What should an F1 car look like?
#51
Posted 01 December 2011 - 17:56
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#52
Posted 02 December 2011 - 12:29
#53
Posted 02 December 2011 - 16:39
I keep asking her to make them but she isn't sure what it should look like.
The things she makes are incredibly detailed and, according to her, people get really fussy if she get the details wrong...
She doesn't know anything about F1 and has no idea which car she should use as a model.
I told her to go with an iconic car.
I car that everybody will immediately recognize. Motorsports fan or not.
Any ideas?
Edited by sonar, 02 December 2011 - 17:32.
#54
Posted 02 December 2011 - 16:44
Ferrari 156 SharknoseMy friend Ingrid makes charms out of pewter and she has more than 150 different kinds but still no F1 cars.
I keep asking her to make them but she isn't sure what it should look like.
The things she makes are incredibly detailed and, according to her, people get really fussy if she get the details wrong...
She doesn't know anything about F1 and has no idea which car she should use as a model.
I told her to go with an iconic car.
I car that every motorsports fan will immediately recognize.
Any ideas?
#55
Posted 02 December 2011 - 16:48
And if you cut and paste this number into e-bay UK, you might get a surprise: 370518842793
#56
Posted 03 December 2011 - 11:01
My friend Ingrid makes charms out of pewter and she has more than 150 different kinds but still no F1 cars.
I keep asking her to make them but she isn't sure what it should look like.
The things she makes are incredibly detailed and, according to her, people get really fussy if she get the details wrong...
She doesn't know anything about F1 and has no idea which car she should use as a model.
I told her to go with an iconic car.
I car that everybody will immediately recognize. Motorsports fan or not.
Any ideas?
Maserati 250F
Cooper-Climax T51
Lotus-Climax 33
#57
Posted 03 December 2011 - 12:22
I'd say:
I wondered how long it would be before the 191 appeared in this thread!
If we accept the premise that we can't uninvent modern aerodynamics and sponsorship, then yes, in terms of appearance, the Jordan 191 has to be pretty much the peak of the 'modern-era' cars- from the first time I saw it, I always thought it was one of the prettiest F1 cars I'd seen for years
Edited by Kevan, 03 December 2011 - 12:22.
#59
Posted 04 December 2011 - 11:06
Elansprint, could you elaborate on that?An Austin Healey 100 won a Grand Prix. Really.
BTW, the '57 Australian Grand Prix, the result of which was disputed by Davison & Jones, had a concurrent handicap race which was won by Noel Aldous in an AH 100. But of course, Australian GPs were Formula Libre then.
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#60
Posted 04 December 2011 - 11:43
Lotus 79 agreed, Dan. Not sure I go along with you on the 782 http://www.racing70s...eat/Aycliff.jpgLotus 79, or March 782. Both classics
#61
Posted 04 December 2011 - 12:10
PAR
#63
Posted 04 March 2022 - 12:37
I have a question for Historians: is the Mercedes W196 the only Formula 1 car ever to have fully covered wheels?
I know that there were several cars with nearly-covered wheels, with front fairings and lateral petrol tanks like the Lancia-Ferrari D50, some Talbots and Maseratis, but has there ever been another F1 car with continuous metal above the wheels? I don't remember any other.
Gentlemen, the floor is yours.
#64
Posted 04 March 2022 - 13:10
#65
Posted 04 March 2022 - 13:18
Does the converted Porsche sports car that Carel Godin de Beaufort ran at the 1958 and 1959 Dutch GPs count? I know a Porsche RSK wasn't designed as an F1 car, but was it run outside the regulations as a favour from the promoters, or were the regulations light enough that you could turn one into the other with modifications to seats, headlights and so on?
(I've just checked the photo, clearly no one was that bothered about the headlights)
#66
Posted 04 March 2022 - 13:31
The rulebook in the fifties was pretty thin. Basically, everything with an engine of less than 2500 cc qualified as an F1 car, meaning a Volkswagen Beetle or a Morris Minor.
#67
Posted 04 March 2022 - 13:50
c1914 Mercedes GP winning car
Mid 20's Indy Miller 91. Pity that a Miller had very few appearances in Europe, but it was enough to have influenced subsequent designs from Bugatti
1939 Mercedes W165- Tripoli winner
1956 Vanwall
1965 BRM P261
1966 BRM P83
1967 Eagle
1968 Ferrari
1975 Ferrari 312T
1978 Lotus 79
After 1978-79 cars began to look generic due to ground effects side pods, then high nose/narrow driver box and wide rear.
Edited by rl1856, 04 March 2022 - 13:52.
#68
Posted 04 March 2022 - 14:03
Connaught made a car with a fully enveloping body in the 50s, but I’m not sure if it actually raced?
1957 British GP and also at Syracuse the same year.
#69
Posted 04 March 2022 - 14:22
The rulebook in the fifties was pretty thin. Basically, everything with an engine of less than 2500 cc qualified as an F1 car, meaning a Volkswagen Beetle or a Morris Minor.
Cough, "minimum engine size rule" which has been discussed inconclusively elsewhere on TNF.
#70
Posted 04 March 2022 - 15:16
more simple:
Photo by Sutton Images
It’s funny, as i was translating Migeot’s mathematically expressed directions for the 018 into sections and surfaces I thought this is going to be the ugliest car ever. How wrong I was.
#71
Posted 04 March 2022 - 15:46
It’s funny, as i was translating Migeot’s mathematically expressed directions for the 018 into sections and surfaces I thought this is going to be the ugliest car ever. How wrong I was.
How many "objects" like the front wing (and elements) and back wings exist in the design?
#72
Posted 04 March 2022 - 16:19
Edited by Nigel Beresford, 04 March 2022 - 16:23.
#73
Posted 04 March 2022 - 16:58
Carry on yakking, Nigel.
I was trying to reduce the number of aero elements to a minimum. How many flaps and winglets?
Elements of the design were in Excel spreadsheets?
#74
Posted 04 March 2022 - 18:15
The sections of the rear wing elements were common, but scaled up and down according to application. For example we had about 4 specs of rear wing. X23 (IIRC), Y30, Z30 and Z38. The X, Y, Z described the wing geometry (the proportions and arrangements of the elements) and the number was a measurable chord length from leading edge of the mainplane to the trailing edge of the flap. So the Z30 and Z38 were the same section and arrangement, but everything was scaled up by 38:30 on the bigger wing. Y30 shared main plane and turning vane with Z30 but had a smaller flap. X23 was Hockenheim & Monza, and Z38 was Hungary & Jerez. It was all beautifully logical. JCM was fantastic to work with.
Edited by Nigel Beresford, 04 March 2022 - 18:18.
#75
Posted 04 March 2022 - 18:21
Excel?
#76
Posted 04 March 2022 - 19:11
Edited by Nigel Beresford, 04 March 2022 - 19:16.
#77
Posted 04 March 2022 - 19:23
A few more to keep the ball rolling:I have a question for Historians: is the Mercedes W196 the only Formula 1 car ever to have fully covered wheels?
I know that there were several cars with nearly-covered wheels, with front fairings and lateral petrol tanks like the Lancia-Ferrari D50, some Talbots and Maseratis, but has there ever been another F1 car with continuous metal above the wheels? I don't remember any other.
Bugatti T32 - French GP 1923
Mercedes-Benz and Auto Union - Avusrennen 1937 (Formule Libre)
Maserati 4CL - Tripoli GP 1939
Connaught (as previously mentioned)
Cooper-Bristol T40 - British GP 1955
Vanwall VW6 - Reims GP 1957 (practice only)
#78
Posted 04 March 2022 - 19:45
The definition of the geometry was developed in Excel e.g. at x station -300 the radius of the top of the nose was to be 200, so that is what I drew using the CAD system (Easidraw - the package introduced to Tyrrell during the Data General sponsorship time). These requirements could be expressed in a tabular form quite easily.
My Excel Question Mental Explosion was about Excel. I wouldn't believe that you did maths that way but you did it that way!
I tried to analyse an active front end suspension in Excel but my brain flopped.
#79
Posted 04 March 2022 - 22:49
A few more to keep the ball rolling:
Bugatti T32 - French GP 1923
Mercedes-Benz and Auto Union - Avusrennen 1937 (Formule Libre)
Maserati 4CL - Tripoli GP 1939
Connaught (as previously mentioned)
Cooper-Bristol T40 - British GP 1955
Vanwall VW6 - Reims GP 1957 (practice only)
Ok, but prewar cars were not Formula 1. I was referring specifically to the postwar regulations.
All in all, there haven't been many. Ironically, there were the Connaught and the Bristol at the 1955 British GP, but Mercedes run that day the open wheeler version of the W196 (and they finished 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th )
Thing is, if the Mercedes W196 was so hugely successful, why the covered wheels were not copied more often? Granted, the car itself was good not only because of the aero bodyshell, it was also good in open wheel form and sure they had the best drivers, but still...
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#80
Posted 04 March 2022 - 23:17
Cough, "minimum engine size rule" which has been discussed inconclusively elsewhere on TNF.
No such thing in the fifties.
#81
Posted 05 March 2022 - 01:41
Originally posted by DeKnyff
.....if the Mercedes W196 was so hugely successful, why the covered wheels were not copied more often? Granted, the car itself was good not only because of the aero bodyshell, it was also good in open wheel form and sure they had the best drivers, but still...
Likely because they were such a failure at subsequent events...
I think it was only at Monza they were pulled out of mothballs again.
#82
Posted 05 March 2022 - 12:41
The W196 streamliners were also used in the Formule Libre race at the AVUS and would probably have been used again at Reims if the 1955 French Grand Prix had taken place. It is certainly true that the open wheelers were used much more, perhaps because the circuits were, in general, slower than they had expected.
I think the W196 was designed for the streamlined bodywork with a very wide chassis which compromised the open wheeler. The bodywork itself seemed to be the product of a committee consisting of mechanical engineers (plenty holes to let air in and out), marketeers and aerodynamicists, the last of those being some way down the pecking order. In contrast, the open wheeler bodywork didn't seem to have been designed at all, just wrapped as tightly as possible around the mechanism.
In comparison, the streamlined Connaught looks a lot smoother. When Connaught abandoned the streamliners, the open wheeler was neat and compact by the standards of the time.