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Caterham F1 - 2012


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#1751 hermaano

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:44

Heikki had a KERS issue and he had to let Vitaly pass.

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#1752 skywing

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:46

Heikki had a KERS issue and he had to let Vitaly pass.

Well that explains it somewhat. He was IIRC 5 seconds ahead of Vitaly in some point.

#1753 levelord

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:51

Vitaly is destroying Heikki's career step by step. Should he win all remaining GP's then Kova will never gets a promotion.

#1754 hermaano

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:08

Vitaly is destroying Heikki's career step by step. Should he win all remaining GP's then Kova will never gets a promotion.


In this race Heikki's pace was a bit faster until he had KERS issues so I would not call this a destroying result for Vitaly. Not bad but still slower until Heikki's technical problems.

#1755 RTH

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:12

For all the good they are doing they might as well be in real Caterhams.

3 years on and the results are just as poor as at the start of 2010 - exasperating.

#1756 CatInTheBag

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:26



The one thing that Petrov could improve is his starts.

As for the team's progress 3 years on and remain as poor. Indeed, and that's why fans are disappointed.

Next race, they'll have the new exhaust and a few updates. This will let us see if there's any light at the end of the tunnel.

Petrov explained about Caterham's lack of progress was due to each and every update brought was good in the wind tunnel but poor on the track.

So we'd like to see if next week will be any different. If not, 2013 will be another long season.

#1757 CatInTheBag

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:32

Vitaly is destroying Heikki's career step by step. Should he win all remaining GP's then Kova will never gets a promotion.



Won't go to that extent. But the team may probably play a part in affecting Heikki's career as well, for failing to secure 10th in WCC.

As they may have to go for the money.



#1758 levelord

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:36

In this race Heikki's pace was a bit faster until he had KERS issues so I would not call this a destroying result for Vitaly. Not bad but still slower until Heikki's technical problems.

It's becoming a bit of common that almost every other race when PET is ahead of KOV he explains his failure due to some mystical mechanical problems. This time it was KERS. It's kinda he has a list of possible parts that probably can stop working and all he has to do is to name them in case of loosing another GP :)
All above is imho but seems that way.

p.s. Doesn't look like KERS had failed.
Vitaly Petrov
Fastest lap: 1.31.163 (lap 58)
Heikki Kovalainen
Fastest lap: 1.30.786 (lap 57)

Edited by levelord, 28 October 2012 - 12:41.


#1759 Rentta

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:44

Well that explains it somewhat. He was IIRC 5 seconds ahead of Vitaly in some point.



It's becoming a bit of common that almost every other race when PET is ahead of KOV he explains his failure due to some mystical mechanical problems. This time it was KERS. It's kinda he has a list of possible parts that probably can stop working and all he has to do is to name them in case of loosing another GP :)
All above is imho but seems that way.


He said that in caterhams official report so i don't think so.

http://caterhamf1.co...dian-grand-prix

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#1760 alexSun

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 18:31

KERS was failed, but short time. Also Vitaly defended long way from a bunch of Toro Rosso & Williams, tires are worn out faster because of this I think the best lap in Heikki better than Vitaly. Yes, and Heikki's KERS clearly does not work well only a small certain period.

#1761 TudorMiron

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 18:41

Great job by Vitaly - I would love to see him find a place on the grid for 2013. I would never say that he's of caliber of Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel but remember this guy never even race in go carts. He started racing Lada's when most of the guys on the grid where winning in F3 ranks. Guy is clearly keeping the good progress slope (which is somewhat explainable as he's still learning many things he missed when he was a kid)

Edited by TudorMiron, 28 October 2012 - 20:52.


#1762 Sanman59

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 12:53

At every race it looks more likely that Kovalainen will be left out of F1.



Sky was suggesting yesterday that Bruno Senna may take his place. Brings lots of Money!

:eek:

#1763 encircled

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 12:55

Sky was suggesting yesterday that Bruno Senna may take his place. Brings lots of Money!

:eek:

Wow, so Senna and Petrov are teammates again if that happens.

#1764 CatInTheBag

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 13:22


Rather puzzling if true. Williams need the money as much as Caterham. Why would Senna want to come here.

My prediction would either be Pic & Heikki or Pic & GvdG.


#1765 skywing

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 13:29

Rather puzzling if true. Williams need the money as much as Caterham. Why would Senna want to come here.

The problem for Senna is that Bottas is very likely to take his place at Williams.

#1766 Ikory

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 17:58

Well-well done by Petrov ;-)

I consider Vitaly will progress further and further. It we have the same picture in last races, Toni will be a crazy man to sigh Heikki and another pay driver.

#1767 Vesuvius

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 20:00

KERS was failed, but short time. Also Vitaly defended long way from a bunch of Toro Rosso & Williams, tires are worn out faster because of this I think the best lap in Heikki better than Vitaly. Yes, and Heikki's KERS clearly does not work well only a small certain period.

Heikki's kers didnt work the final 1/3 part of the race so he had to let Vitaly pass. Kers in india track is about 0,5 second/lap.

Edited by Vesuvius, 29 October 2012 - 20:00.


#1768 alexSun

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:57

Heikki's kers didnt work the final 1/3 part of the race so he had to let Vitaly pass. Kers in india track is about 0,5 second/lap.

No. KERS obviously started working after a reboot. If you are researching time of the sectors where influenced by KERS (about 3 laps - no more!!!, then perhaps unfortunate Heikki missed under the blue flag, then he passed at a normal pace!-not including gaps by blue flags).
So the obvious facts that KERS after a failure worked fine:
1. –°orrect (correlates) times of passing the sectors! (as if there were no interference from cars overtaking on the one lap).
2. Fastest lap is better then make Vitaly, which is a priori not possible with a faulty KERS.
In an interview from Heikki an element of guile. This is normal.

Edited by alexSun, 30 October 2012 - 06:26.


#1769 CatInTheBag

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 10:07

Here's a bit of good news for a change.

http://www.challenge...tml?xtor=RSS-17

Caterham is negotiating to buy into Renault Sport, and could launch their first joint venture model in 2015. Renault and Caterham continues to foster good relationship with each other.

While Proton partners Honda.
http://cars.uk.msn.c...-honda#scpshrtu

Edited by CatInTheBag, 30 October 2012 - 10:09.


#1770 hippie

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 10:09

No. KERS obviously started working after a reboot. If you are researching time of the sectors where influenced by KERS (about 3 laps - no more!!!, then perhaps unfortunate Heikki missed under the blue flag, then he passed at a normal pace!-not including gaps by blue flags).
So the obvious facts that KERS after a failure worked fine:
1. –°orrect (correlates) times of passing the sectors! (as if there were no interference from cars overtaking on the one lap).
2. Fastest lap is better then make Vitaly, which is a priori not possible with a faulty KERS.
In an interview from Heikki an element of guile. This is normal.

The best sector times clearly indicate that Heikki's KERS did not work at the end of the race. In India drivers could use KERS most effectively in the first sector, which has long straights. If you look at the best sector times for Heikki and Vitaly, you can see that Vitaly's best time for the first sector is 4 tenths faster than Heikki's. That's more or less what you'd expect to see if Vitaly had a fully working KERS and Heikki didn't.

Heikki's lap times improved a bit after he had adjusted the break balance, which changed when he lost KERS. In the best sector times Heikki actually had better times than Vitaly in the second and third sector, where you don't normally need KERS. Of course, the fact that Heikki's best lap time was 4 tenths quicker than Vitaly's even without KERS shows that on that particular lap Heikki managed to keep good pace through all the three sectors, while Vitaly's best sector times didn't all come together on the same lap.

Suggesting that it is normal for Heikki to lie in his race comments is a pretty rude thing to say. :down:


#1771 skywing

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 10:16

The best sector times clearly indicate that Heikki's KERS did not work at the end of the race. In India drivers could use KERS most effectively in the first sector, which has long straights. If you look at the best sector times for Heikki and Vitaly, you can see that Vitaly's best time for the first sector is 4 tenths faster than Heikki's. That's more or less what you'd expect to see if Vitaly had a fully working KERS and Heikki didn't.

Heikki's lap times improved a bit after he had adjusted the break balance, which changed when he lost KERS. In the best sector times Heikki actually had better times than Vitaly in the second and third sector, where you don't normally need KERS. Of course, the fact that Heikki's best lap time was 4 tenths quicker than Vitaly's even without KERS shows that on that particular lap Heikki managed to keep good pace through all the three sectors, while Vitaly's best sector times didn't all come together on the same lap.

Suggesting that it is normal for Heikki to lie in his race comments is a pretty rude thing to say. :down:

:up: The qualy obviously goes to Vitaly but in the race they were quite even.

#1772 sesku

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 11:40

Here's a bit of good news for a change.

http://www.challenge...tml?xtor=RSS-17

Caterham is negotiating to buy into Renault Sport, and could launch their first joint venture model in 2015. Renault and Caterham continues to foster good relationship with each other.

While Proton partners Honda.
http://cars.uk.msn.c...-honda#scpshrtu

Why Proton collaboration with Honda is a good news for Caterham?

#1773 alexSun

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 12:05

The best sector times clearly indicate that Heikki's KERS did not work at the end of the race. In India drivers could use KERS most effectively in the first sector, which has long straights. If you look at the best sector times for Heikki and Vitaly, you can see that Vitaly's best time for the first sector is 4 tenths faster than Heikki's. That's more or less what you'd expect to see if Vitaly had a fully working KERS and Heikki didn't.

Heikki's lap times improved a bit after he had adjusted the break balance, which changed when he lost KERS. In the best sector times Heikki actually had better times than Vitaly in the second and third sector, where you don't normally need KERS. Of course, the fact that Heikki's best lap time was 4 tenths quicker than Vitaly's even without KERS shows that on that particular lap Heikki managed to keep good pace through all the three sectors, while Vitaly's best sector times didn't all come together on the same lap.

Suggesting that it is normal for Heikki to lie in his race comments is a pretty rude thing to say. :down:

1. You are not properly understood phrase 'normal'. Normal not for Heikki - highly respect him. Normal - for F1!!! Sorry if incorrectly expressed.

2. But let's still look at the facts! Third distance - to say the least it wrong! If it did not really work KERS third race, in principle, it would be impossible to show such a result!
Now I am your own words to explain - what you're wrong!!!
You say that KERS used on the first sector! As a result - Yes on about 3 Laps Heikki was not fast on it's (when KERS was fail - short time - not 1/3 race!!!!! Look at timming! it's obvious!), - then all were very fine on this and all sector (We will not consider those areas where it is overtaken by faster cars). So as the result Vitaly in Summary had more better time on the 2-second!!! sector. Please look at timming and SUM times of second sectors!!!! - Where don't used KERS - it's the most piloting sector!!!

Great respect for both pilots! I understand that there is no truth in the world. But I think that this is wrong - disparage the dignity of one pilot because of exaggerated problemma another. They're both in this situation perfectly done their job!

#1774 hippie

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 13:11

1. You are not properly understood phrase 'normal'. Normal not for Heikki - highly respect him. Normal - for F1!!! Sorry if incorrectly expressed.

OK. No harm done. :)

2. But let's still look at the facts! Third distance - to say the least it wrong! If it did not really work KERS third race, in principle, it would be impossible to show such a result!
Now I am your own words to explain - what you're wrong!!!
You say that KERS used on the first sector! As a result - Yes on about 3 Laps Heikki was not fast on it's (when KERS was fail - short time - not 1/3 race!!!!! Look at timming! it's obvious!), - then all were very fine on this and all sector (We will not consider those areas where it is overtaken by faster cars). So as the result Vitaly in Summary had more better time on the 2-second!!! sector. Please look at timming and SUM times of second sectors!!!! - Where don't used KERS - it's the most piloting sector!!!

Great respect for both pilots! I understand that there is no truth in the world. But I think that this is wrong - disparage the dignity of one pilot because of exaggerated problemma another. They're both in this situation perfectly done their job!

As I said, losing KERS does not only affect the speed on long straights, where the KERS is normally used (1st sector of each lap), but it also affects the twisty parts of the lap (2nd and 3rd sector) because the car's break balance changes when KERS fails. But Heikki could adjust the break balance of his car from the cockpit (a reference to this adjustment can be found in the team radio reports). After changing the break balance, the behaviour of the car improved, and Heikki could pull decent lap times even though his KERS did not work.

The lap times are actually not a very good reference in this case. A couple of faster cars that had problems during the race followed close behind Vitaly's car, and Heikki was a sitting duck to these cars that could use both DRS and KERS. That's why Heikki's lap times dropped so dramatically after Vitaly had overtook him -- the KERS failure of course slowed Heikki down and allowed Vitaly to pass him, but the other passing cars and blue flags played a much bigger part in the lap times going up and down.

#1775 CatInTheBag

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 14:07

Why Proton collaboration with Honda is a good news for Caterham?



Just additional info at the other end, considering we had a bit of history with them.

#1776 alexSun

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 17:25

Hippie, i and understand your position. We can argue for a long time. It is useless.
I know one thing KERS - it's a very difficult thing, in terms of balance. Especially RBR KERS generally still the present :) Marussia are will still very suffer with it's when they will install it's himself in the next year to figure it out.
And repeat once again: I personally have great respect for both of these pilots! They're both in this situation and generally always - perfectly done their job!

Edited by alexSun, 31 October 2012 - 03:26.


#1777 CatInTheBag

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 19:24

Here's some info about Caterham's major updates for Abu Dhabi according to scarbsf1;

"Caterham aiming for 3-4ths gain with their Abu Dhabi aero package, including new: exhausts\sidepods, diffuser, brake ducts and front wing"

Its a substantial package update but kept in a low-key manner by the Caterham team. I guess they don't want to get our hopes and expectations up too high. But I'm sure
they are quiety confident about the progress.

Its good to see them go all the way to the end of the season. If the updates go well, it will make us all very happy.

Edited by CatInTheBag, 30 October 2012 - 19:34.


#1778 packapoo

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:54

Ahh well..........I guess Caterham deserve some apologists.........tho' I'm not quite sure why exactly.

Maybe a poll to decide who're the best talkers as opposed to the best doers?

#1779 CatInTheBag

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 09:23



Rather surprising for Caterham to expect so little from such a huge update. 3 to 4ths is very very conservative.

A good front wing upgrade alone will give as much as 0.5s. Plus they will adopt an improved downwash exhaust/diffuser which is believed to have a more positive effect.

I won't be surprised if everything fall into place, we can expect at the least a 0.5 improvement.

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#1780 hippie

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:15

Rather surprising for Caterham to expect so little from such a huge update. 3 to 4ths is very very conservative.

A good front wing upgrade alone will give as much as 0.5s. Plus they will adopt an improved downwash exhaust/diffuser which is believed to have a more positive effect.

I won't be surprised if everything fall into place, we can expect at the least a 0.5 improvement.

What Caterham actually said was this:

Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Updates

Continuing the development of the CT01, which has further updates planned for each of the remaining 2012 races, Caterham F1 Team will launch a number of technical updates at the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix. The package for the Yas Marina Circuit is the most significant update for a number of races from which the team is aiming to find around three to four tenths of second in laptime. Among these will be a revised exhaust layout incorporated within new rear bodywork, new front brake duct assemblies and detail updates to the floor, diffuser and front wing.

Notice the "detail updates" bit, which probably means the updates are quite small.

Caterham has spent several months in this season developing the revised exhaust layout, but so far they haven't really got much performance from it. So let's hope it works better this time.

#1781 TFLB

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:40

Ahh well..........I guess Caterham deserve some apologists.........tho' I'm not quite sure why exactly.

Maybe a poll to decide who're the best talkers as opposed to the best doers?

I remember at the start of last season Gascoigne said that their car 'looked like a front-running car in every way'. Caterham are all bark and no bite.

#1782 CatInTheBag

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:55

I know what you are trying to say, hippie. But we cannot discount this "package for the Yas Marina Circuit is the most significant update for a number of races ..." statement.

We can scrutinize the little words like detail updates and so on, but with so many improvements like the front wing, brake ducts, floor, diffuser, and most of all, the new exhaust (revised), I expect more.

Its hard to quantify what Caterham can get out of the updates, but if the detail updates can make up the lack of progress from the "supposed " upgrades earlier, in other words, make the components work together, then it will
be an entirely different scenario.

Don't wory, I am already expecting the worst but will also hope for the best.

The lack of progress of course disappoints me a lot. But nothing compares to the boastful nature, charlatan ways of the team, denial by some, which had since been significantly toned down in the last couple of races. I am glad they
recognize it.

Edited by CatInTheBag, 31 October 2012 - 11:18.


#1783 onewingedangel

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:56

Half a second is not enough to challenge for points, or short of a spate of retirements jump Marussia. Have to wonder if it's worth diverting resources from next years car, even if there is some carry over.

#1784 dau

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:13

I remember at the start of last season Gascoigne said that their car 'looked like a front-running car in every way'. Caterham are all bark and no bite.

He didn't mean that they expected to be front runners, he just compared the T128 to its rather crude predecessor.

#1785 mechadaniel

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:16

Half a second is not enough to challenge for points, or short of a spate of retirements jump Marussia. Have to wonder if it's worth diverting resources from next years car, even if there is some carry over.


Probably a lot of carry over:)


#1786 TFLB

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:12

He didn't mean that they expected to be front runners, he just compared the T128 to its rather crude predecessor.

But it was still a silly thing to say. They've also promised points finishes in the past, and that they'd threaten the midfield. Have any of these things happened? No. It's a joke of a team with an incomprehensibly large number of fans.

#1787 F1ultimate

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:19

But it was still a silly thing to say. They've also promised points finishes in the past, and that they'd threaten the midfield. Have any of these things happened? No. It's a joke of a team with an incomprehensibly large number of fans.


Thank god planetf1 and f1 fanatic have stopped posting Mike G's hype about the team being on the brink of breaking into the mid-field pack. There has been no sign of that what so ever. Caterham remains in no-mans land ahead of the laggard but lagging behind the mid-field.

#1788 CatInTheBag

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:40

Half a second is not enough to challenge for points, or short of a spate of retirements jump Marussia. Have to wonder if it's worth diverting resources from next years car, even if there is some carry over.



No, of course not. More than the numbers, it will at least give the fans some faint ideas of what to expect for 2013,

Do they know what's the real problem? Do they have the solutions? Have they managed to align the wind tunnel data with on track performance? Have they understood the tires better? Can our guys like
Mark Smith and John Iley steer the team to success? Can we score points next year? And so on ...

#1789 CatInTheBag

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 14:29



P19. Petrov 1.45.245
P20. Heikki 1.45.782


Both drivers complain of braking instability. :yawnface:


#1790 dau

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 15:22

But it was still a silly thing to say. They've also promised points finishes in the past, and that they'd threaten the midfield. Have any of these things happened? No. It's a joke of a team with an incomprehensibly large number of fans.

As far as i remember, they aimed for points and hoped to threaten the midfield. Not promise to. I'd call that ambition. It's not like they're the only team on the grid who couldn't fulfill their and everyone's expectations. I mean, if that's enough for you to call a team "a joke", who is left to support?

#1791 Petroltorque

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 16:11

I think the resolve/ability of Caterham will be put into stark relief by the loss of tenth spot. I think Fernandes figured that they were guaranteed tenth spot just by turning up. I see them them in a dog fight with Marussia next year. I would bet that they ( Marussia) will make a better fist of KERS integration.

#1792 tarmac

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 16:40

Kovalainen: Car slower on new updates. New exhaust less grip

#1793 CatInTheBag

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 16:47

Kovalainen: Car slower on new updates. New exhaust less grip



:lol: I hope its not a joke. Their official report sounded so much nicer, so beautiful.




#1794 TFLB

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 17:27

As far as i remember, they aimed for points and hoped to threaten the midfield. Not promise to. I'd call that ambition. It's not like they're the only team on the grid who couldn't fulfill their and everyone's expectations. I mean, if that's enough for you to call a team "a joke", who is left to support?

No team has been so wildly optimistic with its statements over the last few years. Also I don't like Fernandes and the way he handled the Lotus case.

#1795 CatInTheBag

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 17:43


I wouldn't call their target as overly optimistic, score a point and close the gap to midfield is hardly super ambitious for a 3rd yr team. How many times have we heard them saying, no more excuses.

For me, its simple. They have not met any of the goals set by themselves. End of story. As for Tony, :lol:



#1796 dau

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 17:57

No team has been so wildly optimistic with its statements over the last few years.

Really? Merc was talking about fighting for championships in every year since 2010. Marussia was "targeting the established teams", when they were still called Virgin. There's probably much more of this stuff, but i'm too lazy to dig through all the pre-season headlines.

Also I don't like Fernandes and the way he handled the Lotus case.

Ah, now we're talking. Well, fair enough.

#1797 CatInTheBag

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 19:36


Tomorrow will Caterham use back the old package ?

#1798 hippie

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 20:47

Tomorrow will Caterham use back the old package ?

So it seems. That's, at least, what Heikki told MTV3.

Tony Fernandes said in a recent interview that there's a second per lap to gain from the exhaust system, and so far Caterham has "only got 10 percent of that". So that's one tenth of a second. And they've developed the exhaust system throughout the season. This is very disappointing. ):


#1799 Red17

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 21:59

The problem is the same as last year, they are still in the dark in it comes to using the wind tunnel. Petrov has only confirmed what I think must of us suspected for some time.

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#1800 CatInTheBag

CatInTheBag
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  • 322 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 03 November 2012 - 05:36

So it seems. That's, at least, what Heikki told MTV3.

Tony Fernandes said in a recent interview that there's a second per lap to gain from the exhaust system, and so far Caterham has "only got 10 percent of that". So that's one tenth of a second. And they've developed the exhaust system throughout the season. This is very disappointing. ):



You are an info wiki for Caterham F1. :up: :D

So back to square one. Though not sure if they just dump the exhaust and use the new front wing, floor, brake, etc - just to try it out and see what happens in FP3 and raceday. There's nothing to lose.