39 replies to this topic

[MaserGT]

Mail Online Article

[David McKinney]

We've already done this

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=153754

[MaserGT]

Ah my apologies for the duplication David.

[Doug Nye]

NOJ 393 sold this afternoon - a new world record price for any Austin-Healey - £843,000 Sterling...US $1,322,763...and 77 cents.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 01 December 2011 - 23:36.

[Mistron]

That's quite a result.

And so begins the big 'what to do with it' debate!
restore?
preserve?

let the fun begin.....

[Simon Thomas]

NOJ 393 sold this afternoon - a new world record price for any Austin-Healey - £843,000 Sterling.

DCN

Just incredible. I have to say, having owned one old Irish racing car involved in a multiple fatality, something does send a shiver down ones back when the main claim to fame is Le Mans 1955.
Simon Thomas

[BritishV8]

There are certainly more than 843,000 cars I'd rather have than the Macklin Healey...



If anyone's curious to brush-up on details that made Healey's "Special Test Cars" so special, this article may be of interest: Healey NOJ391

[Doug Nye]

[quote name='Simon Thomas' date='Dec 1 2011, 20:07' post=
...something does send a shiver down ones back when the main claim to fame is Le Mans 1955.
Simon Thomas
[/quote]

May I just emphasise that while for the mass media, and for the general public, 393's "main claim to fame" might be Le Mans 1955 - for Healey connoisseurs the car's multiple claims to fame are headed by the third place at Sebring which put the 'S' into '100S', the decent finish at Le Mans 1953 and Lance Macklin's participation in the Carrera PanAmericana ( albeit brief ) followed by a good showing in the Bahamas Speed Week. As a works Special Test Car it has special significance, as the only 100S to contest two Le Mans 24-Hour races it is particularly significant, and as a useable two-seater commanding entries in such a wide variety of premier-level modern day Historic events - virtually worldwide - its attraction proved even greater... Don't get too fixated by the Le Mans '55 history in isolation.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 01 December 2011 - 23:40.

[David Birchall]

Given that twenty odd years ago ex works Healeys made a quarter million or so pounds I don't find this surprising. The seller, I am sure, finds it very gratifying but give it another twenty years...?

[Simon Thomas]

[quote name='Doug Nye' post='5432954' date='Dec 1 2011, 22:25'][quote name='Simon Thomas' date='Dec 1 2011, 20:07' post=
...something does send a shiver down ones back when the main claim to fame is Le Mans 1955.
Simon Thomas


May I just emphasise that while for the mass media, and for the general public, 393's "main claim to fame" might be Le Mans 1955 - for Healey connoisseurs the car's multiple claims to fame are headed by the third place at Sebring which put the 'S' into '100S', the decent finish at Le Mans 1953 and Lance Macklin's participation in the Carrera PanAmericana ( albeit brief ) followed by a good showing in the Bahamas Speed Week. As a works Special Test Car it has special significance, as the only 100S to contest two Le Mans 24-Hour races it is particularly significant, and as a useable two-seater commanding entries in such a wide variety of premier-level modern day Historic events - virtually worldwide - its attraction proved even greater... Don't get too fixated by the Le Mans '55 history in isolation.

DCN[/quote]
Doug
Point taken.
Simon Thomas

[pete53]

A little while ago there was a discussion on TNF about the Peter Lindner Jaguar E-type and the ethics of restoring a car in which the driver had suffered a fatal accident.

Now although Macklin was not killed in the Le Mans accident a lot of people were and the Healey, although generally considered to be an innocent party, played an integral part in what happened. Doug points out that the Healey, putting aside the Le Mans tragedy, did have a race history of some merit. However, one could say the same of Lindner's car. I suppose what I am getting at here is whether there is any comparison to be made between these two restorations and the respective ethics entailed in such actions.

I should say that I don't have particularly strong feelings one way or another about either project but just wondered what other TNFers felt and whether an argument can be made for a strong distinction between the two.

[john ruston]

Debate about what the new owner does with it?

There is no debate as the man who has spent 850K will make that call on what has to be done to the wreck and that's how it should be.

He will probably spend another 150/200K for the rebuild.

Same thing applies no the Linder Jag.Peter Neumark has the odd bits and decided to recreate the car.His money ,he has the title,his decision.

Some of us may think its not think its the correct thing to do but that's life.We have an alternative ,buy it and do what we want with it.If we can't afford it, tough!

Owners makes the call, period and weather he tarts up a GTO Ferrari or paints cars in his own special colour scheme it's nothing to do with the rest of us.

Seem to remember a Spencer Flack conversation where someone complained to him about the colour he was painting his machines.VSCC meeting.Think it was BRM,Bentley and Spitfire.His answer was to ask them what colour they had painted their's.

As most of the 100S cars are going to the East ,via Dover,rather than Felixstowe assume this one is bound for Mainland Europe.

[D-Type]

Agreed - it's the owner's prerogative.

Nevertheless, I would hate to see the car restored to Le Mans 1955 condition and exhibited as "The car involved in the 1955 Le Mans accident that killed ...."
I would like to see it restored to any stage of its history, maintaining as much originality as practicable, and regularly raced or at least exercised publicly. Cars were made to run not to be static sculptures.
In this case, which is more original? Replacing the door etc it now has with a re-created aluminium elements to restore it back to when it was in its prime or leaving it with the non-original steel door it last raced with 40-odd years ago.

[Eric Dunsdon]

[quote name='Doug Nye' post='5432954' date='Dec 1 2011, 22:25'][quote name='Simon Thomas' date='Dec 1 2011, 20:07' post=
...something does send a shiver down ones back when the main claim to fame is Le Mans 1955.
Simon Thomas


May I just emphasise that while for the mass media, and for the general public, 393's "main claim to fame" might be Le Mans 1955 - for Healey connoisseurs the car's multiple claims to fame are headed by the third place at Sebring which put the 'S' into '100S', the decent finish at Le Mans 1953 and Lance Macklin's participation in the Carrera PanAmericana ( albeit brief ) followed by a good showing in the Bahamas Speed Week. As a works Special Test Car it has special significance, as the only 100S to contest two Le Mans 24-Hour races it is particularly significant, and as a useable two-seater commanding entries in such a wide variety of premier-level modern day Historic events - virtually worldwide - its attraction proved even greater... Don't get too fixated by the Le Mans '55 history in isolation.

DCN[/quote]
To me, this will also, always be the car that Lance Macklin was preparing to leave the Silverstone paddock in at the 1955 International Trophy meeting, when he delayed his departure to spend a few minutes chatting to Bauble and I. Being a Macklin fan I rather cheekily asked why he wasnt driving something more comptetive than an Austin Healey. Happily, this seemed to amuse him. I also mentioned that following Ken Wharton's fiery crash with the Vanwall in the Trophy Race, that there would probably be a vacancy with the team for Monaco, to which Lance replied, 'Mr Vandervell doesnt like his drivers to be married'. Lance Macklin seemed a nice man to us lads. Such a shame that he should be so involved in future tragedies.

[Bauble]

Despite the good memories, having witnessed the accident and seeing the car stranded beside the track, I would have wished that the car had been destroyed. it seems positively macabre auctioning it, and obscene the amount of money it brought. Too much history attached to it.
I appreciate DCN's viewpoint, and would stress this is a very personal opinion, Lance was a man who deserves better than to have this car constantly reminding people of an incident that must have destroyed his life.

May he Rest in Peace.

Bob.

Edited by Bauble, 02 December 2011 - 15:21.

[hipperson]

Thanks for posting ..MaserGT

[Kevan]

A little while ago there was a discussion on TNF about the Peter Lindner Jaguar E-type and the ethics of restoring a car in which the driver had suffered a fatal accident.

Now although Macklin was not killed in the Le Mans accident a lot of people were and the Healey, although generally considered to be an innocent party, played an integral part in what happened. Doug points out that the Healey, putting aside the Le Mans tragedy, did have a race history of some merit. However, one could say the same of Lindner's car. I suppose what I am getting at here is whether there is any comparison to be made between these two restorations and the respective ethics entailed in such actions.

I should say that I don't have particularly strong feelings one way or another about either project but just wondered what other TNFers felt and whether an argument can be made for a strong distinction between the two.

Personally, I think I'd be more comfortable about seeing NOJ393 restored than I am the Lindner E-Type. For me, the fundamental difference is that the Lindner E-Type wasn't rebuilt at the time, and it obviously never raced again- Until the wreckage was resurrected and the car restored, the history of the Lindner E-Type ended with that fatal crash.

The Healey, on the other hand, was repaired at the time, and went on to have a continued race history after Le Mans- I don't know if it will make sense to everyone, but for me, that fact gives it some degree of separation from the Le Mans tragedy. Obviously, Le Mans 1955 is a huge part of the history of the car, but it is only a part of the story, and unlike the Lindner Jaguar, it isn't the point where NOJ393's story ended.

I can completely understand Bauble's viewpoint though, and for that reason, I do hope that whatever the new owner chooses to do with the car, it isn't restored into Le Mans 1955 condition and colours- I'd much rather see it presented in Sebring or Le Mans '53 guise.

In fact, if I'd shelled out £800k+ for it, I think I'd look into going down the 'sensitive recomissioning' route, while trying to preserve it in a condition as close as possible to the current cosmetic state, and focus on the car's originality and significance in the overall Healey story, rather than the tragedy that will always overshadow it anyway

Edited by Kevan, 03 December 2011 - 11:59.

[RTH]

Is it just me or have prices gone astronomical for classic/old/competition cars in the last 5 years , particularly just at a time when you would expect the trend to be down.
Just a look through this month's 'Motorsport' at cars for sale is breathtaking and eyewatering.
Whether we like it or not I suspect that Healey would not have reached that mark without its distasteful '55LM involvement.

Back in '89 Ferrari F40s were selling in excess of a million pounds each. A year or so later prices crashed back down.
The world economic outlook is now indeed grim for the next 5-10 years maybe beyond.
Since the abolition of higher rate income tax in UK and elsewhere the proliferation of tax havens a new super-rich class has been created, or certainly much expanded at the expense of national debts in UK USA and continental Europe.
Maybe governments across the spectrum this time under such financial pressure may join together in common policy in reining back the very wealthy who clearly drive top end prices. Who knows, we are now in uncharted waters.
As someone once said we are living in interesting times.

[J. Scott Morris]

Given that twenty odd years ago ex works Healeys made a quarter million or so pounds I don't find this surprising. The seller, I am sure, finds it very gratifying but give it another twenty years...?

STOP PRESS: The Austin Healey '100' Special Test Car, NOJ 393, sold for £ 843,000 or $1,324,000US inclusive of buyer's premium, at Bonhams auction on Thursday. Based on a report by Graeme Hurst of Classic & Sports Car, NOJ 393 was bought by a Continental collector at the auction after the collector went against another bidder on the floor, and one on the phone, to secure the car. The buyer indicated that the car would be restored in the UK.

Now there is a rumour that NOJ 393 has sold again to Australia for £1.2m or $1,885,000US [using the same exchange rate]. If true, what a quick buck to make.

Can anyone confirm or refute this 'rumour'?

--Scott Morris; Simcoe, Ontario, Canada - Keep Smiling, Murphy Lives

[john ruston]

Does how the price was reached matter.

There are a few major 100S collectors with major players in Alps and UK.Most bid on the car the other day

Suggest this new sale is unlikely as one of the big hitters already owned car.

Pleased to see some cars are holding their perceived value.Not many are!Going to be lots of disappointed owners around.Someday they will learn they are toys not investments.

[john ruston]

Think you will find the car is going to Australia for restoration.No change in ownership.

[Doug Nye]

Now there is a rumour that NOJ 393 has sold again to Australia for £1.2m or $1,885,000US [using the same exchange rate]. If true, what a quick buck to make.

Can anyone confirm or refute this 'rumour'?

--Scott Morris; Simcoe, Ontario, Canada - Keep Smiling, Murphy Lives

To the best of my knowledge this supposed 'rumour' is utter twaddle - the car is instead being entrusted by its buyer at the Bonhams auction to a specialist Austin-Healey restorer in Australia.

DCN

[RTH]

Coys sale tomorrow Wednesday ( viewing today) Royal horticultural halls Westminster ( where the January Racing Car Show was held some 41 years ago.

http://www.coys.co.u...I...e=1&start=1

Be interesting to see the results, anyone going ?

[john ruston]

Bit of difference between Coy's and Bonham's.Can't see this sale being a market barometer.

Why the surprise about the sale of the Healey.

100S's have always been sold at about 40%-50% of a C Type .

The car in question is about that.

[David Birchall]

I was disappointed to see this as part of the description of this Healey on Keith Martin's "Sports Car Market" website:
" holds the dubious distinction of being responsible for the most deadly crash in race history, the Le Mans Disaster, where 84 spectators were killed. "

[Sharman]

Coys sale tomorrow Wednesday ( viewing today) Royal horticultural halls Westminster ( where the January Racing Car Show was held some 41 years ago.

http://www.coys.co.u...I...e=1&start=1

Be interesting to see the results, anyone going ?

You're 10 years out Richard, 51 years ago.

[J. Scott Morris]

To the best of my knowledge this supposed 'rumour' is utter twaddle - the car is instead being entrusted by its buyer at the Bonhams auction to a specialist Austin-Healey restorer in Australia.

DCN

Thank you Doug for clarifying / clearing up what was considered to be just that; a rumour.

--Scott Morris; Simcoe, Ontario, Canada

[Doug Nye]

This kind of thing makes us wonder how such rumours take root, especially when they throw out such specific details of profit taken, etc.

DCN

[Doug Nye]

Yes indeed - "Disappointed" does not cover it, David...

DCN

[Alan Cox]

Yes indeed - "Disappointed" does not cover it, David...
DCN

They now appear to have amended their report.

[Doug Nye]

Funny thing, coincidence...

DCN

[David Birchall]

Gee, I wonder who we thank for that coincidence?

I was disappointed because Keith Martin seems to be taking the "tabloid" approach to his reporting these days. I used to race against Keith in the eighties-before he started the market newsletter thingy-and I thought he was a smart guy. "Pleasing" the masses seems to have taken precedence over objectivity.

[fbarrett]

Gee, I wonder who we thank for that coincidence?

I was disappointed because Keith Martin seems to be taking the "tabloid" approach to his reporting these days. I used to race against Keith in the eighties-before he started the market newsletter thingy-and I thought he was a smart guy. "Pleasing" the masses seems to have taken precedence over objectivity.

Don't forget that most of his advertisers are auction companies.

[Doug Nye]

Whoa - steady on chaps. In my experience Keith is an extremely sound, hard-nosed and knowledgeable guy who has for years resisted near intolerable pressures to do what he does not only quite honestly and objectively, but also from the viewpoint of a lifelong and genuine enthusiast. The occasional unthinking lapse or factual oversight will always happen. Show me a man who has never made a mistake and I'll show you a man who hasn't done much.

DCN

[Bauble]

" Show me a man who has never made a mistake."

You talking about me Doug?

[D-Type]

" Show me a man who has never made a mistake."

You talking about me Doug?

... and I'll show you a man who hasn't done much.

DCN

Et ne nos inducas in tentationem

Edited by D-Type, 07 December 2011 - 22:24.

[grelley]

I have for the past year or so been doing some work on a 100S, and I still find it difficult to come to terms with the value of these cars. Given that a lot of the parts of the 100S are standard 100/4 parts, apart from the brakes, engine, and alloy bodywork and probably a few other bits. It seems to me to be very similar to the values of genuine Lotus Cortinas, basically a Mk1 2 door floor change Cortina shell fitted with (in the early cars) a suspension that wasnt that successful, an alloy head and timing cover waterpump assembly (that wasnt that successful), and varying amounts of alloy panels throughout its life. As said I guess the next step up from a 100S is a C Type, so the 100S must be worth a proportion of this. I guess the bottom line to values is what someone is prepared to pay. The other part of the value is the events you can get into with such a car.

[RTH]

Picture of the car

http://www.bonhams.com/eur/press/6299/

[Bauble]

Et ne nos inducas in tentationem

Introducing humour to a serious discussion?

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

[W154]

To the best of my knowledge this supposed 'rumour' is utter twaddle - the car is instead being entrusted by its buyer at the Bonhams auction to a specialist Austin-Healey restorer in Australia.

DCN

.....hopefully not to the "lovely chap" currently advertising on e-bay in Australia. Check out 2006 8623 4694 on the Australian E-bay site.
Buy my car, give it a quick spray job and you can make a quick million profit .No mention of the history of the car he uses in the main photo for his advert. Lets not get the facts in the way of a quick buck.
Come in sucker....