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Classic/modern tyres etc


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#1 dommieracer

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 23:37

How many of us have looked at old footage of racing and also riden in that time ( sorry to say i fail on that part ) and then looked at todays rubber and thought...that the grip given back in the 50's/60's was crap? What makes it worse is that for us today with modern science on tyres and er upgraded machines we dont seem to be that much faster. Please if i am wrong correct me but put one of our heroes on a period machine they would still be faster today than most of us today. Is this down to the high calibre of rider? Or is that modern is not as good as we thought it to be?
For me i would love to have period tyres etc for period racing. Oh that would also mean getting rid of the awfull baked bean tin at the end of the exhausts.
Kevin

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#2 rotrax

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 23:06

How many of us have looked at old footage of racing and also riden in that time ( sorry to say i fail on that part ) and then looked at todays rubber and thought...that the grip given back in the 50's/60's was crap? What makes it worse is that for us today with modern science on tyres and er upgraded machines we dont seem to be that much faster. Please if i am wrong correct me but put one of our heroes on a period machine they would still be faster today than most of us today. Is this down to the high calibre of rider? Or is that modern is not as good as we thought it to be?
For me i would love to have period tyres etc for period racing. Oh that would also mean getting rid of the awfull baked bean tin at the end of the exhausts.
Kevin

I cant possibly agree that" we dont seen to be that much faster" I have been round Brands Club Circuit in a fraction over the 60 second mark on two or three vintage and classic race bikes. I know they are going better than this now. It may be tricky to compare like with like as the bikes I rode were not replica ohc singles from some of the wonderful engineers that produce them. Steve Linsdell knows his way round the island. He once rode Andy Savages 500 Manx Norton in the Classic MGP. Not a replica,four speed box,about as right as you could get. Check out his lap speeds then and what they get round in now on the replicas with six speed boxes and modern tyres-I am sure the difference will be significant. I hope so anyway!

#3 Rennmax

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 14:37

I cant possibly agree that" we dont seen to be that much faster" I have been round Brands Club Circuit in a fraction over the 60 second mark on two or three vintage and classic race bikes. I know they are going better than this now. It may be tricky to compare like with like as the bikes I rode were not replica ohc singles from some of the wonderful engineers that produce them. Steve Linsdell knows his way round the island. He once rode Andy Savages 500 Manx Norton in the Classic MGP. Not a replica,four speed box,about as right as you could get. Check out his lap speeds then and what they get round in now on the replicas with six speed boxes and modern tyres-I am sure the difference will be significant. I hope so anyway!



I think it's not easy to compare the lap speeds of different eras after all the changes of the TT circuit since SMBH or Minter performed 100 mph laps on Manxes

#4 Herr Wankel

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 14:53

They don't appear to be too bad !

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HW

#5 terryshep

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 15:48

How many of us have looked at old footage of racing and also riden in that time ( sorry to say i fail on that part ) and then looked at todays rubber and thought...that the grip given back in the 50's/60's was crap? What makes it worse is that for us today with modern science on tyres and er upgraded machines we dont seem to be that much faster. Please if i am wrong correct me but put one of our heroes on a period machine they would still be faster today than most of us today. Is this down to the high calibre of rider? Or is that modern is not as good as we thought it to be?
For me i would love to have period tyres etc for period racing. Oh that would also mean getting rid of the awfull baked bean tin at the end of the exhausts.
Kevin

What you have to remember, Kevin, is that we thought we had the absolute ace tyres of the day - what you don't know about, you don't miss. In fact, tyres are not the great differentiator at the TT that they are in circuit racing and of course, we didn't have slicks of various degrees of softness to think about.

What really matters in the Island is speed. In the Fifties, it was known that a 500 Manx was flat-out for 21 miles of the lap and simple arithmetic will tell you that 4 or 5 mph would be a considerable help and 10mph would be a bigger one. When you consider that a good Manx gave 50bhp and today's Manxes and G50s give over 60 and they do it on a circuit which is immeasurably faster than it was then, so that a bike with that top speed would now be flat for considerably further than 21 miles, you would expect them to be going a bit quicker than we did.

#6 dommieracer

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 15:52

I can see both sides, i just dont feel that speeds have increased that much if you knock out the following. Better suspension, ignition, more gears, track surface and altered tracks etc. Like Brands is now smoother and shorter due to changes at paddock and bottom bend. Brandish on the island is now like a bypass, nothing like it used to be. I am not knocking the riders in any way as 99% of them are faster than me and i hope that i can alter that next whan i hope to be back on the track.

Sidecar tyres from 50/60's offered little grip compared to todays version of which you only get one width now. It works in both ways, todays corner speed are a tad faster but the old days cornering was sideways.

Kevin

I have only gathered what i feel from talking to riders from both stages of racing, i grew up surrounded by racers from the 60's at my house as my father did alot of racing from clubmans to GP's and my own expeirence with more modern one make series and the superbike ride.

Edited by dommieracer, 03 December 2011 - 15:56.


#7 rotrax

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 23:07

What you have to remember, Kevin, is that we thought we had the absolute ace tyres of the day - what you don't know about, you don't miss. In fact, tyres are not the great differentiator at the TT that they are in circuit racing and of course, we didn't have slicks of various degrees of softness to think about.

What really matters in the Island is speed. In the Fifties, it was known that a 500 Manx was flat-out for 21 miles of the lap and simple arithmetic will tell you that 4 or 5 mph would be a considerable help and 10mph would be a bigger one. When you consider that a good Manx gave 50bhp and today's Manxes and G50s give over 60 and they do it on a circuit which is immeasurably faster than it was then, so that a bike with that top speed would now be flat for considerably further than 21 miles, you would expect them to be going a bit quicker than we did.

Hi Terry, I think the difference is the quality of the riders. If you compare the Hard men on the old singles who were going quick at the TT and the big mainland races many were pro's or semi pro. Most Classic MGP riders are not. Once,in the dim and distant past-1978?- the late Alan Robinson was commentating at MCC Silverstone.The meeting was on the club circuit. Off the start, Copse,Maggotts,Shaws hairpin, straight and finally Woodcote. I came in behind Peter Taylor who was on Richard Pecketts P&M Kawasaki 1000. I was on a similar bike, my 720 version. Alan said during his commentary that Peter and I had both equalled the lap record for the club circuit, 1min 03 secs. After the prizegiving I asked who held the record for the short Silverstone. Alan and Arthur Bonwick looked it up in the track book. It was Tom Phillips from Newbury on a 500 Higley Norton. Hard old triangulars, 50hp, drum brakes. Both the Kawasaki's had 7 inch rears, fat fronts,twin discs and 100hp, and at that time were leading edge F1 bikes. I am sure Peter wont mind me saying it,but both of us were really club level riders. Tom Phillips, although not a Read,Minter or Hailwood was an International level rider. He could obviously go a bit!

#8 terryshep

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 18:29

Hi Terry, I think the difference is the quality of the riders. If you compare the Hard men on the old singles who were going quick at the TT and the big mainland races many were pro's or semi pro. Most Classic MGP riders are not. Once,in the dim and distant past-1978?- the late Alan Robinson was commentating at MCC Silverstone.The meeting was on the club circuit. Off the start, Copse,Maggotts,Shaws hairpin, straight and finally Woodcote. I came in behind Peter Taylor who was on Richard Pecketts P&M Kawasaki 1000. I was on a similar bike, my 720 version. Alan said during his commentary that Peter and I had both equalled the lap record for the club circuit, 1min 03 secs. After the prizegiving I asked who held the record for the short Silverstone. Alan and Arthur Bonwick looked it up in the track book. It was Tom Phillips from Newbury on a 500 Higley Norton. Hard old triangulars, 50hp, drum brakes. Both the Kawasaki's had 7 inch rears, fat fronts,twin discs and 100hp, and at that time were leading edge F1 bikes. I am sure Peter wont mind me saying it,but both of us were really club level riders. Tom Phillips, although not a Read,Minter or Hailwood was an International level rider. He could obviously go a bit!

Mr R., your Silverstone story simply illuminates the whole difference between a proper, purpose-built racing motorcycle and the sort of ex-road camels which are passed off as racing bikes these days. The fact that you disposed of probably twice the horsepower of Tom's Norton to achieve the same object says it all. While he would be clinically carving the bends, you would be struggling with your overweight behemoths, fighting to get the power on the ground soon enough to overcome the wind resistance of your lumbering monsters. You should be proud to have even kept the Norton in sight, never mind equalled its lap-time! God help you if you'd been at Oulton, or anywhere else with corners.

OK, I'm pulling your leg a bit, but you get the point.

#9 rotrax

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 20:36

Mr R., your Silverstone story simply illuminates the whole difference between a proper, purpose-built racing motorcycle and the sort of ex-road camels which are passed off as racing bikes these days. The fact that you disposed of probably twice the horsepower of Tom's Norton to achieve the same object says it all. While he would be clinically carving the bends, you would be struggling with your overweight behemoths, fighting to get the power on the ground soon enough to overcome the wind resistance of your lumbering monsters. You should be proud to have even kept the Norton in sight, never mind equalled its lap-time! God help you if you'd been at Oulton, or anywhere else with corners.

OK, I'm pulling your leg a bit, but you get the point.

Hi Terry, at the time I was performing on the 720 P&M Kawasaki I regularly put it across the late John Goodall on the Vendetta Matchless and Dave Pither on the Seely. You appear to be missing the point a little about how much better these riders were. I remember the same Tom Phillips getting a first class award at an earlier MCC Silverstone riding a road going Matchless 350 G3LS. It was obviously hopped up a bit but Tom was able to finish in front of many 650 Nortons and Triumphs. He had to do (IIRC) 26 laps in 30 mins. to get a first class. Provini could have found inspiration from Tom that day-you could only see the top of his helmet above the handlebars! I remember John Cooper telling about the time he did the "local" Dutch, Belgian and French GP'S. He was on the pace with Redman and the riders who did the post TT Mallory. When he got on their turf it was a different ball game-they rode with the determination and commitment that pro riders have to have to reach the top of the sport. Anyway-I was never in that league-what do I know.

Edited by rotrax, 05 December 2011 - 20:38.


#10 terryshep

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 17:22

Hi Terry, at the time I was performing on the 720 P&M Kawasaki I regularly put it across the late John Goodall on the Vendetta Matchless and Dave Pither on the Seely. You appear to be missing the point a little about how much better these riders were. I remember the same Tom Phillips getting a first class award at an earlier MCC Silverstone riding a road going Matchless 350 G3LS. It was obviously hopped up a bit but Tom was able to finish in front of many 650 Nortons and Triumphs. He had to do (IIRC) 26 laps in 30 mins. to get a first class. Provini could have found inspiration from Tom that day-you could only see the top of his helmet above the handlebars! I remember John Cooper telling about the time he did the "local" Dutch, Belgian and French GP'S. He was on the pace with Redman and the riders who did the post TT Mallory. When he got on their turf it was a different ball game-they rode with the determination and commitment that pro riders have to have to reach the top of the sport. Anyway-I was never in that league-what do I know.

No, R., I wasn't missing the point about some riders being better than others, I just didn't want to bring such comparisons into the discussion. In my original post I was trying to compare the original Manx with the modern replicas and highlighting the difference in performance and how important speed is in the Island, rather than tyres or brakes.

You had the pleasure of racing against the people you mentioned, so you are entitled to draw comparisons: I didn't, so I'm not qualified to speak about them. Too many people are ready to offer their unasked opinions on riders, without ever having any personal experience of them, or any idea of what any rider, Club or International, has to do and has to give up to get there. It's why I don't have much time for commentators opinions on TV.



#11 rotrax

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 18:39

No, R., I wasn't missing the point about some riders being better than others, I just didn't want to bring such comparisons into the discussion. In my original post I was trying to compare the original Manx with the modern replicas and highlighting the difference in performance and how important speed is in the Island, rather than tyres or brakes.

You had the pleasure of racing against the people you mentioned, so you are entitled to draw comparisons: I didn't, so I'm not qualified to speak about them. Too many people are ready to offer their unasked opinions on riders, without ever having any personal experience of them, or any idea of what any rider, Club or International, has to do and has to give up to get there. It's why I don't have much time for commentators opinions on TV.

I am begining to see where you are coming from. Easy to imagine what a Hailwood, Read or Minter could have done on one of the latest 60hp replicas. But as I said before, the current crop of classic racers are exactly that, guys that are racing classic bikes,albeit replicas in many cases. We are comparing them with GP level riders of a previous era on less developed machinery and less grippy rubber. I remember a Cycle World test of a replica Manx with KR senior on board. IIRC he went faster very quickly than the usual rider and then broke the classic lap record. He did not like the bike either-I believe he described it as a slug. Fair enough I suppose-he was usually on a 500 four cylinder two stroke GP bike. The comparison with the Island is more relevant-you are bang on with how important it is to have a high top speed, and the benifits of this in achieving good lap times. BUT without a fast rider on board a fast bike is no guaranteed route to success-as I know only too well! Mamarou Moriwaki said years ago when he was helping Croz that the first thing you need for a fast motorbike is a fast rider. Tongue in cheek, I rest my case!

#12 terryshep

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 18:04

I am begining to see where you are coming from. Easy to imagine what a Hailwood, Read or Minter could have done on one of the latest 60hp replicas. But as I said before, the current crop of classic racers are exactly that, guys that are racing classic bikes,albeit replicas in many cases. We are comparing them with GP level riders of a previous era on less developed machinery and less grippy rubber. I remember a Cycle World test of a replica Manx with KR senior on board. IIRC he went faster very quickly than the usual rider and then broke the classic lap record. He did not like the bike either-I believe he described it as a slug. Fair enough I suppose-he was usually on a 500 four cylinder two stroke GP bike. The comparison with the Island is more relevant-you are bang on with how important it is to have a high top speed, and the benifits of this in achieving good lap times. BUT without a fast rider on board a fast bike is no guaranteed route to success-as I know only too well! Mamarou Moriwaki said years ago when he was helping Croz that the first thing you need for a fast motorbike is a fast rider. Tongue in cheek, I rest my case!

Just to keep you busy over this Xmas period, Mr. R., about a year ago you initiated a thread about supercharged racers - and you expressed surprise that so many of us were immediately drawn in. You implied then that you had untold riches to share with us, photographically, but lacked the expertise to upload them. You are well beyond that stage now, R., so what about giving us these pictures of those lovely blown devices from before WW2?

#13 rotrax

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 11:00

Just to keep you busy over this Xmas period, Mr. R., about a year ago you initiated a thread about supercharged racers - and you expressed surprise that so many of us were immediately drawn in. You implied then that you had untold riches to share with us, photographically, but lacked the expertise to upload them. You are well beyond that stage now, R., so what about giving us these pictures of those lovely blown devices from before WW2?

Hi Terry, your are right. I would not go so far as to say they are untold riches but I believe they are of significance. At the momemt-certainly untill April- I am working. Barbara and I also look after three aged parents which keeps us pretty busy. I am not very au fait with IT and its requirements so I must leave it to Barbara. I will try to give it the attention it deserves shortly. Best Regards, Mike.

#14 terryshep

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 12:36

Hi Terry, your are right. I would not go so far as to say they are untold riches but I believe they are of significance. At the momemt-certainly untill April- I am working. Barbara and I also look after three aged parents which keeps us pretty busy. I am not very au fait with IT and its requirements so I must leave it to Barbara. I will try to give it the attention it deserves shortly. Best Regards, Mike.

Thank you, Mike, I'll look forward to that. Have a good Xmas and 2012.