slow street circuits the Williams + Maldo combination is right up there but I can't predict where Williams currently stands on fast circuits. Spa looked good but Suzuka+Korea+India were a bit meh
Maldonado has the biggest range of possible qualifying positions where none would shock me of all the drivers imo!

Williams had a front wing issue aroud Suzuka+Korea+India times that seems to be solved judging by Abu Dhabi pace.

Fast corners are the biggest natural strength of this car. As you could see, Maldonado was able to put much better qualifying effort at Spa than at Monaco for example. And although the early-season issue with slow corners seems to be more or less solved and car seems to be pretty strong everywhere bar long straights-chicanes combo (Monza and Canada), I still think tracks like Barcelona, Spa, Austin and Interlagos are those on which Williams have the best opportunity to shine.

#3817 Bleu

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 08:36

15 FPs for Bottas means there is five where he isn't in the car.

So far there has been four: Melbourne, Monaco, Montreal and Singapore. It's quite obvious that USA will be one of those he misses, even though Senna doesn't get FP1 in his home race.


#3818 Tract1on

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 16:13

So when can we expect some news on the drivers for 2013?

#3819 Anderis

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 16:26

So when can we expect some news on the drivers for 2013?

Propably after the last race of the season

I expect some news around late November, or early December. But it may be confirmation about only one driver, like they did last year.

If Bruno is out, no way they would announce it just before Brazilian GP. If he stays, then still Williams have a tradition of announcing their drivers after the season even if they keep the same line-up (2008 comes to my mind).

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#3820 Lord Snooty

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 16:27

Encouraging performance from Pastor in FP3. Roll on qually.



#3821 race addicted

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 16:31

Absolutely! Williams once again has the pace to qualify top five. Great!

#3822 Anderis

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 16:39

That was incredible lap from Pastor. The car was obviously lacking some grip and was extremely hard to drive, yet he managed to set so competitve time. Hope he will be able to repeat it in qualifying, I'm not so sure he would do it.

#3823 Francesc

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 16:44

That was incredible lap from Pastor. The car was obviously lacking some grip and was extremely hard to drive, yet he managed to set so competitve time. Hope he will be able to repeat it in qualifying, I'm not so sure he would do it.


I don't agree on the car lacking grip. This car has a lot of grip. If it looked like it was lacking grip is because Maldonado made a couple of mistakes. Without them he would be on Hamilton's lap time.

#3824 Anderis

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 16:50

I still think the car was unstable, but having Senna in the other seat doesn't help to evaluate this. :|

#3825 BetaVersion

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 16:59

Absolutely! Williams Maldonado once again has the pace to qualify top five. Great!


fixed for you

I don't agree on the car lacking grip. This car has a lot of grip. If it looked like it was lacking grip is because Maldonado made a couple of mistakes. Without them he would be on Hamilton's lap time.


The car have good downforce. It was just Pastor pushing it to the limits(this time a little too much) as usual.

Williams is lucky to have a super quick driver like him. I hope he can outqualify the Ferraris, Lotuses and Mercedes

#3826 Kyo

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 16:59

I don't agree on the car lacking grip. This car has a lot of grip. If it looked like it was lacking grip is because Maldonado made a couple of mistakes. Without them he would be on Hamilton's lap time.

I don't think so. They clearly went for a low downforce set-up, and Pastor correcting the car without slowing down was quite impressive.

#3827 Anderis

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 17:47

fixed for you

Not really. There is no driver who can drive quicker than the car allows him.

Pastor is very quick over one lap, but FW34 is very quick also and I'm sure there are plenty of drivers who could put it in top5 in qualifying on occassion as well.

#3828 whitevisor

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 17:52

This is why Toto wants to Keep Maldonado. You can allways polish him up to be more consistent.. and lets face it, he is doing quite good in only his second year in Formula 1. He is a future star.

With Senna now, I wouldn't feel sorry for him if Bottas gets his seat, but Bottas has not enough money. Bottas seems to be quick, doubt he is as fast as Maldonado but he should be decent.

#3829 Anderis

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 17:56

but Bottas has not enough money.

There are some reports that he has (please don't ask me to post the same source for 3rd time on this board).


#3830 911

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 18:22

Both drivers looked good in Q1. I hope they get to Q3 today!

#3831 Anderis

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:29

Poor effort from Maldonado in Q3. 8 tenths slower than in Q2,

Congratulations for Bruno, he has ended the qualifying in the upper half of the grid for a second time this season! :up:

I think Maldonado has screwed Hulk's last lap by slowing down unnecessary. I won't be surprised if there is a penalty.

#3832 joora

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:45

I think Maldonado couldn't get the tyres up to temp today in Q3. He has commented on that even after Q2.



#3833 BoschKurve

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 15:50

Poor effort from Maldonado in Q3. 8 tenths slower than in Q2,

Congratulations for Bruno, he has ended the qualifying in the upper half of the grid for a second time this season! :up:

I think Maldonado has screwed Hulk's last lap by slowing down unnecessary. I won't be surprised if there is a penalty.


I feel Bruno may have actually benefited from not getting into Q3 since he'll be on the clean side of the track. The launch should be quite interesting to watch. If the dirty side is as bad as Webber was claiming, I could see Bruno perhaps getting past Pastor going into T1. I'm rather concerned about that corner since I can see lots of contact in the midfield. The only thing that left me wondering was if what Pastor did in Q3, happens to the best the car was capable of in qualifying. Either way I hope both guys can finish ahead of Force India and get another double points finish for Williams.

#3834 Lord Snooty

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 17:05

Well, could be a good race for us today; just have a feeling that both Bruno & Pastor will do well today!

#3835 Francesc

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 17:45

I feel Bruno may have actually benefited from not getting into Q3 since he'll be on the clean side of the track. The launch should be quite interesting to watch. If the dirty side is as bad as Webber was claiming, I could see Bruno perhaps getting past Pastor going into T1. I'm rather concerned about that corner since I can see lots of contact in the midfield. The only thing that left me wondering was if what Pastor did in Q3, happens to the best the car was capable of in qualifying. Either way I hope both guys can finish ahead of Force India and get another double points finish for Williams.


Not anymore. But now Hulkenberg will be starting from the dirty side too.

#3836 Tiakumosan

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 18:35

And now Pastor will be on the clean side at the start. Bruno @ the dirty one.

#3837 Flyhigh

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 18:59

In my view it would be stupid for Willaims to drop Senna now. He can only get better, specially going forwards in his second full season (in a descent F1 car) and with all the Friday practices as all the drivers have. Senna has shown to be a much better race driver than a lot of midfielders. I believe with Senna polishing his qualy a little bit, his races will only improve and he is already doing a good job at it. A good workhorse on race day, able to scramble from the back even when incidents happen and needs to go to the back of the grid is quite valuable, better than just being constantly fast on qualy and not able to scramble on race day.



#3838 Lord Snooty

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 20:50

Both cars in the points!! Good race and I do think Pastor would have had Hulk within a another couple of laps!

#3839 Flyhigh

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:44

Both cars in the points!! Good race and I do think Pastor would have had Hulk within a another couple of laps!


Senna pulled along side and almost passed Hulk as well before getting caught by Maldonado. Hulk did an amazing Job, he is really good on the tyres, he was one of the first to stop and managed his tyres for so many laps. Keeping Bruno and Maldonado away. Williams drivers did a good job. I would like for Williams to keep them both, they tend to develop, why bring on another rookie right now when they are just starting to get some stability with both drivers scoring.

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#3840 Disgrace

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:49

Senna should not have been beaten by his team-mate. He poked his nose into a compromising position which opened the door for Button and two others to sail past at one point.

#3841 BoschKurve

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 23:20

Senna should not have been beaten by his team-mate. He poked his nose into a compromising position which opened the door for Button and two others to sail past at one point.


I agree.

I was a little surprised with the way he left himself open multiple times. Although that pass by Pastor in T1 was borderline stupid. Even though it was successful, it had all the trademarks of the stuff that got him into so much trouble at various times this season.

One thing I will say about Maldonado, is that even though he is a good qualifier, his race ability leaves a lot to be desired IMO. He seems to be very much stuck in the general area of wherever he qualifies during the actual race. Although that could just be a case of the car's capabilities rather than his. But, I think his overall speed may be a little overstated.

#3842 roadie

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:07

But MAL will generally put the car where it is supposed to be! SEN is the one that has to come past slower cars each race because he nearly always is in the middle of the pack.

Both drivers did well today, but it could have been a better result if they hadn't lost out a lot in the first couple of laps.

#3843 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 16:01

I agree.

I was a little surprised with the way he left himself open multiple times. Although that pass by Pastor in T1 was borderline stupid.


How? He was fully alongside going into the corner and then held the line to push Bruno wide, as anyone would do in a good overtake. He even asked permission to have a go from Williams first.

#3844 tarmac

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 16:09

I wonder why they cant confirm Maldonado. If there is a problem they wont that amount of money anywhere

Edited by tarmac, 19 November 2012 - 16:10.


#3845 Anderis

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 18:30

I wonder why they cant confirm Maldonado.

1. They never announce their driver line-up before the end of the season in recent years.
2. Maldonado's deal is not already in place. There can be plenty of disagreement about length of contract, salary, sponsorship etc. Even if both sides want to continue together, it's a normal thing they try to negotiate better deals for each other. I guess Maldonado and PDVSA may be willing to demand better deal from Williams since Pastor is leading his team-mate in standings and has now won the race. And it's a fair thing. Williams don't agree on everything is fair too, because Maldonado still underperformed over a whole year. They need to find a compromise and it usually takes time.

#3846 BoschKurve

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 18:41

How? He was fully alongside going into the corner and then held the line to push Bruno wide, as anyone would do in a good overtake. He even asked permission to have a go from Williams first.


The contact he made was stupid. That's the sort of thing that takes both cars out of the race.

I'm a little disappointed with how the Williams looked during the race. It wasn't as bad a few of the more recent races, but it just felt like something was left on the table, and they should not have finished behind Hulkenberg IMO.

#3847 BoschKurve

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 18:43

1. They never announce their driver line-up before the end of the season in recent years.
2. Maldonado's deal is not already in place. There can be plenty of disagreement about length of contract, salary, sponsorship etc. Even if both sides want to continue together, it's a normal thing they try to negotiate better deals for each other. I guess Maldonado and PDVSA may be willing to demand better deal from Williams since Pastor is leading his team-mate in standings and has now won the race. And it's a fair thing. Williams don't agree on everything is fair too, because Maldonado still underperformed over a whole year. They need to find a compromise and it usually takes time.


I know Pastor wants a long-term deal, but I wouldn't give him more than 3 years on a new deal. It may sound nuts, but I would just match number of years Hamilton got with his Mercedes deal since I have a feeling he'll be out of there when that deal is done. I actually was hoping Lewis would go to Williams since I felt there was more potential to be had with this team than Mercedes.

#3848 Flyhigh

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 23:20

But MAL will generally put the car where it is supposed to be! SEN is the one that has to come past slower cars each race because he nearly always is in the middle of the pack.

Both drivers did well today, but it could have been a better result if they hadn't lost out a lot in the first couple of laps.


Well it could be said that Senna puts the car where it supposed to be on race day more than Maldonado. His race craft is clearly superior. The majority of races even though Maldonado qualifies well ahead sometimes on the grid, by race time he is usually behind or finishes just in front of Senna. If Senna improves just a little bit his qualy to go along with his skills he is more likely to consistently put the car where it belongs on race day. .

Also let's not pretend that missing 15 FP1 makes no difference at all. It is a considerable disadvantage specially for qualy in my view. I would give Senna a second year at Williams with full rights like all the drivers and then see how he develops. I can see him improving his qualy performance in this way and his race craft is already quite descent is a good combination. Why put another rookie to pair up with Maldonado who in his second full year has been shown to be more accident prone even than rookies.

#3849 TFLB

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 23:36

The contact he made was stupid. That's the sort of thing that takes both cars out of the race.

I'm a little disappointed with how the Williams looked during the race. It wasn't as bad a few of the more recent races, but it just felt like something was left on the table, and they should not have finished behind Hulkenberg IMO.

The contact was Senna's fault. Maldonado was ahead by the time they turned into the corner.

#3850 SamH123

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 00:21

MAL hunted down SEN really quickly in the final stint, I'm not sure Senna 'should' have beaten him because he seemed a fair bit slower
I dunno what happened at the start though, MAL seemed to drop like a stone even after losing places at the start

Am I right in saying Interlagos is a little similar to Spain? Hoping for a strong finish to the year