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Tyrrell DG016


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#1 fan27

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 13:27

I've always thought that the Tyrrell DG016 was a nice looking car and having seen 017 and 018 cars for sale, I was wondering if anyone knew the whereabouts of the 016 cars?

Did the Tyrrell family keep them due to the fact that they won the Jim Clark trophy, or does Paul Stoddart have them?

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#2 Gary C

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 15:25

Surely all the Tyrrells are in new homes now? I don't think I heard of the Tyrrell family keeping ANY cars. In fact, when Ken put 001 up for auction, wasn't it his sons who bought it?? Or something like that.

#3 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 15:46

I heard one was to be present at the 2011 Hockenheim Historics. No confirmation as I didnt go.

#4 MODE

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 17:23

yep :

http://www.gurneyfla...es/MAI33985.jpg



#5 macoran

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 17:28

yep :

http://www.gurneyfla...es/MAI33985.jpg

Was that the actual suspension ?

#6 Altitude

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 17:28

yep :

http://www.gurneyfla...es/MAI33985.jpg


That looks like a 017 to me.

#7 MODE

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 17:43

That looks like a 017 to me.


You're absolutely right :confused:




#8 MODE

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 17:45

Was that the actual suspension ?


yes, tested at the last GPs.







#9 funformula

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 19:32

yes, tested at the last GPs.


And therefore called 017B
Strange looking front push rod/damper unit indeed.

#10 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 21:45

And therefore called 017B
Strange looking front push rod/damper unit indeed.

I can't see the logic of this layout , surely it screws up the airflow in a very sensitive area ? And it doesn't appear to have much integral strength. Very odd.
Wasn't it's successor a monoshock design? The complete antithesis!

#11 MODE

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 22:12

If I remember well, in period they had hydraulic rams instead of the coil springs.





#12 fan27

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 11:21

Thanks for all the feedback. It does sound as though these cars are in a private collection somewhere. Perhaps Jonathan Palmer has one. I think that I've seen a Tyrrell of ever other year either up for sale or racing but not the 87 car.

#13 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 15:07

If I remember well, in period they had hydraulic rams instead of the coil springs.



No, they were just housings for Bellville springs with a hydraulic union stuck on the outside as an in-joke by the mechanics.

As for the commentary about the spring housings messing up the airflow... believe me, that was the least of our problems. The car was so tight that Alboreto finished Brazil with blood oozing from his elbows, and refused to ever drive it again.

Nigel

#14 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 19:39

And therefore called 017B
Strange looking front push rod/damper unit indeed.



Actually the 017B was a hybrid of the 017 chassis and the 018 rear suspension, bell housing & gearbox, and was raced in the first GP of 1989 in Brazil.

By the second race in Imola we had one 018 ready for Alboreto, but Michele didn't get it in to the race. Amazingly Palmer managed to qualify in the 017B, and somehow he was allowed to switch to the 018 for the race. With hardly any running, the balance wasn't very good for him at the start, but when the race was stopped because of Berger's huge accident we were able to disconnect the rear ARB on the grid and the car was much better balanced for the restart.

#15 funformula

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 21:34

Thanks for all the feedback. It does sound as though these cars are in a private collection somewhere. Perhaps Jonathan Palmer has one. I think that I've seen a Tyrrell of ever other year either up for sale or racing but not the 87 car.


If I recall correctly Jonathan Palmer owns 017-01, no idea if a 016 is in his collection too.

#16 funformula

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 21:41

Actually the 017B was a hybrid of the 017 chassis and the 018 rear suspension, bell housing & gearbox, and was raced in the first GP of 1989 in Brazil.

By the second race in Imola we had one 018 ready for Alboreto, but Michele didn't get it in to the race. Amazingly Palmer managed to qualify in the 017B, and somehow he was allowed to switch to the 018 for the race. With hardly any running, the balance wasn't very good for him at the start, but when the race was stopped because of Berger's huge accident we were able to disconnect the rear ARB on the grid and the car was much better balanced for the restart.


Nigel,
while reading your posts, I assume you were a Tyrrell team member. Were you still there in 1996/97?
If so then you may be able in helping me, tracing the history of my Tyrrell 025 car. It has no chassis plate and I´m interested which chassis it is.

Thank you.

#17 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 07:47

Nigel,
while reading your posts, I assume you were a Tyrrell team member. Were you still there in 1996/97?
If so then you may be able in helping me, tracing the history of my Tyrrell 025 car. It has no chassis plate and I´m interested which chassis it is.

Thank you.


Unfortunately I don't think I can help you. I was at Tyrrell as an engineer from mid 1986 to the end of 1991, when I was recruited by Penske Racing. I went back to Tyrrell for the 1995 season, and then rejoined Team Penske.

Nigel

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 18 November 2011 - 07:49.


#18 MODE

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 11:47

Nigel, what was the issue with the 017 ?

Edited by MODE, 18 November 2011 - 11:49.


#19 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 12:22

Nigel, what was the issue with the 017 ?


Where to start? It was a really pretty car when it was first rolled out, but the biggest problems were that the weight distribution was wrong, and the front suspension didn't really work - the front pull rods were almost linearly aligned with the rockers, meaning that there was negligible suspension movement, so the car didn't respond to mechanical setup changes. At the car's first test at Silverstone it came by the pits the first time by with the front wing flapping furiously, like recently seen on the Ferrari in India and Abu Dhabi, meaning we had to fit those ghastly support cables which were the fashion at the time because Benetton were running them. The car was lengthened with a fabricated bell housing to try to sort out the weight distribution, and ultimately the pull rod front suspension was swapped for the pushrod style shown in the earlier postings shown on this thread. Once Harvey Postlethwaite and Jean Claude Migeot arrived in August 1988 their focus naturally was all on the 018, which was an exquisite little car. The technical capability of the team changed massively over the next six months, but we were still not able to get the 018 ready for the first race of the 1989 season in Brazil. Harvey decided to mate the back half of the 018 to the 017 (hence 017B) so that we could at least get going on sorting out any mechanical problems with the transmission, and we ran it once at a Ford test track in Essex before shipping to Brazil. As I mentioned before, Michele Alboreto could barely drive the 017B because of lack of cockpit room, and after the Brazil race he made it very clear that he wouldn't drive it again.



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#20 MODE

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 17:16

Thanks, I saw the wheelbase was lengthened after the first GP but that didn't change so much the position on the grid for the rest of the season. The car looked to be more competitive for the last 2 races where the last suspension was tested.






#21 vekspeed

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 20:15

Looking through an old Autosport (18th Feb 1988) I found an advert by Tyrrell offering 2 of the 016.
Available for £80,000 with a DFZ or £40,000 without.

I do also remember seeing one on display at the Essen motor show in 1988, with the later 'Enrico Coveri' sponsorship.

#22 fan27

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 16:14

Vekspeed, thanks for your reply. I guess that confirms that both cars were sold and are probably in private collection now.

Nigel: As you were at Tyrrell in 1987, could you let us know what the 016 cars were like to work on? I remember that they pretty much dominated the Jim Clark Trophy and seemed to be quite quick in the hands of Palmer and Streiff.

#23 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 10:22

Well, I'm not a mechanic - at that time I was working in the Design Office (I didn't race engineer until the start of 1989). Non-mechanics weren't allowed to touch the cars, which was fair enough in the light of subsequent experience.* However, it was a very simple and basic car with a relatively spacious forward part of the monocoque. The fiddliest bit (as on all cars) was access to the pedal box area. It was not half as difficult to work on as, say the 017, which had a horribly complicated fuel cell installation.

The 016 gearbox was also old-school, with the ratios behind the diff, so ratio changes were much easier than on the 018/019 gearbox which had to be removed from the bell housing because the cluster was between the diff and the clutch - typically this was a 40 minute process from start to finish.

I only really have nice memories of the 016.

* The only thing Ken ever did to the cars was to check for full throttle by opening the slides and peering down the trumpets. On one occasion, about half an hour before qualifying somewhere in 1990, he took out a red plastic trumpet cap and peered down the trumpet while he whacked the slides wide open. The shock of this dislodged a few screws which had been placed in an adjacent red cap by a mechanic, and of course they jumped straight down the open inlet tract of the trumpet KT was inspecting. There then ensued a very tense 20 minutes while the Chief Mechanic, Chris White, fished around with a magnet to pick out a screw that was teetering on the edge of a part-open inlet valve. Needless to say, Ken never did it again.

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 23 November 2011 - 10:28.


#24 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 12:39

Well, I'm not a mechanic - at that time I was working in the Design Office (I didn't race engineer until the start of 1989). Non-mechanics weren't allowed to touch the cars, which was fair enough in the light of subsequent experience.* However, it was a very simple and basic car with a relatively spacious forward part of the monocoque. The fiddliest bit (as on all cars) was access to the pedal box area. It was not half as difficult to work on as, say the 017, which had a horribly complicated fuel cell installation.

The 016 gearbox was also old-school, with the ratios behind the diff, so ratio changes were much easier than on the 018/019 gearbox which had to be removed from the bell housing because the cluster was between the diff and the clutch - typically this was a 40 minute process from start to finish.

I only really have nice memories of the 016.

* The only thing Ken ever did to the cars was to check for full throttle by opening the slides and peering down the trumpets. On one occasion, about half an hour before qualifying somewhere in 1990, he took out a red plastic trumpet cap and peered down the trumpet while he whacked the slides wide open. The shock of this dislodged a few screws which had been placed in an adjacent red cap by a mechanic, and of course they jumped straight down the open inlet tract of the trumpet KT was inspecting. There then ensued a very tense 20 minutes while the Chief Mechanic, Chris White, fished around with a magnet to pick out a screw that was teetering on the edge of a part-open inlet valve. Needless to say, Ken never did it again.



Lovely story Nigel. :up:

The crux of the whole matter 016 vs 017 : was the 017 actually any quicker than it's less-complex forerunner? Or in hindsight, would it have been better to stick with the older cars?

It brings to mind the BRM P201 which after two seasons of 'development' was lapping the same circuit (Kyalami?) some 2 seconds slower...



#25 km1164

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 12:48

FYI
Dr Palmer has 016 and 018 in collection and i delivered the 017 to his warehouse to sit with his cars
i have 2 017 cars left for sale from the 4 i acquired
017 is a much maligned car but like warts they grow on you especially when you can swivel around in your chair & look through to the showroom to see them :love:
IMHO the last person to ask for an opinion on a race car is a race car designer !
I was having a chat yesterday with Peter Elleray by the time you hear what they have to say about cars you will take up sailing instead!!!

#26 fan27

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 15:43

Thanks very much for the info Nigel. The 016 must have been a strong design as it survived a few big accidents, namely in Austria, Spa and Palmer survived being put over the barrier by Arnoux at Jerez.

I'm glad to hear that Dr Palmer has one of the cars. The next time in the UK I'll have to ask if I can go and see it!

#27 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 17:45

IMHO the last person to ask for an opinion on a race car is a race car designer !
I was having a chat yesterday with Peter Elleray by the time you hear what they have to say about cars you will take up sailing instead!!!


It's true that nothing looks quite as old fashioned and unattractive as last year's car. But then, after a long time, they become lovely again. When I was at Indy this year I paid my annual visit to the museum, which had many "500" winners in there. Looking along the lines of famous cars I picked out various details and wondered why things had been done the way they were. When I got to the 1993 & 1994 Penskes (which I'd worked with) my eyes sort of relaxed as they took in completely familiar lines, shapes and details - things that I'd seen as I stood in front of those cars on many occasions in many pit lanes. A bit like putting on a comfortable old pair of shoes again. It was a very strange experience.

#28 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 17:48

Thanks very much for the info Nigel. The 016 must have been a strong design as it survived a few big accidents, namely in Austria, Spa and Palmer survived being put over the barrier by Arnoux at Jerez.

I'm glad to hear that Dr Palmer has one of the cars. The next time in the UK I'll have to ask if I can go and see it!



The really scary thing about that was seeing Roland Law at the factory the next morning after Spa taking a saw to the two destroyed cars to make one good one. The only way the team was going to get to the next race...

#29 ghinzani

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 00:04

Looking through an old Autosport (18th Feb 1988) I found an advert by Tyrrell offering 2 of the 016.
Available for £80,000 with a DFZ or £40,000 without.

I do also remember seeing one on display at the Essen motor show in 1988, with the later 'Enrico Coveri' sponsorship.



I can remember thinking they would be better off going back to last years car when this advert was running (for quite a long time in fact) - then again I thought they ought to go back to last years driver as Streiff was having a blinder in 88.

#30 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 09:22

The crux of the whole matter 016 vs 017 : was the 017 actually any quicker than it's less-complex forerunner? Or in hindsight, would it have been better to stick with the older cars?


It's a long time ago now, but I don't recall any discussion of this proposal at the time - the focus was on unlocking the potential of the 017. Note that this was the first car that was the responsibility of Brian Lisles, rather than Maurice Phillippe, and Dr. Mark Handford was responsible for the aerodynamics, so there was a natural desire to make it work. Besides, although it is a painful experience, you learn a lot from the bad cars. If we had reverted to the 016 without understanding what went wrong with the 017 then how would we avoid making the same mistakes on the next new car? Of course, in reality Ken steered around that problem by hiring Harvey and JCM. I think I'm right in recalling that the 017 used an engine with a lower crank centre line, so it would have been very expensive to convert back to the older spec to run 016s. All in all, the proposal never got put on the table.


#31 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 10:53

Besides, although it is a painful experience, you learn a lot from the bad cars. If we had reverted to the 016 without understanding what went wrong with the 017 then how would we avoid making the same mistakes on the next new car?


Good point. I hadn't thought of that aspect.

I had a quick look at AUTOCOURSE for 87 and 88.
In practice Jonathan Palmer was 2 secs quicker at Silverstone in 1988 but in Germany the improvement over 1987 qualifying was only about a second (despite a much longer lap)
Track conditions no doubt account for some of this difference as do improved tyres for 1988.




#32 funformula

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 18:10

As for the commentary about the spring housings messing up the airflow... believe me, that was the least of our problems. The car was so tight that Alboreto finished Brazil with blood oozing from his elbows, and refused to ever drive it again.

Nigel


Maybe a bit off-topic here but why did Alboreto left Tyrrell by mid-saison and joined Larrousse?
I heard rumours that there were some differences about the fact that Alboreto was a Marlboro backed driver until 1988 and Tyrrell had a deal with Camel for 1989.
But Larousse was also Camel sponsored, so this rumour don´t make sense to me.

#33 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 22:04



Tyrrell didn't have a deal with Camel until the French GP of 1989. As far as I know the root of the parting of the ways was indeed the fact that Michele was still associated with Marlboro, so Tyrrell acquiring Camel sponsorship mid season obviously posed a problem. Probably at the time of the rift Michele assumed he'd find a berth at another Marlboro-friendly team, and when that failed to occur then Larousse was the best option on offer. For sure the rift wasn't amicable - Harvey was pretty unhappy with Michele, for about 2 days, until Alesi showed what he could do.

I just remember Bob Tyrrell coming in to the DO looking for the latest Autosport to "gen up" on who Jean Alesi was. The first time I saw him I was walking through the workshop and there was this guy I'd never seen before sitting in the car on the setup plate, with these incredible, piercing blue eyes. It was a matter of "who on earth is that?", and the whole tone of the following weekend at Ricard was one of "don't worry if you don't qualify, we don't expect you to". Of course he drove a blinder...

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 29 November 2011 - 22:12.


#34 ralt12

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 02:38

No, they were just housings for Bellville springs with a hydraulic union stuck on the outside as an in-joke by the mechanics.

As for the commentary about the spring housings messing up the airflow... believe me, that was the least of our problems. The car was so tight that Alboreto finished Brazil with blood oozing from his elbows, and refused to ever drive it again.

Nigel


and the housings look like this (not like those with the exposed coil springs):
Posted Image

#35 ralt12

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 02:52

The crux of the whole matter 016 vs 017 : was the 017 actually any quicker than it's less-complex forerunner? Or in hindsight, would it have been better to stick with the older cars?



The 017 was marginally quicker than the 016, but the 018 was remarkably quicker (Note the difference at Germany, France...etc). Sure, there are some track changes, etc, but on the whole 017 was faster than 016, and 018 must have been a Godsend.
Posted Image

I believe 016/5 is in Mexico.

Edited by ralt12, 30 November 2011 - 03:24.