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What should an F1 car look like?


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#51 Michael Ferner

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 17:56

Born in 1967, I have always liked racing cars from a very young age, and 1967 itself was indeed a particularly good year (as several posters have already remarked). Earlier cars are still an acquired taste for me, though some were pretty in their time, but for me a real racing car is rear-engined, before anything else. I don't mind sponsorship or simple wings & slicks, but Formula 1 lost me in the mid-nineties: small rear tyres, barge boards, grooved tyres, narrow tread etc. etc. etc. There's so much wrong with today's cars that I wouldn't even know where to begin with... :(

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#52 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 12:29

Take a look at Post 2664 of the 'Introduce Yourself' Topic for the definitive answer!. :up: :up: :cool:

#53 sonar

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 16:39

My friend Ingrid makes charms out of pewter and she has more than 150 different kinds but still no F1 cars.
I keep asking her to make them but she isn't sure what it should look like.
The things she makes are incredibly detailed and, according to her, people get really fussy if she get the details wrong...
She doesn't know anything about F1 and has no idea which car she should use as a model.
I told her to go with an iconic car.
I car that everybody will immediately recognize. Motorsports fan or not.

Any ideas?

Edited by sonar, 02 December 2011 - 17:32.


#54 Amphicar

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 16:44

My friend Ingrid makes charms out of pewter and she has more than 150 different kinds but still no F1 cars.
I keep asking her to make them but she isn't sure what it should look like.
The things she makes are incredibly detailed and, according to her, people get really fussy if she get the details wrong...
She doesn't know anything about F1 and has no idea which car she should use as a model.
I told her to go with an iconic car.
I car that every motorsports fan will immediately recognize.

Any ideas?

Ferrari 156 Sharknose

#55 elansprint72

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 16:48

An Austin Healey 100 won a Grand Prix. Really.

And if you cut and paste this number into e-bay UK, you might get a surprise: 370518842793


:drunk:

#56 Stephen W

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 11:01

My friend Ingrid makes charms out of pewter and she has more than 150 different kinds but still no F1 cars.
I keep asking her to make them but she isn't sure what it should look like.
The things she makes are incredibly detailed and, according to her, people get really fussy if she get the details wrong...
She doesn't know anything about F1 and has no idea which car she should use as a model.
I told her to go with an iconic car.
I car that everybody will immediately recognize. Motorsports fan or not.

Any ideas?


Maserati 250F

Cooper-Climax T51

Lotus-Climax 33



#57 Kevan

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 12:22

I'd say:

Posted Image


I wondered how long it would be before the 191 appeared in this thread!

If we accept the premise that we can't uninvent modern aerodynamics and sponsorship, then yes, in terms of appearance, the Jordan 191 has to be pretty much the peak of the 'modern-era' cars- from the first time I saw it, I always thought it was one of the prettiest F1 cars I'd seen for years

Edited by Kevan, 03 December 2011 - 12:22.


#58 Doug Nye

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 22:08

What should an F1 car look like? Well a bunch of these would be quite easy on the eye...

Posted Image

Photo Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

DCN



#59 Repco22

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 11:06

An Austin Healey 100 won a Grand Prix. Really.

Elansprint, could you elaborate on that?
BTW, the '57 Australian Grand Prix, the result of which was disputed by Davison & Jones, had a concurrent handicap race which was won by Noel Aldous in an AH 100. But of course, Australian GPs were Formula Libre then.

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#60 Alan Cox

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 11:43

Lotus 79, or March 782. Both classics

Lotus 79 agreed, Dan. Not sure I go along with you on the 782 http://www.racing70s...eat/Aycliff.jpg

#61 Phil Rainford

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 12:10

"Side on" I always had a soft spot for this :)

Posted Image



PAR

#62 D-Type

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 19:14

What should an F1 car look like? Well a bunch of these would be quite easy on the eye...

Posted Image

Photo Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

DCN

I hadn't appreciated just how sleek that car is. From the usual 3/4 front views it always looks decidedly 'dumpy'

#63 BRG

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Posted 04 March 2022 - 12:37

Resurrecting this thread (with its shockingly topical post above this one) to ask a question raised in the Countdown to Bahrain thread on RCF from De Knyff..

I have a question for Historians: is the Mercedes W196 the only Formula 1 car ever to have fully covered wheels?

I know that there were several cars with nearly-covered wheels, with front fairings and lateral petrol tanks like the Lancia-Ferrari D50, some Talbots and Maseratis, but has there ever been another F1 car with continuous metal above the wheels? I don't remember any other.


Gentlemen, the floor is yours.

#64 dolomite

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Posted 04 March 2022 - 13:10

Connaught made a car with a fully enveloping body in the 50s, but I’m not sure if it actually raced?

#65 Risil

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Posted 04 March 2022 - 13:18

Does the converted Porsche sports car that Carel Godin de Beaufort ran at the 1958 and 1959 Dutch GPs count? I know a Porsche RSK wasn't designed as an F1 car, but was it run outside the regulations as a favour from the promoters, or were the regulations light enough that you could turn one into the other with modifications to seats, headlights and so on?

 

(I've just checked the photo, clearly no one was that bothered about the headlights)



#66 Michael Ferner

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Posted 04 March 2022 - 13:31

The rulebook in the fifties was pretty thin. Basically, everything with an engine of less than 2500 cc qualified as an F1 car, meaning a Volkswagen Beetle or a Morris Minor.



#67 rl1856

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Posted 04 March 2022 - 13:50

c1914 Mercedes GP winning car

Mid 20's Indy Miller 91.    Pity that a Miller had very few appearances in Europe, but it was enough to have influenced subsequent designs from Bugatti

1939 Mercedes W165- Tripoli winner

1956 Vanwall

1965 BRM P261

1966 BRM P83

1967 Eagle

1968 Ferrari

1975 Ferrari 312T

1978 Lotus 79

 

After 1978-79 cars began to look generic due to ground effects side pods, then high nose/narrow driver box and wide rear.


Edited by rl1856, 04 March 2022 - 13:52.


#68 68targa

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Posted 04 March 2022 - 14:03

Connaught made a car with a fully enveloping body in the 50s, but I’m not sure if it actually raced?

 

1957 British GP and also at Syracuse the same year.



#69 Charlieman

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Posted 04 March 2022 - 14:22

The rulebook in the fifties was pretty thin. Basically, everything with an engine of less than 2500 cc qualified as an F1 car, meaning a Volkswagen Beetle or a Morris Minor.

Cough, "minimum engine size rule" which has been discussed inconclusively elsewhere on TNF.



#70 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 04 March 2022 - 15:16

more simple:
89bel_011.jpg
Photo by Sutton Images


It’s funny, as i was translating Migeot’s mathematically expressed directions for the 018 into sections and surfaces I thought this is going to be the ugliest car ever. How wrong I was.

#71 Charlieman

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Posted 04 March 2022 - 15:46

It’s funny, as i was translating Migeot’s mathematically expressed directions for the 018 into sections and surfaces I thought this is going to be the ugliest car ever. How wrong I was.

How many "objects" like the front wing (and elements) and back wings exist in the design?



#72 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 04 March 2022 - 16:19

Not sure I understand the question. It wasn’t drawn in a sold modeller - the 018 was a little too early for that . Basically the chassis and bodywork was drawn in a 2D drafting package as sections at 100 mm stations. The wing sections were drawn as 2d extruded sections. The geometry of each section was defined in Excel by Migeot as, for example, a series of straight lines and arcs whose characteristics (e.g radius and centre) were set by him to grow or change in a controlled manner according to the station where they were along the car.

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 04 March 2022 - 16:23.


#73 Charlieman

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Posted 04 March 2022 - 16:58

Carry on yakking, Nigel.

 

I was trying to reduce the number of aero elements to a minimum. How many flaps and winglets?

 

Elements of the design were in Excel spreadsheets?



#74 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 04 March 2022 - 18:15

Yes. So for example the nose and the front portion of the tub were basically a D cross section laid on its back. JCM knew how wide the nosebox had to be at the front face of the tub, and how long he wanted it to be. To keep things simple the upper surface of the nosebox was semicircular, so it was reasonably easy to set the sections for each end of the nose and linearly interpolate to give the section at whatever station you wanted. The tip of the nose was a simple radius in plan view and a portion of a sphere in side view. Farther back things were obviously more complex, for example the development of the blisters over the trumpets in the engine cover, but it was all calculated in Excel.

The sections of the rear wing elements were common, but scaled up and down according to application. For example we had about 4 specs of rear wing. X23 (IIRC), Y30, Z30 and Z38. The X, Y, Z described the wing geometry (the proportions and arrangements of the elements) and the number was a measurable chord length from leading edge of the mainplane to the trailing edge of the flap. So the Z30 and Z38 were the same section and arrangement, but everything was scaled up by 38:30 on the bigger wing. Y30 shared main plane and turning vane with Z30 but had a smaller flap. X23 was Hockenheim & Monza, and Z38 was Hungary & Jerez. It was all beautifully logical. JCM was fantastic to work with.

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 04 March 2022 - 18:18.


#75 Charlieman

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Posted 04 March 2022 - 18:21

Excel?



#76 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 04 March 2022 - 19:11

The definition of the geometry was developed in Excel e.g. at x station -300 the radius of the top of the nose was to be 200, so that is what I drew using the CAD system (Easidraw - the package introduced to Tyrrell during the Data General sponsorship time). These requirements could be expressed in a tabular form quite easily.

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 04 March 2022 - 19:16.


#77 Tim Murray

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Posted 04 March 2022 - 19:23

I have a question for Historians: is the Mercedes W196 the only Formula 1 car ever to have fully covered wheels?

I know that there were several cars with nearly-covered wheels, with front fairings and lateral petrol tanks like the Lancia-Ferrari D50, some Talbots and Maseratis, but has there ever been another F1 car with continuous metal above the wheels? I don't remember any other.

A few more to keep the ball rolling:

Bugatti T32 - French GP 1923
D34-D1-A34-FC1-B-486-D-B423-29-C25758384

Mercedes-Benz and Auto Union - Avusrennen 1937 (Formule Libre)
22-CAE54-F-4-CCD-4990-B042-CD9-E56-D4-AE

Maserati 4CL - Tripoli GP 1939
AB40-BAE5-4-ACE-4-F94-AC2-A-D38-C3180252

Connaught (as previously mentioned)
B255-C884-2-D9-D-47-F2-A8-CC-163-D676-DE

Cooper-Bristol T40 - British GP 1955
2452-EB3-C-5894-4975-8-EDE-0-EEF45814-C7

Vanwall VW6 - Reims GP 1957 (practice only)
1-E74249-A-3972-4-F07-806-E-33801267-F0-

#78 Charlieman

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Posted 04 March 2022 - 19:45

The definition of the geometry was developed in Excel e.g. at x station -300 the radius of the top of the nose was to be 200, so that is what I drew using the CAD system (Easidraw - the package introduced to Tyrrell during the Data General sponsorship time). These requirements could be expressed in a tabular form quite easily.

My Excel Question Mental Explosion was about Excel. I wouldn't believe that you did maths that way but you did it that way!

 

I tried to analyse an active front end suspension in Excel but my brain flopped. 



#79 DeKnyff

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Posted 04 March 2022 - 22:49

A few more to keep the ball rolling:

Bugatti T32 - French GP 1923


Mercedes-Benz and Auto Union - Avusrennen 1937 (Formule Libre)


Maserati 4CL - Tripoli GP 1939


Connaught (as previously mentioned)


Cooper-Bristol T40 - British GP 1955


Vanwall VW6 - Reims GP 1957 (practice only)

 

Ok, but prewar cars were not Formula 1. I was referring specifically to the postwar regulations.

 

All in all, there haven't been many. Ironically, there were the Connaught and the Bristol at the 1955 British GP, but Mercedes run that day the open wheeler version of the W196 (and they finished 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th  :drunk: )

 

Thing is, if the Mercedes W196 was so hugely successful, why the covered wheels were not copied more often? Granted, the car itself was good not only because of the aero bodyshell, it was also good in open wheel form and sure they had the best drivers, but still...



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#80 Michael Ferner

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Posted 04 March 2022 - 23:17

Cough, "minimum engine size rule" which has been discussed inconclusively elsewhere on TNF.

 

No such thing in the fifties.



#81 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 March 2022 - 01:41

Originally posted by DeKnyff
.....if the Mercedes W196 was so hugely successful, why the covered wheels were not copied more often? Granted, the car itself was good not only because of the aero bodyshell, it was also good in open wheel form and sure they had the best drivers, but still...


Likely because they were such a failure at subsequent events...

I think it was only at Monza they were pulled out of mothballs again.

#82 Roger Clark

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Posted 05 March 2022 - 12:41

The W196 streamliners were also used in the Formule Libre race at the AVUS and would probably have been used again at Reims if the 1955 French Grand Prix had taken place.  It is certainly true that the open wheelers were used much more, perhaps because the circuits were, in general, slower than they had expected.

 

I think the W196 was designed for the streamlined bodywork with a very wide chassis which compromised the open wheeler.  The bodywork itself seemed to be the product of a committee consisting of mechanical engineers (plenty holes to let air in and out), marketeers and aerodynamicists, the last of those being some way down the pecking order.  In contrast, the open wheeler bodywork didn't seem to have been designed at all, just wrapped as tightly as possible around the mechanism.

 

In comparison, the streamlined Connaught looks a lot smoother.  When Connaught abandoned the streamliners, the open wheeler was neat and compact by the standards of the time.