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A record that is not a record


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#1 RStock

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 17:17

And I don't mean LP's.

Mansell 14 Poles from 16 Races
Vettel 15 Poles from 19 Races

How has Vettel set "the record"?

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#2 Stephen W

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 17:18

And I don't mean LP's.

Mansell 14 Poles from 16 Races
Vettel 15 Poles from 19 Races

How has Vettel set "the record"?


Most Pole Positions in a season. No one questioned Mansell setting the record when in previous years there had been fewer than 16 races!



#3 RStock

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 17:22

Most Pole Positions in a season. No one questioned Mansell setting the record when in previous years there had been fewer than 16 races!


Very true. So who has done it with the least amount of races? Fangio would be my first guess, or Ascari.

#4 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 17:25

Gotta be by %, thee only fair way. Don't know if Mansell holds that too but its sill higher than Vettel's.

I'd argue the FW14 was more dominant than this years RB7 though so Vettel deserves the plaudits.

#5 Tim Murray

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 17:40

Fangio had 6 out of 7 (not counting Indy) in 1956.

Edited by Tim Murray, 26 November 2011 - 17:43.


#6 Michael Ferner

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 19:21

And I don't mean LP's.

Mansell 14 Poles from 16 Races
Vettel 15 Poles from 19 Races

How has Vettel set "the record"?


Because, "15 > 14"?

:confused:

#7 Jesper O. Hansen

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 19:47

Oh no, another quantity twist.

#8 arttidesco

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 20:05

Without wishing to take anything away from Sebastian's achievement or record his 16 out of 19 = 84.2 % while Fangio '56 is on 85.7% excluding Indy and Our Nige is on Edit Correction 87.5 % :blush:

While I agree the FW14B was a quantum leap ahead of it's contemporary opposition in the way that the rules would not allow the Redbull to be ahead of todays field, what I am not so sure about is how good the Lancia Ferrari was compared to the 250 F ?

I have always suspected the Maserati was the better car.

Edited by arttidesco, 26 November 2011 - 20:08.


#9 Bauble

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 20:07

Without wishing to take anything away from Sebastian's achievement or record his 16 out of 19 = 84.2 % while Fangio '56 is on 85.7% excluding Indy and Our Nige is on 93.7 %.Edit Correction 87.5 % :blush:

While I agree the FW14B was a quantum leap ahead of it's contemporary opposition in the way that the rules would not allow the Redbull to be ahead of todays field, what I am not so sure about is how good the Lancia Ferrari was compared to the 250 F ?

I have always suspected the Maserati was the better car.


In the case of Nige and Seb, the superiority was in the cars, in 1956 it was the driver.

#10 arttidesco

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 20:09

In the case of Nige and Seb, the superiority was in the cars, in 1956 it was the driver.


That was my impression though '56 was a full three years before I arrived on the planet :wave:

#11 RStock

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 21:07

Because, "15 > 14"?

:confused:


But it didn't beat Nige's percentage...

Mansell - 87.50%

Vettel - 78.9%



#12 Michael Ferner

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 21:45

I don't understand all that nonsense about percentages and so on. Next you're going to tell me that Fangio has actually won more World Championships than Schumacher because he didn't compete for twenty years... :drunk:

#13 heidegger75

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 22:11

nvm...

Edited by heidegger75, 01 December 2011 - 17:47.


#14 Roger Clark

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 22:18

If The Nostalgia Forum is going to include a discussion of current events it would be helpful for it not to include the result of events that I'm amount to watch.

#15 David McKinney

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 23:43

Turn away Roger...

Vettel has won 15 poles in a season. That's more than anyone else has achieved so it's a record

If you want to place a value on that achievement, that's a different matter

#16 Nick Wa

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 03:55

If The Nostalgia Forum is going to include a discussion of current events it would be helpful for it not to include the result of events that I'm amount to watch.

The breaking of this record was so riveting that at the end of Q2 when he said " We will now go to a short to a short commercial break" I rested my eyes, after a full 30 naps I noticed they were playing basket ball!
However I never drop off when watching this JMF @ Modena !

N.b. U-tube has several versions of this clip, this seems to have the best definition but they all may contain different shots.

Edited by Nick Wa, 27 November 2011 - 04:03.


#17 Stephen W

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 10:58

Turn away Roger...

Vettel has won 15 poles in a season. That's more than anyone else has achieved so it's a record

If you want to place a value on that achievement, that's a different matter


Ah! The concept of placing a value on achievement - trickey!

It could lead to all sorts of hypotheses such as percentages!!!

Lets face it there are as many opinions as there are seconds in the year!

This is just another of those "oh yes it is, oh no its not" debates with little chance of resolution and every chance that people will get annoyed with each other.

:wave:

#18 Tim Murray

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 11:22

I foresee a similar situation arising soon over total points scored. According to the relevant page on Stats F1 seven out of the top eight points scorers, for obvious reasons, are drivers currently competing:

http://www.statsf1.c...int/nombre.aspx

When one of the lower scorers finally overtakes Schumacher there will no doubt be a great hoo-ha but the achievement will be completely meaningless.

#19 Bauble

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 12:32

"Lets face it there are as many opinions as there are seconds in the year!"

That's twelve then .......2nd January, 2nd February ...............................


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#20 Bauble

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 12:34

Come on chaps get your statistics right!

There was only one Pole last year and none this.

You can't argue with that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#21 RStock

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 15:30

I'm going to stick with Mansell as holding the record based on two things...

Higher percentage

Better mustache, which has to count for something.

#22 jimjimjeroo

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 15:35

I'm going to stick with Mansell as holding the record based on two things...

Higher percentage

Better mustache, which has to count for something.



This

#23 Lemnpiper

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 20:30

This




LOL many older Americans might consider this discussion very similiar to the 1961 discussion over Maris beating Ruth's HR record since Maris had a 162 game seasn and Ruth a 154 game season.


As i see it Mansell won more in less races but how often do we pay closer to the total poles or wins a driver racked up , then we do the % of races the driver was involved in to rack up those numbers?

Look at the Indy 500 4 time winners . Is Mears better than AJ or Big Al since he won 4 in fewer races? You cannot have a conclusive winner in this debate since the basis of the debate is based on different basic chances.Ditto for the points in F1 now versus 25 years ago.


Paul


#24 arttidesco

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 23:29

With out wishing to get too deep into Georg Cantors Set Theory and the Continuum Hypothesis I believe we will find the argument hinges on the axioms of choice either percentage or total number. Mostly the general public will buy into the easy to sell total number while the 'experts' will know better  ;)

Edited by arttidesco, 27 November 2011 - 23:30.


#25 Gary Davies

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 03:18

With out wishing to get too deep into Georg Cantors Set Theory and the Continuum Hypothesis I believe we will find the argument hinges on the axioms of choice either percentage or total number. Mostly the general public will buy into the easy to sell total number while the 'experts' will know better  ;)


Quite. Some well chosen words that resonate with me completely. I was about to post something similar, albeit in less scholarly terms.

I do find this modern day obsession with records and the minutiae thereof to be so tiresome. And mostly, unendurably fatuous. In fact, I'm so old fashioned that I adhere to a view I believe DSJ held that the notion of a championship table is a vulgar and commercially inspired construct.

I'm sure those with a more focussed recollection of DSJ's views will correct me if appropriate.

#26 Catalina Park

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 06:15

For statistical purposes I rank the drivers by height. It is just as meaningless as any other method but it is quick and easy. The question is should they go from tall to short or short to tall?

I despise championships. They ruin racing.

My ideal championship would be one point for a win. That's it.

#27 Allan Lupton

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 09:20

I despise championships. They ruin racing.

and I despise statistical analyses of motor sport results. They ruin TNF.

As an example of the fatuousness of statistics in this context try plotting the number of drivers killed against the number of Grand Epreuves (or Effone races) in each season since the end of the second War.

#28 Bauble

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 09:40

The discussion around statistics misses the point, I believe, you see, modern F1 is so boring, lacking in character, and characters that the fatuous BBC presenters have to find something to talk about to hold the viewers interest, after all it is a pretty plum job.

Every minor collision has to be 'investigated' by the stewards, who invariably give someone a drive through penalty!

Every 'pole', race win, podium finish, points score has to be registered in the public conciousness to drum up some sense of drama amongst the fan boyz.

DRS zones, self degrading tyres, compulsory pit stops are all part of the plot to maintain interest, and therefore viewing figures.

Modern Grands Prix racing is more akin to Strickly Come Dancing, than proper motor sport, just be thankful that you had the best of it!

Let's run a new competition; Who would you name as the stand out CHARACTER of 2011 season?

bauble. Out to establish a new posting record on TNF.

#29 Stephen W

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 10:53

"Lets face it there are as many opinions as there are seconds in the year!"

That's twelve then .......2nd January, 2nd February ...............................



Come on chaps get your statistics right!

There was only one Pole last year and none this.

You can't argue with that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:rotfl:


The discussion around statistics misses the point, I believe, you see, modern F1 is so boring, lacking in character, and characters that the fatuous BBC presenters have to find something to talk about to hold the viewers interest, after all it is a pretty plum job.

Every minor collision has to be 'investigated' by the stewards, who invariably give someone a drive through penalty!

Every 'pole', race win, podium finish, points score has to be registered in the public conciousness to drum up some sense of drama amongst the fan boyz.

DRS zones, self degrading tyres, compulsory pit stops are all part of the plot to maintain interest, and therefore viewing figures.

Modern Grands Prix racing is more akin to Strickly Come Dancing, than proper motor sport, just be thankful that you had the best of it!

Let's run a new competition; Who would you name as the stand out CHARACTER of 2011 season?

bauble. Out to establish a new posting record on TNF.


I reluctantly find myself agreeing with a lot that you have said although I can't buy into the analogy between Grand Prix racing and Strickly Come Dancing - I would have thought some stupid reality TV show would have been more appropriate.

As for a stand out character there is none in GP Racing unless you count Eddie Jordan!

:wave:

#30 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 11:49

A lot of this goes to show that we , as enthusiasts are a tad too fond of trying to compare apples with oranges.
The game has changed fundamentally over the years and we are simply not comparing like-for-like in any aspect unless it's narrowed down to a span of only a few season when some degree of stability has been arrived at. And stability has never been a strong point in motor sport, especially F1.

Record points scores - irrelevent because the number of points awarded has changed several times over the years

Record number of Championship race wins - equally so as you seldom got into double figures during the 1950s and are now at close to triple the original figure

'Greatest Ever' - Impossible to work out : would Clark cope with the modern G Forces? Would Schumacher cope without seat belts and strategists? Would Vettel cope with 4 wheels drifts and without elctric gizmos? Would Fangio have coped with gizmos and with cars that don't drift very much?

We will never know, we can never know - so no point in losing sleep over it. :cool:



#31 Bauble

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 12:17

:rotfl:




I reluctantly find myself agreeing with a lot that you have said although I can't buy into the analogy between Grand Prix racing and Strickly Come Dancing - I would have thought some stupid reality TV show would have been more appropriate.

As for a stand out character there is none in GP Racing unless you count Eddie Jordan!

:wave:


I must hastern to add that I have never watched SCD or any other reality TV show except Formula 1.

bob

#32 Gary Davies

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 12:36

I must hasten to add that I have never watched SCD or any other reality TV show except Formula 1.

bob


Oh I have, I have. I visited my sister and her hubby in South Devon about this time last year - when it got decidedly chilly causing the points to ice up all over England - and they forced me to watch several episodes, complete with some ghastly corpulent former politician cavorting with an effete fellow who I thought would make a nice snack for her. Thing is, we have mostly horrid pubs here in Oz* and there are many excellent hostelries in South Devon... and I missed out on a lot of drinking time. Ah yes, I've seen Stricturely Come Dancing orlright.

* In case Mr Nye is watching, I concede the Macclesfield Hotel isn't bad!


#33 Barry Boor

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 13:29

I would comment on this Dancing programme if I had any idea what it was but I don't so I can't.

However, I will say, as I have done several times previously, that I feel very sorry for those of us who see no value, no entertainment, no interest and indeed, no anything, when considering modern F.1 racing. Lighten up, chaps, it really isn't that bad.

There again, I guess watching Jim Clark pulverise the field with nonchalant ease for two and a half hours back in the early 1960s was much more exciting, wasn't it? Wasn't it........?

#34 Roger Clark

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 14:00

I'm sure everybody knows that Jim Clark had 14 pole positions in formula 1 races during 1963.

#35 john ruston

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 15:08

Comparing F1 with SCD and Rounders.Interesting.

The TV ratings for both those programmes are greater than F1 in UK and USA respectively.

It's all about hype and getting people involved so Bernie's girls or ex girl's can become reality stars , probably be involved with SCD or DWTS!



#36 Nick Wa

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 16:58

In the noble game of cricket one is also bombarded by the tv experts with endless statistics and records which are equally meaningless as Don Bradman slips further down the pecking order. But if your eyes and maths are quick enough you can work out he achieved his place in 1/3 of the matches at twice the average of those displacing him.
So pick any era from Christian Lautenschlager to Sebastian Vettel and you will find statistics to prove that nowadays is better than yesterday.

#37 Paul Hurdsfield

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 16:59

Slightly o/t but along the lines of so called reallity tv.

My sister phoned last night, it went like this.......
Pat, I'm not disturbing you watching anything am I?
Me, It's ok I was watching something, but carry on.
Pat, What were you watching, X Factor?
Me, Dont insult my Intelligence!
Pat, What were you watching then?
Me, How to build a satellite!
Pat, what?
Sometimes Women just dont understand blokes do they? :lol:
I then passed the phone over to my Wife ;)

Edited by Paul Hurdsfield, 28 November 2011 - 17:01.


#38 RStock

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 19:14

Well, I generally agree with many here that statistical comparisons and stats are usually a bore. I've never been one to delve into that area and find it tedious and it is not why I enjoy racing or any sport. American sports are awash with these silly items. Just last night while watching an American football game they announced a statistic, this team had not scored in the last 40 quarters when a drive starts inside their own 20 yard line. Really? Who the hell comes up with this stuff?

But the percentage here is what made me take notice. Again I agree with some fellow posters that comparing one era to another is generally a waste of time what with the way things have changed over time, but in some areas such as this, percentage has always been the accepted way this record has been determined. I thought that was why Nigel is deemed to have the record as his season percentage is higher. That is why I don't understand how Vettel can be considered to have the record since his percentage is lower, quite lower than several other drivers I have now learned.

I'll also admit to probable bias, I have always been quite fond of Nigel. Probably for the same reason I like Massa. No one seemed to give him credit for his accomplishments, the underdog syndrome I suppose. I've also heard Nigel was the last driver with a mustache to score podium. Now there's the sort of stats I like! I'll also admit to having a bias toward Williams, and not just the team but Sir Frank himself.

I also like young Vettel though. Ever since he was Friday driver for BMW. You could tell the kid was something special. I also like the fact he's shown some respect to Nigel, refering to himself as Mr. Mansell along with sporting a fake moustache.

Posted Image
photo from tumbler.com

^ Who says these guys are boring?

#39 Stephen W

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 09:57

I must hastern to add that I have never watched SCD or any other reality TV show except Formula 1.

bob


This is getting scary!!! :well:

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#40 W154

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 13:04

A lot of this goes to show that we , as enthusiasts are a tad too fond of trying to compare apples with oranges.
The game has changed fundamentally over the years and we are simply not comparing like-for-like in any aspect unless it's narrowed down to a span of only a few season when some degree of stability has been arrived at. And stability has never been a strong point in motor sport, especially F1.

Record points scores - irrelevent because the number of points awarded has changed several times over the years

Record number of Championship race wins - equally so as you seldom got into double figures during the 1950s and are now at close to triple the original figure

'Greatest Ever' - Impossible to work out : would Clark cope with the modern G Forces? Would Schumacher cope without seat belts and strategists? Would Vettel cope with 4 wheels drifts and without elctric gizmos? Would Fangio have coped with gizmos and with cars that don't drift very much?

We will never know, we can never know - so no point in losing sleep over it. :cool:

To answer your questions
Of course, Scotsmen can cope with anything; No; You make little joke, yes?; JMF wouldn't need gizmos and could make any car drift.

#41 Bauble

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 13:37

It is a fact that Vettel has won more races for Red Bull than Fangio, but Juan has scored more for Maserati than Seb.

Statistics can prove anything.

PS; Is anybody else glad to see the back of Rubens?

#42 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 14:34

To answer your questions
Of course, Scotsmen can cope with anything; No; You make little joke, yes?; JMF wouldn't need gizmos and could make any car drift.


And then again... who knows?: glad you agree :probably! : If JMF (or JYS, SCM etc) didn't use the relevent gizmos today and did drift the mystical Red Bull like a 250F he'd have a problem with the 107% rule....and no tyres left after a few laps(sad but true) but would Seb,MSC, JC or the others have driven the Mille Miglia solo... with one front wheel flapping loose at the finish?

(My own admiration for JMF knows no bounds :up: )

Apples and oranges :cool:

#43 Roger Clark

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 14:58

And then again... who knows?: glad you agree :probably! : If JMF (or JYS, SCM etc) didn't use the relevent gizmos today and did drift the mystical Red Bull like a 250F he'd have a problem with the 107% rule....and no tyres left after a few laps(sad but true) but would Seb,MSC, JC or the others have driven the Mille Miglia solo... with one front wheel flapping loose at the finish?

(My own admiration for JMF knows no bounds :up: )

Apples and oranges :cool:

Fangio wasn't driving alone in 1953 when his steering broke. Not that I'm saying that made it any easier!

#44 Bauble

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 15:04

And then again... who knows?: glad you agree :probably! : If JMF (or JYS, SCM etc) didn't use the relevent gizmos today and did drift the mystical Red Bull like a 250F he'd have a problem with the 107% rule....and no tyres left after a few laps(sad but true) but would Seb,MSC, JC or the others have driven the Mille Miglia solo... with one front wheel flapping loose at the finish?

(My own admiration for JMF knows no bounds :up: )

Apples and oranges :cool:


Simon,
Don't blow things up out of all proportion, El Chueco only lost steering on one wheel!!!!

Hardly an inconvenience, is it?

#45 Tim Murray

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 15:18

PS; Is anybody else glad to see the back of Rubens?

Not me. He's always struck me as someone who drives racing cars because he loves doing so, not just because he happens to be good at it. His respect and appreciation for the history of the sport was very evident when he drove a Lotus 79 at the Goodwood FoS a few years ago. If this is his swansong, I shall miss him.

#46 RStock

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 18:41

PS; Is anybody else glad to see the back of Rubens?


I never cared much for looking at his front either. But I think the reported demise of Rubens career is greatly exaggerated. He'll be back next year.