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NASCAR 2012


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#801 Bob Riebe

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 22:35

I'd settle for either over, given the tenor of the weekend thus far, "Massive crash leaves five in critical condition." I appreciate NASCAR's safety advances, but it strikes me that it tests them at these tracks far too frequently.

When is the last time that happened in NASCAR or U.S. stock car racing?


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#802 DanardiF1

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 23:49

Exactly. These cars are so big, with 1.5 tonnes of metal surrounding the driver in neatly designed crumple zones, that it would take an impact that was extremely anomalous to cause the kind of injuries we saw in the past. Safety is never guaranteed of course, but these current cars, combined with the advances in barrier technology, are very hard to destroy to such an extent that the driver is in danger of being harmed beyond traditional high-impact injuries like back pains, whiplash (to an extent) and possibly broken arms/legs.

#803 red stick

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 00:07

Exactly. These cars are so big, with 1.5 tonnes of metal surrounding the driver in neatly designed crumple zones, that it would take an impact that was extremely anomalous to cause the kind of injuries we saw in the past. Safety is never guaranteed of course, but these current cars, combined with the advances in barrier technology, are very hard to destroy to such an extent that the driver is in danger of being harmed beyond traditional high-impact injuries like back pains, whiplash (to an extent) and possibly broken arms/legs.


Exactly, you've described NASCAR's point of view, I'm sure. But once you start believing that the cars/barriers/belts/head-and-neck devices are so good we don't have to concern ourselves with serious injuries, you start thinking, "People liked pack racing and the associated crashfests? Let's give it to them." So you believe that carnage is fine, but that's o.k., it's controlled carnage. Like you learned in kindergarten, it's only fun until someone gets hurt.




#804 pingu666

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 00:26

its not really any faster than the intermediate tracks, its just they are in a pack, the average speed of impact is probably fairly low because of that.

but id say the best chance of injury in a cot would be from multiple heavy hits, like e sads at pocono or mcdowl at texas, with a another car hitting the same impact zone on the car again. Or fire, or someone passing the post crash health checks when they shouldnt and that leading to something else

#805 Slowinfastout

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 00:48

Strangely enough, I think the risk of serious injury might have shifted a bit to the road-courses in Nascar... it takes something quite freakish to get injured on ovals now, as Busch and Danica have shown recently by shrugging off massive impacts.

The road-courses are less of a controlled environment even if the speeds are lower, the Glen in particular still has many odd angles that can mess up a car real good..

Maybe I'm completely wrong but it's an impression I'm getting..

#806 red stick

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 00:51

When is the last time that happened in NASCAR or U.S. stock car racing?

Fans were injured in 2009 and 2010 at Talladega and Texas. The wrecks don't stay contained, and NASCAR seems to not mind the wrecks.

#807 Slowinfastout

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 01:12

Fans were injured in 2009 and 2010 at Talladega and Texas. The wrecks don't stay contained, and NASCAR seems to not mind the wrecks.


Good point, the cheese graters are a bit iffy right in front of packed grandstands, but it's not an easy problem to deal with..

Not sure the solution in this case is to get rid of the wrecks in general, unless by that you mean it should be boring enough for the stands to be empty.

I agree there should be a limit to the 'have at it' policy though, sometimes it really goes too far..

#808 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 01:20

Strangely enough, I think the risk of serious injury might have shifted a bit to the road-courses in Nascar... it takes something quite freakish to get injured on ovals now, as Busch and Danica have shown recently by shrugging off massive impacts.

The road-courses are less of a controlled environment even if the speeds are lower, the Glen in particular still has many odd angles that can mess up a car real good..

Maybe I'm completely wrong but it's an impression I'm getting..

I agree. I think that the Watkins Glen armco is always a dangerous wildcard lurking around. Even a very strong roll cage can be easily cut apart with the armco. If a stock car flips on top of the armco in the Esses, the results could be very grisly.

#809 Atreiu

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 01:53

Say that again

#810 Dilla

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 01:56



I agree. I think that the Watkins Glen armco is always a dangerous wildcard lurking around. Even a very strong roll cage can be easily cut apart with the armco. If a stock car flips on top of the armco in the Esses, the results could be very grisly.

I am reminded of the David Reutimann/Ragan wreck last year. http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

And the Nationwide pile-up at the same spot in 2010. http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Edited by Dilla, 27 February 2012 - 02:00.


#811 DanardiF1

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 02:05

Exactly, you've described NASCAR's point of view, I'm sure. But once you start believing that the cars/barriers/belts/head-and-neck devices are so good we don't have to concern ourselves with serious injuries, you start thinking, "People liked pack racing and the associated crashfests? Let's give it to them." So you believe that carnage is fine, but that's o.k., it's controlled carnage. Like you learned in kindergarten, it's only fun until someone gets hurt.


But I don't enjoy the carnage at all, and think the idea of letting drivers bully each other at 170mph+ is one of the more morally questionable aspects of NASCAR. I think the safety advances are good for motorsport in general, and there's a lot NASCAR has given the motorsport world in safety, but I don't think they should be used as a 'free-pass' to carnage...

#812 Bob Riebe

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 02:18

Fans were injured in 2009 and 2010 at Talladega and Texas. The wrecks don't stay contained, and NASCAR seems to not mind the wrecks.

This is the remark you made that I inquired about: "Massive crash leaves five in critical condition."

People get hurt, that is part of life, but what you stated as being a normal part of stock car racing has never happened that I know of.


#813 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 02:43

The only way five drivers would be left in critical condition in one race is if a Blue Angels plane crashed into the pit road during the pre-race show.

Edited by Dmitriy_Guller, 27 February 2012 - 02:44.


#814 red stick

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 03:01

This is the remark you made that I inquired about: "Massive crash leaves five in critical condition."

You do realize you left out the dependent clause, don't you? My remark was very pointedly aimed at the nature of this weekend's races.

#815 Bob Riebe

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 09:37

You do realize you left out the dependent clause, don't you? My remark was very pointedly aimed at the nature of this weekend's races.

It is asinine to say that remark is in any way related to the nature of this weekend's race.


#816 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 13:35

Well, I guess we've seen one freak accident that could've been very serious. It makes me shudder thinking about what would happen if Montoya's car was entangled in the burning jet dryer.

#817 red stick

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 16:48

Gordon Kirby on NASCAR's move to fuel injection:

http://www.gordonkir...t_is_no324.html

#818 Bob Riebe

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 17:56

Gordon Kirby on NASCAR's move to fuel injection:

http://www.gordonkir...t_is_no324.html

That article tries to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

If the person who said this leaves the room the average level of the intellect in that room increases.

"The best thing about this good first step in electronics," White added, "is the influx of people that are at a significantly different level than what we've been used to. The NASCAR teams have been used to having a tuner who would clean up the valves, change the springs and check the lag, work through materials and filters, change jets and set the timing with a light and so forth. Now, you still have to look after all those mechanical components but there's an engineering aspect to NASCAR cars now that we've never seen before. In my opinion, there's been an upgrade of the average intellect in the garage."

Edited by Bob Riebe, 28 February 2012 - 19:01.


#819 Andrew Hope

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 18:12

On to Phoenix next weekend. Anyone know if the shortcut on the back stretch is still allowed? I quite like it.

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#820 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 18:55

Gordon Kirby on NASCAR's move to fuel injection:

http://www.gordonkir...t_is_no324.html

This is the quote that stood out to me:
"Then there are the additional electronic requirements, primarily from the fuel pump. The system requires ten times the fuel pressure that a carburetor did. It's 75 psi rather than 7.5 psi, which is a tremendous increase in electrical supply. So everyone's had to upgrade their alternators. If you walk 'round the garage you'll see everyone is running cooling pipes to the alternator just to try to keep it alive."
I believe I heard one of the guys in the booth last night say there were two or three cars out with fuel pressure issues, Mears come to mind as one of them...

#821 Dilla

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 07:17

I felt really bad for Mears when he had his fuel pressure issues. He and his team definitely came to race last night. They were running around the top 7 for most of the night and he had gotten off pitroad in the top 5 during that caution that turned into a red flag. It was pretty obvious that Germain probably threw his entire budget (and more) at the car and pitcrew for the 500.

Edited by Dilla, 29 February 2012 - 07:18.


#822 red stick

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 14:50

In case you were wondering where NASCAR stands regarding Keselowski's cell phone usage Monday night, and social media in general, they're fer it.

http://www.indystar....es-social-media

At least until someone tweets something really stupid.

#823 Dilla

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 19:44

http://www.nascar.co...ties/index.html

Chad Knaus and car chief Ron Malec suspended for 6 races. 48 team has been docked 25 points; so basically, Jimmie is in the negatives for points.

Hendrick will appeal, obviously.

Edited by Dilla, 29 February 2012 - 19:49.


#824 Pikachu Racing

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 04:31

Case solved thanks to Kevin Conway putting the victims pic and info on his car

http://sports.yahoo....-165904030.html

#825 pingu666

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 04:43

kinda amazing

#826 Juablo

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 15:58

http://nascar.speedt...h-move-to-ford/

A bit of a shock! What next for Dodge? I can't see any of the powerhouse teams switching to them. My bet is they go with RPM if they stay in the sport.

I hope to God that Chip doesn't go back, the last thing EGR needs is another marque change.

#827 Myrvold

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 16:08

It might be good for one of the smaller teams though! :)

#828 pingu666

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 16:14

umm
kinda amazing

#829 red stick

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 16:29

http://nascar.speedt...h-move-to-ford/

A bit of a shock! What next for Dodge? I can't see any of the powerhouse teams switching to them. My bet is they go with RPM if they stay in the sport.

I thought RPM was pretty much tied to Roush. And I can't see Roush going to Dodge.


#830 Dilla

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 19:42

Wow, that is a major surprise. Penske was the only Dodge team worth a damn, so Dodge will have some work to do.

I would buy Petty going back to Dodge, but they have improved so much with Ford power that they may be a bit reluctant (though that may be due to Gillett quitting).

I would say that EGR could be a possibility as well, Ganassi almost left Chevy for Ford a year ago and they haven't to have improved any since then.

#831 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 20:40

Ganassi was Dodge once already, or did they switch because of the EGR merger?

I can't see anyone going for it unless Chrylser offers BIG bucks.

#832 Slowinfastout

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 20:45

no more awesome looking Penske Challenger in Nationwide :(

#833 Juablo

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 20:48

Both EGR and RPM have been Dodge in their previous incarnations, Ganassi and Evernham/Petty Enterprises. If Dodge/Chrysler are serious about remaining in the sport they'll have to offer some serious $$ to lure someone to them. For RPM or EGR they could be an attractive prospect as they're never going to be the number one team for their current manufacturer. For Chevy it's Hendrick->Childress->Stewart-Haas->EGR and for Ford with Penske most probably coming in second behind Roush bumping Petty down to third.

#834 John B

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 21:36

Penske has switched makes more than any other team I can remember - this is at least the 4th time in 20 years beginning with Pontiac and the second go-around with Ford.

#835 red stick

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 21:52

Penske has switched makes more than any other team I can remember - this is at least the 4th time in 20 years beginning with Pontiac and the second go-around with Ford.

An Autoweek report has the breakdown: Pontiac 1991-93; Ford 1994-2002; Dodge 2003-2012.

http://www.autoweek....ASCAR/120309999

Maybe Penske figures it's better to be the Ford B-team than the Dodge A-team?


#836 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 21:54

I suspect that the Captain was >not< going to get the support he was expecting from the new regime at Chrysler, and packed up and left

Edited by whitewaterMkII, 01 March 2012 - 21:55.


#837 red stick

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 21:54

Dodge's response:

“Dodge has enjoyed a successful partnership with Penske Racing for 10 years,” he said. “It's a partnership that has produced results for both parties on and off the track. Roger [Penske] has made a business decision to accept an offer with another manufacturer. We wish Roger and Penske Racing much success in the future.

“We are committed to work with Penske Racing to compete at the highest level, win races and contend for championships this season.

“Our motorsports involvement isn't limited to NASCAR. We do value our NASCAR program and will be evaluating the opportunities available [in NASCAR] moving forward. As those opportunities materialize, we'll reveal our 2013 plans, not only in NASCAR but in other forms of motorsports.”

http://www.autoweek....ASCAR/120309989


#838 nosaj100

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 00:48

Wow, that is a major surprise. Penske was the only Dodge team worth a damn, so Dodge will have some work to do.

I would buy Petty going back to Dodge, but they have improved so much with Ford power that they may be a bit reluctant (though that may be due to Gillett quitting).

I would say that EGR could be a possibility as well, Ganassi almost left Chevy for Ford a year ago and they haven't to have improved any since then.


Petty will go wherever they can get the most money if King Richard still has any kind of sway. I'm not saying its necessarily a bad thing but the Petty clan has always been about getting stuff for themselves first, and the race team second.

I kind of feel like this could be the end of Dodge though. I can't see any major team making the switch. And if any of the smaller tier teams make the switch, they'd have to start up their own engine program which would cost quite a bit of cash. Unless Dodge is willing to throw a lot of cash to support them, I doubt a team will make the switch.

Edited by nosaj100, 02 March 2012 - 00:48.


#839 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 01:13

I really can't see them bothering with backing little teams, it's just going to make them look like the car that runs at the back. And like you said there needs to be an engine program, and without a big team there's no trickle-down on engines, chassis, etc.

What does this do to the Nationwide? Because that is my favourite car. If you have a Charger are they all Penske or what?

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#840 Dilla

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 06:29

Penske was non-committal about it, but Vice President Walt Czarnecki says that he expects Penske Racing to still utilize it's own engine department.

CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- Roger Penske is moving his racing organization from Dodge to Ford in 2013 to give it the best opportunity to compete for a Sprint Cup championship, he said Thursday after the move was announced.

Penske's teams will run Ford Fusions in the Sprint Cup Series and Ford Mustangs in the Nationwide Series, starting next season. His organization, which fielded Fords from 1995 to 2002, switched to Dodge in 2003.

Penske said being associated with Ford "gives us a chance to make sure we can beat any team in NASCAR in the future.''

He said the move will allow Penske Racing to measure its success against Roush Fenway Racing, which is also associated with Ford, instead of competing as Dodge's lone Sprint Cup team.

"When we weighed the pluses and minutes of opportunities it was apparent to us we need to win NASCAR Sprint Cup championships,'' Penske said. "We've been trying to do it alone.

"But having the opportunity to benchmark with someone like Roush, who has been world-class as we saw with the performance last week with (Matt) Kenseth (winning the Daytona 500) and how good their cars are, we felt it was time to evaluate other options.''

Penske's two-car operation with Brad Keselowski and AJ Allmendinger, as well as Robby Gordon as an owner-driver, are the only Dodge teams in the Sprint Cup Series.

As Gordon has an agreement with Penske for his racing engines, the move could leave the Sprint Cup series with three manufacturers in 2013: Ford, Chevrolet and Toyota.

Penske said his contract with Dodge ends after the 2012 season, creating a "watershed moment'' to look for a new partner.

Penske would not commit to running his own engine department, as he has since entering the sport. The other Ford teams get their engines from Roush Yates Engines.

"This is something we'll evaluate going forward,'' said Penske, who has about 70 employees in his engine department. "From an engine perspective, we have a commitment to our people at the engine shop. This is something we'll look at."

However, Walt Czarnecki, the executive vice president of Penske Corporation, made it clear that "our intent is to utilize our engine department.''


Czarnecki said that while Penske Racing benefited greatly from the technical support of Dodge, having another organization such as Roush Fenway Racing with which to share information during practice, test sessions and at the shop will be an advantage.

"We've done more than a reasonably good job the last couple of years when we were the only show in town, but we couldn't sit down with another Dodge engine builder and share their best practices,'' Czarnecki said.

Penske and Ford Racing's Jamie Allison said the deal had been in the works for several months, with talks escalating in the past few weeks. Penske said the move gives his organization a better opportunity to compete with teams such as Stewart-Haas Racing, which has an association with Chevrolet powerhouse Hendrick Motorsports.

The decision was made before Daytona, where the Roush Yates engines were strong, Penske said.

Allison called it a "historic day'' for Ford Racing.

Ralph Gilles, the president and CEO of Chrysler Group LLC's motorsports division, wished Penske success and pledged his company's support of the team's efforts to win races and championships this season.

"Our motorsports involvement isn't limited to NASCAR. We do value our NASCAR program and will be evaluating the opportunities available moving forward," Gilles said. "As those opportunities materialize, we'll reveal our 2013 plans, not only in NASCAR but in other forms of motorsports."


http://espn.go.com/r...ford-dodge-2013

Basically, Penske plans to be Roush's engine competitor like Childress is to Hendrick.

Edit: According RPM co-owner Andy Mustein, RPM has already been approached by Dodge (among 'others'):

Dodge will unveil its 2013 Sprint Cup car on March 11 at Las Vegas Motor Speedway. However, the bigger question now is who will be driving Dodges next year?

Robby Gordon Motorsports would be the lone team at this point after Penske Racing announced Thursday that it was moving to manufacturer Ford in 2013.

But Dodge has also reached out to other teams, including Richard Petty Motorsports, according to owner Andy Murstein.

"We received calls from several manufacturers today asking if they could meet with us,” Murstein said. “It seems that while sponsorship is down, car manufacturer support is strong. That is probably due to the fact that the car companies are all doing significantly better these days than a few years ago. Thus Petty has been approached by several manufacturers recently. What's interesting is that while there are the usual suspects there is one new manufacturer that is trying to break into the sport.

“Many of the manufactures have told us that the Petty name is a no-brainer for them. While admittedly Petty isn't in the winning class of Hendrick and Roush Fenway, at least not yet, they are first class in terms of pride and fan loyalty. The missteps that other teams have made such as their drivers embarrassing them will not be the case with Petty's drivers, and certainly will never be the case with the King himself.”

RPM’s contract with Ford is up at the end of the season. Petty ran Dodges from 1972 to 1978. Petty Enterprises aligned with Dodge again when the manufacturer returned to NASCAR competition in 2001 through most of the 2009 season, then under the RPM banner.

“We are focused on using Ford this year as we have high hopes for our performance,” Murstein said. “We have two great drivers now both on and off the track. Not only are they both extremely well spoken, personable, and loved by the sponsors, but they have the talent and the equipment needed to get it done. As everyone saw they both had great qualifying and practice times at Daytona and were both in the top five at points in the race. Partly because of that, and partly because there is only one King, who is a shining example of excellence and integrity both on and off the track, we have been approached by several manufacturers. Some of them are already in the sport and interestingly one of which is not in the sport but would like to enter it through a partnership with the King.”

Earnhardt Ganassi Racing president Steve Lauletta said the company had not yet been approached by Dodge.

"I haven't been involved in any of those conversations," Lauletta said. "But we're very happy with Chevrolet."


http://msn.foxsports...R-season-030112

Richard Petty Motorsports said: "We welcome Penske Racing to the Ford Racing Family in 2013. Additional teams mean more information for everyone and that's a very good thing from a competition standpoint. We have a partnership with Roush Fenway Racing and we are happy to be a part of the Ford Racing program. As we always do, we will evaluate all of our options and make decisions based on what is ultimately best for our race team."(RPM)(3-2-2012)


Edited by Dilla, 02 March 2012 - 07:02.


#841 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 13:08

Heh love that line about misbehaving drivers. That's probably the most 'controversial' thing I've seen someone say in NASCAR, and the irony is it comes from someone super corporate praising the super corporate.

#842 red stick

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 15:25

Heh love that line about misbehaving drivers. That's probably the most 'controversial' thing I've seen someone say in NASCAR, and the irony is it comes from someone super corporate praising the super corporate.

Struck me as kind of a cheap shot. Busch was a major aberration for Penske, and if RPM stays with Ford, Penske's his newest best buddy.


#843 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 16:04

Could have been The Other Busch and Gibbs  ;)

#844 red stick

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 16:11

Could have been. :lol:

#845 DanardiF1

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 17:39

Was watching NASCAR Now on ESPN before, and they were talking about Knaus' suspension and his priors... can anyone update me on what happened at 'Dega last year with the #48? They showed a clip of CK talking to Jimmie saying that if he won he had to damage the rear of the car somehow, presumably so the damage would hide some quasi-legal part, but does anyone know specifically what it was?

#846 Watkins74

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 17:56

Sure was a bad move of Best Buy to leave that high class RPM team...or not.  ;)

#847 Dilla

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 18:53

Was watching NASCAR Now on ESPN before, and they were talking about Knaus' suspension and his priors... can anyone update me on what happened at 'Dega last year with the #48? They showed a clip of CK talking to Jimmie saying that if he won he had to damage the rear of the car somehow, presumably so the damage would hide some quasi-legal part, but does anyone know specifically what it was?

The car passed tech after the race, but I guess Knaus had pushed the limits on legality and wanted Jimmie to cover his tail just in case.

#848 John B

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 23:27

Hendrick's argument that the same car had passed inspection at prior races has been used before by other busted teams and is kind of meaningless....not like the car sat impounded ever since Talladega last fall.

Roush has used the 'outside part supplier' on at least 3 occasions....

#849 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 14:50

Was watching NASCAR Now on ESPN before, and they were talking about Knaus' suspension and his priors... can anyone update me on what happened at 'Dega last year with the #48? They showed a clip of CK talking to Jimmie saying that if he won he had to damage the rear of the car somehow, presumably so the damage would hide some quasi-legal part, but does anyone know specifically what it was?

CK was afraid the car would be too low when measured for height after the race, so CK wanted so damage on it so he could put the blame there if he needed to.
Not so smart to talk about on the comm link.
The car did end up passing after all, but for the next few races CK and the 48 were getting the hairy eyeball by the tech crew.

#850 pingu666

pingu666
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  • 8,881 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 03 March 2012 - 15:07

btw robby gordon uses some penske engines and some of his building, he started doing that sometime last year "to control his own destiny"

If rgm could get the dodge deal to make the engines, that would be pretty cool