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Ricciardo VS Vergne - 2012


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#451 Brandz07

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 15:02

2 stopping ricciardo beats 3 stopping vergne by only a tenth in the end!

Dan had a good start for a change though.

Very strange watching these two race each other, almost seems like dan disadvantages himself by qualifying better and taking a less aggressive strategy. Vergne is good with the agressive strategy.


I think he beat him by 5 seconds, Vergne was a tenth behind Massa rather than Dan

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#452 Brandz07

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 15:09

I think he beat him by 5 seconds, Vergne was a tenth behind Massa rather than Dan


Ignore me, the autosport article needs correcting

#453 Kyo

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 15:11

I think he beat him by 5 seconds, Vergne was a tenth behind Massa rather than Dan

nope. Massa was 5s ahead of Daniel, not Vergne

#454 Brandz07

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 15:24

nope. Massa was 5s ahead of Daniel, not Vergne


Yeah, read above. :)

#455 Sardukar

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 03:51

I really think ricciardo is doing an amazing job in qualifying when you compare the car to everyone else, especially with regards to race pace. He also got a pretty decent start and was ahead of vergne after lap 1! :eek:

#456 marcoferrari

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:37

I really think ricciardo is doing an amazing job in qualifying when you compare the car to everyone else, especially with regards to race pace. He also got a pretty decent start and was ahead of vergne after lap 1! :eek:


Yes, but only in qualifying... Vergne is a complete match for him in race...

#457 wattoroos

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:11

Yes, but only in qualifying... Vergne is a complete match for him in race...

Not a complete match in the last 4 or so races, Ricciardo is starting to gain the upper hand but give them time, the others had two and a half to three years and either one might show to be better in the second half of the season or next year. Ricciardo just needs to fix his starts because other a crap stratey at hockenheim, he was generally pretty quick

#458 bub

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:34

Really impressed with Ricciardo so far.

#459 karne

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:51

Yes, but only in qualifying... Vergne is a complete match for him in race...


With the assistance of strategy... :rolleyes:

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#460 andresitoiniesta

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 12:04

The only thing I can say is that I don´t see any difference between these two guys and their predecessors.

#461 marcoferrari

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 12:50

Really impressed with Ricciardo so far.


18th in championship with 2 lucky points from a chaotic race in Melbourne... Really impressive! :drunk:

#462 Wingcommander

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 14:15

The only thing I can say is that I don´t see any difference between these two guys and their predecessors.


I must agree. They're pretty much just hanging on at the back of the midfield, sometimes trying a wild strategy to get into top10. It all seems just so anonymous. The biggest problem is the lack benchmark for these two. I just can't rate their performances, because to me they're both unknown quantities.

Edited by Wingcommander, 23 July 2012 - 14:15.


#463 icecream

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 23:52

yeah, gotta agree. if they'd kept one of the last two on, we'd know better where one of the current two is.
ricciardo is clearly dominating in quali, but in the race its hard to say.

#464 Sardukar

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 00:00

18th in championship with 2 lucky points from a chaotic race in Melbourne... Really impressive! :drunk:


and you pretty much just blew any credibility you had left, good work

#465 lbennie

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 00:01

Ricciardo is looking very quick, routinely beating much faster cars on saturday (germany was another example of this),but in the race it's a lot harder to hide a car's deficiencies.

vergne just needs more time (and they will give it to him)

Edited by lbennie, 24 July 2012 - 00:02.


#466 Sardukar

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 00:06

they are both getting 2 years, so its definitely enough time for both of them to impress.

#467 Alfisti

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 01:37

Said it when they announced it, they should have kept Alguasari and had Vergne wait a year. We have no benchmark, very frustrating.

Dan appears to be on a bit of a roll, I think thats 4 or 5 races in a row where he has qualified better and finished in front, though just by a small margin.

#468 marcoferrari

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 13:00

Said it when they announced it, they should have kept Alguasari and had Vergne wait a year. We have no benchmark, very frustrating.

Dan appears to be on a bit of a roll, I think thats 4 or 5 races in a row where he has qualified better and finished in front, though just by a small margin.


:up:

#469 marcoferrari

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 13:12

and you pretty much just blew any credibility you had left, good work


Said who? Who are you to say who is and isn t credible here on this board? Ricciardo was only 12th on 57th lap... He just benefited from sudden problems of two drivers, you can check that out... So yes, he just lucked into the points... And everywhere else, he wasn t even in a running for them... In Valencia he just didn t pit at the time when others did, that s why he was so high on the order... Later he dropped into a place, where he belonged... The truth is both current drivers are invisible in races, and they are not living to their hype...

#470 goingthedistance

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 17:03

Dan keeps getting the poorer strategy and lately has been coming out on top anyway. Marko won't be happy, Vergne is his favourite.

Edited by goingthedistance, 24 July 2012 - 17:03.


#471 Sardukar

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 03:00

Said who? Who are you to say who is and isn t credible here on this board? Ricciardo was only 12th on 57th lap... He just benefited from sudden problems of two drivers, you can check that out... So yes, he just lucked into the points... And everywhere else, he wasn t even in a running for them... In Valencia he just didn t pit at the time when others did, that s why he was so high on the order... Later he dropped into a place, where he belonged... The truth is both current drivers are invisible in races, and they are not living to their hype...


and how much effort did it take to make that post? you should have said that in the first place rather than making smart ass posts like you were previously. If you have an opinion then express it rather than coming off as a ****.

But i will point out that DR in aus actually made a bunch of great passes on the last lap, that was not luck that was skill. And in valencia he was on the exact same strategy as webber and schumacher and was infront of them before the safety car.

#472 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 04:46

The only thing I can say is that I don´t see any difference between these two guys and their predecessors.

:up: :up:

Why not have 1 x F1 veteran (e.g., Barrichello, Heidfeld, Trulli ??) vs 1 x young star. Much better for comparison purposes.

The former might not have the pace any more (if they ever did...) but at least they will (probably) be able to sort the car more quickly in testing, giving the rookie the best chance to drive a well sorted car IMO.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 25 July 2012 - 04:47.


#473 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 04:50

18th in championship with 2 lucky points from a chaotic race in Melbourne... Really impressive! :drunk:

DR obviously knows how to drive an F1 car... Seems to be quite smooth... let the car do the hard work, it's not a bad way.

JEV seems to be more aggressive but does not produce any qually pace, a bit like Senna (Bruno that is). It's not a good sign to be pushing hard but lapping slow.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 25 July 2012 - 06:55.


#474 slideways

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 04:53

:up: :up:

Why not have 1 x F1 veteran (e.g., Barrichello, Heidfeld, Trulli ??) vs 1 x young star. Much better for comparison purposes.

The former might not have the pace any more (if they ever did...) but at least they will (probably) be able to sort the car more quickly in testing, giving the rookie the best chance to drive a well sorted car IMO.


My take on it is that the purpose of the team was to provide juniors with seat time, it's expensive to keep potentials in junior categories every year, and Red Bull doesn't actually want STR to progress too far up the grid.

Also, the team has been unofficially for sale for like 3 seasons now.

Edited by slideways, 25 July 2012 - 04:54.


#475 wattoroos

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 07:12

Said who? Who are you to say who is and isn t credible here on this board? Ricciardo was only 12th on 57th lap... He just benefited from sudden problems of two drivers, you can check that out... So yes, he just lucked into the points... And everywhere else, he wasn t even in a running for them... In Valencia he just didn t pit at the time when others did, that s why he was so high on the order... Later he dropped into a place, where he belonged... The truth is both current drivers are invisible in races, and they are not living to their hype...

In Aus he had to pit after lp 1 and come from a long way behind and in valencia he didnt pit when everyone else did because vergne was in the box after his incident with kovalainen.

#476 Sardukar

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 07:33

They probably have access to vettel and webbers telemetry anyway and even though the cars are different, can probably come to a pretty good conclusion just by comparison. So even though its hard for us to judge them, i'm pretty sure the teams know whats up.

#477 GhostR

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 09:14

18th in championship with 2 lucky points from a chaotic race in Melbourne... Really impressive! :drunk:

:rolleyes:

Maybe at some point this year you'll wake up and realise the car has gone backwards relative to the other midfield teams. That STR car isn't good enough to score regular points right now, no matter how good the drivers might be.

#478 wattoroos

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:16

:rolleyes:

Maybe at some point this year you'll wake up and realise the car has gone backwards relative to the other midfield teams. That STR car isn't good enough to score regular points right now, no matter how good the drivers might be.

Thats why I think it would have been better to keep at least one of the drivers this year and line them up alongside vergne or ricciardo, otherwise its just someones word against anothers, but I do agree with you. I'm pretty sure the people that matter know how good/bad they are going and ultimately they are the oes who make the decision

#479 marcoferrari

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 12:16

and how much effort did it take to make that post? you should have said that in the first place rather than making smart ass posts like you were previously. If you have an opinion then express it rather than coming off as a ****.

But i will point out that DR in aus actually made a bunch of great passes on the last lap, that was not luck that was skill. And in valencia he was on the exact same strategy as webber and schumacher and was infront of them before the safety car.


Number of passes? Maldonado out crashing, Rosberg needed to slow down with a damaged car... He passed only his teammate... And talking about skills, what is he doing at the beginning of a grandprix? His starts are teribble...

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#480 marcoferrari

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 12:21

:rolleyes:

Maybe at some point this year you'll wake up and realise the car has gone backwards relative to the other midfield teams. That STR car isn't good enough to score regular points right now, no matter how good the drivers might be.


And why they have gone backwards? Mr. Horner said before the season they have the most promising, entertaining, exciting and dont know what else pairing in Formula One... They should be also technically skilled so that means also joining the developement process in some way...

Edited by marcoferrari, 25 July 2012 - 12:21.


#481 marcoferrari

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 12:23

They probably have access to vettel and webbers telemetry anyway and even though the cars are different, can probably come to a pretty good conclusion just by comparison. So even though its hard for us to judge them, i'm pretty sure the teams know whats up.


If the teams would have always know, there will be only smilling faces in the paddock and for example no driver changes in the middle season...

#482 bub

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 14:14

18th in championship with 2 lucky points from a chaotic race in Melbourne... Really impressive! :drunk:



You can only do what the car will allow you. You can only really judge a driver v his team mate and Ricciardo's doing pretty well against Vergne so far.

#483 marcoferrari

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 15:06

You can only do what the car will allow you. You can only really judge a driver v his team mate and Ricciardo's doing pretty well against Vergne so far.


17th Vergne - 4pts
18th Ricciardo - 2pts

5:5 in races

Only area where is Ricciardo actually better is qualifying...

#484 InvertedLift

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 15:51

17th Vergne - 4pts
18th Ricciardo - 2pts

5:5 in races

Only area where is Ricciardo actually better is qualifying...


So you're saying smashing your team mate in one aspect and even in the others isn't "doing pretty well"?

Also Ricciardo has finished ahead in the last 4 races so it seems he is improving overall vs Vergne.

#485 GhostR

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 20:47

And why they have gone backwards? Mr. Horner said before the season they have the most promising, entertaining, exciting and dont know what else pairing in Formula One... They should be also technically skilled so that means also joining the developement process in some way...

I think when the current Ascanelli situation shakes out, we'll probably discover that the team believes that poor technical direction is at the root of their problems this season. They didn't hesitate to come out and say they let both of last year's drivers go for the same reason: the telemetry was showing that they weren't maximising the potential of the car consistently enough. They won't hesitate (once it all shakes out) to make it clear why Ascanelli is gone either, IMO.

#486 williams96

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 04:44

17th Vergne - 4pts
18th Ricciardo - 2pts

5:5 in races

Only area where is Ricciardo actually better is qualifying...


Considering how they always seem to be on different strategies it is difficult to tell in the races who is doing better without looking beyond the points and finishing positions (if you are actually interested in judging their skill which the team will be).

"Only"? There's qualifying and the race. Hardly a long list...

#487 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 04:58

I think when the current Ascanelli situation shakes out, we'll probably discover that the team believes that poor technical direction is at the root of their problems this season. They didn't hesitate to come out and say they let both of last year's drivers go for the same reason: the telemetry was showing that they weren't maximising the potential of the car consistently enough. They won't hesitate (once it all shakes out) to make it clear why Ascanelli is gone either, IMO.

It wouldn't be Red Bull cutting corners by not having them drive more f1-like cars on similar Pirellis in GP2 for two seasons
Message to Red Bull: "Think McFly think"

Red Bull are ridiculous really aren't they? They could easily use a spare/old transporter to run a GP2 team out of an outbuilding of Toro Rosso for relatively little cost (the whole season might only cost as much as 5 bare bones Toro Rosso tubs for example!). Are they cheapskates or scared their junior superstars will look bad in Gp2, as Kobayashi did if not for the lucky break into f1...

The car might not be that bad really (look how good the Williams looks when not held back by vastly inferior Cosworth EBD technology, I doubt the previous car was actually soo bad really), terrible decision to not retain an experienced and skilful technical director... having better drivers who could regularly find an extra 3-4 tenths would lift them into contention for points already I think.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 26 July 2012 - 04:59.


#488 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 05:02

Only area where is Ricciardo actually better is qualifying...

Unless Vergne wants to be the next Wurz or Liuzzi (to a lesser extent Heidfeld, who was a reasonable qualifier and pole winner actually) then qualifying is important ;)

There is some place for good racers in f1, but f1 fanatics often overlook the strong race drives and quickly assume that a Wurz or Liuzzi is merely "slow" and should be replaced by a Hulkenberg or di Resta etc regardless of how many great race point scores the former acheives!

Similarly F1 fanatics will assume that Raikkonen is far better than Heidfeld, even though Heidfeld also scored podium in Lotus-Renault liveried car and such results by Heidfeld were considered so awful he had to be dumped mid-season!

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 26 July 2012 - 05:05.


#489 Slowinfastout

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 05:06

I think the GP2/FR3.5 thing is really down to choice, plus Christian Horner owns the Arden Gp2 team so it's not like they are clueless about the whole thing.

As for the topic I wouldn't bet a huge amount against Vergne in the long run, 5 mins around him and the lasting impression you'll get is that this is no ordinary 22 yrs old kid..

#490 marcoferrari

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 08:25

I think when the current Ascanelli situation shakes out, we'll probably discover that the team believes that poor technical direction is at the root of their problems this season. They didn't hesitate to come out and say they let both of last year's drivers go for the same reason: the telemetry was showing that they weren't maximising the potential of the car consistently enough. They won't hesitate (once it all shakes out) to make it clear why Ascanelli is gone either, IMO.


And the telemetry data of these two are so excellent, or what? The most important thing is still results and they are not coming in races from neither Ricciardo or Vergne... Ricciardo has probably the worst starts in the grid loosing a lot of ground in the first lap... He makes things more complicated by himself...

#491 marcoferrari

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 08:27

Considering how they always seem to be on different strategies it is difficult to tell in the races who is doing better without looking beyond the points and finishing positions (if you are actually interested in judging their skill which the team will be).

"Only"? There's qualifying and the race. Hardly a long list...


But what is more important?

#492 williams96

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 08:45

But what is more important?


Well according to you they are equal in the races so that would make qualifying very important as it's what separating them so clearly. Particularly when they're always on different strategies making it difficult to compare race results.

I have a suspicion you decided that neither were good enough before they even turned a wheel though.

#493 marcoferrari

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 09:15

Well according to you they are equal in the races so that would make qualifying very important as it's what separating them so clearly. Particularly when they're always on different strategies making it difficult to compare race results.

I have a suspicion you decided that neither were good enough before they even turned a wheel though.


Same could be said about some users here when it comes to Buemi or Alguersuari...  ;)

#494 GhostR

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 12:06

Same could be said about some users here when it comes to Buemi or Alguersuari... ;)

Nah, we had 3 years to judge them (as did STR) and they were found to be wanting.

Look: we all know you're very disappointed that Jaime was let go. Taking that out on the two new drivers is a really petty thing to do, though. It's the team (Tost & Marko specifically) you should be directing it against.

Given the team (Tost and Marko) hasn't hesitated to trash the careers and reputations of their drivers the moment they felt they had even a small amount of cause to do so, I think the current situation where neither driver is apparently being trashed and instead the tech team is being put under pressure is quite telling. Makes me wonder if the feedback from the drivers is being ignored in favour of what the tech team is putting together.

#495 InvertedLift

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 13:39

Given the team (Tost and Marko) hasn't hesitated to trash the careers and reputations of their drivers the moment they felt they had even a small amount of cause to do so, I think the current situation where neither driver is apparently being trashed and instead the tech team is being put under pressure is quite telling.


I remember hearing somewhere that Vergne was rated extremely highly by those at Carlin, a team who saw close up Rosberg, Kubica and Vettel. And Ricciardo is doing reasonably well against him too.

Pretty much all measures seem to indicate that the drivers are getting a reasonable amount out of the car. Just that regular points finishes aren't there to be had.

#496 bub

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 20:27

Look: we all know you're very disappointed that Jaime was let go. Taking that out on the two new drivers is a really petty thing to do, though. It's the team (Tost & Marko specifically) you should be directing it against.


:up:



#497 marcoferrari

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 10:33

Nah, we had 3 years to judge them (as did STR) and they were found to be wanting.

Look: we all know you're very disappointed that Jaime was let go. Taking that out on the two new drivers is a really petty thing to do, though. It's the team (Tost & Marko specifically) you should be directing it against.

Given the team (Tost and Marko) hasn't hesitated to trash the careers and reputations of their drivers the moment they felt they had even a small amount of cause to do so, I think the current situation where neither driver is apparently being trashed and instead the tech team is being put under pressure is quite telling. Makes me wonder if the feedback from the drivers is being ignored in favour of what the tech team is putting together.


?

I am just speaking about what I see... At the moment both current STR drivers DID NOT do anything special or extraordinary compared to the previous ones... They were described "as the next best thing since"... , so I am expecting something... Which is not coming... Btw. Buemi has already achieved a 7th and 8th place in race after 10 weekends... So at the moment they are just not living up their hype...

Edited by marcoferrari, 28 July 2012 - 10:34.


#498 Sardukar

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 10:57

Actually Ricciardo has better stats than vettel in his first 1/2 season in F1 (and against the same team mate).

#499 marcoferrari

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 11:21

Actually Ricciardo has better stats than vettel in his first 1/2 season in F1 (and against the same team mate).


Really? I can t remember him finishing 4th in race... What about you?

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#500 Wingcommander

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 11:25

Btw. Buemi has already achieved a 7th and 8th place in race after 10 weekends... So at the moment they are just not living up their hype...


That kind of comparison is absolutely useless.