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Ricciardo VS Vergne - 2012


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#501 krapmeister

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 11:25



Some fish to go with that chip on your shoulder? :lol:

Edited by krapmeister, 28 July 2012 - 11:26.


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#502 marcoferrari

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 11:29



Some fish to go with that chip on your shoulder? :lol:
[/quote]

Don t understand your joke...:) Maybe it s better so...:D

#503 marcoferrari

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 11:31

That kind of comparison is absolutely useless.


Every comparison or statistics is useless in some way... :)

Edited by marcoferrari, 28 July 2012 - 11:31.


#504 Wingcommander

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 11:36

Every comparison or statistics is useless in some way... :)


Sure, but on pure uselessness this one goes to the infinity and beyond. :up:


#505 Sardukar

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 06:55

Really? I can t remember him finishing 4th in race... What about you?


Vettel - Liuzzi 2007

Race 2 - 5 28%
Qual 3 - 4 42%

Ricciardo - Liuzzi 2011

Race 7 - 3 70%
Qual 4 - 6 40%

Ricciardos rookie stats are better than vettels and they are even against the same team mate. How they perform relative to their team mate is more important than the overall result as its dictated less by car performance. I also think Vergne is doing an impressive job so far with a 5-5 result against ricciardo, which is better than both of them (ignoring qual ofcourse).

Back on topic, decent effort by vergne to get into Q2. I found it funny that they didn't let Ricciardo do another lapped time as he was capable of 1/2 second quicker which would have knocked out a certain RBR driver.... :kiss:

#506 marcoferrari

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 09:27

Vettel - Liuzzi 2007

Race 2 - 5 28%
Qual 3 - 4 42%

Ricciardo - Liuzzi 2011

Race 7 - 3 70%
Qual 4 - 6 40%

Ricciardos rookie stats are better than vettels and they are even against the same team mate. How they perform relative to their team mate is more important than the overall result as its dictated less by car performance. I also think Vergne is doing an impressive job so far with a 5-5 result against ricciardo, which is better than both of them (ignoring qual ofcourse).

Back on topic, decent effort by vergne to get into Q2. I found it funny that they didn't let Ricciardo do another lapped time as he was capable of 1/2 second quicker which would have knocked out a certain RBR driver.... :kiss:


I think Liuzzi is a very poor benchmark to be compared to... But ok, we can take it also in another way... If you think he is a proper benchmark, than Adrian Sutil had been doing even better than Vettel, sometimes being even over 1 second quicker then Liuzzi (Spa, Istanbul for example)... :) Their quali battle finished 19:4 for Sutil... :)

#507 marcoferrari

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 09:27

Sure, but on pure uselessness this one goes to the infinity and beyond. :up:


Then why are you talking about it? :)

#508 karne

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 10:12

Back on topic, decent effort by vergne to get into Q2. I found it funny that they didn't let Ricciardo do another lapped time as he was capable of 1/2 second quicker which would have knocked out a certain RBR driver.... :kiss:


I was absolutely fuming when they didn't let him go back out. Why the hell would you deliberately knock out your best qualifying driver? Dan was capable of a much higher grid slot than Vergne achieved.

#509 marcoferrari

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 10:38

I was absolutely fuming when they didn't let him go back out. Why the hell would you deliberately knock out your best qualifying driver? Dan was capable of a much higher grid slot than Vergne achieved.


I think the team have sent both drivers with low fuel to make a single flying lap... This time Vergne did his job, Ricciardo not...

#510 wattoroos

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 10:47

I think the team have sent both drivers with low fuel to make a single flying lap... This time Vergne did his job, Ricciardo not...

Did you watch quali? Ricciardo could have got one more lap, whether he could beat vergne is another thing but he would have improved. Hopefully he doesnt stuff up his start, he always looks tentative going into the first corner. Hopefully a troule free race for both and with the rain (possibililty) maybe some lucky points

#511 goldenboy

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 14:10

what a crappy car....

#512 goingthedistance

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:50

Good race from Daniel yesterday to finish ahead despite the quali yip, had a good lead over Vergne at the end of the race before the latter decided to go to a 3 stopper, that still didn't work and Daniel finished a good chunk in front. Car is a dog though.


#513 krapmeister

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:17

and a great start from Dan, making up a couple of spots and ahead of Vergne after the first lap! :up:

#514 Slowinfastout

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:27

Vergne was right with Ricciardo at lap 63, then he had to make a 4th stop because his car was overheating..

http://www.f1fanatic...prix-lap-chart/

remove everyone except the STR drivers ,and then you can go back to your normally scheduled program :)

#515 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:30

Really? I can t remember him finishing 4th in race... What about you?

DR vs VL Hispania superbattle eh... Dr. Marko is that you? Nice of you to join us on the Autosport forum. :)

#516 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:41

I think Liuzzi is a very poor benchmark to be compared to...

If Liuzzi was so awful who come future two times wdc was outqualified 4 to 3 and outraced too?

Wouldn't you expect an utter drubbing by the champ-to-be as Alonso dished out to Marques (to be fair Minardi for first and second driver were not of equivalent spec)?

#517 GhostR

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:46

Vergne was right with Ricciardo at lap 63, then he had to make a 4th stop because his car was overheating..

http://www.f1fanatic...prix-lap-chart/

remove everyone except the STR drivers ,and then you can go back to your normally scheduled program :)

Looks to me that Ricciardo had Vergne covered for the entire race barring a 3 lap period starting lap 55 where he lost chunks of time. Anyone know what happened there? Was Ricciardo stuck behind someone? Back to the bad old days of going too slow when being blue flagged?

#518 Slowinfastout

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:55

Looks to me that Ricciardo had Vergne covered for the entire race barring a 3 lap period starting lap 55 where he lost chunks of time. Anyone know what happened there? Was Ricciardo stuck behind someone? Back to the bad old days of going too slow when being blue flagged?


Yes he had him covered, but it was not the debacle people here make it out to be.. add Kobayashi to the graph and you'll see Vergne was spot-on with his post-race comments.

The bias in this thread is pretty evident, it pisses me off a bit so I'll make it a duty to keep things more honest whenever possible.

#519 krapmeister

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 13:06

Looks to me that Ricciardo had Vergne covered for the entire race barring a 3 lap period starting lap 55 where he lost chunks of time. Anyone know what happened there? Was Ricciardo stuck behind someone? Back to the bad old days of going too slow when being blue flagged?


Yeah I was wondering about that too - seemed like he lost a heap of time roundabout the time he was being lapped...

Yes he had him covered, but it was not the debacle people here make it out to be.. add Kobayashi to the graph and you'll see Vergne was spot-on with his post-race comments.

The bias in this thread is pretty evident, it pisses me off a bit so I'll make it a duty to keep things more honest whenever possible.


Eh? What debacle are people making it out to be? I don't think anyone has said anything over the top have they?

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#520 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 13:17

What bias?

#521 Slowinfastout

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 13:22

Nevermind, I've carefully considered it again and there is no bias.

#522 marcoferrari

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 13:28

DR vs VL Hispania superbattle eh... Dr. Marko is that you? Nice of you to join us on the Autosport forum. :)


No, I am not Dr. Marko. Thank god! :)

#523 krapmeister

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 13:46

Nevermind, I've carefully considered it again and there is no bias.


Hmmmm... my sarcasm detector keeps beeping at me...

Anyway, no doubt there have been some over the top statements made throughout this thread - from all sides - but didn't think anything had been made wrt to last race?

#524 goingthedistance

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 14:04

Yes he had him covered, but it was not the debacle people here make it out to be.. add Kobayashi to the graph and you'll see Vergne was spot-on with his post-race comments.

The bias in this thread is pretty evident, it pisses me off a bit so I'll make it a duty to keep things more honest whenever possible.


Ricciardo had a better race than Vergne, full stop, period whatever. Better start, better pace. Not sure what you think you are adding there - wasn't Vergne something like 12 seconds behind Ricciardo before he made his additional stop? Pretty uninspiring. I may be mis-remembering the live timing but it was a fair gap.

I like JEV, however he has pretty unimpressive to date. I expected more from him. To date Daniel has been solid but unspectacular, Vergne below par IMO.

Edited by goingthedistance, 30 July 2012 - 14:04.


#525 Slowinfastout

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 14:25

If you're not going to look at the evidence then there's no point arguing.

#526 goingthedistance

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 15:04

If you're not going to look at the evidence then there's no point arguing.


I looked at the evidence during the race. Having reviewed the race timing on my Soft Pauer app just now it seems that after both drivers had pitted 3 times (JEV on lap 46, RIC on lap 47) Vergne was 12.5 seconds behind Ricciardo. He then for whatever reason managed to whittle that gap right down until he made his 4th stop. Not sure what happened to Daniel in that stint, I suspect it had a lot to do with the fact he spent that period being lapped by the top cars. Edited to add that after checking the blue flag warnings, Daniel did indeed lose most of his time attempting to get out of the way, on some laps losing 3 or so seconds to Vergne.

So Daniel quicker in clean air all race, but still has issues under blue flags.

Edited by goingthedistance, 30 July 2012 - 15:10.


#527 Slowinfastout

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 15:15

Thing is without the unscheduled stop Vergne was going to be immediately behind Ricciardo or maybe even ahead, but unlikely since it's too hard to pass.

Ricciardo possibly lost the blue flag lottery, and Vergne lost the lap 1 lottery, but fact is the race pace was quite similar.

So Daniel quicker in clean air all race, but still has issues under blue flags.


genuine facepalm here..

Edited by Slowinfastout, 30 July 2012 - 15:17.


#528 goingthedistance

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 15:20

On what grounds is that "facepalm" (and is it possible for you to debate without resorting to insults?)

Sure Vergne was quicker in the final stint, but he had fresh tyres, you cannot compare that pace. After what should have been their final stop Ricciardo was 12 seconds up!

Vergne essentially had what Vettel had, a stop that allowed him to race at significantly quicker pace due to fresh tyres but that was unlikely to get him anywhere due to the difficulty overtaking at the Hungaroring.

Edited by goingthedistance, 30 July 2012 - 15:23.


#529 Slowinfastout

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 15:23

Ok, two questions..

How many pit stops you think both drivers did?

..and when was it that Vergne had fresh tyres when Ricciardo didn't?

I'm gonna leave you with that because you're the personification of what I said earlier about bias.

#530 goingthedistance

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 15:35

What a patronising poster you are.

Vergne did 4 stops, Ricciardo did 3. They pitted for their 3rd stop a lap apart, after which Ricciardo was 12.5 seconds ahead of Vergne.

Vergne obliterated that margin after the third stop and then had fresher tyres in the final stint as he pitted again on lap 63. Daniel stated that he overdid the tyre conservation early in his stint, no doubt knowing it was difficult to overtake here so you may as well play the long game and be sure the tyres are in good shape at the end, this coupled with a greater number of blue flags explains the differential. And yes perhaps Vergne was genuinely quicker at this stage of the race but who could be sure? Who knows what Daniel was dealing with in his cockpit? How do you know that Vergne did not take too much out of the tyres in catching up to Daniel before his 4th pit stop to be unable to overtake him anyway?

Post-race quote from Daniel:

We managed to improve the car as the race went on, but for the last stint on the Mediums, it took a while for the tyres to work and maybe my set-up was too conservative for the start of the stint, as we had plenty of pace left at the end of it.


This again fits with the timing as Daniel's last few laps were a drastic improvement, Vergne was a bit quicker but he was on fresher tyres having only pitted a few laps before the end. Nonetheless with the additional pitstop he ended up 20 seconds or so down the road.

As for bias, an unbiased poster does not exist, we all come at things from one angle or another, for whatever reason. From the fact you are ignoring the first 46 laps of the race I would argue that you are showing yours.

Edited by goingthedistance, 30 July 2012 - 15:51.


#531 Slowinfastout

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 15:50

Vergne did 4 stops, Ricciardo did 3. They pitted for their 3rd stop a lap apart, after which Ricciardo was 12.5 seconds ahead of Vergne.


I'm not patronizing, I posted a link which explained everything, and since then you've been avoiding it.

Here's how I see it.

-After the position shuffling on lap 1, in which Ricciardo ended up ahead of Vergne, the first stint was pretty much identical for both drivers in terms of pace.

-During the second stint, Kobayashi sandwhiched himself between the two and held back Vergne until they basically got him out of there with a shorter stint.

-On the third stint the gap between Ricciardo and Vergned remained consistent at around 6-7 seconds.

-then after the third pitstop (where both drivers changed tyres), Vergne mysteriously lost another 7 seconds (blue flags?), and then Vergne ended up right behind Ricciardo after his own blue flag moment.

http://www.f1fanatic...prix-lap-chart/

I don't even count Vergne's 5th stint after lap 63 because it is irrelevant.

Edited by Slowinfastout, 30 July 2012 - 15:52.


#532 goingthedistance

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 16:02

The link you posted is a crude analysis versus reliving the race on the Soft Pauer application, complete with blue flag indicators and GPS car tracking. Looking through the timing information it is evident that whilst lap times were close at the start of the first stint, Ricciardo was stronger at the back end of the first stint, and indeed all stints, indicating better tyre conservation. Ricciardo was also consistently a few tenths quicker throughout the second and third stints.

#533 Slowinfastout

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 16:08

If Ricciardo was consistently a few tenths faster the gap wouldn't remain consistent over a whole stint.

This superior race pace you speak of simply didn't exist in that race.

I've nothing more to say about it really, we could do this lap by lap but you'd still bring up stuff like 'Who knows what Daniel was dealing with in his cockpit?'

Edited by Slowinfastout, 30 July 2012 - 16:13.


#534 goingthedistance

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 16:24

Coming out of the first pit stop Ricciardo is 1.6 seconds ahead. At the end of that second stint he is 8.5 ahead of Vergne who is 1.9 seconds behind Kobayashi. Despite a significant undercut (Vergne pits 4 laps earlier) he is 7.3 seconds behind Ricciardo after his second stop. When he pitted again he was 6.9 seconds behind Ricciardo, so yes keeping pace but also coming in hard then dropping off badly at the end of the stint, just as we see in the final stint. Honestly looking at the data I wouldn't be surprised if Vergne's last stop was motivated predominantly by tyre wear not just the rubber in air-intake issue.

I think yes you are correct that Vergne was held up early in the second stint by Kobayashi, but not towards the end of it when the faster Sauber on more durable tyres started to pull away, as did Ricciardo on the same tyres.

For mine Ricciardo beat Vergne through a superior start and superior tyre conservation. These days it is difficult to be sure on differential pace due to drivers holding back to keep the tyres in okay shape, so it is dangerous to impute too much, especially at the end of races when drivers are guessing as to how much distance is left in their Pirellis! Judging relative pace on the final stint is very questionable IMO.

Edited by goingthedistance, 30 July 2012 - 16:28.


#535 goingthedistance

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 16:26

I've nothing more to say about it really, we could do this lap by lap but you'd still bring up stuff like 'Who knows what Daniel was dealing with in his cockpit?'


What I meant by that is that you don't know what technical problems either are facing in total. Simply put you cannot know it all, and pretending to do so is plain silly.


#536 lbennie

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 00:00

well, vergne is starting to get consistently beaten now, in both q and race.

just wish the car was better, at the moment they're in no mans land between the caterhams and everyone else, even when daniel has much more performance they still finish behind one another.

#537 danstheman

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 01:57

This is the best site to compare each lap time and clearly shows the gap and pit stops etc.

http://en.mclarenf-1.....n-Eric Vergne

I think it shows that their pace was quite even at the start of stints but that Dan preserved his tyres better and was able to pull away towards the end of his stints. However, as Vergne always pitted first he was able to peg back some time on the undercut.

Dan lots about 6-7 secs on blue flags at the end, which brought the gap back from 12 secs at the last pit stop. And yes Vergne was faster in the last stint.

I'm not sure why they pitted Dan on Lap 47 when he just did a 1:27.1, which was no different to his pace on the medium tyres anyway. I think he could have lasted a few more laps and then had fresher tyres to go faster on those mediums. They might have pitted him to keep him ahead of Hamilton, but that didn't work anyway...

Put simply, Dan has finished in front in the last 5 races and is now ahead 6-5 in races and 9-2 in qualy.

#538 Sardukar

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 02:47

I expected vergne, as a rookie, to come out slower this season then improve. But its been the other way around and Ricciardo seems to be much smarter and more confident with his starts now. Its just a shame that the car is absolutely no where.

#539 goingthedistance

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 09:07

This is the best site to compare each lap time and clearly shows the gap and pit stops etc.

http://en.mclarenf-1.....n-Eric Vergne

I think it shows that their pace was quite even at the start of stints but that Dan preserved his tyres better and was able to pull away towards the end of his stints. However, as Vergne always pitted first he was able to peg back some time on the undercut.

Dan lots about 6-7 secs on blue flags at the end, which brought the gap back from 12 secs at the last pit stop. And yes Vergne was faster in the last stint.

I'm not sure why they pitted Dan on Lap 47 when he just did a 1:27.1, which was no different to his pace on the medium tyres anyway. I think he could have lasted a few more laps and then had fresher tyres to go faster on those mediums. They might have pitted him to keep him ahead of Hamilton, but that didn't work anyway...

Put simply, Dan has finished in front in the last 5 races and is now ahead 6-5 in races and 9-2 in qualy.


Yeah the interesting thing that came out of the lap analysis is that Vergne appears to be much harder on the tyres. Autosport mention it in their driver reviews for Hungary too. It's a pattern I've noticed throughout the year between the two, as a result Vergne is often put on the strategy that requires another stop. I'm not sure if really needed a fourth stop at this race, but there is a clear trend of eating up the tyres too fast and then dropping off. Reminds me a bit of Webber last year, before he learnt he couldn't go 100% all the time anymore.

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#540 Viryfan

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 14:14

Great race for Vergne!!

#541 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 14:29

Great race for Vergne!!


Honestly i thought Ricciardo was more impressive today. Was mixing it with the big guns and was unlucky Rosberg pushed him off track and allowed Vergne to pass them both. Ricciardo deserved 8th imo.

#542 Viryfan

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 14:31

Honestly i thought Ricciardo was more impressive today. Was mixing it with the big guns and was unlucky Rosberg pushed him off track and allowed Vergne to pass them both. Ricciardo deserved 8th imo.


JEV was faster in qualy, and JEV overtook Daniel then Nico.

#543 Viryfan

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 14:31

Honestly i thought Ricciardo was more impressive today. Was mixing it with the big guns and was unlucky Rosberg pushed him off track and allowed Vergne to pass them both. Ricciardo deserved 8th imo.


JEV was faster in qualy, and JEV overtook Daniel then Nico.

#544 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 11:20

Great race for Vergne!!

Only beat Ricciardio by about 3 seconds and 1 place though.

Given the awful qually balance sheet it is not looking good for Vergne to be claiming he is better than Webber. Neither is DR impressing sufficiently of course.

My impression is that DR is more comfortable racing an F1 car. Happy to stroke the car along, and easily able to find the limit (or within a tenth of it) without needing to slide all over the place to do so. Given that he was able to beat the experienced Liuzzi is a good sign, as Vettel in a similar rookie position was not far ahead of Liuzzi by any means.

Vergne has a more aggressive style. He could still mature to become the next Hakkinen, on the other hand he could be the next Sato or Pizzonia etc. I'm sure they tried hard and were very impressive in F3, but they were never tier two let alone tier one F1 drivers!

#545 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 23:53

Danny Ric gets the qualifying point in Monza. :up: :up:

Around a 1.5 to 2 tenth advantage.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 08 September 2012 - 23:53.


#546 wattoroos

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 07:58

Danny Ric gets the qualifying point in Monza. :up: :up:

Around a 1.5 to 2 tenth advantage.

Qualifying hasn't been a problem for him lately, he needs to do better in the races

#547 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 09:48

Qualifying hasn't been a problem for him lately, he needs to do better in the races

Does tend to suggest that JEV is the one who could be dropped from F1 if another place is required for another new Red Bull junior driver, for a forthcoming race season.

Of course the pair might both be dropped.

#548 marcoferrari

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 14:55

Only beat Ricciardio by about 3 seconds and 1 place though.

Given the awful qually balance sheet it is not looking good for Vergne to be claiming he is better than Webber. Neither is DR impressing sufficiently of course.

My impression is that DR is more comfortable racing an F1 car. Happy to stroke the car along, and easily able to find the limit (or within a tenth of it) without needing to slide all over the place to do so. Given that he was able to beat the experienced Liuzzi is a good sign, as Vettel in a similar rookie position was not far ahead of Liuzzi by any means.

Vergne has a more aggressive style. He could still mature to become the next Hakkinen, on the other hand he could be the next Sato or Pizzonia etc. I'm sure they tried hard and were very impressive in F3, but they were never tier two let alone tier one F1 drivers!


Does it indicate something? Liuzzi is a mediocre benchmark to be compared with... For example Sutil beat Liuzzi even more comfortable then Vettel, running about 1 second faster at some tracks... Btw. why Ricciardo lost his 10th place at the end to Senna and Maldonado?

#549 BCM

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 15:01

Fuel pickup problem in the Parabolics on the last lap. Pretty bad luck.

#550 goldenboy

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 16:28

good strategy for danny today. Nice drive, had vergne in his pocket most of the weekend. I was sat at the first chicaine where vergne went flying, looked painful. Commentators mentioned probs broken suspension as it waqs a strange looking crash, but he was way back anyways.