Jump to content


Photo
* * * * - 8 votes

Caterham F1 - 2012


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
2169 replies to this topic

#101 mechadaniel

mechadaniel
  • Member

  • 729 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 01 December 2011 - 14:08

No £30k car uses "F1 knowledge". What does that even mean?


Well, how about for starters, some CFD and some wind tunnel time, after all the 7 holds the record of having the worst aero of any car in production :)


Advertisement

#102 GlenP

GlenP
  • Member

  • 3,403 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 01 December 2011 - 14:35

Well, how about for starters, some CFD and some wind tunnel time, after all the 7 holds the record of having the worst aero of any car in production :)

Aye, suppose so. In defence of the 7 though, the coefficient of drag is multiplied by the frontal area - which in the case of the 7 is minimal to say the least!

Loved the engine braking in my 7 (in part due to drag I guess) - almost never used the brakes in normal road driving, just skipped up and down the 6-speed. God I miss it (warts and all)!

#103 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 01 December 2011 - 14:50

I'll believe it when I see it.

No £30k car uses "F1 knowledge". What does that even mean? will the engine be a stressed part o the chassis with the suspension hanging off it? No. Will it have a carbon chassis? No. It's just marketing, which is fine, but don't expect too much.

And he almost certainly picked the wrong audience to talk about very light - there's Caterham light, and then everything else which is at least half as heavy again.

Plus if he's saying around 30k, it'll be over 35k plus lots of extras by the time they start selling it. All ery negative and cynical I know, but the 7 formula takes a lot of beating.


Meaning Four wheel exposed?

#104 GlenP

GlenP
  • Member

  • 3,403 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 01 December 2011 - 15:19

Meaning Four wheel exposed?

Huh? Lots of formula have open wheels, not just F1.

If a car manufacturer wants to use racing technology in their road car (esp a £30k car) they would be much better off looking at far less expensive formulae, and possibly F1 of 40/50 years ago.

#105 ferruccio

ferruccio
  • Member

  • 446 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 01 December 2011 - 15:53

Tony is pretty good at turning lemons into lemonade so no matter how things are right now in regards to this whole Caterham affair, he'll somehow make it all worthwhile I'm sure.

On how his F1 experience can help Caterham road cars.. I fail to see it. F1 tech development is quite irrelevant to road car development these days.. unless you want a road car that can pull in excess of 3gs through corners and parts with high performance but really short life span.

There is so much more relevant tech being developed by the auto industry itself and if there is any big name race series that can benefit road cars.. it'll probably be Le Mans.. not F1. You don't need F1 know-how to build great road cars these days

#106 mechadaniel

mechadaniel
  • Member

  • 729 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 01 December 2011 - 15:57

If a car manufacturer wants to use racing technology in their road car (esp a £30k car) they would be much better off looking at far less expensive formulae, and possibly F1 of 40/50 years ago.


OK.

How many roads cars now have what looks like a diffuser on the back?

Of those, how many were designed by a designer who went to art school and are completely cosmetic?
How many were designed by an automotive engineer?
How many were designed by an F1 aerodynamicist in her lunchbreak using CFD and tested in a wind tunnel?

:)

A thought - we know John Iley can't work on the F1 car until mid-season next year - is there anything stopping him working on a road car, it's not like it's going to compete with the 12c...

#107 GlenP

GlenP
  • Member

  • 3,403 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 01 December 2011 - 16:03

OK.

How many roads cars now have what looks like a diffuser on the back? Too many.

Of those, how many were designed by a designer who went to art school and are completely cosmetic? All of them, probably.
How many were designed by an automotive engineer? ?
How many were designed by an F1 aerodynamicist in her lunchbreak using CFD and tested in a wind tunnel? None.

:)

A thought - we know John Iley can't work on the F1 car until mid-season next year - is there anything stopping him working on a road car, it's not like it's going to compete with the 12c...


Edited by GlenP, 01 December 2011 - 16:04.


#108 Red17

Red17
  • Member

  • 3,390 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 01 December 2011 - 17:46

Getting this back to the F1 part of the topic...

With a former FI guy on board responsible for the new car how will next year's challenger be like? Will we see a son of this year's FI?

I expect the new design to be far more agressive. Caterham will have to take more risks.

Edited by Red17, 01 December 2011 - 17:48.


#109 DanardiF1

DanardiF1
  • Member

  • 6,758 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 01 December 2011 - 17:50

Getting this back to the F1 part of the topic...

With a former FI guy on board responsible for the new car how will next year's challenger be like? Will we see a son of this year's FI? I expect the new design to be far more agressive.


I'm expecting little cues that point towards Force India's design philosophy, but the team as a whole influences the design, so it won't be too similar. I'm thinking that they will move forward with most of the current design, as it's a very compact car, but with more aggression on the aero side, seeing as they've had more wind tunnel time and more personnel working on it.

#110 DinocoBlue

DinocoBlue
  • Member

  • 445 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 01 December 2011 - 19:02

As they've said, having stability with the engine and gear box helps the design process. I wonder just how much of the T128 will be carried over to the C1?

#111 DanardiF1

DanardiF1
  • Member

  • 6,758 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 01 December 2011 - 19:14

As they've said, having stability with the engine and gear box helps the design process. I wonder just how much of the T128 will be carried over to the C1?


I think as the body line is so slim and with such lovely undercut sidepods, there's a lot of valuable raw material there that shouldn't be thrown away. That part of the car won't need so much changing to fit rule changes either, so it's good to keep the data they have gained this year and work on it.

#112 Clave

Clave
  • New Member

  • 17 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 01 December 2011 - 19:29

Caterham is a town in Surrey


It is indeed... so hello from Caterham! :wave:

#113 DinocoBlue

DinocoBlue
  • Member

  • 445 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 01 December 2011 - 19:54

Well Heikki likes what he sees...

(Twitter)

Seat fit today in the factory, mock up car looks good and all went well. Now off to dinner in Norfolk!



#114 hippie

hippie
  • Member

  • 286 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 01 December 2011 - 21:10

For those who haven't read the latest Team Lotus Notes issues, here are some selected quotes that tell what the developers expect from the next year's Caterham F1 car.

In the Yas Marina edition of TLN, Chief Technical Officer Mike Gascoyne evaluates this year's car and he also tells how the next year's car will relate to the T128.

Finally, is the T128 the first of what you might call a
‘lineage’ car – the platform upon which the next few
years will be built?


I think the car will evolve quite a lot, but not in the total
redesign way we had in the first two years. We have a
stable design team now. Mark Smith has joined us and
that’s a tremendous boost, so we’ve got a lot of extra input.
There are many areas where we’ll take what we’ve got and
develop it rather than redesign it.

I would say that the 2012 car will look quite different
because of the regulation changes regarding the nose of
the car and things like that, but under the skin it will have a
lot of the T128’s DNA.

So yes, I think it is the start of a line of cars but I also
think the steps will be bigger than the others are making
because they have to be. To be honest, the T128 was a bit
rough around the edges!

Next year we’ll really benefit from the stability of the
design team, engine, gearbox, so you’ll see a big step next
year and a much more refined car than the T128.

So, whereas the T128 bore no similarity to the T127, next
year’s challenger will bear a family resemblance but it will
also be a big step forward.


In the Interlagos edition of TLN, Technical Director Mark Smith tells he's "quietly confident" about the next year's challenger.

How important is using the Williams wind tunnel and,
looking ahead to next year, boosting our resources and
increasing our pace of development?


I think the Williams wind tunnel is key for the medium-term
future. It’s clearly a wind tunnel that’s closer to us and is more
accessible. We can use it in conjunction with the tunnel at
Aerolab, meaning we can double our efforts.


Next year’s car will have largely the same drive-train. Does
that mean we’ll be further along the development road
than with our transition from 2010 to 2011?


There are a number of things that give me optimism for
next year’s car and that improve our potential. The engine,
gearbox and hydraulics are similar, so we didn’t have to wait for
decisions on those. We’re also using the rear impact structure
from Red Bull, so that helps around the rear of the car in terms
of what we would like to do aerodynamically, and also we’re
using the KERS.

That means that all of the long-term lead items in the
design process were known from a very early stage, which is a
bonus. Also we committed to KERS as part of the architecture,
as we believed that the architecture we were chasing in order
to accommodate KERS was better fundamentally anyway, even
if we didn’t run KERS. That then worked out in our favour as we
have brought KERS onto the car.

Other things contribute too. We have more people in
terms of developing the car, across all departments. The
whole group is bigger and the experience level is generally
higher with individuals and groups gelling together as a
more integrated team.

What we can never know, obviously, is what other
teams are doing. The revised regulations, we believe, do
favour us in relative terms. Where we are resource-wise
means we probably have less to lose than other teams as
we never maximised the exhaust-blown diffusers because
we simply didn’t have the resources to extract the most
from that system. So that’s another piece in the jigsaw to
give us more confidence than we had a while ago.


You’re already talking about the 2013 season. What’s
the long-term outlook and what do you feel this team
can achieve? World champions?


I hate being quoted on this! I do think that anybody in F1
who doesn’t have, in the back of their mind at least, an
ambition to be World Champion in the future probably
isn’t being truthful. It is the long-term goal, but to be honest
it’s such an enormous task that you have to set yourself
smaller, more achievable goals to progress.

In my own mind I’ve set myself realistic targets for next
year, which are to close the gap to our closest competitors
as of race one and then to continue to close the gap and to
be racing with them on a consistent basis by mid-season.
For me that would be an amazing step forward and far
more of an achievement than perhaps it would appear,
although I appreciate it doesn’t sound that ambitious.

The big hurdle to my mind is breaking into the top
four or five. Once you’ve positioned yourself, by virtue of
resources and positioning of the team, including budgets,
drivers, tools etc, only then can you really target the World
Championship and that is a way down the road for us. Do I
think that’s achievable ultimately? Absolutely.



#115 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 01 December 2011 - 22:13

Mark Smith does sound very clued up. He was in the Renault 05 team wasn't he.

Also I was reminded of this by grandprix.com

"Also moving at the same time are Lewis Butler, who will become the Chief Designer, and Marianne Hinson, who will become the Head of Aerodynamics. The three have previously worked with Lotus' chief technical officer Mike Gascoyne."

Now with their feet under the table, I think Williams will be under threat next year.

#116 mechadaniel

mechadaniel
  • Member

  • 729 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 02 December 2011 - 12:21

I think Williams will be under threat next year.


Dunno, I think I learnt the lesson last year, to not assume a team struggling one year to have similar problems the next...

Part of the reason I expected TL to be able to take on the midfield teams this year was that both Sauber and TR looked absolutely hopeless at times last season... However at the start of the season the two Ferrari engined teams charged off into the distance :)

#117 King Six

King Six
  • Member

  • 3,230 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 02 December 2011 - 12:52

Are we going to have another thread where the mighty Norfolk based clan will roll over and destroy the pitiful existing midfield teams :rotfl:

#118 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 02 December 2011 - 13:07

Caterham wil go forward, I do believe.
Red Bull 1 has that cooling problems, so new car always can have some problem. KERS should not be a such case so this sounds great.

Adding up some spices to Road Car talks: Flat aero dynamic Floor? It is odd but exclusively formula One technology, it is known that the aero floor will help more fuel efficiency of the car and raised top speed. Company doe not du it simply because customer do not see it and therefore do not sell it with higher price.

Oh, about 4 wheels,... No fender but exposed tires around mono-chassis. You could call it four open wheels with shells attached to it, which is visible in current front heels of 7. Visibly sportive feature of the 7.

#119 hippie

hippie
  • Member

  • 286 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 02 December 2011 - 14:35

Are we going to have another thread where the mighty Norfolk based clan will roll over and destroy the pitiful existing midfield teams :rotfl:

Let's hope that next year Caterham will be one of those pitiful midfield teams. ;)

It's perhaps worth noticing that while the technical reliability was very poor for Team Lotus in winter testing and in the first half of the 2011 season, the team managed to solve all those troubles before the second half of the season started. That definitely bodes well for the next season. With a reliable car it should be much easier to concentrate on looking for more pace.

Also, it seems that last winter Team Lotus could only use 50% of the allowed wind tunnel testing time, while their competitors used 100%. IIRC, Team Lotus has had access to the Williams wind tunnel since September 2011, so they should be now better prepared to take the fight to the midfield.


BTW, the latest tweet from Team Lotus says that Jarno and Heikki have just visited the factory to have their seat fit. No mention of Daniel Ricciardo, though.

Advertisement

#120 dau

dau
  • Member

  • 4,578 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 02 December 2011 - 14:42

Are we going to have another thread where the mighty Norfolk based clan will roll over and destroy the pitiful existing midfield teams :rotfl:

You mean a thread where some people repeatedly claim the team has announced to "destroy pitiful midfield teams"? Yea. Probably.

#121 mechadaniel

mechadaniel
  • Member

  • 729 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 02 December 2011 - 14:58

It's perhaps worth noticing that while the technical reliability was very poor for Team Lotus in winter testing and in the first half of the 2011 season, the team managed to solve all those troubles before the second half of the season started. That definitely bodes well for the next season. With a reliable car it should be much easier to concentrate on looking for more pace.


Wasn't one of the major issues at the start of he season, vibration from the Renault engine causing failures? So on that they should be OK.

We know that when designing the first car for an untested Cosworth engine, they were massively conservative with the cooling, so I guess this season as well even though they had access to more data, with a new engine install they would had additional cooling capacity just in case. So next year maybe they will have the confidence to start pushing boundaries...

Ah, but then there is the dreaded KERS cooling...

#122 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 02 December 2011 - 15:03

Dunno, I think I learnt the lesson last year, to not assume a team struggling one year to have similar problems the next...

Part of the reason I expected TL to be able to take on the midfield teams this year was that both Sauber and TR looked absolutely hopeless at times last season... However at the start of the season the two Ferrari engined teams charged off into the distance :)

Oh I'm not saying I'm sure at all.

But now the team at Caterham is established and they have some calibre - Gazza, Smith, Lewis Butler and Marianne Hinson. Not that I know too much about the last two except they were poached having worked with Gazza and Smith and that's a good sign.

They have the same windtunnel and the same engine, with an RBR gearbox and hydraulics. Williams don't have too much of a great car to carry forward and the team there is new/not a great history. Caterham probably have more money to spend.

And Kovy and Jarno whom I'd back to out-pedal Maldo and whoever.

So it's game on, is my bet.

#123 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 02 December 2011 - 19:22

Hope so, but....

Head left the F1 game, that is a big thing. Coughlan is now running the show with Summerville and how about it? not sure...

#124 ferruccio

ferruccio
  • Member

  • 446 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 03 December 2011 - 02:35

We know that when designing the first car for an untested Cosworth engine, they were massively conservative with the cooling, so I guess this season as well even though they had access to more data, with a new engine install they would had additional cooling capacity just in case. So next year maybe they will have the confidence to start pushing boundaries...

Ah, but then there is the dreaded KERS cooling...


Well the issue with the T127's cooling was that when it came time for Gascoyne to commit to the design of the car, they had not secured a deal with Cosworth and so the required engine cooling data was not available and so the team (at the time made up of Gascoyne and half a dozen people :) ) had to err on the safe side. It turned out at Bahrain the car was overcooling by 20%.

For the T128 they knew exactly the cooling requirements of the Renault V8. There was no need for additional cooling 'just in case'. Although the powertrain was a tested package for RBR, for Team Lotus it was a new package they had to learn and integrate to the rest of the car. The reliablity issues they suffered were not caused by the powertrain. They were hydraulic system related issues designed by them or their suppliers.

2011 season was certainly a learning season for them much the same s 2010 but with continuity of the car into 2012 they should be able to focus better on performance. Watch the winter testing and I think it will be clear whether they have come to grips with their car or otherwise. They should be on top of it and be poised to score some points next season. If not, then I think there is something fudamentally wrong with their technical team.

In an earlier post someone mentioned 50% windtunnel hours utilisation compared to the front teams presumably under RRA terms. I think Gascoyne mentioned in some earlier interviews that it is much less than that, before the deal with Williams. Their only windtunnel resource, as far as I knew was Aerolab in Italy and there were logistcial challenges with that. It was too far from their Norfolk factory and the windtunnel only operated under normal european working hours plus they had other clients.


#125 awizul

awizul
  • Member

  • 64 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 03 December 2011 - 07:23

BTW, the latest tweet from Team Lotus says that Jarno and Heikki have just visited the factory to have their seat fit. No mention of Daniel Ricciardo, though.


Maybe it's only for the shake down & winter testing where they need JT's sensitivity for some feedback on the new C1? TC1? TF1?.. who knows.. :rolleyes:

Edited by awizul, 03 December 2011 - 07:43.


#126 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 03 December 2011 - 08:26

Hope so, but....

Head left the F1 game, that is a big thing. Coughlan is now running the show with Summerville and how about it? not sure...

I guess we're about to find out some more about Mike Coughlan, but you have to think a big part of his qualifications will be that he's cheap. Maybe he's a genius and still has it, but meanwhile you have to think Mark Smith is a better bet for the 2012 car.

But Williams could well do better without Head looking over everyone's shoulder. It'll be interesting to see.

#127 jals99

jals99
  • Member

  • 778 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 03 December 2011 - 08:46

Maybe it's only for the shake down & winter testing where they need JT's sensitivity for some feedback on the new C1? TC1? TF1?.. who knows.. :rolleyes:

Possibly they are waiting to see how new power steering will suit Jarno, because if it will be repeat of 2011 story, Jarno would want to retire himself, may be talks with Red Bull are in case of new power steering problems
On the other side RB told they would like to sort all drivers before Christmas...

#128 King Six

King Six
  • Member

  • 3,230 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 04 December 2011 - 21:02

Let's hope that next year Caterham will be one of those pitiful midfield teams.;)

That doesn't make any sense, Caterham/Lotus and their fans think of all the other midfield teams as pitiful and that they'll be beating them with ease, why would they apply it to themselves.

#129 Nathan

Nathan
  • Member

  • 2,595 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 05 December 2011 - 02:28

Does Renault sell a RWD compatible 4 cylinder engine?

#130 Nathan

Nathan
  • Member

  • 2,595 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 05 December 2011 - 02:33

I don't get Caterham Cars at all. What do they bring to the party? Ultra-low-tech welded spaceframe and rivets.

If he'd bought Noble or Jensen or something that might have made sense.

How are those two any different?

#131 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 05 December 2011 - 11:37

I guess we're about to find out some more about Mike Coughlan, but you have to think a big part of his qualifications will be that he's cheap. Maybe he's a genius and still has it, but meanwhile you have to think Mark Smith is a better bet for the 2012 car.

But Williams could well do better without Head looking over everyone's shoulder. It'll be interesting to see.


Donno about none of it you mentioned about Williams. I guess only fans talk about designers and so on with enthusiasm, but discarding the potential...

Smith in combination with Mike Gascoyne and his team will be stronger than Mike Coughlan and Gascoyne and his team. It worked well in different teams in the recent past . Looking forward to a car that competes to FI 2011. Should the grid go forward in 2012? more specifically should Williams, Sauber and STR go faster than FI2011, and that will be the question. I think that Sauber better the game; STR is a bit of a question mark.

#132 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 05 December 2011 - 12:53

How are those two any different?

They were fully constructed cars.

#133 dau

dau
  • Member

  • 4,578 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 05 December 2011 - 14:51

They were fully constructed cars.

So one of those companies is pretty much dead since the late 70s, while the other produces few expensive niche supercars with no real prospects to expand into other markets. And weren't their chassis built in South Africa or something like that?

#134 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 05 December 2011 - 15:12

So one of those companies is pretty much dead since the late 70s, while the other produces few expensive niche supercars with no real prospects to expand into other markets. And weren't their chassis built in South Africa or something like that?

I'm not holding them up as anything apart from more suitable than Caterham.

Caterham tried a coupe and it bombed - it's a company best left to its own primitive niche, like Morgan, while what Tony wants to do is different in every way.

Not that he can't make Caterham work, but it would've been easier with a start-up IMO. He has no use whatsoever for Caterham's infrastructure and the brand value is nil-to-negative for his new segment of the market. He has a brand-building machine with his F1 team anyway so he could have chosen something more appealing, or used Jensen.

#135 GlenP

GlenP
  • Member

  • 3,403 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 05 December 2011 - 15:30

Don't think I'd go anywhere near that far, 'square. Something like an Elise but lighter and simpler would be fine - half way between a Caterham and a Lotus. Unfortunately quite a few ignoramuses think Caterham is a kit car, but I guess they'll learn eventually. The value of F1 association is purely marketing though, especially given the intended price point of the new car.

Still think Caterham's main challenge is quality - a more urgent need than marketing for sure.

#136 mechadaniel

mechadaniel
  • Member

  • 729 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 05 December 2011 - 15:45

Unfortunately quite a few ignoramuses think Caterham is a kit car, but I guess they'll learn eventually.


Hope not, or I won't be able to drive into kit car shows for free anymore :)

From the twitter feed:

https://twitter.com/#!/MyTeamLotus/stat...661125681160192

Today @KarunChandhok stops by the factory to say hello... and surprises some factory tour guests while he's here http://yfrog.com/esthcfzj


Interesting... No mention of having a seat fitting...


#137 WBarnato

WBarnato
  • Member

  • 84 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 05 December 2011 - 15:49

Call me Mr Naïve but I was under the impression that Tony Fernandes was acting out the age old saying of “Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday”. This was the same stagey that he was hoping to use with Lotus. Indeed it’s the same strategy that Danny Bahr is using with Lotus.

I don’t see a major problem with the Caterham brand in F1. For years it has been a brand that has been strongly associated with racing (albeit at a lower level than the Porsche and Ferrari GT series), a move into F1 is not necessarily a bad thing for either parties.

As for the Jenson and Noble examples mentioned, the most important thing to remember was that Tony Fernandes wanted a sportscar manufacturer that was available, Lotus alas was not. More so with Caterham Ansar Ali actually approached him.

Regarding Glen’s remark:

“Still think Caterham's main challenge is quality - a more urgent need than marketing for sure.”

I think that this is the same for Lotus as well.


#138 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 05 December 2011 - 15:49

Don't think I'd go anywhere near that far, 'square. Something like an Elise but lighter and simpler would be fine - half way between a Caterham and a Lotus. Unfortunately quite a few ignoramuses think Caterham is a kit car, but I guess they'll learn eventually. The value of F1 association is purely marketing though, especially given the intended price point of the new car.

Still think Caterham's main challenge is quality - a more urgent need than marketing for sure.

Caterham has its challenges but they're not what TF wants to do anyway, which is a sportscar car in the £30k sector using composites. He's trying to do what Noble did, as far as I can see.

So a factory that welds tubes, rolls aluminium and bolts on a handful of bought-in bits to make a four-wheel motorbike is no use at all.

He won't get lighter than an Elise, surely, or simpler except maybe in how they make the floor. But even that would be better done starting from scratch without trying to convert a workforce and mess about with unsuitable facilities.

Quality will be an issue, I agree. He'll be up against low-end Porsches and BM's. And if he leaves the iconic 7 alone, which he must, that will always drag down the brand as a whole, because it's primitive whereas his new car is supposed to be F1.

So I think he's been splendidly potty. It makes me want to support him :D .

#139 mechadaniel

mechadaniel
  • Member

  • 729 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 05 December 2011 - 16:11

So a factory that welds tubes, rolls aluminium and bolts on a handful of bought-in bits to make a four-wheel motorbike is no use at all.


And I think that's where you are going wrong - Caterham doesn't "weld tubes", have no facilities to "weld tubes", and doesn't employee anyone to "weld tubes".

Which is why Caterham for TF is a blank sheet of paper.

Advertisement

#140 WBarnato

WBarnato
  • Member

  • 84 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 05 December 2011 - 16:15


...Indeed in John Tipler's book "The Lotus and Caterham Seven" it makes reference to the fact that the Dagenham factory is merely an assembly hall. All the manufacturing takes place at specialists and is brought in.

#141 GlenP

GlenP
  • Member

  • 3,403 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 05 December 2011 - 16:30

...Indeed in John Tipler's book "The Lotus and Caterham Seven" it makes reference to the fact that the Dagenham factory is merely an assembly hall. All the manufacturing takes place at specialists and is brought in.

I didn't actually know that. It does explain why they don't have the responsiveness to fix basic quality errors.

#142 Red17

Red17
  • Member

  • 3,390 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 05 December 2011 - 17:36

And if he leaves the iconic 7 alone, which he must, that will always drag down the brand as a whole, because it's primitive whereas his new car is supposed to be F1.

And how exactly is your personal opinion on the 7 relevant to Caterham's effort in 2012? Are they entering a 7?

#143 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 05 December 2011 - 18:00

And how exactly is your personal opinion on the 7 relevant to Caterham's effort in 2012? Are they entering a 7?

I queried the choice of Caterham name for the team and Tony's vision for its synergy with the road cars, that it is obviously bound up with, and ever since people have been arguing. Including you ISTR.

I suppose because after the staffing, that we've discussed, there's not enough know about the F1 car to discuss it yet. Why not go and start a conversation you want to participate in...

#144 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 05 December 2011 - 18:02

...Indeed in John Tipler's book "The Lotus and Caterham Seven" it makes reference to the fact that the Dagenham factory is merely an assembly hall. All the manufacturing takes place at specialists and is brought in.

Ah OK, interesting.

What's an assembly hall worth, then? It still looks like an emotional decision tbh.

#145 jals99

jals99
  • Member

  • 778 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 05 December 2011 - 19:06

Interesting... No mention of having a seat fitting...

All drivers and drivers go to factory many times through the year, nothing very unusual here

#146 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 11,663 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 05 December 2011 - 19:47

Unfortunately quite a few ignoramuses think Caterham is a kit car, but I guess they'll learn eventually.

From the Caterham website:

Caterham 7 Range
Starter Kits


Starter Kits - Build it your way!

As well as the popular Complete Kits (CKD) and Fully Built vehicles, Caterham can supply components to build a 7 in ‘Starter Kit’ form.

The Starter Kit route is designed for the enthusiast who either already owns components they wish to include in the vehicle (typically an engine or gearbox), wishes to purchase a Seven kit over an extended period of time or requires a non-standard specification.

The Starter Kit itself comprises a fully paneled Seven chassis with factory fitted brake lines, loom, instruments, fuel tank, seat belt mountings and other safety equipment. Unlike rival ‘starter kits’ the chassis is delivered complete and requires no cutting, welding, riveting or specialist finishing. What you receive is exactly the same as the legendary chassis that our expert kit builders receive on the factory production line to build customer cars.

When purchasing a Starter Kit the customer can add modular packs to the order to complete the rest of the car to their own specification. After delivery the customer is free to order additional packs as required or purchase individual parts from the Caterham Parts counter.


Check for yourself, ignoramus!

#147 GlenP

GlenP
  • Member

  • 3,403 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 05 December 2011 - 20:01

From the Caterham website:

Caterham 7 Range
Starter Kits


Starter Kits - Build it your way!

As well as the popular Complete Kits (CKD) and Fully Built vehicles, Caterham can supply components to build a 7 in ‘Starter Kit’ form.

The Starter Kit route is designed for the enthusiast who either already owns components they wish to include in the vehicle (typically an engine or gearbox), wishes to purchase a Seven kit over an extended period of time or requires a non-standard specification.

The Starter Kit itself comprises a fully paneled Seven chassis with factory fitted brake lines, loom, instruments, fuel tank, seat belt mountings and other safety equipment. Unlike rival ‘starter kits’ the chassis is delivered complete and requires no cutting, welding, riveting or specialist finishing. What you receive is exactly the same as the legendary chassis that our expert kit builders receive on the factory production line to build customer cars.

When purchasing a Starter Kit the customer can add modular packs to the order to complete the rest of the car to their own specification. After delivery the customer is free to order additional packs as required or purchase individual parts from the Caterham Parts counter.[/i]

Check for yourself, ignoramus!

OK, pedant,They aren't only a kit car.

#148 Red17

Red17
  • Member

  • 3,390 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 05 December 2011 - 20:58

I queried the choice of Caterham name for the team and Tony's vision for its synergy with the road cars, that it is obviously bound up with, and ever since people have been arguing. Including you ISTR.

I suppose because after the staffing, that we've discussed, there's not enough know about the F1 car to discuss it yet. Why not go and start a conversation you want to participate in...

There is plenty to be discussed about the car.
Problem is that such discussions get buried beneath all the Fernandes hatred posting.
Hence I will be avoiding more discussions about Caterham Cars because that is not the topic of this thread.
That you dont like Fernandes and his take on Caterham it's fine, but you diverting the topic from the team as others have done in past threads.

#149 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 05 December 2011 - 21:42

There is plenty to be discussed about the car.
Problem is that such discussions get buried beneath all the Fernandes hatred posting.
Hence I will be avoiding more discussions about Caterham Cars because that is not the topic of this thread.
That you dont like Fernandes and his take on Caterham it's fine, but you diverting the topic from the team as others have done in past threads.

Don't be silly, I like Tony Fernandes and I like 7's and the Caterham F1 team. It's discussing the background of the team. Discussing.

#150 mechadaniel

mechadaniel
  • Member

  • 729 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 06 December 2011 - 02:02

It's discussing the background of the team. Discussing.


Surely if you are going to discuss something you need to spend a bit of time learning about the thing you are discussing? So far all you have done is:

1) Demonstrated that you don't know anything about the future plans of Caterham as you seemed to have thought that the plan was to make F1 special edition 7's instead of a new car
2) Demonstrated that you don't know anything about how Caterham operate, as you seem to think that Caterham is a factory making cars from raw materials
3) Demonstrated that you don't even know where in the world the town Caterham is.


Any despite all that, you seem to desperate to tell the rest of us daily all about your opinions on TF buying Caterham. OK, we get it, you don't think it was an good idea due to your deep knowledge of Caterham and Caterham Group's business plan, and I should sell my Caterham and buy a Honda Civic - so can we move on now?

:lol: