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The winds of change, or more of the same?


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#1 rd500

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 09:42

have a read, see what you think. this was out at the end of last month

Dorna CEO Carmelo Ezpeleta believes MotoGP cannot continue in its current state, saying that change is needed right now and that an era is over.

The championship has struggled to fill the grid properly this year, with just 17 bikes competing regularly.

In contrast, the Moto2 championship has a 32-rider field, with 125cc also fielding over 30 bikes in each race.

Ezpeleta believes that the spectacle offered by MotoGP is unsatisfactory at the moment and that the sport must react immediately.

"I don't like the way things are going," Ezpeleta told Motosprint magazine. "I don't like MotoGP these days. We have a series where the Hondas go very quick, some others a bit less, and others even worse. This way there is little fighting, so the spectacle is unsatisfactory.

"This isn't just a technological challenge, it's also a sport and entertainment. I don't like this situation, so things won't go on this way for much longer."

Dorna has been pushing the new Claiming Rule Teams system, which will allow elements of modified production machinery, although riders like world champion Casey Stoner had threatened to walk out if the rules are steered towards production-based bikes.

Ezpeleta insisted, however, that the current system is simply not working, as it is making the sport too expensive.

"It's clear by now that the way the bikes are built doesn't work anymore," he said. "It's not suited to the world's economic situation anymore. If we carry on this way, with the teams lacking the budget to have the bike leased, in 2013 we'll only have two Hondas on the grid! This sport is not supposed to go this way.

"I've decided I won't help anymore, from a financial point of view, any team that gets MotoGP bikes leased. Dorna will only help teams that use CRTs. If we get to the situation where three constructors field six bikes in total, we'll carry on supporting and helping financially only the CRT teams. This way we'll manage to have the other 16 bikes we need."

He added: "It's paradoxical that Moto2, a once heavily-criticised series, is the one that offers the best spectacle at the moment, despite having, in theory, riders of a much lower level compared to MotoGP. We've reached the point where there are MotoGP riders that can't do anything because they don't have adequate technical means, because to race you need five millions...

"We've reached the point where private teams can't have MotoGP bikes to race anymore: Aspar's case, like many others too, is exemplary.

"It's ridiculous that a rider like [Moto2 champion Stefan] Bradl is asked four or five millions to race in MotoGP. How the hell is it possible that you need such an amount? How can we go on with the manufacturers asking for four millions for a leased bike, that is to use a bike that can't become the team's property? That's enough, this story has to end, and quickly too. This era is over.

"The constructors may say and act the way they want, but they can't change reality. This is reality: there's no more money, we need to spend less. We can't keep on watching anymore, we must act now."



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#2 lesgoose

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 12:52

Heavens above what ever next some one has come out of a deep sleep or visiting the forum and seen what we have been saying for a long time.

#3 RVF400

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 13:55

"It's paradoxical that Moto2, a once heavily-criticised series, is the one that offers the best spectacle at the moment"


And what spectacle are we talking about? Close racing or a sports top class featuring the pinnacle of technology and
engineering racing prototype motorcycles?
I don't care how many bikes are on the grid if the grid is made up of bikes stretching the engineers minds like the NR500.

#4 rd500

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 15:05

it seems the pennies finally dropped but you have to question what his answers to his problems will be, its fair to say in all the time ive been going to bike racing the last 10 years have proved to be the most confusing, misleading,costly and potentially disastrous for motorcycling sport.

sure we went through the relentless changes of the british championships in the 80s especially ,when there were so many classes all with the same goal it made it hard to judge which one was the actual main championship.

it resulted in the same thinking, we want to change but we dont know what that change is to be, this pursuit of constant "fixing" of the grand prix classes over the past 10 years is what has led to the very thing mr ezpaleta is critisizing now.

honda getting their pedestal, aprillia one of the longest serving grand prix entrants castised as the black sheep, they were pursuing the captive market when no other manufacturer could afford to as they ploughed all the money into motgp which now incidently the maker of that pie wants to change the filling he put in the first place.

historical classes which meant so much to so many thrown to one side and rebranded, no more class specialists, young riders forced onto machines they clearly do not want to make the change to and at at the bottom of the pile the long forgotten privateer, the very man IRTA strived so hard to get rid of in the late 80s then realised there were no bikes on the grid so the factories helped out to provide this.

then in the 2002 with the help of DORNA, IRTA could again hope to rid the world of the privateer which they did of course and now with them realising there is no bikes on the grid [which took them 3 times longer than the first time] are now trying to get the privateer back in.

all the messing about and careless disregard of course filtered down to the national championships and the happy handed manufatcurers were all too happy to have restricted glorified classes in which to show their product, stifling the advancment of many talents as they had nowhere to go as all the classes which led you to a gp ride were abandoned and we brought a generation of road bike racers who could only attrarct one end, wsb - THE most overated motorcycling world championship ever created.

ill get my cloak now :well:

#5 fil2.8

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 15:56

it seems the pennies finally dropped but you have to question what his answers to his problems will be, its fair to say in all the time ive been going to bike racing the last 10 years have proved to be the most confusing, misleading,costly and potentially disastrous for motorcycling sport.

sure we went through the relentless changes of the british championships in the 80s especially ,when there were so many classes all with the same goal it made it hard to judge which one was the actual main championship.

it resulted in the same thinking, we want to change but we dont know what that change is to be, this pursuit of constant "fixing" of the grand prix classes over the past 10 years is what has led to the very thing mr ezpaleta is critisizing now.

honda getting their pedestal, aprillia one of the longest serving grand prix entrants castised as the black sheep, they were pursuing the captive market when no other manufacturer could afford to as they ploughed all the money into motgp which now incidently the maker of that pie wants to change the filling he put in the first place.

historical classes which meant so much to so many thrown to one side and rebranded, no more class specialists, young riders forced onto machines they clearly do not want to make the change to and at at the bottom of the pile the long forgotten privateer, the very man IRTA strived so hard to get rid of in the late 80s then realised there were no bikes on the grid so the factories helped out to provide this.

then in the 2002 with the help of DORNA, IRTA could again hope to rid the world of the privateer which they did of course and now with them realising there is no bikes on the grid [which took them 3 times longer than the first time] are now trying to get the privateer back in.

all the messing about and careless disregard of course filtered down to the national championships and the happy handed manufatcurers were all too happy to have restricted glorified classes in which to show their product, stifling the advancment of many talents as they had nowhere to go as all the classes which led you to a gp ride were abandoned and we brought a generation of road bike racers who could only attrarct one end, wsb - THE most overated motorcycling world championship ever created.

ill get my cloak now :well:




Bravo !!!! very , very well said :clap: :clap: :up: :wave:

#6 picblanc

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 16:00

Massive budgets were spent on swanky Motor homes & on hospitality, on bikes that are set up by a bloke with a lap top not the rider, on very complex & expensive engines & computor software, a split paddock, MotoGP is seperated in the paddock from Moto2 & 125 teams by a swipe card security system.
They wanted it to be more like F1, but it could never be because it is no where near as popular, so advertising in general is from in house i:e motorcycle related products, so budgets are "tiny" compared to F1.
The way to go is the any chassis any engine combo (for now) I stopped watching the MotoGP race before the Silverstone race this year & have not missed it, but will give the new format a go next year? :well:

#7 Rob

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 18:04

And what spectacle are we talking about? Close racing or a sports top class featuring the pinnacle of technology and
engineering racing prototype motorcycles?
I don't care how many bikes are on the grid if the grid is made up of bikes stretching the engineers minds like the NR500.


But equally, there shouldn't be anything wrong with using production technology as a starting point.

#8 Paul Collins

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 11:50

But equally, there shouldn't be anything wrong with using production technology as a starting point.


Bring back the TZ250/350, available to everyone at around two grand with a spares kit, and if you were good enough it would get you onto a GP podium!!

If only it was that simple :)

Edited by Paul Collins, 10 December 2011 - 13:30.


#9 RC162

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 13:43


All I want to see is great racing. I don't care what the spec of the bike is. I don't care if it looks like a road bike. I don't care if it is two stroke or four stroke. I don't care if it has all the gizmo's or non at all. I don't care if they all use the same tyre. I just don't care !!

All I want is great racing. All I want is an affordable platform where the best riders on the planet get to show their ability on a motorcycle and where the cream of this talent can rise to the top.

#10 mfd

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 16:02

If only it was that simple :)


Precisely! How many times do we see misguided decisions? It seems that wherever a choice can be made by people who should know & care, from politics downwards the errors are there for us to see.
In the days when Yamaha made substantial income from the sales of racing bikes, Honda seemed hell bent on killing the golden goose. Compare the price of an RG to an RS500. It was the beginning of the end that restricted the breeding ground of new talent. I'd also point to the day when Ecclestone expressed an interest in bike GP's as another turning point.

I had an invite to the last Silverstone Moto GP (Saturday) & paddock access too. What this (privelige) gave me was the opportunity to walk an avenue between the back of closed pit garages and a series of small & inaccessible instant build glass boxes, with no bikes or famous faces to be seen anywhere. Standing on the inside of Club near the new pitlane looking through chain link at bikes that were about 200 yards away. Standing on a motorway bridge would be more entertaining, so why should it be surprising no-one turns up & pays!

It's a turn off on TV for me too (Graham). The TV presenters, make such a performance about nothing, but the guys hyping it all are doing nicely thank you, as TV is the great employer of today. If they're aware or care how bad it really looks, they do very little to show it. I won't start about F1 & the influences from that as I think I'd explode :evil:

#11 fil2.8

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 16:35

Precisely! How many times do we see misguided decisions? It seems that wherever a choice can be made by people who should know & care, from politics downwards the errors are there for us to see.
In the days when Yamaha made substantial income from the sales of racing bikes, Honda seemed hell bent on killing the golden goose. Compare the price of an RG to an RS500. It was the beginning of the end that restricted the breeding ground of new talent. I'd also point to the day when Ecclestone expressed an interest in bike GP's as another turning point.

I had an invite to the last Silverstone Moto GP (Saturday) & paddock access too. What this (privelige) gave me was the opportunity to walk an avenue between the back of closed pit garages and a series of small & inaccessible instant build glass boxes, with no bikes or famous faces to be seen anywhere. Standing on the inside of Club near the new pitlane looking through chain link at bikes that were about 200 yards away. Standing on a motorway bridge would be more entertaining, so why should it be surprising no-one turns up & pays!

It's a turn off on :clap:TV for me too (Graham). The TV presenters, make such a performance about nothing, but the guys hyping it all are doing nicely thank you, as TV is the great employer of today. If they're aware or care how bad it really looks, they do very little to show it. I won't start about F1 & the influences from that as I think I'd explode :evil:




Very well said , Mike :up: :clap: :clap: , why the hell can't those on the inside see this :rolleyes: and use the same common sense shown here , and , elsewhere :confused:

#12 rd500

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 11:10

regardig the paddock seperation, remember this is what IRTA done with the sidecars and the 80cc then when the 80cc were gone they tried to do it with the 125s.

IRTA made no secret they found the privateers nothing short of a headache [basically because the americans said so] and they wanted the gps to be a 250/500 affair long before Dorna arrived.

the way things are going it renders the whole history of the sport useless as we are basically starting all over again with modded production motors.

i think we have to face it there will be nobody again like your nobby clarkes, erv kanemotos or ian mckays who were brought up on the TZ250/350s etc with the very privateers they wanted rid of.

you cant blame the riders but it annoys me how rossi says all this stuff about how unhappy he is and the troubles of the sport and how it was when he started then stands back as it happens before him, at least some of the great champions had the balls to stand up for what they thought was right.

do you ever see a motorcyclist smile after winning a race these days, it just doesnt look fun. mabye they should all go back to being privateers challenging the world on red bank balance, least they would have laugh.



#13 mfd

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 11:48

You can't blame the riders but it annoys me how Rossi says all this stuff about how unhappy he is and the troubles of the sport and how it was when he started then stands back as it happens before him, at least some of the great champions had the balls to stand up for what they thought was right.

Do you ever see a motorcyclist smile after winning a race these days, it just doesn't look fun. Maybe they should all go back to being privateers challenging the world on red bank balance, least they would have laugh.


Perhaps their world is so removed from reality? Sure they put their balls on the line riding those beasts, so perhaps that's why they forgot how to smile? This is why I find Stoner so difficult to "like". He's at the time of his life, top of the tree, successful & paid, yet he'll always have to point out how difficult it all is.
As for fun, it gets tedious hearing the F1 drivers banging on about "that was fun" etc. Although there's a few that get a little petulant & have the odd stroppy moment, on the whole most of them are paid a shit load of money to have what they describe as fun.

#14 terryshep

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 15:28

Perhaps their world is so removed from reality? Sure they put their balls on the line riding those beasts, so perhaps that's why they forgot how to smile? This is why I find Stoner so difficult to "like". He's at the time of his life, top of the tree, successful & paid, yet he'll always have to point out how difficult it all is.
As for fun, it gets tedious hearing the F1 drivers banging on about "that was fun" etc. Although there's a few that get a little petulant & have the odd stroppy moment, on the whole most of them are paid a shit load of money to have what they describe as fun.

It's a sad fact that the moment you get paid to do it, the fun starts to fly out of the door. The more money and technology that goes into putting the bike on the grid, the heavier the burden, hence the weight the current GP blokes are under - and it shows. Rossi can afford to laugh & joke, his legend is secure and everybody knows that if the bike is up to it, he will wring its neck. He also has a long-standing team around him who are now a bunch of mates, so he can keep the corporate reality at a distance. As a current Honda champion, Stoner may loosen up a bit next year, now he feels a bit more secure in his skin. Fun is for private owners - precious few of them around these days.

I'm a bit confused with you criticising the F1 drivers for doing what you'd like the riders to do, though. There are currently only 4 teams in F1 who pay both their drivers, the rest mostly require a contribution of at least £5 million for a seat, though there are some exceptions. There are six well-paid world champions in the top 5 teams and I guess they can afford to give us a smile, but the rest of the grid are pretty insecure, never certain of their seats in case someone comes along with more money. Their ability or their contract doesn't necessarily save them from the axe if that happens. Racing ain't what it used to be.



#15 mfd

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 18:27

I'm a bit confused with you criticising the F1 drivers for doing what you'd like the riders to do, though. There are currently only 4 teams in F1 who pay both their drivers, the rest mostly require a contribution of at least £5 million for a seat, though there are some exceptions. There are six well-paid world champions in the top 5 teams and I guess they can afford to give us a smile, but the rest of the grid are pretty insecure, never certain of their seats in case someone comes along with more money. Their ability or their contract doesn't necessarily save them from the axe if that happens. Racing ain't what it used to be.


Possibly I was confusing the two things without properly explaining either Terry.

The guys in F1 generally know it's better to be smiley & are comfortable with their situation. Others play the game because it's what is expected of them. In every case each one of them is drawing income from someone's pocket. Even those perceived as "pay drivers" extract a percentage of the amount they take to a team from a sponsor, to pay themselves a salary.

Contracts get written, then torn up & renegotiated, as in the case of one Brit this year whose option figure to remain for 2012 was agreed in 2009, yet the amount had to be hastily revised after a successful (ish) 2010-11 when there was a hint the driver might not take up his own option at the pre-agreed amount. That's why JB smiles a lot! The salaries for drivers are based on the team's expectation of what the driver can earn in prize money & then some...

This is an old example. Young German driver with little experience of F1 get's a $10m deal with top team (at the time) on the expectation he would earn that amount plus in prize money. Fits in with engine supplier too because of nationality. Team's other driver earns half this as a year one deal, acceptable at the time because his previous 3 years in other categories had been funded by this same team. Rookie consistently gets better results than the higher paid driver, which more than covers his salary in prize money, to such an extent his results are actually subsidising the wages of the other guy. Eventually he gets a salary hike by going to another top team...did I say he was Columbian?

Sorry a major digression OT :blush: but there's more here if it interests you http://www.jamesalle...f1-driver-earn/

Edited by mfd, 12 December 2011 - 18:28.


#16 exclubracer

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 19:35

Possibly I was confusing the two things without properly explaining either Terry.

The guys in F1 generally know it's better to be smiley & are comfortable with their situation. Others play the game because it's what is expected of them. In every case each one of them is drawing income from someone's pocket. Even those perceived as "pay drivers" extract a percentage of the amount they take to a team from a sponsor, to pay themselves a salary.

Contracts get written, then torn up & renegotiated, as in the case of one Brit this year whose option figure to remain for 2012 was agreed in 2009, yet the amount had to be hastily revised after a successful (ish) 2010-11 when there was a hint the driver might not take up his own option at the pre-agreed amount. That's why JB smiles a lot! The salaries for drivers are based on the team's expectation of what the driver can earn in prize money & then some...

This is an old example. Young German driver with little experience of F1 get's a $10m deal with top team (at the time) on the expectation he would earn that amount plus in prize money. Fits in with engine supplier too because of nationality. Team's other driver earns half this as a year one deal, acceptable at the time because his previous 3 years in other categories had been funded by this same team. Rookie consistently gets better results than the higher paid driver, which more than covers his salary in prize money, to such an extent his results are actually subsidising the wages of the other guy. Eventually he gets a salary hike by going to another top team...did I say he was Columbian?

Sorry a major digression OT :blush: but there's more here if it interests you http://www.jamesalle...f1-driver-earn/

Good post Mike, very informative! :up:

#17 picblanc

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 19:41

The other thing is Joe Public know most top F1 drivers if shown their photo most would recognize & probably name them, the same can not be said for Motowhatsit, if shown Stoner, Lorenzo, Pedrosa, Crutchlow photos, even Rossi most people would not know them, so for advertising purposes their value is much greater than the two wheeled chappies!
And always will be. Coz the money has run out!

#18 picblanc

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 19:43

Is the Columbian driving in NASCAR now then Mike?

#19 mfd

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 20:06

Is the Columbian driving in NASCAR now then Mike?

mmm, since he ate too many pies...or should that be mince pies? :D

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#20 RVF400

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 23:03

RC162
All I want to see is great racing. I don't care what the spec of the bike is. I don't care if it looks like a road bike. I don't care if it is two stroke or four stroke.
I don't care if it has all the gizmo's or non at all. I don't care if they all use the same tyre. I just don't care !!


Exactly! People like you want to dilute the Premier class of one off trick motorcycles into a street bike parade. LET US HAVE ONE CLASS THAT HAS THE
BEST RIDERS AND THE MOST ADVANCED MOTORCYCLES. You don't have to like it, you don't have to watch it but the bikes are going to be better than PORN!

With a screen name of RC162 I would think that you would understand this.

Edited by RVF400, 12 December 2011 - 23:04.


#21 rd500

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 12:00

great racing means diffrent things to diffrent people, sadly people now are being brainwashed into thinking its only a close race and worthy of their time when all the bikes run nose to tail from the first to the last lap which has given creed to moto 2s much overated and glorified status on the world scene.

this is where i think the enthusiast and the fan seperate

300,000 people used to go and watch ago on a far superior machine and i dont hear them complaining about how close it was - but it was the combo that was the alluring factor, the mighty mv with one of the greatest riders aboard, not the fact they were going to be disappointed after 5 laps when the gap was too big to make it "exciting"

spectacle enough for many but in the modern age this would be classed as dull, boring and no competition - just like people now have tried to detract from mick doohans titles when if you actually remember the races he didnt run away with as many as some would choose to remember.

to make racing cheap you cannot have 2 things, companys trying to bleed every last dollar out of it and the factories providing bikes which no one can buy, also with no classes of the same machines at national/club level there is nowhere the talent can mature on a shoestring budget.

#22 RC162

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 18:53

RC162
All I want to see is great racing. I don't care what the spec of the bike is. I don't care if it looks like a road bike. I don't care if it is two stroke or four stroke.
I don't care if it has all the gizmo's or non at all. I don't care if they all use the same tyre. I just don't care !!


Exactly! People like you want to dilute the Premier class of one off trick motorcycles into a street bike parade. LET US HAVE ONE CLASS THAT HAS THE
BEST RIDERS AND THE MOST ADVANCED MOTORCYCLES. You don't have to like it, you don't have to watch it but the bikes are going to be better than PORN!

With a screen name of RC162 I would think that you would understand this.


Well where do we start with this one. I would have thought that 17 rider grids was diluted enough for anyone and the reason is the price to get on that grid. You don't think more teams would be there if the costs were lower. The biggest budget now is electronics and they are pricing everyone off the grids. When big players like Suzuki and Kawasaki can't compete due to finance something is very wrong. As for the street bike parade I would like to see you in the saddle on a Moto 2 grid. I bet they could smell you in the stands ! Every lad who ever cafe raced his Norton , his Triumph or his RD tried to make it look like the bikes his, or her, hero on the track was riding. Clipons, fairings, rearsets, spannies, race seat Kenny Roberts paintwork the list goes on and on. Any factory involved at the highest level of racing has always stated that part of it is to develop improvements to pass down to their road bikes and now it has reached such a level that the bikes really do look the same. Some people bought the RD500 and the RG500 why ? It wasn't because they didn't quite look like the real thing. Moto GP is in a shit state and it is all down to the costs. You may want to see someone out in front on a megabucks machine with 8 or 9 riders on track but it would be a turn off to those who enjoy pure racing and I suspect there are more us than there are of you.

Edited by RC162, 13 December 2011 - 19:08.


#23 RVF400

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 20:29

As for the street bike parade I would like to see you in the saddle on a Moto 2 grid.


I would enjoy that but not as much as racing a vintage TZ500 or even a 90's 250.
You know a real race bike for "Pure Racing".

#24 RC162

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 20:58

As for the street bike parade I would like to see you in the saddle on a Moto 2 grid.


I would enjoy that but not as much as racing a vintage TZ500 or even a 90's 250.
You know a real race bike for "Pure Racing".


Ah now I'm glad you say that you would enjoy a ride in Moto 2. The bikes and the class can't be all bad then ! As for the TZ500 well yes a real race bike probably ridden by real men. 90's 250's ? That was only yesterday wasn't it ?

#25 RVF400

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 23:26

Ah now I'm glad you say that you would enjoy a ride in Moto 2. The bikes and the class can't be all bad then !


The main thing that riding a moto 2 bike would give me is the ability to say I have been on the moto 2 bike and a TZ500 and when I say the
500 is way more fun to ride , my opinion would cary more weight.

Give a person a choice of riding a NR500 for 10 laps or riding a moto 2 bike for 100 laps. I don't think the moto 2 bike would have many takers.

As far as watching a moto 2 race. Nope I won't waste my time.

#26 RC162

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 06:57

Ah now I'm glad you say that you would enjoy a ride in Moto 2. The bikes and the class can't be all bad then !


The main thing that riding a moto 2 bike would give me is the ability to say I have been on the moto 2 bike and a TZ500 and when I say the
500 is way more fun to ride , my opinion would cary more weight.

Give a person a choice of riding a NR500 for 10 laps or riding a moto 2 bike for 100 laps. I don't think the moto 2 bike would have many takers.

As far as watching a moto 2 race. Nope I won't waste my time.


Yes I completely agree with you that to pass opinion on something at first you need to really experience it so having been lucky enough, on those wonderful wednesday Snetterton practice days in the 70's and 80's, to ride many of the race bikes of those days for a few laps from 125 to 750 and including the TZ500 ( thank you Mr Bond ) I feel I can give at least a modest opinion.
When I was into cafe racers in the late 60's and early 70's you find yourself with lots of mates and those that I have regular contact with who watch bike racing always remark on the Moto 2 race first because it usually is a race. If you ask people what race they remember from the Barry Sheene and Kenny Roberts era most will say Silverstone 79 because it was a race betwen two riders that excited people. At the Festival of 1000 bikes this year the 71 race between Ago and Cooper was celebrated because it was an exciting race. I cannot see anyone now or in the future celebrating a race where one rider disappears into the distance.
And just one other thing wasn't Cooper on a road based machine ? How things change or do they ?