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Moss 1961 250GT SWB


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#1 Mal9444

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 23:26

With the perimission of the sub-forum moderator, I ask the question: what colour were the circular number plates - roundels? - on the Rob Walker-owned Ferrari 250 GT SWB driven to victory by Stirling Moss in the 1961 TT at Goodwood?

On every model of the car that I have seen, the roundels are white, with the number 7 in black.

Both the '61 and the '60 cars (different cars, I believe) are still in existence,and in modern livery both number roundels are white, with black numbers.
Eg. http://www.conceptca...tion_photo.aspx

Yet this model http://www.amalgamco...p;PHPSESSID=15b has recently appeared and shows the roundels as pale blue - and at these prices one might expect absolute accuracy.

Can anyone who was there recall the reality?

And if the reality be blue - how come for so long the reality has been misrepresneted?



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#2 David McKinney

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 00:05

Perimission granted :)

I would be extremely surprised if the roundels were anything other than white - as the RW single-seaters were - unless there was a class differentiation one year

#3 Mal9444

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 06:43

Perimission granted :)

I would be extremely surprised if the roundels were anything other than white - as the RW single-seaters were - unless there was a class differentiation one year


This photograph: http://www.ebay.co.u...1-/350306618049 would appear to support the model maker.

As would this one: http://www.flickr.co...est/3384991057/

How extraordinary that so many models, and indeed restorations of the car itself, should be for so mnay years wrong on such a simple detail. So the question now becomes: why?

Blue to match his overalls, or blue for some other reason?

Edited by Mal9444, 29 November 2011 - 06:51.


#4 Ted Walker

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 08:23

I know that it sometimes ran with Yellow roundels and think it had yellow at the TT.

#5 Roger Clark

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 08:26

Where was the Simon Lewis photo taken?

#6 Alan Cox

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 15:58

If you notice in the ebay photograph, the Parkes car following Moss has yellow roundels. I know that a number of cars in the TT appeared with yellow roundels - was it a class distinction? the Hill '63 winner certainly carried yellow roundels.
This photo, although black and white, shows that they were certainly not white. http://www.stirlingm...-tourist-trophy

#7 Roger Clark

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 16:53

There are colour photographs of Moss in the '61 TT in My Cars, My Career and in Ludvigsen's biography of Moss.

#8 Paul Parker

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 17:32

If you notice in the ebay photograph, the Parkes car following Moss has yellow roundels. I know that a number of cars in the TT appeared with yellow roundels - was it a class distinction? the Hill '63 winner certainly carried yellow roundels.
This photo, although black and white, shows that they were certainly not white. http://www.stirlingm...-tourist-trophy


This is a puzzling subject that I have tried in the past to ascertain the reasons for different roundel colours as noted above, from various sources including Goodwood but nobody seems to know the answer.

In 1960 for instance Salvadori's DB4GT had black numbers directly onto the doors with a thin white halo and in 1962 when he drove the Coombs E type 4 WPD it was black roundels with white numbers. Ditto the Ireland/UDT and Hill/Coombs GTOs but Tommy Sopwith's Equipe Endeavour GTO driven by Parkes had yellow roundels with black numbers this year.

Then in 1963 whilst the Hill/Parkes GTOs wore yellow, the Aston 214s had pale blue roundels and then in 1964 Ginther drove the old Coombs GTO and this too had yellow roundels. It appears to have been a period Goodwood idiosyncrasy but somebody must know the true answer.

For the record Stirling's Walker/Wilkins 250GT had orthodox white roundels/black numbers in 1961, ditto with the earlier SWB in 1960.

#9 Roger Clark

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 18:09

For the record Stirling's Walker/Wilkins 250GT had orthodox white roundels/black numbers in 1961, ditto with the earlier SWB in 1960.

they don't look white in the photos I referred to above.

#10 Alan Cox

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 09:41

they don't look white in the photos I referred to above.

Indeed, if you study the pit photo which I posted from Sir Stirling's website, you will see the (clearly) white noseband, but a different colour of bonnet roundel.

#11 Paul Parker

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 15:09

Indeed, if you study the pit photo which I posted from Sir Stirling's website, you will see the (clearly) white noseband, but a different colour of bonnet roundel.


I attended the 1961 TT and I was certain that the roundels were white but having looked at some b/w images online plus the shot in Karl's Moss biog you are correct, the bonnet roundel is light blue. I'm suitably embarrassed, equally surprised (my memory needs defragging methinks) and apologise for my error.

Meanwhile anybody know why there were white/yellow/black/light blue roundels during the 1960/64 TTs?

#12 bradbury west

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 15:35

I appreciate that this is of no real use in pushing this forward, but ISTR that the reason was explained in an article involving track tests of 4WPD or one of the Project Astons, but cannot find it at present.
Roger Lund

#13 Tim Murray

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 15:56

There's a suggestion in this earlier thread that the different capacity classes had different colour roundels:

Coloured [number] roundels used at the TT - but why?

#14 Paul Parker

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 17:41

There's a suggestion in this earlier thread that the different capacity classes had different colour roundels:

Coloured [number] roundels used at the TT - but why?


As I have previously stated in the 1962 TT the UDT and Coombs GTOs had black roundels/white numbers and the Equipe Endeavour GTO had yellow roundels/black numbers as indeed did the Maranello Concessionaires GTO, these all being cars in the same 'class'.

#15 Mal9444

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 01:18

Perhaps, even though I had his express permission to pose the question here, I should have taken the oft-proferred advice of our sub-forum moderator and exercised my brain a little more before bursting into print. It turned out to be quite easy to answer the original question: all I did was dig out that 1998 David Weguelin video 'Goodwood: the motor racing years' and enjoy some old, contemporary footage. The roundels on the Moss car in 1961 are, without a doubt and unambiguously, pale blue. It is indisputable, notwithstanding the vagaries of period colour processing. Those on the Parkes car (race number 1) are no less unmistakably white, although there is indeed one shot where they might be mistaken for yellow: so class distinction appears not to be the reason for the move from what I always understood to beb RAC regulation black-on-white or white-on-black. A Porsche clearly has yellow roundels with black numbers - but another Porsche - shot but fleetingly - seems to have white roundels.

In short, there appears no rhyme nor reason.

It was the Sixties, after all...

#16 Doug Nye

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 22:59

Posted Image

You can tell the 1960 and 1961 Walker-liveried 250GT SWBs apart - so far as their Goodwood TT appearances are concerned - by remembering that the earlier car ran with bumpers and radio aerial while the later car ran bumperless, no aerial. Here's the latter car - note the decided tonal contrast between the nose-top number disc and Rob's lateral white stripe, and between the white stripe on the side of the nose, and the number disc on the door. We have colour somewhere which confirms the issue, but it's proving elusive at the moment...

Photo Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

DCN

#17 RobertE

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 11:55

It is pale blue, I believe, on the later car...

#18 Alan Cox

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 12:39

You can tell the 1960 and 1961 Walker-liveried 250GT SWBs apart - so far as their Goodwood TT appearances are concerned - by remembering that the earlier car ran with bumpers and radio aerial while the later car ran bumperless, no aerial.
DCN

Super photo, Doug. The 1960 car also had a different profile to the top of the side windows, with a distinct downwards slope towards the rear.

#19 jon1977

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 19:10

I am new here but thought I would add my tuppence worth. I am currently in the process of making models of both the Moss and Parkes cars. Based on the limited photos and a low quality colour video that I have seen, I have come to the conclusion that the colour of the roundels on the two cars look similar enough that they were probably the same colour. This would be a slightly greenish blue, which only appears different when contrasted against the dark blue / red of the two cars. I am probably wrong, but there you go....

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#20 Doug Nye

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 19:13

No, not greenish-blue at all, but a pure pale powder blue. Some colour transparencies of the time have captured a kind of greenish tint but that is very misleading.

DCN

#21 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 07:18

So the question now becomes: why?


Were the roundels painted on, or were they made of some sort of transfer material. If they were white transfers of a thin material, perhaps the dark blue of the car showed through and made them appear light blue.

Vince H.


#22 Sharman

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 08:10

Were the roundels painted on, or were they made of some sort of transfer material. If they were white transfers of a thin material, perhaps the dark blue of the car showed through and made them appear light blue.

Vince H.


. The norm was stick on for "road" cars as opposed to pure racing cars, because they would eventually be sold to an unsuspecting public. Les Leston et al sold roundels and numbers at enormous (for the impecunious enthusiast) cost. It was cheaper to buy Fablon and make your own at a fraction of Les's prices