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Williams 2012 - FW34 Renault


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#351 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 21:07

f1enigma reporting that some "closed" seats may still be open, and he's not referring to Trulli's seat (which is openly open!)

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#352 DanardiF1

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 21:12

f1enigma reporting that some "closed" seats may still be open, and he's not referring to Trulli's seat (which is openly open!)


If Williams have secured a deal with Qatar, that could place Maldonado's seat in jeopardy, unless they want both PDVSA and QNB on the car. I suppose they'll want all the money they can get...

#353 Sevach

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 21:38

iGNITION


Great read.
Interesting points, the Renault advantages (cooling should benefit aero), the blown floor and development routes, gambles on the FW33 (gearbox???).

If Williams have secured a deal with Qatar, that could place Maldonado's seat in jeopardy, unless they want both PDVSA and QNB on the car. I suppose they'll want all the money they can get..



Of course they are after all the money they can get...
Williams ain't dropping Maldonado to bring a "dream team" that is not really anyone's dream, more like, the ones available after everyone had their picks...
People need to get over it...

With that said i would go with either Rubens, the most experienced, more accomplished driver (the fact that he jsut seems obsessed with the number 20 is a negative) or Alguersuari, for potential and maybe marketability.

#354 GSF1

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 22:56

VB with PM next year, keeping RB around to support with leadership and direction, also gives him one last year to say goodbye, maybe the occasional Friday test to help with development and to use some of his experience. Maybe even give RB a race or two, thinking work it out like HRT did with luzzi and Dan in India. Rubens can also give VB and PM a good insight into what would is required to be a good consistent long term F1 driver. Bit left field, but not like they are going for a world championship, and to put Rubens into a car halfway through a season is a safe bet for a consistent result and an ok benchmark for the two young boys.

But for me hopefully Sutil and Pastor and Bottas as third to be promoted in 2013

#355 seltaeb

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 04:24

I can't stand Sutil, don't understand the Bottas hype, and would rather see Rubens in the car again. 2012 is a tough year to get on the grid. Wish they'd just allow 3rd cars. It's not like there are 20 extra drivers that deserve a grid spot... there's only like 5 or 6.

#356 BCM

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 09:48

I'd love to see a resurgance at Williams. I'm hoping for an improvement over the last few years as they'll have a decent powerplant.

The more good teams able to mix it up front the better.


#357 Francesc

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 09:55

I'm not convinced about Sutil, the way he drove this year (he only pushed hard when he knew he was going to lose his seat) and that his technical feedback is poor, doesn't make him the most appropriate candidate.

Rubens is a guy who likes to setup the car to make it easier to drive, not to make it faster. So he doesn't convince me.

To have one of those two, I would prefer Senna, at least he's young, eager to prove himself, and he hasn't been given a proper chance yet.





#358 race addicted

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 10:05

If Williams have secured a deal with Qatar, that could place Maldonado's seat in jeopardy, unless they want both PDVSA and QNB on the car. I suppose they'll want all the money they can get...


..I'm pretty sure they do. I rather think it's (the "re-opened" seats) about Marussia and/or Sauber.

Edited by race addicted, 17 December 2011 - 10:06.


#359 ivand911

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 10:50

I'm not convinced about Sutil, the way he drove this year (he only pushed hard when he knew he was going to lose his seat) and that his technical feedback is poor, doesn't make him the most appropriate candidate.

Rubens is a guy who likes to setup the car to make it easier to drive, not to make it faster. So he doesn't convince me.

To have one of those two, I would prefer Senna, at least he's young, eager to prove himself, and he hasn't been given a proper chance yet.

Senna, why I am not surprised! He is younger than Rubens for sure. But, not than Sutil. And he have worse feedback than both.



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#360 Anderis

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 12:31

To have one of those two, I would prefer Senna, at least he's young, eager to prove himself, and he hasn't been given a proper chance yet.

Senna was born the same year as Sutil.

Senna struggled against Petrov in races (in quali he has shown the speed but his racecraft was awful), struggled against Klien and even against Chandhock. He is 28, not 20 or 22. It's to late to give him a first proper chance. If you are 28 and you aren't proven driver, you will probably never be.

I'm sure both Rubens and Sutil are ways better option for Williams. No doubt about it.

#361 mprtc

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 12:36

senna is not a young driver

#362 Francesc

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 12:38

Senna was born the same year as Sutil.

Senna struggled against Petrov in races (in quali he has shown the speed but his racecraft was awful), struggled against Klien and even against Chandhock. He is 28, not 20 or 22. It's to late to give him a first proper chance. If you are 28 and you aren't proven driver, you will probably never be.

I'm sure both Rubens and Sutil are ways better option for Williams. No doubt about it.


He only started racing seriously when he was 21 years old. It's too late to give him his first proper chance? Damon Hill only started racing in F1 when he was 32!

Senna struggled against Petrov due to lack of km on the car compared to Vitaly. And at Hispania he was given worse equipment.

#363 One

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 12:39

I'm not convinced about Sutil, the way he drove this year (he only pushed hard when he knew he was going to lose his seat) and that his technical feedback is poor, doesn't make him the most appropriate candidate.

Rubens is a guy who likes to setup the car to make it easier to drive, not to make it faster. So he doesn't convince me.

To have one of those two, I would prefer Senna, at least he's young, eager to prove himself, and he hasn't been given a proper chance yet.

Interesting opinion.

This could be a card ti play. Just wondering if Senna's up and down carrief so far convinces FW ?
Rubens might not be the wild beast any more and the agree that Sutil my just cruise a whole year and blame 34. Suddenly he appear as a no go zone. This must be Good by F1 for Formula 1!

#364 marcoferrari

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 12:39

I'm not convinced about Sutil, the way he drove this year (he only pushed hard when he knew he was going to lose his seat) and that his technical feedback is poor, doesn't make him the most appropriate candidate.

Rubens is a guy who likes to setup the car to make it easier to drive, not to make it faster. So he doesn't convince me.

To have one of those two, I would prefer Senna, at least he's young, eager to prove himself, and he hasn't been given a proper chance yet.


Senna? Everytime he had a chance to shine (Belgium, Brazil), in race he did something weird... He just can t deal with the pressure while driving a car and the worse, he is no 20 years old youngster anymore...

Edited by marcoferrari, 17 December 2011 - 12:44.


#365 Anderis

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 12:44

Damon Hill was driving in F1 in different time.

Today drivers are starting younger and they're better prepared for racing before they get to F1 than they were 15-20 years ago.

In fifties there were several F1 drivers which were racing when they were older than 50. It doesn't mean that today the driver older than 50 can be really competitive in F1.

It's not an excuse for Senna that he started when he was 21. He didn't race when he was younger, while others did, so he hasn't a chance to be better than all those guys who were racing much younger.

28 isn't an age when F1 driver should've be given a first proper F1 chance. Give a younger driver a proper chance and if he is talented, he will certainly be better than Senna when he will reach 28.

If you're older, you're learning slower. When you're 28, you cannot learn all those things which you could learn when you were 20.

#366 orndorf

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 12:53

With all his money,sponsors and the Senna name,if he was any good he would be driving for a top team.

Only the smaller teams which need a cash injection have used him so far.To me his F1 career is finished.

Id like to see how Maldonado compares to Sutil,he shaded Rubens in his rookie year which is a very good effort.





#367 Francesc

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 12:58

Well, all the options that Williams have are quite depressing. If we could get a fit Kubica...

#368 Sevach

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 13:26

He only started racing seriously when he was 21 years old. It's too late to give him his first proper chance? Damon Hill only started racing in F1 when he was 32!


All the more reason to go for Alguersuari, he is 21 right now :eek:

For me it's either Rubens or Alguersuari, one if you want an experienced pair of hands (and Sutil, Petrov... you name it, haven't done enough to prove they are better choices than an accomplished veteran like Barrichello) the other if want potential and future.

Kubica would be very interesting indeed.

Edited by Sevach, 17 December 2011 - 13:28.


#369 Clatter

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 13:47

Senna was born the same year as Sutil.

Senna struggled against Petrov in races (in quali he has shown the speed but his racecraft was awful), struggled against Klien and even against Chandhock. He is 28, not 20 or 22. It's to late to give him a first proper chance. If you are 28 and you aren't proven driver, you will probably never be.

I'm sure both Rubens and Sutil are ways better option for Williams. No doubt about it.


Damon Hill was 32 before he broke into F1 and went on to be WDC. I'm not a Senna fan, but like many of the new drivers at the moment he hasn't really been given a fair chance to prove himself. It's partly down to the lack of testing and a great deal to do with the revolving door attitude towards the drivers.


#370 intothepits

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 16:53

I totally agree and concur with Clatter. I love how people these days have a small minded view that just because you're not 19 or 21 that you can't all of a sudden make it.

Back in the 90s and even early to mid 2000s you would still allowed to 'make it' if you were older than that... and Senna could still probably make it, learn, and grow to become a very good driver if given the chance, as with any driver of his age.

This whole idea that a new F1 driver needs to be 19- 21 is rediculous anyway, and needs to be removed from the frame of mind from F1 followers.

With drivers these days staying in F1 in their early 40s and being fully accepted by official teams within the F1 sport (M. Schumacher... Pedro) Then drivers that are in their mid to late 20s who enter at that time fully deserve to enter at that time and also learn and grow. This happened not long ago in F1 aswell, back in the 90s and 2000s.

So seriously, get over yoursefl; people that think you have to be this mega young driver to earn a seat.. Please... Just get over yourself and that rediculous opinion of yours.

#371 Petroltorque

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 07:02

F1 has moved on since the 90s.There's no point in expecting an older driver to come good when his performances indicate that he plateaued or started to decline. Even Michael Schumacher, with his record has failed to match his younger team mate. The problem nowadays is older drivers seat blocking. I refer to Trulli, De La Rosa and Barrichello. We have seen what they can do. People will claim experience is important but the smart money will always pick speed. Race craft is an acquired skill and most setup is already determined on telemetry and simulator predictions.

Edited by Petroltorque, 18 December 2011 - 07:03.


#372 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 12:22

I can never understand why some people right off drivers just because they're not under 25.

Button's just had the best season of his career imo. Kovalainen started well at Renault, dipped at McLaren but is now very strong again at Lotus. Even Schumacher was much stronger this season than in 2010.

#373 Disgrace

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 12:29

I totally agree and concur with Clatter. I love how people these days have a small minded view that just because you're not 19 or 21 that you can't all of a sudden make it.


:up:

But with the junior formulae system as it is, kids must win everything first time out in order to move up the ladder as quickly as possible in order not to lose sponsorship. It's difficult to find an up-and-coming talent older than that, but it is daft to say 28 is too late. We have potentially three 40+ drivers in F1 next year.

#374 Petroltorque

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 13:16

I can never understand why some people right off drivers just because they're not under 25.

Button's just had the best season of his career imo. Kovalainen started well at Renault, dipped at McLaren but is now very strong again at Lotus. Even Schumacher was much stronger this season than in 2010.

If a driver is still delivering, he won't get written off irrespective of age. What's objectionable is an older driver just going through the motions. As for the suggestion that a driver deserves a drive just to complete 20 years, that has to be a joke.

Edited by Petroltorque, 18 December 2011 - 13:24.


#375 One

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 21:30

Is there more analysis on who drives how? Is Rubens driving like Bottas do? How about Senna?

Besides how ccial is 2012 for Williaqms and what is the goal in the WCC championship? Certainly, (I am so sorry) the team will not win WCC, but what function should williams give drivers? Certainly beat FI?

#376 Little Leaf

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 07:31

As much as I would like to see Williams confirm who the second driver is before Christmas, it probably makes more sense to wait as there are almost no other seats available.

Make the drivers sweat a bit and maybe their demands will come down as time goes on!

#377 One

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:54

Bottas to dispatched to HRT gain experiences, Williams with Rubens-Malodonado, sutil as repacements or Sutil in place if he takes two year deal.

BTW how about car developments! Ah, normal that we hear nothing about it...

Edited by One, 19 December 2011 - 12:55.


#378 sofarapartguy

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 13:06

Bottas to dispatched to HRT gain experiences, Williams with Rubens-Malodonado, sutil as repacements or Sutil in place if he takes two year deal.

BTW how about car developments! Ah, normal that we hear nothing about it...


Gillan says the're doing ok :stoned:

#379 Sevach

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 14:50

BTW how about car developments! Ah, normal that we hear nothing about it...


Read the Ignition online magazine posted on this tread.
Quite a lot of info on what caused the FW33 to fall short, development paths, why Renault is better than Cosworth, progress stage on the new chassis... things like that.

Reading one of Coughlan's comments, specifically, gambling with vehicle dynamics for aero gain, think the FW34 won't feature the low gearbox that the FW33 had.

If Williams actually landed the QNB deal, they will be quite well funded for a mid grid team, it is just a matter of brain power.

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#380 One

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 15:32

Read the Ignition online magazine posted on this tread.
Quite a lot of info on what caused the FW33 to fall short, development paths, why Renault is better than Cosworth, progress stage on the new chassis... things like that.

Reading one of Coughlan's comments, specifically, gambling with vehicle dynamics for aero gain, think the FW34 won't feature the low gearbox that the FW33 had.

If Williams actually landed the QNB deal, they will be quite well funded for a mid grid team, it is just a matter of brain power.


Saw the link and even opened it. Sorry not be ale to read it. Just wanted to hear more about it. Thanx.

#381 Little Leaf

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:09

Read the Ignition online magazine posted on this tread.
Quite a lot of info on what caused the FW33 to fall short, development paths, why Renault is better than Cosworth, progress stage on the new chassis... things like that.

Reading one of Coughlan's comments, specifically, gambling with vehicle dynamics for aero gain, think the FW34 won't feature the low gearbox that the FW33 had.

If Williams actually landed the QNB deal, they will be quite well funded for a mid grid team, it is just a matter of brain power.


Was it ever cleared up if the angle the driveshafts came in at due to the small gearbox on the 33 was a problem? Sam Michael said that it wasn't but other "experts" seemed to think that it was

#382 KoezhVukotic

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:25

Was it ever cleared up if the angle the driveshafts came in at due to the small gearbox on the 33 was a problem? Sam Michael said that it wasn't but other "experts" seemed to think that it was

That may have been what Gillan was referring to when he said they sacrificed vehicle dynamics for an aerodynamic advantage that didn't work out. Would make sense as the gearbox and low end was what everyone was so excited about

#383 Sevach

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:42

No, he didn't go into much detail of what was the problem, he just talked about compromise in the car for aero gain, that didn't really pay off.
I'm just guessing what he means, but the only obvious thing i could think of was the gearbox.

I've also heard on different forum that the low gearbox+rear suspension assembly ended up about 20% heavier than a simple one with a tall gearbox.
Plus the fact that Red Bull has been very succesfull in making the gearbox narrower instead of lower, more efficient floor>beam wing apparently.

Plus, it is the last brainchild of Sam Michael , all the more reason to drop it :p

The gearbox in itself has been reliable, if they drop it, it's gonna be because it doesn't pay off in terms of performance.

#384 One

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 17:19

Still not sure what then will be the ideal gear box besides monkeying RedBull gear box. The box will demands car's aero solution as it is an integrated totality.

If Williams were to go ahead with its short nose that was exclusive in 2011 with 33, ... This was something which I was not sure about the whole season. It should expose leading edge of front wing into a raw airflow but at the same time if does lot less than a longer one for sorting the flow. I beg it will be back to a narrow low nose.

Guess what ...

#385 Sevach

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 23:14

Low(er) noses are mandatory in the 2012 regs.

The nose will be very different that's a certainty.


#386 Mastah

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 07:37

That's... interesting livery:

Posted Image

#387 Little Leaf

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 08:47

That's... interesting livery:

Posted Image


Making room for the QNB branding hopefully!

Strange that they haven't just used the 2011 though? Must be a reason

#388 PNSD

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:08

For a start theres a bridgestone logo =/

#389 One

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:51

Low(er) noses are mandatory in the 2012 regs.

The nose will be very different that's a certainty.


Front nose bulk head must be lower to make road observation capability of the driver better, but Scarb had his opinion that it will kink beyond there upwards again to sort flow under he car, much like ugly BMW of the last. I assume under side of the chassis will be raised like Mac, so hopefully it will be a boxy, slender chassis plus narrow lower ant eater nose...? STR side pods were interesting and down wash around the rear to be sorted out a la RB7?

#390 Sevach

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 11:52

I read that article, if i remember it correctly, Scarbs said that the rules allow it to go up again after the bulkhead but that would cause the air to detach from the nose, so it wouldn't be a good solution.

Coughlan has talked about possible nose solutions, and he specifically talked about what you said, low nose with a raised chassis.


#391 One

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 14:46

Nando's WDC winning Renault had its strange side pods, a twisted tear drop shape. Do you know if this was a greatest reason why the car was so bloody quick? Or it was more to do with deemed mass damper? Even though it Looked Like being not too efficient, that side pods with big undercuts and 3d bends must have been a efficient form for a car traveling at the speed of Formula One car. Almost all cars now have nice and smooth shape which is always more production of mind than a scientific result...

#392 highdownforce

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 15:25

Making room for the QNB branding hopefully!

Strange that they haven't just used the 2011 though? Must be a reason


Posted Image

This could be interesting.


Now a version from this year Aspire4Sport:

Posted Image
Posted Image


This is Williams stand on the Aspire4Sport event in Doha.

#393 FlatOverCrest

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 17:56

I would be very surprised if they kept the 'faux Rothmans' colours with Senna in the drivers seat...... too many ghosts with that one!!

#394 highdownforce

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 18:12

I would be very surprised if they kept the 'faux Rothmans' colours with Senna in the drivers seat...... too many ghosts with that one!!

Talk about that:
Posted Image

#395 Clatter

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 19:12

I would be very surprised if they kept the 'faux Rothmans' colours with Senna in the drivers seat...... too many ghosts with that one!!


I'd be very surprised if that would ever be a consideration. Ghosts are just in your imagination.

#396 Little Leaf

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 19:13

I will be amazed if Senna is signed, as rumours are suggesting. Didn't see that coming.

Not sure how good he is and I think Maldonado will fancyy his chances against Senna

#397 Sevach

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 20:14

Nando's WDC winning Renault had its strange side pods, a twisted tear drop shape. Do you know if this was a greatest reason why the car was so bloody quick? Or it was more to do with deemed mass damper? Even though it Looked Like being not too efficient, that side pods with big undercuts and 3d bends must have been a efficient form for a car traveling at the speed of Formula One car. Almost all cars now have nice and smooth shape which is always more production of mind than a scientific result...


RBR has tear drop pods now, going all the way to the floor... is this a better solution than a big undercut like STR had?
I will add something else, if they, Williams, plan to put the exhausts in the position they ran it at the young drivers test it kills the possibility of going with Mclaren like L pods.

I'm also surprised at all this Senna talk, never thought he was a front runner honestly.

#398 One

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 20:41

I'm not convinced about Sutil, the way he drove this year (he only pushed hard when he knew he was going to lose his seat) and that his technical feedback is poor, doesn't make him the most appropriate candidate.

Rubens is a guy who likes to setup the car to make it easier to drive, not to make it faster. So he doesn't convince me.

To have one of those two, I would prefer Senna, at least he's young, eager to prove himself, and he hasn't been given a proper chance yet.


This.

The second time.

#399 Sevach

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 01:40

Partially agreed, i think Sutil isn't the apropriate guy to bring a struggling team forward.
He delivered good results with a very good car in the second hakf of 2011, when FI mastered the EBD, but that doesn't make him the phenomenal driver some people seem to think he is.

I'm not so sure about Senna however, while i would like him to get a fair(er) shot, he is a gamble and, thinking logically, not what Williams need right now.

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#400 Little Leaf

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 07:24

So if Williams are looking at Senna does this mean the QNB deal has fallen through?