43 replies to this topic

[oldclassiccar]

Hi all,

Approximately 7 or 8 years ago I bought this old photograph, it's printed on heavy card and is very definitely of the 1960s. It measures approx 9.5ins x 7.5ins.

It turned up at a car-boot sale, on a general house clearance stall. The vendor didn't know who the driver was, simply that the picture came from a house clearance of a former journalist's home. It was the only motor-racing item on his stall, the rest was old household junk, this photo being propped up on an old piano.



On the rear, in pencil, there is the following inscription: "See you there in the end" followed by the name "Boyd", and "Jim".



Obviously I've heard of Jim Clark, and author/journalist Maxwell Boyd, but this is just me speculating in those quieter moments

I'm sure that whoever wrote this on the back, did it at a time contemporary to the image. If the vendor on the stall had been out to kid someone, he'd have probably scribbled something on the front rather than the back, using the driver's full rather than just his first name, and been asking a lot more ££ than he was. To him it was an old photo of a racing driver.

Looking around, autographs of "Jim Clark" are different to the "Jim" shown here, so I'm erring on the side of caution and assuming it isn't a note by JC. Or is it? Would a personality have one signature for fans, and another that he'd use in "the real world", for example when scribbling a note to someone he perhaps knew? It'd be interesting to see any handwritten letters by Clark, to see if any of the words in this note match with known writings by him.

I'd welcome thoughts on:

1. Who may have done the scribble?
2. Which car Clark was photographed in?
3. What the author may have been referring to with "see you there in the end" ?

Thanks in advance, I've been pondering about this for years. I'm not hoping to sell it, I'd just like to know more about it!

Richard.

[Vitesse2]

I'm prepared to be shot down on this, but here goes ...

The lack of yellow paint on the mirrors and back of the cockpit suggests 1961 or 1962. V8 Climax, in what appears to be a Lotus 25 - so definitely 1962. Car seems to be numbered 1. Jimmy only carried that number four times that year: at Solitude and in the three South African races at the end of the season.

[Gary C]

whatever the signatures are.................the pic was a nice find at a car boot sale!

[Graham Gauld]

Hi all,

Approximately 7 or 8 years ago I bought this old photograph, it's printed on heavy card and is very definitely of the 1960s. It measures approx 9.5ins x 7.5ins.

It turned up at a car-boot sale, on a general house clearance stall. The vendor didn't know who the driver was, simply that the picture came from a house clearance of a former journalist's home. It was the only motor-racing item on his stall, the rest was old household junk, this photo being propped up on an old piano.



On the rear, in pencil, there is the following inscription: "See you there in the end" followed by the name "Boyd", and "Jim".



Obviously I've heard of Jim Clark, and author/journalist Maxwell Boyd, but this is just me speculating in those quieter moments

I'm sure that whoever wrote this on the back, did it at a time contemporary to the image. If the vendor on the stall had been out to kid someone, he'd have probably scribbled something on the front rather than the back, using the driver's full rather than just his first name, and been asking a lot more ££ than he was. To him it was an old photo of a racing driver.

Looking around, autographs of "Jim Clark" are different to the "Jim" shown here, so I'm erring on the side of caution and assuming it isn't a note by JC. Or is it? Would a personality have one signature for fans, and another that he'd use in "the real world", for example when scribbling a note to someone he perhaps knew? It'd be interesting to see any handwritten letters by Clark, to see if any of the words in this note match with known writings by him.

I'd welcome thoughts on:

1. Who may have done the scribble?
2. Which car Clark was photographed in?
3. What the author may have been referring to with "see you there in the end" ?

Thanks in advance, I've been pondering about this for years. I'm not hoping to sell it, I'd just like to know more about it!

Richard.

I am willing to bet that is not Jim Clark's signature.

[Graham Gauld]

I am willing to bet that is not Jim Clark's signature.

And is not his writing !!!

GG

[Arjan de Roos]

Quite easy to see: no flag on the J of Jim, no loop under the y, etc.

[barrykm]

I'm prepared to be shot down on this, but here goes ...;)

The lack of yellow paint on the mirrors and back of the cockpit suggests 1961 or 1962. V8 Climax, in what appears to be a Lotus 25 - so definitely 1962. Car seems to be numbered 1. Jimmy only carried that number four times that year: at Solitude and in the three South African races at the end of the season.

Just a thought, I'm rusty on this now, but when did Jimmy start using a Bell helmet?

[arttidesco]

Just a thought, I'm rusty on this now, but when did Jimmy start using a Bell helmet?

Certainly seen photo's labelled Zandvort 1962 where he appears to be wearing a Bell, but then I've also seen photo's labelled Monaco 1962 where he appears to be wearing an older helmet.

Was it a straight swap from the older design to the Bell ?

Fabulous photo what ever the provenance of the hand writing

[Vitesse2]

If I'm right about the car number, then the Bell question is probably a bit of a red herring ...

[arttidesco]

If I'm right about the car number, then the Bell question is probably a bit of a red herring ...

I don't doubt your answer V2 just trying to answer the question about the Bell Helmet

[D-Type]

I read the text as "See you there in the end boyo!"

It may well be that when writing "Jim" it would be different from his signature. It might be the same "Jim" that starts his signature but it needn't be. The essence of a signature is that it is quick to write. If I sign something "Duncan" it's nothing like my signature which is D A Rollo written without lifting the pen from the paper. And an autograph if treated as professionally as Jackie Stewart and most Americans drivers do should also be recognisable as the driver's name and thus be different from his signature.

Why would anyone other than Jim Clark write something like that on the back of a photo of Jim Clark?

My feeling is it's a jokey note from Jim Clark.

Has anybody any samples iof Jim's handwriting for comparison?

Edit: I've just re-read Graham Gauld's posts and I realise that I have written total baloney! - Signature justification?

Edited by D-Type, 21 November 2011 - 17:37.

[Tim Murray]

My understanding is that the yellow stripe first appeared at the 1963 British GP, so could it possibly be from earlier in 1963? Clark had #1 at Spa.

[Doug Nye]

That - I think - is a Geoff Goddard photograph which was chosen as the front cover shot on the October 1963 issue of 'Motor Racing' magazine. When I saw it in a newsagent shop in the upper High Street, Guildford, it persuaded me to write to the magazine's editorial office, asking them for a job. They gave me one...and that is how the fight started, your honour...

I have to say that my immediate reaction upon seeing the 'Jim' signature was that it looked right... But that was without comparing it to what I know 100 per cent is a genuine Clark autograph.

DCN

[oldclassiccar]

Interesting reading, thanks all!

Having looked at images of confirmed JC signatures, I'd noticed that the sign-off above was different to them, which made me wonder whether this could be a more informal scrawl, rather than the typical version given out to fans etc. I hadn't thought about "boyd" in fact being "boyo!", good point.

Another theory I had was that perhaps it had been signed off by the photographer, but if it was G Goddard then it seems unlikely he'd have signed himself Jim

Richard

[PCC]

I hadn't thought about "boyd" in fact being "boyo!", good point.

I think it's 'boyd'. If you compare the last letter to the 'd' in 'end', it's formed in much the same way. Not that any of this gets you any closer to an answer...

[kayemod]

Interesting reading, thanks all!

I hadn't thought about "boyd" in fact being "boyo!", good point.

I'm sure it's boyd, but it seems odd to have used a lower case 'b' for boyd , and an upper case J for Jim.

[Glengavel]

I think it's 'boyd'. If you compare the last letter to the 'd' in 'end', it's formed in much the same way. Not that any of this gets you any closer to an answer...

I don't think the 'boyd/boyo' lines up with the rest of the writing.

[JtP1]

As Mr Gauld will confirm, the photo has to be post May 63, because that is where he got his first Bell helmet. The official Indy photo of 63 has Clark in a silver Bell helmet as there was no time to paint it.

Ok, dug out the reference book, terrible having to resort to books and not failing memory. Bell helmet, car no.1, no yellow stripe = Spa 63.

Edited by JtP1, 21 November 2011 - 20:36.

[garyfrogeye]

I agree, if it wasn't for the similarity of both "d"s Id say that the first six words and the word "boyd were written at a different time.
It could also be read as "boy of"
Also the "o" of the word "you" and the "o" of the word "boyd" look to be written quite differently.
The "i" in the word "in" and the "I in the word "Jin" look identical.
So my theory is that the first six words and the signature are the same but the word boyd was written later or by someone else.

Edited by garyfrogeye, 21 November 2011 - 20:32.

[Roger Clark]

That - I think - is a Geoff Goddard photograph which was chosen as the front cover shot on the October 1963 issue of 'Motor Racing' magazine. When I saw it in a newsagent shop in the upper High Street, Guildford, it persuaded me to write to the magazine's editorial office, asking them for a job. They gave me one...and that is how the fight started, your honour...

I have to say that my immediate reaction upon seeing the 'Jim' signature was that it looked right... But that was without comparing it to what I know 100 per cent is a genuine Clark autograph.

DCN

It is the same photograph.

Looks like a fuel injection engine, adding further weight to the 1963 argument.

[marlow]

Nice photograph of the best driver of his time.

It is Jim during the Belgian Grand Prix 1963 ; uncovered carburator-intakes , the Bell helmet and racing number "1 ".
The writing is not of his handwriting .

[Peter Darley]

And is not his writing !!!

GG

Have compared "Jim" with several genuine Clark signatures (signed in my presence) and agree with Graham.

[jj2728]

The sig looks nothing like the one I got from him at the Glen in '67.....so, who could the 'Jim' be?

[elansprint72]

Nice photograph of the best driver of his time.

It is Jim during the Belgian Grand Prix 1963 ; uncovered carburator-intakes , the Bell helmet and racing number "1 ".
The writing is not of his handwriting .

Welcome to the forum.

Introduce yourself.

[Michael Oliver]

The sig looks nothing like the one I got from him at the Glen in '67.....so, who could the 'Jim' be?

Jim Endruweit maybe? He was a mechanic on the F1 cars at the time, IIRC.

[Giraffe]

An observation, "boyd" reads as "phog" when inverted. Or, does it read "bond"??? Will we find out in the end? Somehow, I doubt it.

[elansprint72]

I agree, if it wasn't for the similarity of both "d"s Id say that the first six words and the word "boyd were written at a different time.
It could also be read as "boy of"
Also the "o" of the word "you" and the "o" of the word "boyd" look to be written quite differently.
The "i" in the word "in" and the "I in the word "Jin" look identical.
So my theory is that the first six words and the signature are the same but the word boyd was written later or by someone else.

I nearly agree! The "y" and "d" of boyd (if that is what it says) fit in with those letters in the main script (almost). boyd and Jim look like additions, if only a few seconds and a re-orientation of the photo later.

Presumably this photo was taken some while before it was written upon; what do do The Gentlemen of the Jury make of that suggestion?

Edited by elansprint72, 21 November 2011 - 22:02.

[D-Type]

It's written in pencil and "Jim" has a thinner line width than the rest while "boyd/boyo" is about the same width as the first six words.

But "boyd/boyo" is definitely not in line with them so either the paper was rotated or it was written later.

I still don't think it says "boyd" - the upright of the final "d" goes far too far 'below the line' and I don't think that's a natural way to write, but I am no handwriting expert.

Pete, surely there's no way of gauging how soon after the photo was taken it was written upon.

[marlow]

Welcome to the forum.

Introduce yourself.

I am a Dutch Jim Clark fan and first saw him during the World Cup GT race at Zandvoort on a very hot day in July 1959.
He was tremendously fast in the Lotus Elite : pole position , the quickest sprinter in the Le Mans start, and far in the lead , until mechanical problems dropped him out of the race. Graham Warner ( the Chequered Flag Elite ) then took over the lead, but he also had to retire. Gerhard Koch won the race in a Porsche.
But I realy was impressed when I watched his battle during the Dutch Grand Prix 1961 against Phil Hill. The tiny Lotus 21 against the mighty Ferrari 156 !
From that moment on he was in my opinion the best, and I saw all of his victories on this circuit in the dunes, which was one of his favourite tracks.

[elansprint72]

Good to have another JC fan here.

[elansprint72]

It's written in pencil and "Jim" has a thinner line width than the rest while "boyd/boyo" is about the same width as the first six words.

But "boyd/boyo" is definitely not in line with them so either the paper was rotated or it was written later.

I still don't think it says "boyd" - the upright of the final "d" goes far too far 'below the line' and I don't think that's a natural way to write, but I am no handwriting expert.

Pete, surely there's no way of gauging how soon after the photo was taken it was written upon.

I am no handwriting expert.

I can not gauge how long after the shot was taken it was before the print was written upon. However, our friend did not say that it was a Polaroid print in his posession; so think about it.

[David Beard]

Richard.

From the Jarrott's website...



Mmmmm....

[Bloggsworth]

Jim Endruweit?

The Boyd is not aligned with the "See you there...", so I don't think it reads "See you there in the end Boyd"

The Jim looks like the signiture of an artist, it has a flow about it.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 21 November 2011 - 23:54.

[David Beard]

Jim Endruweit?

The Boyd is not aligned with the "See you there...", so I don't think it reads "See you there in the end Boyd"

The Jim looks like the signiture of an artist, it has a flow about it.

Can also be read as "boy of Jim"

[jatwarks]

Is the dot over the "i" of Jim, or is it part of an exclamation mark after "boyo"?

My first thought was that it's definitely "boyd", but the lack of a capital has swayed me towards "boyo!". Using lower case initials became fashionable, but not until much later.

Anyway, it's definitely not part of the first phrase.

I don't think an informal signature would use characters so different from the more widely used signature; The "J" is too different from that in the sample shown of a genuine Clark signature. Why would you change an individual character so much?

My conclusion is that it is a "genuine" note from a Jim, but not Clark.

The addition of "boyo!", or "boyd", or "boy of", which must have been added later, is suspicious and, unless part of an in-joke between the participants, makes no sense at all.

A very nice photo that appears to be in very good condition though. Be proud to own it.

[Peter Darley]

Jim Endruweit maybe? He was a mechanic on the F1 cars at the time, IIRC.

Sorry Michael, not Jim Endruweit. Compared with JE signature in my presence.

[oldclassiccar]

Fascinating stuff, I appreciate everyone's input

Looking closely at the writing, the main sentence and "boyd/boyo!" appear to be written by the same person, perhaps at a different moment in time. The pressure on the pencil looks consistent for both parts.

The "Jim" part I think was written by a sharper pencil, with less pressure on it or perhaps in more of a rush, quite possibly by a different hand.

If it does say "boyo!" then perhaps it was written by ????? to the person whose house the stallholder cleared shortly before I found it. I live in NW England and from memory the house was over Chester/North Wales direction, so if that person was of Welsh origin, then it may explain the boyo! reference (apologies to Welsh readers ).

Richard

Edited by oldclassiccar, 22 November 2011 - 09:24.

[oldclassiccar]

A while after finding the photograph, and still thinking that the note said "boyd", I picked up a slim publication from 1965 by Maxwell Boyd (in association with Ilford film) on the subject of "Photographing Motor Racing", where he discusses the various ways to go about the subject. Various photographs feature, including a close-up of Surtees sat in his car, which is very similar to the JC one above. There are also some of his photos featuring the '64 Spa GP. Maybe he was also there in '63?

When I bought the booklet (off ebay), the vendor included a letter which refers to another virtually identical booklet in his possession, but dating to 1964 rather than 1965. He says in the '64 there is a ".. nice one [photo] of Jim Clark .." in it. I wish I'd picked that 1964 copy up too now, doh! Chances are it would have included photos from the previous season, as was the case with the '65 booklet. Does anyone have this '64 guide to motor racing photography by M. Boyd?

Richard

[jtremlett]

Interesting! Might I suggest the vague possibility that the "boyd" goes with the "Jim" so that the signature reads "Jim Boyd" in the same way that Rene Arnoux writes his signature with the "Rene" below the "Arnoux"? Either way, it doesn't look to me like the "boyd" is intended as part of the sentence of text.

Jonathan

[uffen]

I can read it as "bond" instead of "boyd."

[Gary C]

.............doesn't look like 'boyo' to me.

[BRG]

I am probably missing something, but what does "See you there in the end" mean anyway? See you where? In the end of what?

[gwk]

Could the words 'boyd' and 'Jim' be notes identifying the photographer and the subject? Don't get the message, though.

[jcbc3]

I would venture that the three parts (sentence, boyd, jim) are written at three different times.

See you there could be anyone writing a message about, e.g. meeting at Spa since that seem to be the place of the motif.
Boyd as has been suggested could be a marking the photographer put on either before or after the sentence
And finally Jim could be anyone that had the photograph in his hand at any time that was told who the person is and scribbled that on the backside.

[edit]
Guess I shouldn't be so slow to compose messages. Just noticed gwk said pretty much the same thing just before me.
[/edit]

Edited by jcbc3, 22 November 2011 - 14:56.