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Williams 2012 - FW34 Renault


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#3851 sheogorath

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:29

I suspect those complaining about Maldonado's move on Senna, would celebrate it if it had been done by Kobayashi.

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#3852 BoschKurve

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:22

I suspect those complaining about Maldonado's move on Senna, would celebrate it if it had been done by Kobayashi.


No I wouldn't celebrate it.

Senna was forced onto the curbs slightly because of Maldonado's overtake. Maldonado swung too wide through the line...some of you guys need to rewatch the overtake.

#3853 TFLB

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:49

No I wouldn't celebrate it.

Senna was forced onto the curbs slightly because of Maldonado's overtake. Maldonado swung too wide through the line...some of you guys need to rewatch the overtake.

Senna had plenty of space. Maldonado was very fair.

#3854 Anderis

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:17

Oh, please, no again. :yawnface:

Well it could be said that Senna puts the car where it supposed to be on race day more than Maldonado.

Really not, because finishing the race on 10th when the car is capable of much more is not putting the car where it is supposed to be. Senna has only 4 top8 finishes and 0 top5 finishes, while the car was capable of top8 finishes in all but 2 or 3 races this season and of top5 finishes on quite a lot of occassions as well.
So far I would say that Senna put the car where it should be only in 2 races so far: China and Hungary
Maldonado did it more times: China, Spain, Japan, Abu Dhabi and you couldn't really expect more from him in Bahrain, Germany or Singapore.

His race craft is clearly superior.

It was not a problem to have superior racecraft to a driver who crashed out more point-scoring opportunities than brought home. But in the last couple of races Senna's advantage isn't that obvious. In fact, his race-craft is not as good as some people want to believe. He is fairly inconsistent and good car and crashy team-mate make him look not that bad. His race-pace fluctuates from decent to awful (Canada, when he finished 52 seconds behind Maldonado despite better grid position). He is not always good in wheel-to-wheel battle (in Canada he couldn't overtake Caterham for the majority of the race, while it took only 1 lap to Maldonado to do it). He has made plenty of mistakes: 1st lap spin in Malaysia, spin at important moment in Silverstone, got penalties for causing collisions in Valencia and Japan, made several contacts with barriers in Singapore etc.

The majority of races even though Maldonado qualifies well ahead sometimes on the grid, by race time he is usually behind or finishes just in front of Senna.

This is a myth. You could see in the last race. Senna was ahead after lap 1, Maldonado finished ahead. Can you tell me how Senna was anyhow close to Maldonado in Australia, Spain, Valencia, Singapore, Abu Dhabi etc.? Senna was usually ahead or just behind Maldonado if Pastor was making mistakes. There were several races when Bruno was close pace-wise to Pastor, but at average, Pastor was much quicker. And he is not crashing recently.
Your claim has much more to do with reality if it is reversed. Maldonado started from lower grid position than Senna 4 times:
- In Bahrain Maldonado was 11.5 seconds in front of Senna just after 23 laps when his tyre punctured. Both were after 1 pit stop and Senna's had his pit stop earlier which is usually better in short-term (23 laps in this case).
- In Monaco Maldonado crashed into HRT
- In Canada Maldonado has finished the race the whole 52(!) seconds ahead despite Bruno had not any problem with car, any collision or whatever.
- In Italy Maldonado has finished just behind Senna despite the fact he had a slow puncture during the race and was forced to change his strategy to a 2-stopper, which was significantly worse around Monza than 1-stopper according to the team.

If Senna improves just a little bit his qualy to go along with his skills he is more likely to consistently put the car where it belongs on race day. .

The problem is that Maldonado is recently showing more improvement in avoiding accidents, than Senna in qualifying.

Maldonado who in his second full year has been shown to be more accident prone even than rookies.

Not in the last 7 races.

Edited by Anderis, 20 November 2012 - 09:19.


#3855 joora

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:02

Senna is way too conservative driver, afraid to overtake, and that doesn't combine well with his inability to qualify well.
Honestly, he should've overtaken Hulk and put more resistance to Button and Pastor.
He is total opposite of drivers like Kimi.

ah well, 8th in the drivers championship is almost certain, not a big step forward, at least the team has one GP win after a long time.
Roll on next season!

#3856 oscy23

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:09

Yes he is more conservative, but you need that in a team with another driver like Malda..
Its weird though cos last year coming in halfway through the season it was complete opposite, he was fast in quali and poor in race pace..

You have one guy whos fast and erratic and another whos just consistent..
All the major teams seem to have this driver combo though
Vettel and Webber
Ham and Button..
Alonso and Massa



#3857 Tiakumosan

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:39

Senna is way too conservative driver, afraid to overtake, and that doesn't combine well with his inability to qualify well.
Honestly, he should've overtaken Hulk and put more resistance to Button and Pastor.
He is total opposite of drivers like Kimi.

ah well, 8th in the drivers championship is almost certain, not a big step forward, at least the team has one GP win after a long time.
Roll on next season!


More resistance to Pastor I don't agree, could risk losing some points to the team.

#3858 Anderis

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:28

You have one guy whos fast and erratic and another whos just consistent..
All the major teams seem to have this driver combo though
Vettel and Webber
Ham and Button..
Alonso and Massa

I struggle to understand your point.

For exampe: is Alonso erratic or is he just consistent?

Is Vettel really erratic? Because Webber isn't consistent for sure...

#3859 oscy23

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:54

What I meant was Vettel is much faster than Webber and dispute his horror luck and mech. probs is a fairly conservative driver compared to vettel who likes to push hard for fast laps. His not erratic, as compared to Maldo, but he does like to push the limits of the car when he doesnt need to..

Hamilton is clearly fast racer but gets caught up in incidents. While Button is the more conservative driver manages tires well..

As for Alonso and Massa, a bit different.. but they are no way similar driver in styles and speed..
Massa isnt consisten while Alonso is (usually)..

What im more getting at, is the differing driver styles work well for those teams..Gives them varying perspectives towards car setup and Development..

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#3860 Collective

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 14:57

I wonder why they cant confirm Maldonado. If there is a problem they wont that amount of money anywhere

Check clears first, driver is confirmed second.

#3861 Flyhigh

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 15:30

Oh, please, no again. :yawnface:

Really not, because finishing the race on 10th when the car is capable of much more is not putting the car where it is supposed to be. Senna has only 4 top8 finishes and 0 top5 finishes, while the car was capable of top8 finishes in all but 2 or 3 races this season and of top5 finishes on quite a lot of occassions as well.
So far I would say that Senna put the car where it should be only in 2 races so far: China and Hungary
Maldonado did it more times: China, Spain, Japan, Abu Dhabi and you couldn't really expect more from him in Bahrain, Germany or Singapore.


It was not a problem to have superior racecraft to a driver who crashed out more point-scoring opportunities than brought home. But in the last couple of races Senna's advantage isn't that obvious. In fact, his race-craft is not as good as some people want to believe. He is fairly inconsistent and good car and crashy team-mate make him look not that bad. His race-pace fluctuates from decent to awful (Canada, when he finished 52 seconds behind Maldonado despite better grid position). He is not always good in wheel-to-wheel battle (in Canada he couldn't overtake Caterham for the majority of the race, while it took only 1 lap to Maldonado to do it). He has made plenty of mistakes: 1st lap spin in Malaysia, spin at important moment in Silverstone, got penalties for causing collisions in Valencia and Japan, made several contacts with barriers in Singapore etc.


This is a myth. You could see in the last race. Senna was ahead after lap 1, Maldonado finished ahead. Can you tell me how Senna was anyhow close to Maldonado in Australia, Spain, Valencia, Singapore, Abu Dhabi etc.? Senna was usually ahead or just behind Maldonado if Pastor was making mistakes. There were several races when Bruno was close pace-wise to Pastor, but at average, Pastor was much quicker. And he is not crashing recently.
Your claim has much more to do with reality if it is reversed. Maldonado started from lower grid position than Senna 4 times:
- In Bahrain Maldonado was 11.5 seconds in front of Senna just after 23 laps when his tyre punctured. Both were after 1 pit stop and Senna's had his pit stop earlier which is usually better in short-term (23 laps in this case).
- In Monaco Maldonado crashed into HRT
- In Canada Maldonado has finished the race the whole 52(!) seconds ahead despite Bruno had not any problem with car, any collision or whatever.
- In Italy Maldonado has finished just behind Senna despite the fact he had a slow puncture during the race and was forced to change his strategy to a 2-stopper, which was significantly worse around Monza than 1-stopper according to the team.


The problem is that Maldonado is recently showing more improvement in avoiding accidents, than Senna in qualifying.


Not in the last 7 races.



Oh boy, talking about subjectivity biased. So in your view, because in the last race Maldonado qualified ahead of Senna and because by the first lap Bruno was ahead is not to his credit. I am please to inform you that race starts and first lap are part of race-craft I am not going to go race by race, but is has been apparent in a many races and shown by race results finishes, even though Maldonado usually qualy ahead, by race time this advantage is greatly diminishes or is overcome. Capitalizing on other's mistake's while avoiding making your own is also part of race craft. Finishing in the top 10 when the car is capable of "much more" is a highly subjective opinion, it has rarely been the case that on race day Williams were really capable of finishing in the top 6 in my view, maybe 2 or 3 races considering the performance for the whole weekend, not just qualy. Finishing the race 9th, 10th is certainly better than crashing out or finishing outside the points entirely, like it has often been the case for Maldonado this season.

In order to make your point, you seem satisfied to discredit Senna's consistency as mediocre, but I am sure you are happy to give all the credit for Maldonado's odd one out in Spain, no, that has not inflated Maldonado's points standings. You can't have it both ways, or else one could say that Maldonado's victory is mediocre considering the season overall . You can't discredit consistency and credit rarity. I am not sure how one can consider a myth that Bruno has been a better racer. You get all of Maldonado's qualy results and race finishes ratio vs Senna qualy and race finishes and it is a consistent trend that Senna is superior, I don't know a way around this fact. Bruno 10 points finishes vs Maldonado 5.

Now aside from this comparison, what is important is that both driver's have room for development, that is what is important going forward in my view and I would not drop Senna nor Maldonado for another unproven rookie. I believe that Senna going for another full season with all the Practices can improve on his gaps, I believe Maldonado also can and they both have kidn of complimentary skills, which is interesting.



#3862 Mithrandir

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 18:30

As a neutral party, I find Anderis' posts very convincing and backed up by real data. I completely concur with his unbiased opinion about the relative strength of the two Williams drivers. Maldonado is clearly the superior driver in ALL respects, even if he leaves a lot to be desired himself. On the other hand I clearly see bias and favoritism on behalf of Senna's fans here. Distortion of reality at its finest: "Senna has good race-craft"...Really? Any objective F1 viewer would find this statement questionable, based on his race performance so far. He can't pass and gets passed easily. He is usually a lot slower than his teammate. He rarely takes the same line through a corner, misses a hell of a lot of apexes. In short, he shows all the signs of an inept pay driver.

Edited by Mithrandir, 20 November 2012 - 19:04.


#3863 Flyhigh

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:57

Yeah, Senna can't pass. He often qualy 12-14, has been involved in some race incidents which he had to go to the back of the grid, yet he has 10 point finishes, 4 in the top 8, wonder how he manages to do it without passing anybody, quite neutral indeed.

#3864 Anderis

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 13:59

Oh boy, talking about subjectivity biased. So in your view, because in the last race Maldonado qualified ahead of Senna and because by the first lap Bruno was ahead is not to his credit. I am please to inform you that race starts and first lap are part of race-craft

I'm not pleased to inform you that I've never written it's not Bruno's credit that he was ahead after 1st lap.
The point which you obviously missed is that qualifying isn't the only thing in which Bruno is inferior to Pastor, as some people try to suggest. You could see it this time: Bruno qualified just one place behind Pastor, was ahead of him on lap1 which ensured him he is not badly affected by his qualifying performance compared to Maldonado, yet Pastor was the one who finished the race higher. If Bruno's racecraft would be superior compared to Pastor, he shouldn't have any problem with bringing higher position home in this case.

I am not going to go race by race, but is has been apparent in a many races and shown by race results finishes, even though Maldonado usually qualy ahead, by race time this advantage is greatly diminishes or is overcome.

Maybe you should go race by race because it's the only thing which can make your claims credible. I've not realised any scheme like that. There were some races in which Senna looked comparable or slightly better than Pastor at some point. But it was not a scheme, and moreover, it was happening more ofter when Senna was relatively close to Pastor on the grid, rarely if anytime when Pastor was more than 5 places higher on the grid.
I've also shown you that Maldonado usually did better considering the circumstances, if he had lower grid position than Bruno.

The thing that made Bruno look not that bad is that Pastor was ultracrasher and usually was spoiling his own races by stupid mistakes after showing decent to outstanding race pace.

Capitalizing on other's mistake's while avoiding making your own is also part of race craft.

Yes, it is. There are two problems with it. First is that Bruno has made plenty of mistakes this season (you can go to my earlier posts and read if you wish, I'm not going to repeat the same points all the time because somebody wants to miss them). Second is that Bruno has the car which is good enough to fight for decent points in most of the races so he shouldn't be in need to capitalise from other's problems to score 10th place.

Finishing in the top 10 when the car is capable of "much more" is a highly subjective opinion, it has rarely been the case that on race day Williams were really capable of finishing in the top 6 in my view, maybe 2 or 3 races considering the performance for the whole weekend, not just qualy.

Opposed to you, I'm ready to analyse race by race. We're searching for races where Williams were capable of top6 finish, because it is the number you've chosen. So we have:
Australia: Obvious top6 capability, because Pastor crashed from p6 last lap. He could be comfortably on p5 or fight for p4 if he hasn't made another mistake earlier in the race when he ran too wide, lost 7 seconds and position to Webber.
Malaysia: Obvious top6 capability, because Bruno has finished 6th. Could be even much better, because he spun on lap1 and then was lapping slightly slower than Maldonado who was also involved in several accidents.
Bahrain: Despite starting from 21st, Maldonado was running 8th by the middle of the race before his tyre punctured. He was 5th fastest driver on the circuit. Certainly able to fight for top6 if not mechanical problems in qualu.
Spain: No need to explain.
Monaco: Maldonado's pace throughout the weekend suggest that top6 was achievable. He has lost a chance for a top5 place in qualifying due to traffic in Q3, but he was very quick earlier. Then penalised and crashed on lap1
Europe: Maldonado crashed while figthing for P3 2 laps to go. Obvious top6 capability.
Belgium: Maldonado qualified 3rd. I fail to see why top6 couldn't be available with such a magnificent quali performance. He was quick all the weekend and there were no special circumstances which would make his Q3 pace irrelevant compared to race pace.
Singapore: Around lap27-28 Maldonado was running 3rd lapping faster than Button who was ahead of him. He decided to pit stop for option tyres in order to make an undercut. Then SC ruined his strategy but it was irrelevant since he needed to retire due to car's problem.
Abu Dhabi: Maldonado finished 5th despite failed KERS. Before his KERS failed, he had been quicker than Alonso, so even 2nd was possible with KERS working.

Then you coulld see that in Germany, Great Britain, United States and India the car was also very close to top6 performance. Hard to judge were exactly the car should finish, because in Germany and Great Britain Maldonado retired early and in India and United States both drivers were not where they should have been after lap1, loosing time in traffic behind slower cars.


Finishing the race 9th, 10th is certainly better than crashing out or finishing outside the points entirely, like it has often been the case for Maldonado this season.

Yes it is better. But it's not good enough, especially when Maldonado still managed to outscore Bruno pretty comfortably.

In order to make your point, you seem satisfied to discredit Senna's consistency as mediocre, but I am sure you are happy to give all the credit for Maldonado's odd one out in Spain, no, that has not inflated Maldonado's points standings. You can't have it both ways, or else one could say that Maldonado's victory is mediocre considering the season overall . You can't discredit consistency and credit rarity.

The fact that Maldonado was inconsistent by making mistakes doesn't make Senna consistent just because he has made less obvious mistakes.

You get all of Maldonado's qualy results and race finishes ratio vs Senna qualy and race finishes and it is a consistent trend that Senna is superior, I don't know a way around this fact. Bruno 10 points finishes vs Maldonado 5.

Maldonado 45 points vs Senna 31 points. You don't get points for qualifying. Pastor also had more points lost due to bad luck. It is Senna's problem that Maldonado only needed to deliver in 2 races to better his scoring achievements from all season. It's neither sign of consistency or race-craft superiority from Bruno.

#3865 Flyhigh

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 02:15

Ok Anderis,

I don't really like this discussion because it was never my intention to defend and claim that Bruno has been a great driver overall. The only reason I got drag into this is seeing Maldonado been compared so favorably in regards to him as if it was redeeming, which in my view is not the case. Both drivers have not been good enough or delivered close to 100% of what Williams could have delivered this season.

1 Sebastian Vettel German Red Bull Racing-Renault 273
2 Fernando Alonso Spanish Ferrari 260
3 Kimi Räikkönen Finnish Lotus-Renault 206
4 Lewis Hamilton British McLaren-Mercedes 190
5 Mark Webber Australian Red Bull Racing-Renault 167
6 Jenson Button British McLaren-Mercedes 163
7 Felipe Massa Brazilian Ferrari 107
8 Romain Grosjean French Lotus-Renault 96
9 Nico Rosberg German Mercedes 93
10 Sergio Perez Mexican Sauber-Ferrari 66
11 Kamui Kobayashi Japanese Sauber-Ferrari 58
12 Nico Hulkenberg German Force India-Mercedes 53
13 Paul di Resta British Force India-Mercedes 46
14 Pastor Maldonado Venezuelan Williams-Renault 45
15 Michael Schumacher German Mercedes 43
16 Bruno Senna Brazilian Williams-Renault 31


This is the clear picture and for the majority of the races Williams has average an 8-12 package and better at times, so the guys should be in there in the standings. I do see clear room for improvement in the areas I mentioned before for both of them, I believe they got their act together more towards the end of the season and I don't believe going with a fresh unproven roockie would be the best course for Williams right now.

I am not going to drag the comparison dicussion anymore, I believe comparing who has been the "less dirty" this season is mostly pointless.

Edited by Flyhigh, 22 November 2012 - 02:21.


#3866 joora

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 17:07

This is the clear picture and for the majority of the races Williams has average an 8-12 package and better at times, so the guys should be in there in the standings. I do see clear room for improvement in the areas I mentioned before for both of them, I believe they got their act together more towards the end of the season and I don't believe going with a fresh unproven roockie would be the best course for Williams right now.


I think that this season has proved that, with such small gaps between car performance, a driver can make all the difference. I wouldn't regard Senna as a bad driver, I think he can put the car in it's place (or a bit below the car capabilities on some occasions). That only means that Pastor can extract 110% from the car, especially during qualifying. Now, I think it is in Williams best interest to find a driver with similar capabilities (only more consistent) for the next season. Since Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen are not available, thier best bet would be risk with a fresh rookie like Bottas, which has been proven to be fast. What could they loose if he proves to be a complete dud? It would be really hard for them to finish below 8th place in the WCC.

#3867 Lord Snooty

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 02:33

10 place grid penalty for Pastor!!!! :mad: Either the team or the driver screwed up and caused the weighbridge to be missed. Seriously, another entirely avoidable own goal. :mad:

#3868 Lord Snooty

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 16:39

Bruno :mad: but what happened to Pastor?

#3869 BoschKurve

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 16:47

Who knows, who cares at this point.

Shitty ending to the season for Williams.

Well Senna is gone so in spite of my skepticism regarding Bottas, hope he gets off to a flying start with the FW-35 in Australia. He can't do any worse than Bruno did, and he probably won't the more I think about it. Fitting finish to his F1 career, a shunt to put the final nail in on the underachieving casket.

Hopefully 2013 will improve on 2012.

#3870 midgrid

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 23:30

Bruno :mad: but what happened to Pastor?


I saw Maldonado's car in the wall at Turn Three during the early laps, but the reason why was missed entirely by the FOM director. Did anyone else happen to see what transpired?


#3871 karne

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 00:06

Poor Bruno, I was hoping he'd get a great race, but instead he gets turned across by an impatient brat within the first few corners and is punted out in an accident that was never his fault.

What did happen to Maldo? Anyone?

#3872 Disgrace

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 00:11

I saw Maldonado's car in the wall at Turn Three during the early laps, but the reason why was missed entirely by the FOM director. Did anyone else happen to see what transpired?


We had an excellent start moving up several places but unfortunately I lost the rear of the car at Turn 3. It was a slippery surface and there wasn’t much grip which caught us by surprise at the beginning. There wasn’t much we could do so we were unlucky today.



#3873 Kyo

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 00:18

unlucky... :rotfl:

#3874 BoschKurve

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:02

unlucky... :rotfl:


Story of my life with Pastor.

So when is Bottas getting confirmed? I was half expecting with Pastor and Bruno both out within 2 laps, that we'd get a press announcement right then and there. :lol:

#3875 TFLB

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:53

I read somewhere that Maldonado hit some debris from his teammate's crash which helped his spin. Anyway, very disappointing from Williams' drivers today.

#3876 Vesuvius

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:04

Story of my life with Pastor.

So when is Bottas getting confirmed? I was half expecting with Pastor and Bruno both out within 2 laps, that we'd get a press announcement right then and there. :lol:


Bottas to be announced wednesday according to MTV3.

#3877 Bleu

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:44

Poor Bruno, I was hoping he'd get a great race, but instead he gets turned across by an impatient brat within the first few corners and is punted out in an accident that was never his fault.

What did happen to Maldo? Anyone?


Posted Image

His car was seen on the background at the backstraight on lap 3.



#3878 EVO2

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:19

As a long term Williams follower it's been a tragedy to watch a good car wasted on these two jokers. Maldonado's 10 place penalty was the final straw. If I were Sir Frank I would think long and hard before giving Maldonado the benefit of the doubt but replacing Senna is a no-brainier..

If finances allowed I would replace both of them but with one seat available surely the evidence of 2012 should make it obvious that they should play safe and go for one experienced driver : it looks like there will be shortly be another Finn available........

#3879 PayasYouRace

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:43

The cameras completely missed what happened to Pastor. Bit of low way to end what was such a promising season. Interlagos doesn't seem to have been a happy hunting ground for the team since Montoya's victory.

On to 2013 then. Hopefully the guys can build on what was a pretty good car this year.

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#3880 hogstar

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 19:10

I think Maldonado's win, his qualifying and of course, the money he brings will keep him for another season and it least it shows he can win races and he is quick. Whereas Bruno hasn't shown that he can win races, qualify well and be quick.

As a lifelong Williams fan, I think many others would of took what happened this season at the start of the year after a diabolical 2011, but as a previous poster alluded to, the drivers haven't covered themselves in glory in a car that should of scored more points with it's line up.

Let's hope next year Pastor keeps his sometimes awesome speed with much fewer mistakes - I'm sure Frank and Co will be reminding him of how good he can be when he gets it right. If Senna does end up at Caterham, he might as well retire as that team are going nowhere -I'll be surprised if they are in F1 in three years time unless some miracle happens.

#3881 joora

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 15:35

As a long term Williams follower it's been a tragedy to watch a good car wasted on these two jokers. Maldonado's 10 place penalty was the final straw. If I were Sir Frank I would think long and hard before giving Maldonado the benefit of the doubt but replacing Senna is a no-brainier..



I wouldn't blame that 10 place penalty soley on Maldonado.


Anyway, it's Maldonado and Bottas for next year! Can't wait for the next season, I think it will be a great pairing. Bottass seems like a more calculated driver, it will be interesting watching them push each other forward.





#3882 Tiakumosan

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 17:38

It was kind of clear that Bottas would step in since his 15 FP sessions.

I remember Bottas run on GP2, but can't remeber if he was very very good, or is he getting the drive because of Wolf or sponsorships?

Anyways, good luck to him, maldo and all the team next year :up:

#3883 autosportfan

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 19:47

It was kind of clear that Bottas would step in since his 15 FP sessions.

I remember Bottas run on GP2, but can't remeber if he was very very good, or is he getting the drive because of Wolf or sponsorships?

Anyways, good luck to him, maldo and all the team next year :up:


His sponsorship is a fraction of what Senna would offer so it s about talent ...


#3884 GustavoB

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 22:58

His sponsorship is a fraction of what Senna would offer so it s about talent ...

2/3 is a fraction.

#3885 Little Leaf

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 07:09

It will be interesting to see how bare/plain the car looks next year. If Bottas has brought some sponsorship it should help to offset Gillette etc leaving.



#3886 joora

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 08:52

It will be interesting to see how bare/plain the car looks next year. If Bottas has brought some sponsorship it should help to offset Gillette etc leaving.


I wouldn't worry too much in advance. The car and the drivers recieved much more TV and media coverage than last year - even regardless of the win in Spain.

There is revitalized scandinavian interest in the sport with the return of Raikkonnen. Bottas could be easily seen as his successor, and therefore could attract some sponsors.

Also, there is always the mistery of Quatar sponsorship, maybe now that they saw that Williams is able to produce a GP winning car, they will jump in.


In the worst case scenario, PDVSA is still the teams megasponsor and on them alone the team would be able to survive the year.

#3887 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:19

It was kind of clear that Bottas would step in since his 15 FP sessions.

I remember Bottas run on GP2, but can't remeber if he was very very good, or is he getting the drive because of Wolf or sponsorships?


He never did GP2, he did win GP3.

#3888 Hans V

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:21

In my view the drivers massively underperformed. Yes the win was great, but a car that fundamentally looked quicker than the Force India, the Mercedes, often faster than the Sauber (which also was let down by its drivers IMNSHO) and on par with the Renault and Ferrari on several occasions, should have scored a lot more points. In a faster car Senna should have scored on par with the FI and Sauber drivers, i.e. 60-70 points. Maldonado wasted at least 40-50 points, especially considering his many good start positions and should have had minimum 90 points. Not calculating points they should have taken from other teams this should have given them +/- 150 points – or 5th in the WCC.

The good thing is that they produced a really good little car. I do believe that they have got their organization and technical structure sorted. If so it’s a good sign for the future. They seem to have got the baiscs straight, finally discovered downforce, produced a solid neat car - and have found a direction in which they can proceed. Now they can afford to be a little more adventurous for next years car.

Another rookie doesn’t bode too well, but Bottas might be the real deal and possess the fundamental speed that Senna was lacking. Speed doesn’t seem to be Maldonados problem, but racecraft certainly is. Lets hope (although I’m not too optimistic) he have learned from all his mistakes, cleans up his act and bring the car home in good positions.

Hmm , maybe it’s time to consider buying some Williams shares? :cool:

Edited by Hans V, 29 November 2012 - 10:21.


#3889 Anderis

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:06

Hmm , maybe it’s time to consider buying some Williams shares? :cool:

The best moment bo buy shares was between the end of the 2011 and the start of the 2012 season.

About sponsors: Williams is supposed to be in negotiations with Honeywell about sponsorship deal. Unfortunately, also McLaren and Lotus are in talks with them so I don't think they will chose Williams. :( But there is a little hope they will.

Bottas will bring some sponsors as well.

And regardless of the fact if the car will be "empty" next year, Williams is going to have more money to spend in 2013. Bottas will bring some sponsors what will make deficit after exit of Senna's sponsors less than $5m I guess. This will be compensated by the fact that the amount of money which PDVSA pay to Williams is increasing year by year and that they will receive some more money for 8th in WCC instead of 9th like the year before. In addition, Williams have received a significant one-off payment for signing new Concorde Agreement, so their income for 2013 will be at worst about the same to 2012, but they will have plenty of money to spend thanks to this one-off payment.

I only wonder if having PDVSA as a major partner is affecting the interest of other potential sponsors. And if so: to what extent.

I was thinking of Pic as an alternative option to Maldonado and PDVSA backing. He did good job against Glock and he is believed to have around $10 m backing of his personal sponsors (who knows, maybe he could bring even more if he comes to a stronger team than Marussia or Caterham) and he could help attract Total to replace PDVSA and create a good relationship with Renault (more discounts for engines and a certainty of renewing the deal in the future if the team wish so).
At the moment huge PDVSA deal seems to be better option, but if it is going to collapse somehow in the future, this may be the way to go. :)

#3890 DESCHAIN

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 11:45

The cameras completely missed what happened to Pastor

http://www.youtube.c...layer_embedded#!

Arround 1:30 mark.

#3891 Kyo

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 13:33

http://www.youtube.c...layer_embedded#!

Arround 1:30 mark.

Ahhh, Maldonado just been Maldonado!

#3892 Tiakumosan

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 15:41

He never did GP2, he did win GP3.


Hmm ... must have confused with somebody else. :up:

#3893 firebone

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 17:21

I really would have liked to see what Rubens would have done with this car...

#3894 TFLB

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 17:41

I really would have liked to see what Rubens would have done with this car...

About the same as Senna probably.

#3895 Anderis

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 17:52

About the same as Senna probably.

Don't be kidding.

Maldonado would have scored about 100-110 points if he could keep his pace and make no mistakes. And that was achieveable with plenty of technical problems (more than in Senna's car, some of them were in crucial races like Singapore).

In 2011 Rubens' speed was about the same with Pastor's. We can assume Pastor has improved a bit, but no way he has improved to that extent to dominate Rubens just like he did with Senna. Assuming Rubens' speed was just slightly off Pastor's and that he screwed about 2-3 races due to his mistakes (it doesn't seem to be more than his average in recent years), 70-80 points is what he would have achieved in slightly pessimistic case. But could be well more than 100 points as well if he had some luck with reliability and could benefit from Pastor's failures and brain fades in those races when Maldonado was competitive but scored no points.

#3896 midgrid

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 20:48

http://www.youtube.c...layer_embedded#!

Arround 1:30 mark.


Thanks, I was hoping something like this would turn up! :up:


#3897 ViMaMo

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:51

2011 car had zero strengths. And I dont think Rubens could have matched Pastor on Saturdays all the time in 2012.

#3898 Little Leaf

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:36

Good pairing for next year now that Bottas has been confirmed.

Will be good to see what the team can do in their second year with the Renault

#3899 BrokenBaculum

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 15:42

About sponsors: Williams is supposed to be in negotiations with Honeywell about sponsorship deal. Unfortunately, also McLaren and Lotus are in talks with them so I don't think they will chose Williams. :( But there is a little hope they will.


It seems Lotus have beaten everyone else to it, according to GP Diary on Twitter:

Posted Image

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#3900 darkkis

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:53

Q&A with Sir Frank Williams. It's mostly about the 2013 drivers.