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#1901 cbbcisace

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 07:27

I was refering to the possibilty of Bottas replacing Karthikeyan THIS season.


Sorry, I mis understood your post, from Silverstone perhaps?

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#1902 Calorus

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 11:03

Sorry, I mis understood your post, from Silverstone perhaps?


Karthikeyan's Tata backing is worth a LOT of money... I don't anything will happen until HRT make a decision about the team they want to be. The Madrid factory is a statement of intent, but I don't see them committing to be racers before the end of the year.

I hope I'm wrong.

#1903 cbbcisace

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 11:06

Karthikeyan's Tata backing is worth a LOT of money... I don't anything will happen until HRT make a decision about the team they want to be. The Madrid factory is a statement of intent, but I don't see them committing to be racers before the end of the year.

I hope I'm wrong.


The TATA deal is around €7m, I fully expect Narain to see out the year to be honest, but not to be with the team next year.

I expect a driver next year that can bring a hat full of sponsors with them. i.e a Mexican/Argentinean

Edited by cbbcisace, 17 June 2012 - 11:07.


#1904 Calorus

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 11:21

The TATA deal is around €7m, I fully expect Narain to see out the year to be honest, but not to be with the team next year.

I expect a driver next year that can bring a hat full of sponsors with them. i.e a Mexican/Argentinean


The problem is that if they have real money, Williams, Sauber, Force India will have some capacity in there somewhere, HRT need to show willing before they be able to woo the biggest donors.

#1905 cbbcisace

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 11:27

The problem is that if they have real money, Williams, Sauber, Force India will have some capacity in there somewhere, HRT need to show willing before they be able to woo the biggest donors.


The next driver just needs to bring the same amount, Thesan Capital from what I hear are funding a lot of money next year for HRT.

#1906 mprtc

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 18:52

Narain Karthikeyan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Karun chadhok ( no comparision ) , at any given day

Narain has not been Narain we know from past years ... hope he improves and drive like he always did before

Edited by mprtc, 18 June 2012 - 18:53.


#1907 Petroltorque

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 15:02

What's going on at HRT? De La Rosa's accident looked like a component failure. The guy was putting in steering input and the car went straight on.

#1908 MustangSally

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 15:39

So PDLR is the worst imaginable driver? :down:


He's surely a useful guy to have around in a team. McLaren certainly thought so. I daresay he contributes in many areas. Think he was a good choice for the team at this stage.


#1909 cbbcisace

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 17:22

What's going on at HRT? De La Rosa's accident looked like a component failure. The guy was putting in steering input and the car went straight on.


Just driver error, no compotent error.

#1910 cbbcisace

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 18:17

Bit quiet in this thread recently :)

HRT are going around very quietly and since Monaco being on the same pace as Marussia and beating them on certain occasions.

#1911 MustangSally

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 18:53

Bit quiet in this thread recently :)

HRT are going around very quietly and since Monaco being on the same pace as Marussia and beating them on certain occasions.


I do look up this thread from time to time. I must confess, I am one of those people who didn't think that HRT would even start the season. No disrespect, but there seemed so little organisation in place. It would appear that the handover from Kolles was handled rather well.

In early press releases, Sala said that HRT would be 'taking a step backwards' this year. in order to regroup. (Understandably. it got a few laughs. How far back can you go?)

It does look as if Marussia has bigger problems at this time.








#1912 cbbcisace

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 18:56

I do look up this thread from time to time. I must confess, I am one of those people who didn't think that HRT would even start the season. No disrespect, but there seemed so little organisation in place. It would appear that the handover from Kolles was handled rather well.

In early press releases, Sala said that HRT would be 'taking a step backwards' this year. in order to regroup. (Understandably. it got a few laughs. How far back can you go?)

It does look as if Marussia has bigger problems at this time.


TBH a lot of people thought the same thing, the F111 would lap 5-6s of the pace and just be in the 107% rule so everyone thought the F112 would DNQ every race but the team have handled things really well with the amount of staff they have (80).

They hope to have around 150 by the end of the year so going into '13 should be the first year with a bit of normality.

Edited by cbbcisace, 23 June 2012 - 18:59.


#1913 handel

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 19:04

Anyone know what the longest run the team have done this weekend is in any session?

Valencia is also a heavy circuit for brakes, and I would have expected them to still be suffering here unless they got on top of the issue.

#1914 cbbcisace

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 19:14

Anyone know what the longest run the team have done this weekend is in any session?

Valencia is also a heavy circuit for brakes, and I would have expected them to still be suffering here unless they got on top of the issue.


The team expect to have got on top of the tracking issue as they have brought new brake ducts to this circuit.

Longest run I think was 9-10 lap stint.


#1915 handel

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 19:40

The team expect to have got on top of the tracking issue as they have brought new brake ducts to this circuit.

Longest run I think was 9-10 lap stint.


Ta, quite like Pedro so hope they keep it together tomorrow.

#1916 Baddoer

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 19:50

De La Rosa is faster than Liuzzi last year by 1.5 sec, and Narain is faster than old himself by 2 sec. That is a clear progress.

#1917 cbbcisace

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 20:03

De La Rosa is faster than Liuzzi last year by 1.5 sec, and Narain is faster than old himself by 2 sec. That is a clear progress.


Really? I didn't realise that! Showing good progress now, although I expect the team to be behind Marussia as HRT aren't bringing their upgrade package at Silverstone but at Singapore (Unless I am mistaken)

#1918 cbbcisace

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 20:15

Karthikeyan to "Endorse" Indian Tourism

Side note to this, says the F112 will have side branding on the cars at the Indian GP.

#1919 Petroltorque

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 22:03

De La Rosa is faster than Liuzzi last year by 1.5 sec, and Narain is faster than old himself by 2 sec. That is a clear progress.

The apparent improvement is down to the different tyres this year. Pirelli' E0WE rubber has greater peak performance enabling faster one lap pace.
From what I've read HRT are again marginal on braking. It will be interesting to see if they keep ahead of Marussia in the race. The marussia still has more downforce enabling them to avoid the tyre slip that kills the Pirelli rubber.

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#1920 cbbcisace

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 22:05

The apparent improvement is down to the different tyres this year. Pirelli' E0WE rubber has greater peak performance enabling faster one lap pace.
From what I've read HRT are again marginal on braking. It will be interesting to see if they keep ahead of Marussia in the race. The marussia still has more downforce enabling them to avoid the tyre slip that kills the Pirelli rubber.


Gosh I guess HRT can't get anything right the tyres make HRT 2s quicker not the improvement in the car :rotfl:

It seems the new rear suspension the F112 has got has improved it grip levels significantly.

Long runs, the HRT's where better than the Marussia's does that still come down to the one lap pace? :p

Just a sample below of Narain and Charles comparisons in Free Pratice:-

Karthikeyan Pic
L27 '48.0 L24 '49.5
L28 '47.7 L25 '49.0
L29 '48.3 L26 '48.1
L30 '48.1 L27 '49.3
L31 '51.5 L28 '49.0
L32 '47.8 L29 '49.0
L33 '49.8 L30 '48.4

Edited by cbbcisace, 23 June 2012 - 22:30.


#1921 wonk123

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 01:11

The apparent improvement is down to the different tyres this year. Pirelli' E0WE rubber has greater peak performance enabling faster one lap pace.
From what I've read HRT are again marginal on braking. It will be interesting to see if they keep ahead of Marussia in the race. The marussia still has more downforce enabling them to avoid the tyre slip that kills the Pirelli rubber.



Valencia 2011

1. Sebastian Vettel Germany Red Bull-Renault 1m 36.975s
2. Mark Webber Australia Red Bull-Renault 1m 37.163s
3. Lewis Hamilton Britain McLaren-Mercedes 1m 37.380s
4 Fernando Alonso Spain Ferrari-Ferrari 1m 37.454s
5. Felipe Massa Brazil Ferrari-Ferrari 1m 37.535s
6. Jenson Button Britain McLaren-Mercedes 1m 37.645s
7 Nico Rosberg Germany Mercedes-Mercedes 1m 38.231s
8. Michael Schumacher Germany Mercedes-Mercedes 1m 38.240s
9 Nick Heidfeld Germany Renault-Renault no time Q3
10 Adrian Sutil Germany Force India-Mercedes no time Q3

11. Vitaly Petrov Russia Renault-Renault 1m 39.068s
12. Paul di Resta Britain Force India-Mercedes 1m 39.422s
13. Rubens Barrichello Brazil Williams-Cosworth 1m 39.489s
14. Kamui Kobayashi Japan Sauber-Ferrari 1m 39.525s
15. Pastor Maldonado Venezuela Williams-Cosworth 1m 39.645s
16. Sergio Perez Mexico Sauber-Ferrari 1m 39.657s
17. Sebastien Buemi Switzerland Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m 39.711s

18. Jaime Alguersuari Spain Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m 40.232s
19. Heikki Kovalainen Finland Lotus-Renault 1m 41.664s
20. Jarno Trulli Italy Lotus-Renault 1m 42.234s
21. Timo Glock Germany Virgin-Cosworth 1m 42.553s
22. Vitantonio Liuzzi Italy HRT-Cosworth 1m 43.584s
23. Jerome d'Ambrosio Belgium Virgin-Cosworth 1m 43.735s
24. Narain Karthikeyan India HRT-Cosworth 1m 44.363s


Valencia 2012

1. Sebastian Vettel Germany Red Bull-Renault 1m 38.086s
2. Lewis Hamilton Britain McLaren-Mercedes 1m 38.410s
3. Pastor Maldonado Venezuela Williams-Renault 1m 38.475s
4. Romain Grosjean France Lotus-Renault 1m 38.505s
5. Kimi Raikkonen Finland Lotus-Renault 1m 38.513s
6. Nico Rosberg Germany Mercedes-Mercedes 1m 38.623s
7. Kamui Kobayashi Japan Sauber-Ferrari 1m 38.741s
8. Nico Hulkenberg Germany Force India-Mercedes 1m 38.752s
9. Jenson Button Britain McLaren-Mercedes 1m 38.801s
10. Paul di Resta Britain Force India-Mercedes 1m 38.992s

11. Fernando Alonso Spain Ferrari-Ferrari 1m 38.707s
12. Michael Schumacher Germany Mercedes-Mercedes 1m 38.770s
13. Felipe Massa Brazil Ferrari-Ferrari 1m 38.780s
14. Bruno Senna Brazil Williams-Renault 1m 39.207s
15. Sergio Perez Mexico Sauber-Ferrari 1m 39.358s
16. Heikki Kovalainen Finland Caterham-Renault 1m 40.295s
17. Daniel Ricciardo Australia Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m 40.358s

18. Jean-Eric Vergne France Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m 40.203s
19. Mark Webber Australia Red Bull-Renault 1m 40.395s
20. Vitaly Petrov Russia Caterham-Renault 1m 40.457s
21. Pedro de la Rosa Spain HRT-Cosworth 1m 42.171s
22. Narain Karthikeyan India HRT-Cosworth 1m 42.527s
23. Charles Pic France Marussia -Cosworth 1m 42.675s

DNS Timo Glock Germany Marussia -Cosworth

Red Bull, Mclaren etc 1 second slower, HRT 1 second faster! Ummmmmm don't think it is just down to the Tyres, they are 2 seconds closer to the fron than last year. Like someone else said, check how much quicker NK is, I think Luizzi would have been faster again

#1922 Petroltorque

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 05:59

The gap to the front has narrowed because the leading teams can no longer run the agressive off throttle EBDs, that was worth around 1s a lap. But the performance is still largely down to tyre characteristic. The leading teams arealready optimised on downforce so they make less gains. The the teams light on downforce this tyre means you can compensate for the lack of downforce over a single lap because of its peaky nature. Caterham, Marussia and HRT were all around a second faster than last year.

#1923 Petroltorque

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 06:09

Gosh I guess HRT can't get anything right the tyres make HRT 2s quicker not the improvement in the car :rotfl:

It seems the new rear suspension the F112 has got has improved it grip levels significantly.

Long runs, the HRT's where better than the Marussia's does that still come down to the one lap pace? :p

Just a sample below of Narain and Charles comparisons in Free Pratice:-

Karthikeyan Pic
L27 '48.0 L24 '49.5
L28 '47.7 L25 '49.0
L29 '48.3 L26 '48.1
L30 '48.1 L27 '49.3
L31 '51.5 L28 '49.0
L32 '47.8 L29 '49.0
L33 '49.8 L30 '48.4

AFAIK Free practice times are LARGELY down to fuel loads. If you get a chance look at the lap charts of the races and compare those times. I'm also not sure about your statement that this year's car is 2 seconds faster than last year. I'm sorry but HRT won't make REAL progress till they hire some experienced design staff.

#1924 cbbcisace

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 07:36

AFAIK Free practice times are LARGELY down to fuel loads. If you get a chance look at the lap charts of the races and compare those times. I'm also not sure about your statement that this year's car is 2 seconds faster than last year. I'm sorry but HRT won't make REAL progress till they hire some experienced design staff.



What I was trying to say is that HRT now are matching Marussia in lap times since Monaco and that the F112 based on lap times of the F111 last year it is closer to the front.

I do agree though the need 120 staff minimum to make a good start for the 2013 season.

Edited by cbbcisace, 24 June 2012 - 07:37.


#1925 Petroltorque

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:50

Let's see what happens in Valencia. If they can keep both cars ahead of Marussia then I'll admit they've made progress.

#1926 Prost1997T

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 16:48

Let's see what happens in Valencia. If they can keep both cars ahead of Marussia then I'll admit they've made progress.


Well, so much for that. At least both cars made it to the flag, I guess...

#1927 Wingcommander

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 18:10

They're having a tight battle at the back of the grid. The HRTs have been going well the last couple of races and Marussia seems to struggle a little. Especially in qualifying. In the race they seemed to be quite evenly matched but Pic managed to take better care of his tyres. Marussia are apparently gonna bolt on some new parts in Silverstone, but i have to say that the team isn't exactly known for getting a lot of performance out of their upgrades.

#1928 cbbcisace

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 20:52

They're having a tight battle at the back of the grid. The HRTs have been going well the last couple of races and Marussia seems to struggle a little. Especially in qualifying. In the race they seemed to be quite evenly matched but Pic managed to take better care of his tyres. Marussia are apparently gonna bolt on some new parts in Silverstone, but i have to say that the team isn't exactly known for getting a lot of performance out of their upgrades.


Karthikeyan and Pedro would have been ahead/much closer if they didn't have their 1 extra trip into the pits (drive through and tyres)

#1929 Petroltorque

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 06:05

Valencia illustrated the point I was making. There's no point concentrating on qualifying pace it it means the team's plagued withe tyre degradation. Thermal tyre deg is not a straight forward fix either.

#1930 cbbcisace

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 07:35

Valencia illustrated the point I was making. There's no point concentrating on qualifying pace it it means the team's plagued withe tyre degradation. Thermal tyre deg is not a straight forward fix either.


It's a big issue that they need to solve ASAP as the car can keep pace with the Marussias.

#1931 Prost1997T

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 10:18

Hmm, having looked at some race screenshots, PDLR was ahead of the Marussia at the point of the safety car deployment on lap 29.

#1932 cbbcisace

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 12:16

Hmm, having looked at some race screenshots, PDLR was ahead of the Marussia at the point of the safety car deployment on lap 29.


He was ahead for a number of laps.

#1933 Prost1997T

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 12:32

He was ahead for a number of laps.


I didn't watch the race itself, when did the extra stop happen?

#1934 cbbcisace

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 12:58

I didn't watch the race itself, when did the extra stop happen?


Narain got a drive through and Pedro until Lap 46 was matching Pic, but he was then loosing 5s a lap :(


#1935 understeer

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 17:10

What is a good race strategy for a team like HRT ? I would say...

go on full attack mode in the first part of the race with the softer compound. This will keep them closer to the lap times of the leaders and more time before getting lapped. When you are lapped go to the harder compound and do the conservative strategy. Any way when in blue flags you are not pushing the car as much and the car will also be lighter in the second half of the race.


#1936 cbbcisace

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 17:24

What is a good race strategy for a team like HRT ? I would say...

go on full attack mode in the first part of the race with the softer compound. This will keep them closer to the lap times of the leaders and more time before getting lapped. When you are lapped go to the harder compound and do the conservative strategy. Any way when in blue flags you are not pushing the car as much and the car will also be lighter in the second half of the race.


Yeah probably the best way to go until they get a more competitive car.

#1937 Petroltorque

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 17:31

The above strategy that you suggest would never work. The F112 is plagued with snap oversteer and that means excessive tyre deg. If you start the race with 150 kg of fuel and the option tyre you'll be lucky to last 10 laps. They need to start on the prime and switch to the option when the fuel load drops off.
Has HRT produced any car upgrades? I know they have fitted definite parts that had been delayed by their suppliers such as the front wing and j dampers but it doesn't look like they have any major upgrade in the pipeline.

#1938 joshb

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 17:36

Well they time their pitstop just before they are about to get lapped by a gaggle of cars, so if there's 8 or 10 cars within a 15 second (pitstop) window, they bring them in to avoid slowing down for them all, which is a good idea but also it could be useful on short pitlane tracks to make more stops so that they have new tyres for a lot of the race so the midfield only catch them at 1.5-2s per lap and hope they get a reasonable stint length before the pit again to avoid slowing down for more traffic. It keeps them going at a good pace for longer whilst minimising the blue flag time costs (which could be the difference to beating Marussia or not)



#1939 Petroltorque

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 18:10

Yes, I see your reasoning. It could work.

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#1940 cbbcisace

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 21:35

The above strategy that you suggest would never work. The F112 is plagued with snap oversteer and that means excessive tyre deg. If you start the race with 150 kg of fuel and the option tyre you'll be lucky to last 10 laps. They need to start on the prime and switch to the option when the fuel load drops off.
Has HRT produced any car upgrades? I know they have fitted definite parts that had been delayed by their suppliers such as the front wing and j dampers but it doesn't look like they have any major upgrade in the pipeline.


Upgrades was the new front wing, new rear wing end plates, special rear wing for Canada and Exhaust solution from China onwards.

They do have little bits for every race, but Singapore is where there big upgrades goes onto the car.

#1941 mprtc

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 12:17

great drive by karthikeyan ... well done :wave:

#1942 understeer

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 13:37

Well they time their pitstop just before they are about to get lapped by a gaggle of cars, so if there's 8 or 10 cars within a 15 second (pitstop) window, they bring them in to avoid slowing down for them all, which is a good idea but also it could be useful on short pitlane tracks to make more stops so that they have new tyres for a lot of the race so the midfield only catch them at 1.5-2s per lap and hope they get a reasonable stint length before the pit again to avoid slowing down for more traffic. It keeps them going at a good pace for longer whilst minimising the blue flag time costs (which could be the difference to beating Marussia or not)


I think HRT is confused with "Beating Marussia" theory. In the last couple of races they were neither running their own strategy nor covering the Marussia pit stops. I noticed that Pic was able to pit and come back with fresh rubber and do faster laps than Pedro and Narain while neither HRT pitted immediately. By the time one of the HRT pitted and came back they went from being ahead of the Marussia to 15~20 seconds behind Pic and in blue flags. So not only did they lose 20 seconds, they could not use the fresh tires as they were in blue flags.

I wonder HRT has a strategy person.

#1943 Petroltorque

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 10:51

Upgrades was the new front wing, new rear wing end plates, special rear wing for Canada and Exhaust solution from China onwards.

They do have little bits for every race, but Singapore is where there big upgrades goes onto the car.

I'm not convinced that HRT will produce any 'major upgrade package' this season. The approach of the present mangement is unconvincing in that they've failed to hit everyone of their targets this season including having a car ready for preseason testing.
I would have thought that HRT would be already looking towards 2013 car design by then, considering that they only have a staff of 75, not all of whom are engineers. You just can't run parallel programs with so few staff. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the FIA instigated a rule that all teams must have their cars up and running prior to the season opener.

#1944 cbbcisace

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 12:54

I'm not convinced that HRT will produce any 'major upgrade package' this season. The approach of the present mangement is unconvincing in that they've failed to hit everyone of their targets this season including having a car ready for preseason testing.
I would have thought that HRT would be already looking towards 2013 car design by then, considering that they only have a staff of 75, not all of whom are engineers. You just can't run parallel programs with so few staff. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the FIA instigated a rule that all teams must have their cars up and running prior to the season opener.


Didn't Marussia fail in their target as well? HRT aren't directly producing the upgrades, Holzer Gruppe are via the new Lead Designer in Madrid.

It would be intresting to know what other targets they have failed, the team have openly admitted they would be the worst team this year.

Pedro has said there will be upgrade so tend to believe him.

Edited by cbbcisace, 14 July 2012 - 12:55.


#1945 Petroltorque

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 14:32

Didn't Marussia fail in their target as well? HRT aren't directly producing the upgrades, Holzer Gruppe are via the new Lead Designer in Madrid.

It would be intresting to know what other targets they have failed, the team have openly admitted they would be the worst team this year.

Pedro has said there will be upgrade so tend to believe him.

Marussia are on target. Their first wind tunnel developped upgrade was a revelation. Glock finished less than 20s behind Kovalainen. That equates to a deficit of less than half a secong a lap in a car lacking KERS. If you consider that Caterham had also introduced an upgrade, that's some feat.


#1946 cbbcisace

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 15:48

Marussia are on target. Their first wind tunnel developped upgrade was a revelation. Glock finished less than 20s behind Kovalainen. That equates to a deficit of less than half a secong a lap in a car lacking KERS. If you consider that Caterham had also introduced an upgrade, that's some feat.


I do expect Caterham to pull away from Marussia again and plus I'm not knocking Marussia because it looks a good upgrade.

Will be good to see if HRT can pull the gap to Marussia once they introduce their upgrade.

What i was trying to say is what are these targets HRT have missed?

#1947 Petroltorque

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 16:00

Missing Pre season testing and not having their cars ready in Melbourne are two examples that readily spring to mind. I would be keen to know who the lead designer for HRT is and what is his/ her pedigree.

#1948 cbbcisace

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 16:14

Missing Pre season testing and not having their cars ready in Melbourne are two examples that readily spring to mind. I would be keen to know who the lead designer for HRT is and what is his/ her pedigree.



Well thats a HRT tradition isn't it? :rolleyes:

All I know is that Stephane Chosse, Sebastian Lamour and Robin Algoo are the senior people in Germant ATM.

#1949 Petroltorque

Petroltorque
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Posted 14 July 2012 - 17:46

Well thats a HRT tradition isn't it? :rolleyes:

All I know is that Stephane Chosse, Sebastian Lamour and Robin Algoo are the senior people in Germant ATM.

Aren't these individuals all Holzer employees as opposed to contracted HRT design staff?

#1950 mechadaniel

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 18:44

Marussia are on target. Their first wind tunnel developped upgrade was a revelation. Glock finished less than 20s behind Kovalainen. That equates to a deficit of less than half a secong a lap in a car lacking KERS. If you consider that Caterham had also introduced an upgrade, that's some feat.



If you mean the last race, you are in for a disappointment - Heikki's car was mangled by a TR (yet again) in the first lap and would have had less downforce than the previous race, a better comparison would be the times on Friday.