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Caterham F1 - 2012


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#51 Stormsky68

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 23:07

Is it really important to have a strong link between F1 and the civy street product?

Motor racing and fizzy bull spunk drinks couldn't be further apart yet RB seem realise value

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#52 hippie

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 23:11

I agree totally!!! It's a huge shot in the arm for Caterham.

But starting from the point of view of Tony Fernandes wanting a car company to go with his F1 team, how much sense did Caterham make?

The brand is a fun brand but cheap and not that strong anyway. Kit cars. The infrastructure is for welding, riveting alloy and bolting parts together. Slowly.

He could have started from scratch, built a new brand with F1 and started in a new factory in the right place with the right facilities.

It's not just the Seven. Caterham Cars wants to develop new models, more mainstream road cars. That's why they went to Fernandes, hoping he would finance their plans.

Fernandes has an F1 team, which he wanted to use to give more exposure to a road car company, Lotus Cars. But Lotus Cars had different plans and they chose another F1 team to work with, so Fernandes was overjoyed he could do with Caterham what he had tried to do earlier with Lotus. It's a happy marriage, really.

#53 sesku

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 23:17

why comparing Caterham 7 with other car. Caterham is basically a road legal race car same as Caparo T1, Ariel Atom and KTM X-Bow. nonsense at all.

#54 mechadaniel

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 23:18

So hippie...

Two Finn's in F1 next year, which one are you supporting?

:rotfl:

Heikki's reaction was amusing:

https://twitter.com/#!/H_Kovalainen/sta...459442226040832

Great to see Kimi coming back, Finnish championship as well as world championship again in F1!



#55 cbbcisace

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 23:31

Some big news coming out of Caterham apparently. He was right last night even though he was a few hours out.

@jamesallenonf1

After Kimi bombshell, some more big news from Lotus Renault could be coming shortly; significant change, if what I hear is true


Ross I think that is Renault he is talking about not Team Lotus.

#56 hippie

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 23:38

So hippie...

Two Finn's in F1 next year, which one are you supporting?

:rotfl:

Both, of course. ;)

The more the merrier. In 2013 I hope Valtteri Bottas joins Heikki and Kimi. :)

#57 undersquare

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 00:14

It's not just the Seven. Caterham Cars wants to develop new models, more mainstream road cars. That's why they went to Fernandes, hoping he would finance their plans.

Fernandes has an F1 team, which he wanted to use to give more exposure to a road car company, Lotus Cars. But Lotus Cars had different plans and they chose another F1 team to work with, so Fernandes was overjoyed he could do with Caterham what he had tried to do earlier with Lotus. It's a happy marriage, really.

Mmm, good link, OK I guess Tony Shute makes a difference. Well fingers crossed for them.

I still would probably have poached Shute and his guys and gone for a clean slate and a brand that didn't sound like 'catering' :lol:

But then who's richer, me or Tony Fernandes? :D Hope it all works out.



#58 Slartibartfast

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 00:25

Facepalm?

I just proved how SMALL Caterham the town is :lol: .

Sorry, how?

No of course not.

I'm talking value not performance, obviously. Cost of production. If Honda were making a car that did the 7's job, it would be £4999 or something, tops.

Given that Caterham is, as you posted earlier, solvent, they must be making a profit on their cars. If Honda can make an equivalent car for "£4999 or something" then why don't they? They could sell it for £5999 or something, or £6999 or something or even £15999 or something. Clearly the market exists at the c£16000 point, so they could undercut Caterham and make 200% mark-up on each car sold.
But they don't. Nor is any Honda currently for sale in the UK remotely comparable to Caterham 7.

We both know that comparing a Honda Civic to a Caterham 7 is a specious argument. It has about the same merit as comparing a 599 GTO to a Jag XJ.


#59 senna da silva

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 00:26

Considering Caterham's close proximity to Croydon, if they ever sign Lewis.............................

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#60 undersquare

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 00:49

Sorry, how?

Given that Caterham is, as you posted earlier, solvent, they must be making a profit on their cars. If Honda can make an equivalent car for "£4999 or something" then why don't they? They could sell it for £5999 or something, or £6999 or something or even £15999 or something. Clearly the market exists at the c£16000 point, so they could undercut Caterham and make 200% mark-up on each car sold.
But they don't. Nor is any Honda currently for sale in the UK remotely comparable to Caterham 7.

We both know that comparing a Honda Civic to a Caterham 7 is a specious argument. It has about the same merit as comparing a 599 GTO to a Jag XJ.

What is it with this thread??

Yes the Civic is not like the 7. Well done!! FFS.

What it is is vastly more complex and sophisticated, YET Honda can sell it for the same price as Caterham need to charge for the 7.

Honda are not interested in making a couple of hundred cars a year, at any price. They do more like 3 MILLION Jazz'.

Tony Fernandes is not interested in making spaceframe Caterhams either, he wants to make Lotus-alikes, with composites.

Caterham make a very primitive METAL car very inefficiently. NOT with composites.

So the infrastructure is not much use, you would think. Is my point.

Doesn't mean I'm against TF or Caterham or Kimi.

#61 Slartibartfast

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:07

What is it with this thread??

Yes the Civic is not like the 7. Well done!! FFS.

What it is is vastly more complex and sophisticated, YET Honda can sell it for the same price as Caterham need to charge for the 7.

Honda are not interested in making a couple of hundred cars a year, at any price. They do more like 3 MILLION Jazz'.

Tony Fernandes is not interested in making spaceframe Caterhams either, he wants to make Lotus-alikes, with composites.

Caterham make a very primitive METAL car very inefficiently. NOT with composites.

So the infrastructure is not much use, you would think. Is my point.

Doesn't mean I'm against TF or Caterham or Kimi.

No the Civic is not like the 7. Yet it was not me that drew the comparison initially, was it?

I agree that Honda are not interested in low volume production. That's why they cancelled the several-hundered-per-year selling NSX (not because it was slower than the cheaper 7).

I doubt if either Fernandes or Caterham have any plans to produce any model in the volume Honda do.

You may not identify the synergies of Caterham and an F1 team. Fernandes apparently does.

#62 flowerdew

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 02:19

Considering Caterham's close proximity to Croydon, if they ever sign Lewis.............................


...we all know THAT will never happen! From what I hear, he's positively vile about Croydon.

#63 ferruccio

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 03:03

I agree totally!!! It's a huge shot in the arm for Caterham.

But starting from the point of view of Tony Fernandes wanting a car company to go with his F1 team, how much sense did Caterham make?

The brand is a fun brand but cheap and not that strong anyway. Kit cars. The infrastructure is for welding, riveting alloy and bolting parts together. Slowly.

He could have started from scratch, built a new brand with F1 and started in a new factory in the right place with the right facilities.


Totally agree with your sentiments. The short answer is, Tony did not do his homework properly but that's how he is.. rather impulsive. If someone courts him and he is smitten.. its a done deal. No one in the auto industry can comprehend why Caterham. There are other possibly more synergistic partnership options. Lola would have been a good choice but I think Tony needed a manufacturer even if it was pseudo manufacturer and of course the distant link to Lotus

A lopsided relationship and with tremendous marketing boost for Caterham. As for Caterham offering technical benefits to the F1 team.. I sincerely doubt they have anything the F1 team would want.

#64 tormave

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 05:59

Two Finn's in F1 next year, which one are you supporting?

It's more like 2.5 if you count the fact that Nico has a Finnish passport and raced with a Finnish license until GP2. If Bottas finds a seat at Williams, it'll be 3.5 Finns. A Finnish record!

#65 BellisEndis

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 08:22

What is it with this thread??

Yes the Civic is not like the 7. Well done!! FFS.

What it is is vastly more complex and sophisticated, YET Honda can sell it for the same price as Caterham need to charge for the 7.

Honda are not interested in making a couple of hundred cars a year, at any price. They do more like 3 MILLION Jazz'.

Tony Fernandes is not interested in making spaceframe Caterhams either, he wants to make Lotus-alikes, with composites.

Caterham make a very primitive METAL car very inefficiently. NOT with composites.

So the infrastructure is not much use, you would think. Is my point.

Doesn't mean I'm against TF or Caterham or Kimi.



I don't think TF brought Carterham because of the existing infrastructure they have to build his new road car, I believe plans are for a bigger F1/New Road Car/ Development complex at the old TWR site or something along the lines IIRC with no doubt newer technology to build a car ;) the current 7 will continue to be built where it is...

Edited by BellisEndis, 30 November 2011 - 08:29.


#66 Red17

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 09:22

Amazing how much hatred runs into some people's mind.

So Fernandes licences the Lotus Racing name, it's a travesty because it's not THE Team Lotus of old and the Clive Chapman support is hollow because the Chapmans had sold Lotus.
Fernandes buys the rights for THE Team Lotus, it's a travesty because it's not THE Lotus that builds road cars and has the support of Clive Chapman, it's a front.
Fernandes (indirectly) sells Team Lotus to Group Lotus and states that he wants to expand a small and unknown sport car company. It's a travesty because it's a company lost in the wilds of England and he should just start his own from scratch.

While I do not own a 7 I do own a Civic, and having someone compare it to the 7 fills me with laugh.
Unfortunatley the Civic can only own the 7 in numbers while the 7 can own a Porsche on the race track. Seems like we are back to the old days, just justifies my opinion that this team should have sticked with the Lotus name.

#67 undersquare

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 09:54

Totally agree with your sentiments. The short answer is, Tony did not do his homework properly but that's how he is.. rather impulsive. If someone courts him and he is smitten.. its a done deal. No one in the auto industry can comprehend why Caterham. There are other possibly more synergistic partnership options. Lola would have been a good choice but I think Tony needed a manufacturer even if it was pseudo manufacturer and of course the distant link to Lotus

A lopsided relationship and with tremendous marketing boost for Caterham. As for Caterham offering technical benefits to the F1 team.. I sincerely doubt they have anything the F1 team would want.

Thank you!! What a relief to have a sane post about it :love:

While I do not own a 7 I do own a Civic, and having someone compare it to the 7 fills me with laugh.
Unfortunatley the Civic can only own the 7 in numbers while the 7 can own a Porsche on the race track. Seems like we are back to the old days, just justifies my opinion that this team should have sticked with the Lotus name.

I was NOT 'comparing' a Civic with a 7, except to point out that the two are utterly DIFFERENT in terms of complexity, but the SAME PRICE.

Anyway yes ferruccio, an implusive Tony Fernandes is just how it looks. It can still work out, after all the first rule of being an entrepreneur is to do things, some of which will be right and some wrong. So here's hoping.

#68 GhostR

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 09:56

What it is is vastly more complex and sophisticated, YET Honda can sell it for the same price as Caterham need to charge for the 7.

Suspect it's more a case of Caterham charging as much as they can get away with in the current market so as to maximise their profits. It's likely that if they needed to, they could drop the price significantly and still turn a profit. There's not much like-for-like competition for the Caterham 7, so as long as they don't go too extreme they can pretty much charge what they like.

Unlike the Honda, which will be priced at a point where the profit margin is at a minimum: competition in that market niche is fierce, so there's no room to pad out the mark up to boost profit.


#69 One

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 10:07

Amazing how much hatred runs into some people's mind.

So Fernandes licences the Lotus Racing name, it's a travesty because it's not THE Team Lotus of old and the Clive Chapman support is hollow because the Chapmans had sold Lotus.
Fernandes buys the rights for THE Team Lotus, it's a travesty because it's not THE Lotus that builds road cars and has the support of Clive Chapman, it's a front.
Fernandes (indirectly) sells Team Lotus to Group Lotus and states that he wants to expand a small and unknown sport car company. It's a travesty because it's a company lost in the wilds of England and he should just start his own from scratch.

While I do not own a 7 I do own a Civic, and having someone compare it to the 7 fills me with laugh.
Unfortunatley the Civic can only own the 7 in numbers while the 7 can own a Porsche on the race track. Seems like we are back to the old days, just justifies my opinion that this team should have sticked with the Lotus name.



:)


As of future of Caterham, I notice one thing. Toyota recently released a new model called 86, a sport version which has Subaru WRS 2 litter Boxer. FR-Front Midship car comes to market with water tight 'normal' car market. Toyota talks about enthusiasts cars, replacing MR2, which was engineered by Lotus Cars years a go. Now if Caterham were to join in the market this is kinda curious how and which market they comes into.

Besides, Next year's car should have immediate access to prose money from C1, so looking forward. they seems to have no new drivers, but that should balance their aggressive technical challenges. I hope it proves smart at the end of the year. We have to see, and I am looking forward to see it happening. In the same 'league' teams like Marussia and HRT, Caterham does possesses more elements to excel. Do we agree?

#70 GhostR

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 10:17

Quick question re: drivers for next year... What's your preference:

Incumbents Stay
1. Kovalainen + Trulli

Hot Rumour
2. Kovalainen + Ricciardo

Was Rumoured, But Died Down
3. Kovalainen + Vergne


I'm a 2. myself. I've never really rated Trulli as a race driver, and I think he's lost what little edge he did have. Plus I really, really want to see Ricciardo in a race seat against a known team mate for the full season.

#71 undersquare

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 10:21

Suspect it's more a case of Caterham charging as much as they can get away with in the current market so as to maximise their profits. It's likely that if they needed to, they could drop the price significantly and still turn a profit. There's not much like-for-like competition for the Caterham 7, so as long as they don't go too extreme they can pretty much charge what they like.

Unlike the Honda, which will be priced at a point where the profit margin is at a minimum: competition in that market niche is fierce, so there's no room to pad out the mark up to boost profit.

Well you would think a 7 could be made and sold for less that £15k with no roof or heater, indeed.

But I thought Caterham were merely 'solvent'? The only figures I can find are in 2008 a profit of £2m on sales of £133m, though in 2010 it was a 'record' profit. If that's about right then there's not much room for manoeuvre there.

#72 One

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:01

Quick question re: drivers for next year... What's your preference:

Incumbents Stay
1. Kovalainen + Trulli

Hot Rumour
2. Kovalainen + Ricciardo

Was Rumoured, But Died Down
3. Kovalainen + Vergne


I'm a 2. myself. I've never really rated Trulli as a race driver, and I think he's lost what little edge he did have. Plus I really, really want to see Ricciardo in a race seat against a known team mate for the full season.


Ricciardo show some bits this year. But he is under Red Bull. Unless The Team gets massive back ups from Red Bull it is no go-er, I think as Team Lotus' young star are also interesting. It may be massively undermining the moral growth of The Team's Kids. Problem is that Trulli is not aggressive, it seems. he kinda sit in his car and judge if he should drive. I rather say to arrange a deal where He will swap seats when ever Trulli is not switched on with what ever reasons with the young son.

#73 Red17

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:31

Heikki is secure

#74 puxanando

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:42

Trulli train also!

#75 Verderer

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:49

Next in program: undersquare will compare a £15k wristwatch to the Caterham 7, and shows how the 7 is a very bad time piece....

#76 Red17

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:52

Trulli train also!

It deserves a picture! (image owned by Mantovani, all rights reserved as in image)
Posted Image

#77 krapmeister

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:58

Suspect it's more a case of Caterham charging as much as they can get away with in the current market so as to maximise their profits. It's likely that if they needed to, they could drop the price significantly and still turn a profit. There's not much like-for-like competition for the Caterham 7, so as long as they don't go too extreme they can pretty much charge what they like.

Unlike the Honda, which will be priced at a point where the profit margin is at a minimum: competition in that market niche is fierce, so there's no room to pad out the mark up to boost profit.


It's not just about what they can get away with charging, you also have to factor in economies of scale - Honda sold over half a million cars in America alone in 2010. Comparing an automotive giant to a small niche sportscar manufacturer isn't really a fair comparison. Also, considering that Caterham are apparently only just making a profit then it's not really charging what they can get away with as much as charging what they need to turn a profit...



#78 undersquare

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 12:26

Next in program: undersquare will compare a £15k wristwatch to the Caterham 7, and shows how the 7 is a very bad time piece....

it was too difficult

#79 GlenP

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 12:59

To be fair, the nature of Caterham road cars is totally irrelevant to their F1 project. About as connected as Bennetton jumpers to the old race team. For that matter, look at the current top team - they are a drinks manufacturer... F1 is not going to spill over into the way they make a beverage any more than F1 is going to spill over into the way a Caterham 7 is designed and built. Or any new car for that matter. McLaren make sports cars with carbon chassis - but really that is just the daft conceit of McLaren and Ron Dennis, because aluminium would be a far more sensible material at an acceptable (ie minor) weight penalty.

As an exciting road car the Caterham 7 is still unrivaled, in my opinion, because it brilliantly makes driving at any speed an event. Without stretching you can put the palm of your hand flat on the road; even with the hood up it will drive under car park barriers; many of your friends will not even be able to get in it (get the real one, not the fat man's SV) - etc etc. Brilliant, joyous thing. But good value is something they have lost sight of, and great detail design extending to every facet of the car is something they have never taken seriously.

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#80 Tony Mandara

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 13:18

To be fair, the nature of Caterham road cars is totally irrelevant to their F1 project. About as connected as Bennetton jumpers to the old race team. For that matter, look at the current top team - they are a drinks manufacturer... F1 is not going to spill over into the way they make a beverage any more than F1 is going to spill over into the way a Caterham 7 is designed and built...........


Hmmm, I don't know Glen...

F1 car. >> As small as possible>> tightly packaged>> lightweight materials>> Costs Too much!

Can of RedBull. >> As small as possible>> tightly packaged>> lightweight materials>> Costs Too much!

 ;)  ;)

Myabe Tony should have bought out these guys?...

http://www.fernandes...des-soft-drinks

 ;)



#81 Slartibartfast

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 13:36

it was too difficult

What? Where's your ambition? Lewis wouldn't give up that easily!

Ferrari Granturismo Chronograph 45 mm, £17314 vs Caterham Classic, factory-built, £17495

Movement:
automatic mechanical, Panerai OP XII calibre, 13¼ lignes, 27 jewels. Monometallic Glucydur® balance, 28,800 alternations/hour. Incabloc® anti-shock device. Power reserve 46 hours, Côtes de Genève decoration, blued screws. Rotor engraved with the Prancing Horse. Chronometer Certificate (C.O.S.C.).
vs
front-engined, rear-wheel-drive. 1.4 litre 4-cylinder DOHC petrol engine. 14" alloy wheels. 5-speed gearbox. 36 litre fuel tank. 12v 30 amp-hour battery.

Functions:
hours, minutes, small seconds, chronograph with two counters, tachymeter scale.
vs
goes forwards, backwards, turns corners, parks

Case:
diameter 45 mm, in pink gold with polished finish and brushed edges, screw-down chronograph push-pieces and winding crown with the Ferrari logo and rims worked with square-grid pattern.
vs
tubular steel space frame, aluminium panels with aluminium honeycomb cockpit protection, GRP nosecone and wings.

Bezel:
pink gold with brushed finish.
vs
Avon 185/60 R 14 Avon ZV3

Back:
pink gold, screw-in, with engraving of the Prancing Horse and geometric pattern decoration; round the edge is engraved the inscription “Engineered by OFFICINE PANERAI”.
vs
rear wheel, rear light cluster, number plate, optional inscription "Built by Bob".

Dial:
black with square-grid decoration, Ferrari logo and Prancing Horse at 12 o’clock, 60-minute scale with Arabic numerals at 5-minute intervals, tachymeter scale on the flange, small continuous seconds at 9 o’clock and minute counter at 3 o’clock with applied cone-section rings in pink gold, brushed steel skeleton baton hour and minute hands.
vs
speedometer, tachometer, oil-pressure gauge, temperature gauge, fuel gauge.

Crystal:
sapphire, 1.9 mm thick. Anti-reflective coating.
vs
ice, black (winter only).

Water-resistance:
10 bar (100 metres).
vs
about 4 inches

Strap:
black alligator with contrasting stitching, inside part in red caiman with red sewing, personalised folding buckle in brushed pink gold with the edge of the closure in polished finish. Spare strap in rubber with the incised inscription Ferrari.
vs
black nylon seatbelt (4-point option), optional tippexed slogan "Clunk-Click Every Trip".


Summary:
The watch goes round and round, clockwise only, with three speeds - the car goes forwards with 5 speeds and backwards with one.
The watch has a turning circle the size of a watch-face - the car has a turning circle the size of Big Ben's face.
The more you move the watch around, the greater it's battery life - the more you move the car around the less it's battery life, fuel, tyres...
The car is poor at keeping time as it cannot even do 0-100kmh in a round number of seconds.
The car will not fit comfortably on your wrist and leaves a large bulge in even the best tailored suit pocket.
The insurance is cheaper on the watch.
You do not need to tax or MOT the watch.
BUT, if it goes wrong, do not attempt to open the bonnet on the watch and "have a little fiddle around".
When you need to get to that important meeting on time, the Caterham will (probably) get you there, but you won't know whether you're late or not. The watch will simply tell you how late you are as you walk to the meeting and what an idiot you were to spend all that money on a watch instead of a car.

#82 mechadaniel

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 17:26

To be fair, the nature of Caterham road cars is totally irrelevant to their F1 project.


Well... If you mean the 7 then I suppose yes - but then my 7 has an inboard front suspension that wouldn't look out of place on a 70's F1 car :)

If you listen to the new TL podcast, there is a quick bit at the end about Caterham and the new car. Apart from the usual "using F1 techneques to make a sports car" that we have heard so many times, from so many teams before, there was a few nuggets of information - the chassis design is finished and it is "very light", and the plan still is for the car to cost 30K

Ferrari Granturismo Chronograph 45 mm, £17314 vs Caterham Classic, factory-built, £17495


Bloody garagistas :lol:

#83 Mendel

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 20:13

I´d really prefer if it is Kovy + Ricciardo so then we have more ground to compare where Heikki is at.
+ if Heikki gives a solid spanking to Ricciardo, I think that means Red Bull doors are wide open to Heikki... they should be when he beats their golden boy, right?

Anyways, I hope Heikki also occasionally manages to beat Kimi like he has beaten some Renault drivers this year.;)

#84 DinocoBlue

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 20:25

Anyways, I hope Heikki also occasionally manages to beat Kimi like he has beaten some Renault drivers this year.;)

Oh that'd be great to see. Plus even though the name issue is sorted, there will be something special about a Caterham overtaking a Lotus.;)

#85 Red17

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 20:38

+ if Heikki gives a solid spanking to Ricciardo, I think that means Red Bull doors are wide open to Heikki... they should be when he beats their golden boy, right?

Dont get your hopes high, and Heiki would fare better in a team Like McLaren or even Ferrari.

#86 mechadaniel

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 22:42

Dont get your hopes high, and Heiki would fare better in a team Like McLaren or even Ferrari.


Well, it didn't go too well last time at McLaren...

#87 One

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 00:01

So what is THE subject of this thread?

BTW i think that Caterham F1team Will force their way forward on its way overtaking some established team. How it goes we will see and how fast it will go we guess It Will BE a rapid one. In relationships to Caterham road car I assume there is not much pressure as of now simply because the car has this hobbie character. Some compare Civic Vtech with Caterham but I see no prob if I have Vtech I might still want 7 to get on with my sports driving and for that 7 has good price. I only have to sell more gasses to own one of 7.
Caterham cars will replace current Lotus Cars Market as Lotus Cars head their way up to compete Porsche and eventually Ferrari. There is therefore huge fanbase already for Caterham Road Cars.

More question can be paused to a normal car company like Honda Toyota Or Seat as they are responsible for delivering safe cars that allows house wife's to travel safely to her work. On the contrary 7 is safely rid this boring responsibility, this mediocracy, therefore anchoring the brand value in between the generic car market. 7 does not compete neither Lexus nor ferrari that us a huge advantage. Period.


(edit iPhone still sucks)

Edited by One, 01 December 2011 - 00:09.


#88 Matt Somers

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 01:51

Been in the US/Canada for a few days so hadn't seen this thread. Tony is basically implementing the original plan but in a reformatted way having gotten a cash bump from Group Lotus on the way. The original plan was to wait for Danny Bahar to sink the Lotus brand (as I still think is possible) and then Phoenix Lotus road cars using TL as an advertising platform.
I think Tonys overall plan for Caterham is great and although there has been 3 names to the team already I will still remain a fan. I was a long term/suffering fan of BAR/Honda until having the great year of Brawn GP, I couldn't bring myself to support Mercedes for some reason (the team just seemed to lose its soul) so I have supported LR/TL since. (although I do still love watching JB drive)
Good luck to Caterham for 2012!

#89 ferruccio

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 04:56

How it goes we will see and how fast it will go we guess It Will BE a rapid one.

Can you explain why you believe it WILL BE rapid? There is no magic pill in the world of F1 unless the pill starts with Adrian and ends with Newey :) :). Caterham F1 will have KERS in the coming season and they will probably be able to score some points.. its now a must for them. But 'rapid'? I doubt it.

Caterham cars will replace current Lotus Cars Market as Lotus Cars head their way up to compete Porsche and eventually Ferrari.


Yes Caterham has its own customer base which you can assume will make up the bulk of the fans. However it isn't massive.

As for replacing current Lotus Cars Market?? Maybe.. maybe not. I'm not sure I can imagine a Lotus Elise/Exige owner giving up his car for a Caterham. Adding to his collection is plausible but swapping?.. not too sure.

As for Lotus Cars competing against Porsche and eventually Ferrari??? :wave: Good luck with that. They'll need it.

#90 davemsc

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 12:54

Well, it didn't go too well last time at McLaren...

Particularly in '09 when Hamilton got all the new parts before Heikki. Not really a season where a good comparison between both drivers can be made.

#91 mechadaniel

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 12:55

I'm not sure I can imagine a Lotus Elise/Exige owner giving up his car for a Caterham. Adding to his collection is plausible but swapping?.. not too sure.


Ah, but what Caterham? Not many will swap for a 7, they will miss their cupholders, but the new car sounds like it is being aimed straight at Elise owners.

#92 GlenP

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 13:00

Ah, but what Caterham? Not many will swap for a 7, they will miss their cupholders, but the new car sounds like it is being aimed straight at Elise owners.

As soon as Caterham make a car with, for example, air con and cupholders they take a step into the wrong territory. They should refer back to the original Chapman ethos and add only lightness, imo.

#93 One

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 13:08

Can you explain why you believe it WILL BE rapid? There is no magic pill in the world of F1 unless the pill starts with Adrian and ends with Newey :) :). Caterham F1 will have KERS in the coming season and they will probably be able to score some points.. its now a must for them. But 'rapid'? I doubt it.


Ferruccio, naturally I do not know exactly, but it coms with guys who join the boat this year. FI went somewhat down and the down curve was not significant, as it had speed already. On the contrary, as long as caterham capable of producing what FI did this year, could engineer what FI is capable of, there are lots of cases that the technologies will be used to 2012 Caterham cars. naturally working around KERS sets a massive, massive engineering demands for this little team so I expect some glitches and DNF's finishes, upon which the danger of the whole technical on chassis can easily becomes ... Well At least Chassis will be better, as the team will simple build a better car than 2011, and its design will be more up to date.

Yes Caterham has its own customer base which you can assume will make up the bulk of the fans. However it isn't massive.


It does not mater if it is big now, the plan has been made to sell cars in China and other Aisan market which will grow quicker. All kids will be driving Caterham, and that would mean Kids from China in Canada and US will be driving Caterham sooner than later.

As for replacing current Lotus Cars Market?? Maybe.. maybe not. I'm not sure I can imagine a Lotus Elise/Exige owner giving up his car for a Caterham. Adding to his collection is plausible but swapping?.. not too sure.


Well Lotus Cars will not produce the new model of current philosophy if the plan by Dany Bahar is already running. Lotus Cars will produce heavier cars which does not run like current model. If Caterham will come into replace the curernt Lotus model, then the choice for royal Lotus road car fans are rather obvious.

As for Lotus Cars competing against Porsche and eventually Ferrari??? :wave: Good luck with that. They'll need it.


I know, i can hardly imagine this as well, we had huge discussions as well, but it is their business plan.

#94 falkenauge

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 13:11

I felt sorry that the guys from Lotus F1 Team has to change her teamname to Caterham F1! The Renault team is so unsympatic, it can´t be right that they are now the follower of the great, legendary formula 1 team Lotus. It can´t be!

#95 GlenP

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 13:16

…Lotus Cars will produce heavier cars which does not run like current model. If Caterham will come into replace the curernt Lotus model, then the choice for royal Lotus road car fans are rather obvious…

That sort of makes sense, I guess. But even an Elise is actually quite a heavy car (comparatively) - if they go beyond that kind of mark I think they destroy part of the appeal.

#96 One

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 13:22

That sort of makes sense, I guess. But even an Elise is actually quite a heavy car (comparatively) - if they go beyond that kind of mark I think they destroy part of the appeal.


I agree, I personally would have liked to put Lotus cars into Tony's hands and see more light weight sports cars from Lotus Cars. but the plan did not work out. "Grand" Vision of Dany Bahar ironically took Lotus Group to more Luxury market and void the products that currently Lotus Cars users holds on to. caterham is planning, I assume, to come into it, or else please tell me what their plan is.

There is a possibility that current Light weight Lotus owners will "upgrade" their status by moving heavier with Lotus Cars. If 50% of owners will Upgrades himself to a heavier Lotus Cars' new product line then Caterham will gets say the good part of remaining half to its customer. I have no marketing data nor expectation numbers o customers behaviors, but it is kinda logical to think that Caterham that produces 7 will attain the most likely attentions from Lotus owners.

#97 undersquare

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 13:34

IMO Tony is going to have to work harder to turn Caterham into a £30k sportscar manufacturer than he would have had to doing it some other way, but he can still do it and I hope he does. It's an extremely difficult market though with a Boxter/Z4 being only ~£35k, as Lotus have found.

On the F1 car I'm expecting a big step forward with the Renault engine, Red Bull gearbox and hydraulics, and more development from Gazza.

#98 One

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 13:44

I assume it is better of remaining in 17k market rather than moving to 30k?
Caterham can produce core parts and assembly while the rest can be done in say Asia? This is how Honda would want to do, pls pay attention to a production base in japan being High Tech products Parts, but could work...

#99 mechadaniel

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 13:53

That sort of makes sense, I guess. But even an Elise is actually quite a heavy car (comparatively) - if they go beyond that kind of mark I think they destroy part of the appeal.


Fm the Brazil podcast:
http://www.teamlotus.co.uk/podcasts

I want to bring the knowledge of Formula One into the car industry but make it affordable. sort of, you know without making it a cliche, but where Lotus used to feature quite heavily, the affordable sports car, lightweight, powerful, er, easy to use. And those plans have already started, we've building our chassis already, we are looking at the car being very light actually, and in the price range of about 30 thousand pounds.


Edited by mechadaniel, 01 December 2011 - 13:53.


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#100 GlenP

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 14:00

I'll believe it when I see it.

No £30k car uses "F1 knowledge". What does that even mean? will the engine be a stressed part o the chassis with the suspension hanging off it? No. Will it have a carbon chassis? No. It's just marketing, which is fine, but don't expect too much.

And he almost certainly picked the wrong audience to talk about very light - there's Caterham light, and then everything else which is at least half as heavy again.

Plus if he's saying around 30k, it'll be over 35k plus lots of extras by the time they start selling it. All ery negative and cynical I know, but the 7 formula takes a lot of beating.