47 replies to this topic

[GMACKIE]

There has been some discussion here on 'dangerous' circuits. What is a 'safe' circuit, then?

[E1pix]

There has been some discussion here on 'dangerous' circuits. What is a 'safe' circuit, then?

By strictest definition, a "safe" circuit is one which never holds a motor race.

Beyond, the newest circuits are certainly safer. Though I like that for the competitors I want safe, for me the sex appeal of such circuits has been sanitized and took much of racing's fan appeal with it.

[DanTra2858]

There has been some discussion here on 'dangerous' circuits. What is a 'safe' circuit, then?

I will ask the question again, what does make a circuit Dangerous, is it rock or cement walls, bad run off area or no runoff area, slow, medium or fast corners or other compeditors ?????

Surly a Circuits Safety is only as Dangerous as to how hard the driver wishes to drive ie. if you drive slow there is less danger than driving 110%.

[eldougo]

Or you could rate a circuit by the amount of death on a track.NOW that is real tacky.

[jimjimjeroo]

Maybe just weigh the left over carbon fibre left on and around the track at the end of the weekend!

[Ray Bell]

I rate the hidden dangers...

Such as at Oran Park, where erosion always created a drop off the bitumen that would take a car by surprise.

[simonlewisbooks]

The Targa Florio circuit, mile for mile, year for year, corner for corner, was said to have the best safety record of any international circuit.
I think there were only 2 fatalities (correct me if I am wrong) spread over a 70 year history and as we all know there were no safety 'facilities' at all!
Now if you offered up the Madonie circuit today for an FIA circuit licence the inspector would probably faint after three corners.

But that begs a very serious question - just why were there so few serious accidents on what was always considered a 'dangerous' circuit, even in the 1920s ?

This was a long-lasting venue with long distance races mixing the fastest cars of the day (short of F1) and the most committed of drivers (Rodriguez, Siffert, Moss etc) with a lot of rather un-practiced amateurs in much slower cars and largely unrestrained spectators. It also had a straight almost as long as the Mulsanne.
Logic says the place was a disaster waiting to happen .

Could it be that the place demanded respect from drivers and a degree of responsibility that they would not even consider at a normal track with run-offs and tyre walls?

Is real safety the act of preventing an accident happening ? Or is it of reducing it's effects of one when it happens?

If it's the former, then having circuits that allow people to shirk responsibility, because of the latter, surely the basic theory behind so much of it is flawed?

Is the very best form of safety in motor racing actually the degree of self-preservation present between the ears of the driver?

Spectator safety is obviously an other matter but even that is largely dependent on there not being a accident in the first place, surely?

[GMACKIE]

I rate the hidden dangers...

Such as at Oran Park, where erosion always created a drop off the bitumen that would take a car by surprise.

A good reason to 'Walk the Circuit'......not as popular as it once was. I 'walked' Oran Park a few times, [south circuit].

[Tim Murray]

I think there were only 2 fatalities (correct me if I am wrong) spread over a 70 year history and as we all know there were no safety 'facilities' at all!

The Motorsport Memorial site lists 9 fatalities for the Madonie circuit - 5 drivers, 1 riding mechanic and 3 spectators (plus another driver in a recent rallysprint event) but it is indeed an amazingly low number over so many years:

http://www.motorspor...p;Search=Submit

[Lee Nicolle]

A good reason to 'Walk the Circuit'......not as popular as it once was. I 'walked' Oran Park a few times, [south circuit].

A few slow laps taking in the ciruit usually finds most of the pitfalls, and a few 8/10 laps find the majority of the rest.
I have ever only walked one venue, Collingrove the first time I ever went there as I arrived way early and had time to kill. And yes it is bloody steep! And one banzia run a few years later I found the finish line post was too close the the track edge so i knocked it down!! And yes It was moved after as it was about 6 feet from the track edge. Only cost me a corner on the car!

[Lee Nicolle]

All circuits are dangerous, or as safe as the competitors make them.
Though cicuits with tunnels, bridges with autments close to the track edge etc are more dangerous than most. And sometimes are the classic circuits.

[arttidesco]

Signs at all of the motorsport venues I have attended have advised me that 'Motor Racing is Dangerous', some circuits being statistically less likely to see fatal injuries than others does not make them safe. Safe might be tucked up at home in bed but even that can prove fatal.

Interesting stat about the Targa especially when compared to Le Mans or the Nurburgring for example.

[BRG]

Well, I guess those tracks on frozen lakes that are used for ice driving training are pretty safe, as they are surrounded by snow banks which slow you gently and also douse any flames. There is the risk of falling through the ice of course.

But even a circuit with absolutely nothing to hit can still be dangerous if there are other cars using it - ask Webber and Kovalainen about that, for instance.

The comments about the Madonie are interesting. Maybe that sort of circuit is more akin to rallying where you have to drive slightly within your limits because a driver's track knowledge is necessarily limited by the sheer scale of the circuit. Whereas knowing a track with a dozen corners intimately means that you have to push to the very limit to be competitive and then whoops, you're over the limit and into the fence/tyre-wall/barrier/kitty-litter/massive tarmac run-off area.

[Stephen W]

The Targa Florio circuit, mile for mile, year for year, corner for corner, was said to have the best safety record of any international circuit.

This was a long-lasting venue with long distance races mixing the fastest cars of the day (short of F1) and the most committed of drivers (Rodriguez, Siffert, Moss etc) with a lot of rather un-practiced amateurs in much slower cars and largely unrestrained spectators. It also had a straight almost as long as the Mulsanne.
Logic says the place was a disaster waiting to happen .

At Le Mans the speed differential between the cars and drivers was said to be a major safety issue. Maybe the Targa Florio benefitted by not having the massed start?

On the overall subject of safety it must surely be a personal subjective issue e.g. Sir Stirling Moss may consider Circuit A to be OK whilst Sir Jackie Stewart does not. The one thing that everyone must be thankful for is the reduction in the deaths of racing drivers however this is probably due to the car design and use of new materials in the construction of race cars. There is no doubt that more drivers are surviving BIG accidents so does that make a circuit safer?

[Russell Burrows]

There has been some discussion here on 'dangerous' circuits. What is a 'safe' circuit, then?

In my day a number of bike riders, including at least one woman, were sliced open and killed on the double row of armco that was placed immediately adjacent to the circuit at Amaroo's last corner. Bathurst, of course, was festooned with unprotected conctret walls and armco, again much of it at the circuit edge. Oran Park's concrete walls were notoriously dangerous. We've seen some photographic evidence of the trackside furniture at Hume Weir and Catalina Park.........

From a bikers perspective, it was never rocket science.

Posters who run the 'it's as safe as you make it' type argument have either always been on the safe side of the fence or have a touch of brain fade: people do crash into you, engines seize, brakes fail, etc, etc

Edited by Russell Burrows, 21 November 2011 - 12:41.

[Allan Lupton]

Could it be that the place demanded respect from drivers and a degree of responsibility that they would not even consider at a normal track with run-offs and tyre walls?

Quite probable. As a parallel, in the 1960s there was a four-engined airliner that had a reputation as difficult to fly, particularly on the approach, but its safety record was unmatched!

Is real safety the act of preventing an accident happening ? Or is it of reducing it's effects of one when it happens?

If it's the former, then having circuits that allow people to shirk responsibility, because of the latter, surely the basic theory behind so much of it is flawed?

Is the very best form of safety in motor racing actually the degree of self-preservation present between the ears of the driver?

Some of the most horrifying accidents have been on circuits like Indianapolis where a simple error like touching the wall can result in an out-of-control car being thrown into the midst of the following pack. Yet whoever first thought of those walls, probably expected that they would contain any deviation without causing much damage as the attack angles are so low.

[Rob Semmeling]

Could it be that the place demanded respect from drivers and a degree of responsibility that they would not even consider at a normal track with run-offs and tyre walls?

Perhaps, but there are a few things to consider: the Targa was held once a year wheras other circuits may have been used weekly or monthly. Also, at the Targa cars were let loose one at a time, i.e. no massed starts (edit: already pointed out by Stephen). The circuit was furthermore relatively low-speed, with one hairpin after another for miles and miles.

Frankly though, I'm not sure whether the word 'responsibility' is appropriate in this context. As I understand, the circuit wasn't even closed off to normal traffic during practice, yet many drivers lapped the track as race speeds all the same. With that in mind the Targa's relatively good safety record may be just sheer luck in combo with the above.

Edit: come to think of it, in many ways the Targo was similar to the Isle of Man TT, yet for some reason their safety records are very different. Maybe it's a motorcycle vs cars thing.

All circuits are dangerous, or as safe as the competitors make them.

Even a competitor who is very careful can be the victim of an accident due to mechanical failure. In that case he'll be better off on a 'safe' (modern) circuit.

Edited by Rob Semmeling, 21 November 2011 - 16:03.

[Russell Burrows]

Even a competitor who is very careful can be the victim of an accident due to mechanical failure. In that case he'll be better off on a 'safe' (modern) circuit.

.....and 'modern; shouldn't mean some mickey mouse layout full of 40mph corners and chicanes.

[simonlewisbooks]

The Motorsport Memorial site lists 9 fatalities for the Madonie circuit - 5 drivers, 1 riding mechanic and 3 spectators (plus another driver in a recent rallysprint event) but it is indeed an amazingly low number over so many years:

http://www.motorspor...p;Search=Submit

I stand corrected (as ever quoting from memory is a calculated risk in itself !) As you say still very low for a track that, on the face if it, seemed amazingly free of any safety considerations for so many years.

[simonlewisbooks]

come to think of it, in many ways the Targo was similar to the Isle of Man TT, yet for some reason their safety records are very different. Maybe it's a motorcycle vs cars thing.

The IOM is a singular case study of course as it holds very long races for very large fields and has done for over 100 years so the number of miles covered at racing speed x the number of bikes competing x the number of races x the number of years the course has been in use might well give it a better statistical 'safety figure' than many short circuits.

I'm not saying the place isn't BLOODY scary and offers scant room for error (and there's no way I'd every have had the balls to race there on 2 or 3 wheels myself) but in terms of death/injury per mile of action, an insurance underwriter in 'the city' might well conclude it was a better bet than most venues?

A lot of this, of course, is down to perception of what's dangerous (say fairground rides, when you were a kid) to what actually is dangerous (water sports, apparently!) I seem to recall reading that motor sports in general were not as high on the list of 'dangerous sports' as most of us would think.

[David McKinney]

... and there's no way I'd every have had the balls to race there on 2 or 3 wheels myself

OT - I note your careful choice of words. I would love to have raced there on four wheels

[Michael Ferner]

The Targa Florio circuit, mile for mile, year for year, corner for corner, was said to have the best safety record of any international circuit...

Interesting thoughts... and well in line with what I always thought about the Pikes Peak hill climb!

[Russell Burrows]

The IOM is a singular case study of course as it holds very long races for very large fields and has done for over 100 years so the number of miles covered at racing speed x the number of bikes competing x the number of races x the number of years the course has been in use might well give it a better statistical 'safety figure' than many short circuits.

I'm not saying the place isn't BLOODY scary and offers scant room for error (and there's no way I'd every have had the balls to race there on 2 or 3 wheels myself) but in terms of death/injury per mile of action, an insurance underwriter in 'the city' might well conclude it was a better bet than most venues?

Most of the races on the Island have been staggered start affairs - far less chance of people tripping over one another.

[alansart]

OT - I note your careful choice of words. I would love to have raced there on four wheels

I have (well not raced), but only at a legal limit in a road car and with my wife watching my speed and I would love to have a go in the Formula Ford.

In my racing days I wouldn't consider myself a 'brave' driver but loved the likes of Oulton and Cadwell for the absolute thrill of it, and on the rare days that I got my act together it was the best place to be in the world. Get out of the car and say to yourself "How did I do that".

Danger is an attraction, no matter how bad you can drive

Edited by alansart, 21 November 2011 - 17:09.

[CarlRabbidge]

OT - I note your careful choice of words. I would love to have raced there on four wheels

Having used up the last 30 litres of fuel in our rental car just a few weeks ago driving a number of laps of the circuit I have even more respect for the riders who master the place.
Just to compete there must take a tremendous level of determination and self confidence and television does not do justice to skill levels both from the riders and the engineers that the circuit requires to master bumps, camber changes , surface changes, moisture, leaves, shadows and the odd bit of dirt or loose gravel on the rosd edges and then there is the absolute speed you can reach on the down hill sections. Truely awesome place

For sure I would not like to try it flat in a race car but in a rally car, well that would be a different story. David McK fancy a ride in a RS1800 around there?

[Allan Lupton]

For sure I would not like to try it flat in a race car but in a rally car, well that would be a different story. David McK fancy a ride in a RS1800 around there?

This Subaru is quite good if you can put up with the chopping-about editing.

[David McKinney]

David McK fancy a ride in a RS1800 around there?

You're on

[Bauble]

Being old fashioned I believe that 'safe' and 'race track' are incompatible.

Motor Sport should be dangerous, or it is hardly worthwhile, so if you want safe. Take up snooker.

[GMACKIE]

Firstly, thank you to whoever 'fixed' the heading. There was a "There" there that should not have been there. That was really annoying me, but I couldn't alter it.

Good to see the reaction here......different ideas on safety and danger.

My memories of racing touring [saloon] cars 50 years ago, are of a need to be able to DRIVE THE CAR HOME, AND TO WORK THE FOLLOWING DAY. Never failed to do so. To-day's racers seem to think nothing of [deliberately?] bumping a fellow competitor, in order to gain an advantage. To my way of thinking, this sort of action is potentially quite dangerous, but appears to be accepted as "Motor Racing"........not by me, though.

[eldougo]

Sadly Greg those days of being a Non Aggressive driverso to speak, have gone forever and it win at all cost today.

[E1pix]

Agreed, etiquette has suffered with the rise of stakes, in my view. Not to mention that any consequences are generally walked away from. I personally find "bump racing" rather irritating and unsportsmanlike.

In the old days, you screwed up, you got killed in many cases. That gave pretty solid inspiration for non-contact. It seems to me that only karting and bikes still carry the consequences of days gone by, and that risk makes for better competition in the proper spirit, in my view. I've run karts that went maybe 120 mph on road courses, and I can tell you that makes you think of every move you make — in the grand tradition.

[Lee Nicolle]

Firstly, thank you to whoever 'fixed' the heading. There was a "There" there that should not have been there. That was really annoying me, but I couldn't alter it.

Good to see the reaction here......different ideas on safety and danger.

My memories of racing touring [saloon] cars 50 years ago, are of a need to be able to DRIVE THE CAR HOME, AND TO WORK THE FOLLOWING DAY. Never failed to do so. To-day's racers seem to think nothing of [deliberately?] bumping a fellow competitor, in order to gain an advantage. To my way of thinking, this sort of action is potentially quite dangerous, but appears to be accepted as "Motor Racing"........not by me, though.

While I have always been of the opinion thar race cars are trailered to the track and I would never race my everyday transport. I do agree that these days that there is far too much biff and barge. It starts at the top and works down and all these control categorys where that is the only way you can pass. And that is world wide I am sad to say.

[simonlewisbooks]

OT - I note your careful choice of words. I would love to have raced there on four wheels

Glad you noticed....me too!

[GMACKIE]

I suppose one could consider Bathurst 'dangerous', because a big rock could roll onto the track, in front of Dick Johnson. Most circuits are 'static', though, and don't suddenly change or move.

[DanTra2858]

Copy of VSCC Notice in their 1977 Oran Park Program Meeting 28/29 January, it tells it like it is.

[Lee Nicolle]

I suppose one could consider Bathurst 'dangerous', because a big rock could roll onto the track, in front of Dick Johnson. Most circuits are 'static', though, and don't suddenly change or move.

Bathurst is great circuit, and one I am sad I never raced on. But it is dangerous and will always be. And that is without Dickys rock.
It takes some of the banzia out of even Thupercar drivers as a wrong move can still have you over the edge, though harder now, and there is still a lot of scenery to hit. It has been calmed down, the dipper has been opened up etc.
The chase really causes as much grief as it was supposed to fix with cars getting nailed around the corner by errant ones across the sandpit. It happened a couple of times at the 1000 meeting. Plus ofcourse the huge rollovers and crashes that have happened there.
And no I do not wish to race an open wheler there of any sort.

[seldo]

Good to see the reaction here......different ideas on safety and danger.

My memories of racing touring [saloon] cars 50 years ago, are of a need to be able to DRIVE THE CAR HOME, AND TO WORK THE FOLLOWING DAY. Never failed to do so. To-day's racers seem to think nothing of [deliberately?] bumping a fellow competitor, in order to gain an advantage. To my way of thinking, this sort of action is potentially quite dangerous, but appears to be accepted as "Motor Racing"........not by me, though.

Ditto, ditto and ditto. ( Many was the time I sat in traffic in the heat of summer with the temperature gauge peaking and perspiration running down my face as I sweltered with the heater on full and the heater fan blasting as I had no engine fan...)

[GMACKIE]

Ditto, ditto and ditto. ( Many was the time I sat in traffic in the heat of summer with the temperature gauge peaking and perspiration running down my face as I sweltered with the heater on full and the heater fan blasting as I had no engine fan...)

Well........that's what happens when you use water to cool the engine.

[seldo]

Well........that's what happens when you use water to cool the engine.

Touche

[DanTra2858]

Russell, how would you rate the circuits that you have raced on from a Motor Bikers point of view from safe to unsafe.

[DanTra2858]

I will not debate on the HillClimb but this to me is the ultimate of unsafe racing, ref to Pre-War sprints and hillclimbs photos #108

[GMACKIE]

What's unsafe about that? There's plenty of padding in front of the tree.

[Stephen W]

I will not debate on the HillClimb but this to me is the ultimate of unsafe racing, ref to Pre-War sprints and hillclimbs photos #108

When I went to the Doune hillclimb course in 1971 I asked one of the marshals why only certain trees had straw bales tied to the face. The reply was I thought very logical:

"They are the ones that have been hit before!"

[Russell Burrows]

Russell, how would you rate the circuits that you have raced on from a Motor Bikers point of view from safe to unsafe.

Brands Hatch was the safest, by miles.

[Eric Dunsdon]

I will not debate on the HillClimb but this to me is the ultimate of unsafe racing, ref to Pre-War sprints and hillclimbs photos #108

Having ridden up that hill in cycle races many years ago. I would have thought that at the speeds being reached by cars and motor bikes, there wasnt too much danger involved. There werent any straw bales to protect us cyclists in those pre lycra/hard hat days!.

[Doug Nye]

For a 'safe' circuit might I nominate the enormous circular course marked out on the Bonneville Salt Flats and used by Cobb, Healey, Jenkins etc for very long distance record breaking. Other than salt crystals, more salt crystals, even more salt crystals - and the occasional course marker - there wasn't an obstacle to hit in any direction for MILES...

Of course, no doubt the possibility of getting sideways and having a wheel rim dig in would still have set any H&S pinkos' sphincters a'flutter...

DCN

[E1pix]

When I went to the Doune hillclimb course in 1971 I asked one of the marshals why only certain trees had straw bales tied to the face. The reply was I thought very logical:

"They are the ones that have been hit before!"

Love it.

[GMACKIE]

If you want to be 'safe', then you may just have to stay home..........although look what happened to 'Molly' Meldrum at home.