Jump to content


Photo

Ricciardo VS Vergne - 2012


  • Please log in to reply
762 replies to this topic

#601 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 26,018 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:29

In the end, points are often the only way to judge a driver. JEV has scored more points than Ricciardo and I expect it to continue.


Um no. just no.

Advertisement

#602 lbennie

lbennie
  • Member

  • 1,554 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:35

In the end, points are often the only way to judge a driver. JEV has scored more points than Ricciardo and I expect it to continue.


So, you are saying there is no way to compare drivers if neither one scores any points? (caterham, marussia, hispania) :lol:



#603 goldenboy

goldenboy
  • Member

  • 3,400 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:38

:lol: I'd just leave it guys. You won't get much of a balanced view.

#604 krapmeister

krapmeister
  • Member

  • 5,387 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:59

In the end, points are often the only way to judge a driver. JEV has scored more points than Ricciardo and I expect it to continue.


:drunk:

#605 Ravenak

Ravenak
  • Member

  • 939 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 12 October 2012 - 04:03

My point is: how you remember a driver, it's with his points count. How you compare drivers ultimately: points. How teams are ranked and get their bonus prizes: points.

Of course, the teams also sees how good & fast a driver is, how he performs and how he is able to develop the car and work with the team, no question. And I don't forget the money they are able to bring.

But one measure that is always true: the points.

JEV has more points than Dan. Fact, full stop.

#606 lbennie

lbennie
  • Member

  • 1,554 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 12 October 2012 - 04:20

so you only pay attention to a driver's performance when his car is capable of scoring points (which happens to be rarely, in Toro Rosso's case)

got it. :drunk:



#607 goldenboy

goldenboy
  • Member

  • 3,400 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 12 October 2012 - 04:22

will you say the same though if DR outscores him heavily in the remaining races due to vergne being taken out while in front of him due to no fault of his own? Points, particularly in the bottom third, are hardly representative as FULL STOP. Quite ridiculous really.

Edited by goldenboy, 12 October 2012 - 04:25.


#608 goldenboy

goldenboy
  • Member

  • 3,400 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 12 October 2012 - 04:27

This brings up an interesting point for me actually, as to whether or not points should be allocated further down the field. I'm kind of of the feeling that it might be a good idea. I really hated it when it used to be only the top 6, what we have now is much better.

#609 Sardukar

Sardukar
  • Member

  • 427 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 12 October 2012 - 04:45

My point is: how you remember a driver, it's with his points count. How you compare drivers ultimately: points. How teams are ranked and get their bonus prizes: points.

Of course, the teams also sees how good & fast a driver is, how he performs and how he is able to develop the car and work with the team, no question. And I don't forget the money they are able to bring.

But one measure that is always true: the points.

JEV has more points than Dan. Fact, full stop.


troll is a troll


#610 Sardukar

Sardukar
  • Member

  • 427 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 12 October 2012 - 04:46

This brings up an interesting point for me actually, as to whether or not points should be allocated further down the field. I'm kind of of the feeling that it might be a good idea. I really hated it when it used to be only the top 6, what we have now is much better.


It would be good so the smaller teams have something to fight for. But the argument against is always that drivers will just cruise around to pickup points and not risk pushing.

#611 goldenboy

goldenboy
  • Member

  • 3,400 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 12 October 2012 - 05:18

It would be good so the smaller teams have something to fight for. But the argument against is always that drivers will just cruise around to pickup points and not risk pushing.

true, maybe we wouldn't have had such an exciting battle for tenth like we did with MS and DR last wkend.

#612 Anderis

Anderis
  • Member

  • 2,412 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 12 October 2012 - 06:00

I think the current amount of point scoring positions is OK. It's no use to give points to the whole field. It would favour conservative approach too much, especially for backmarkes, as finishing 3 times on 16th would be worth much more than finishing 10th once, 16th once, and DNF once.

#613 goldenboy

goldenboy
  • Member

  • 3,400 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 12 October 2012 - 06:30

yeah, I agree the more I think about it. Number 10 is a good goal, not exactly impossible for any team except HRT

#614 Ravenak

Ravenak
  • Member

  • 939 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 12 October 2012 - 08:45

troll is a troll


Nope, that's exactly my point of view and I'm not trying to annoy everybody, I'm entitled to it.

If Vergne scores some more points in the remaining races (for example 10 more than Dan), then he will have crushed him, irrespectively of both their performances this year.

If Daniel outscores him, then believe me, you and the people in this thread won't forget to highlight it, will you? :D

It doesn't matter if, say, Alonso does more beautiful performances than Vettel. If Vettel scores more points than FA, he's 3x WDC and we can forget FA.

Same dynamic at Toro Rosso, even if it's a small team.

Edited by Ravenak, 12 October 2012 - 08:46.


#615 Anderis

Anderis
  • Member

  • 2,412 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 12 October 2012 - 09:22

JEV has scored half of his points due to being the only driver who didn't lose time for changing for full wets in Malaysia, but he is only 1 point in front of Ricciardo now.

Sure, you can judge drivers by points, but when they have scored together less than 20 points due to the car being not competitive, this kind of comparison is pretty meaningless IMO, as it's more about being in the right place at the right time as JEV in Malaysia, not about who is more often in front or who is more consistent.

#616 Ravenak

Ravenak
  • Member

  • 939 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 12 October 2012 - 09:27

What's meaningless is remembering the times when a driver scores points (in this case, you mention JEV's points finish in Malaysia) but forgetting the ones where he was close to scoring a lot more (for example Monaco, Singapore) and failed to, because of external circumstances.

And it's the same for Daniel, I know, like in Monza. By the way: STR is a points scoring team, so there is no problem counting the points.

It's all about being able to deliver results for the team and, like it or not, being at the right place at the right time. JEV in Malaysia? Well he was there, the others weren't, that's their problem, not JEV's.

The saying "it's the results that count" isn't one for nothing!

#617 goldenboy

goldenboy
  • Member

  • 3,400 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 12 October 2012 - 09:45

If Daniel outscores him, then believe me, you and the people in this thread won't forget to highlight it, will you? :D


I think you would be surprised then.

#618 goldenboy

goldenboy
  • Member

  • 3,400 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:21

unfortunate for both guys, sounds like dan will get gearbox penalty, and vergne had purple S1 before abandoning lap due to Dans yellow flag. Don't think he would have made top ten but looked like he was definately going to outqually dan at a track he's never been to before :up:

#619 Sardukar

Sardukar
  • Member

  • 427 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:26

unfortunate for both guys, sounds like dan will get gearbox penalty, and vergne had purple S1 before abandoning lap due to Dans yellow flag. Don't think he would have made top ten but looked like he was definately going to outqually dan at a track he's never been to before :up:


why even bother posting that? if it doesnt have anything to do with points!? :lol: :lol: :lol:

vergne looked really good today, but i dunno i think ricciardo might have still got him. Either way the race is gunna be a good fight.

Advertisement

#620 GotYoubyTheBalls

GotYoubyTheBalls
  • Member

  • 301 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:34

unfortunate for both guys, sounds like dan will get gearbox penalty, and vergne had purple S1 before abandoning lap due to Dans yellow flag. Don't think he would have made top ten but looked like he was definately going to outqually dan at a track he's never been to before :up:


Vergne was smashing first Sector times all day because he had a speed trap figure about 10km/hr faster than Ricciardo and the rest. Ricciardo would have still beat him im sure as Dan had three tenths on him.

#621 Yhamm

Yhamm
  • Member

  • 634 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:39

Vergne was smashing first Sector times all day because he had a speed trap figure about 10km/hr faster than Ricciardo and the rest. Ricciardo would have still beat him im sure as Dan had three tenths on him.

Vergne was 3 tenth faster than his own time at S2 before losing everything in S3

#622 krapmeister

krapmeister
  • Member

  • 5,387 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:14

I was surprised to see Vergne's speed being almost 10kph faster than Dan's - I assume then that Vergne's running slightly less wing?

Bit of a disappointing result in Q2 after both drivers had a good Q1 - Dan with a gearbox issue which unfortunately slightly compromised Vergne's lap, although he apparently made an error in the last corner which completely screwed any chance of improving his time.

Let's hope the race goes better for both driver's than qualy did...

#623 olliek88

olliek88
  • Member

  • 4,032 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:32

Vergne was 3 tenth faster than his own time at S2 before losing everything in S3


That was because JEV made a mess of the final turn, he's admitted it himself.



#624 krapmeister

krapmeister
  • Member

  • 5,387 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:36

That was because JEV made a mess of the final turn, he's admitted it himself.


Didn't look like that tricky a corner but I guess if he is running slightly less wing and had DRS open then it was probably on the edge downforce wise...

#625 nomi

nomi
  • Member

  • 288 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:40

After watching both Ricci and JEV for nearly a season now,

I don't see how both of them are significantly better than Buemi and Jaime.

All 4 of them aren't too crash hot IMHO.

#626 krapmeister

krapmeister
  • Member

  • 5,387 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:46

After watching both Ricci and JEV for nearly a season now,

I don't see how both of them are significantly better than Buemi and Jaime.

All 4 of them aren't too crash hot IMHO.


3 options:

1. they are better

2. they are worse

3. they are the same

Of course, without directly comparing them (DR/JEV vs JA/SB) in the same car we will never know...



#627 olliek88

olliek88
  • Member

  • 4,032 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:58

Didn't look like that tricky a corner but I guess if he is running slightly less wing and had DRS open then it was probably on the edge downforce wise...


I think the last corner is quite hard on the fronts, if you push to hard to soon you'll just understeer wide and then if you try opening the DRS too soon then the backend will snap, here's what JEV said after -


"The performance looked very good and competitive this afternoon, but unfortunately I tried to take the final corner flat on my very last run, but I got it wrong and ruined my lap, nearly losing the car, so I am angry with myself for that,"

#628 InvertedLift

InvertedLift
  • Member

  • 167 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 13 October 2012 - 21:02

Is there somewhere we can see the sector times for the last lap (I can't find them on mclarenf-1)? Because I seem to remember on the last run the splits going:
S1 - Vergne 2 tenths up and purple
S2 - Vergne 3 tenths down (that sector)
S3 - Ricciardo stops and yellow flags for Vergne.

Either way, unfortunate that we couldn't see the straight fight on the last lap.



#629 icecream

icecream
  • Member

  • 310 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 13 October 2012 - 22:45

Is there somewhere we can see the sector times for the last lap (I can't find them on mclarenf-1)? Because I seem to remember on the last run the splits going:
S1 - Vergne 2 tenths up and purple
S2 - Vergne 3 tenths down (that sector)
S3 - Ricciardo stops and yellow flags for Vergne.

Either way, unfortunate that we couldn't see the straight fight on the last lap.


was vergne definitely impeded? no one makes mention of it in the post quali comments. vergne:

“The performance looked very good and competitive this afternoon, but unfortunately I tried to take the final corner flat on my very last run, but I got it wrong and ruined my lap, nearly losing the car, so I am angry with myself for that.


Edited by icecream, 13 October 2012 - 22:45.


#630 BCM

BCM
  • Member

  • 210 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 00:21

Vergne's last lap in Q2.

Sector 1: 34.3 (purple sector)
Sector 2: 43.8 ( personal best sector)
Sector 3: Best prior to last run was a 20.8

So guesstimate for his lap time is 1:38.9 which would have moved him in front of Ricciardo but no further. However on the lap Ricciardo's car died he'd posted:

Sector 1: 34.5
Sector 2: 43.5 (personal best sector)
Sector 3: Previous best 20.8

So he'd have posted a 1:38.8 meaning nothing would have changed.

Neither of them were anywhere near Q3 pace. Needed a 1:38.4 to get into Q3.

Times taken from F1 iPad app.

Edited by BCM, 14 October 2012 - 00:31.


#631 icecream

icecream
  • Member

  • 310 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 02:12

yes, but vergne's s3 time was bad because he made a mistake in the final corner, not because of yellow flags.

in any case, vergne had decent pace, so should be close in the race. might be a struggle to get into the points though.

#632 goldenboy

goldenboy
  • Member

  • 3,400 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 02:18

Vergne's last lap in Q2.

Sector 1: 34.3 (purple sector)
Sector 2: 43.8 ( personal best sector)
Sector 3: Best prior to last run was a 20.8

So guesstimate for his lap time is 1:38.9 which would have moved him in front of Ricciardo but no further. However on the lap Ricciardo's car died he'd posted:

Sector 1: 34.5
Sector 2: 43.5 (personal best sector)
Sector 3: Previous best 20.8

So he'd have posted a 1:38.8 meaning nothing would have changed.

Neither of them were anywhere near Q3 pace. Needed a 1:38.4 to get into Q3.

Times taken from F1 iPad app.

:up: thanks for the info. I was too lazy to get it!!

#633 wattoroos

wattoroos
  • Member

  • 981 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 03:14

Very close between them, Ricciardo has now had his gearbox penalty confirmed, so lets hope JEV can maybe sneak a point or two today

#634 Thunder143

Thunder143
  • Member

  • 36 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:44

GREAT race from both drivers today. Ricciardo lost his place due to his mistake. Great job from Vergne resisting Hamilton with brand new tires!

#635 InvertedLift

InvertedLift
  • Member

  • 167 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:45

Ricciardo is going to cost himself a chance at a RBR drive with stuff like that.

He creams JEV race after race except for the only races where half decent points are handed out. He's killed him this year overall but is going to end losing comfortably in the championship.

#636 goldenboy

goldenboy
  • Member

  • 3,400 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:48

STR getting a lot better lately! :up:

#637 Sardukar

Sardukar
  • Member

  • 427 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:49

Why did Ricciardo let Vergne pass? to defend against hamilton? bit of a strange decision.

#638 icecream

icecream
  • Member

  • 310 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:53

dont know. seems he had a problem of sorts, probably tyres.

great race from both drivers.

#639 Thunder143

Thunder143
  • Member

  • 36 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:53

Because 8 & 10 are better than 9 & 10 for the team. They were sure Hamilton would pass Ricciardo I think, which is true cause Ricciardo had a lower top speed than Vergne...

Advertisement

#640 BCM

BCM
  • Member

  • 210 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:53

It will be interesting to hear what Dan has to say about what caused him to go off.

There must have been a setup difference between the two cars because JV was the fastest car in sector 1 a number of times during the race.

Looked like he let Vergne through as he knew he was slower. Damage to his car after the off?

Edited by BCM, 14 October 2012 - 07:54.


#641 krapmeister

krapmeister
  • Member

  • 5,387 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:53

GREAT race from both drivers today. Ricciardo lost his place due to his mistake. Great job from Vergne resisting Hamilton with brand new tires!


I'm not sure it was just a 'mistake' - the car looked awful under braking for those last few laps so perhaps he had some kind of mechanical (brakes?) issue...

#642 goldenboy

goldenboy
  • Member

  • 3,400 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:54

Why did Ricciardo let Vergne pass? to defend against hamilton? bit of a strange decision.

He would inevitably get past so did the team thing. His pace was the same but after his off his times immediattely went down and never cam back. Awesome recovery from back of the gris though, and great race from vergne! Hopefully this keeps going!

seems the more agressive strategy with the lower grid placed driver works well for STR

Edited by goldenboy, 14 October 2012 - 07:55.


#643 krapmeister

krapmeister
  • Member

  • 5,387 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:55

It will be interesting to hear what Dan has to say about what caused him to go off.

There must have been a setup difference between the two cars because JV was the fastest car in sector 1 a number of times during the race.


I think JEV was running less wing because he was faster on the straights but not as quick as Ricciardo through the tighter stuff...

#644 olliek88

olliek88
  • Member

  • 4,032 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:55

Ricciardo is going to cost himself a chance at a RBR drive with stuff like that.

He creams JEV race after race except for the only races where half decent points are handed out. He's killed him this year overall but is going to end losing comfortably in the championship.


RIC's gearbox penalty cost him, to finish P9 from P24 is a bloody good drive.

#645 krapmeister

krapmeister
  • Member

  • 5,387 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:57

RIC's gearbox penalty cost him, to finish P9 from P24 is a bloody good drive.


I think he started P21, but a great drive no less - shame he couldn't hang on to the end but the way the car was looking under braking I am sure he had an issue of some kind...

And a great drive from Vergne as well - good race for STR after a somewhat disappointing qualifying...

Edited by krapmeister, 14 October 2012 - 07:58.


#646 STRFerrari4Ever

STRFerrari4Ever
  • Member

  • 1,712 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:57

Ricciardo was unlucky at the end, he showed that he's a better racer than Vergne but still well done to JEV.

#647 Thunder143

Thunder143
  • Member

  • 36 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:00

And how did he show he is a better driver than Vergne today exactly? They pretty much both nailed it...

#648 Sardukar

Sardukar
  • Member

  • 427 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:04

And how did he show he is a better driver than Vergne today exactly? They pretty much both nailed it...


He started further back, made more passes and let vergne pass him because of hamilton. We don't know if vergne would have been able to make a pass on him with ricc defending. The difference between Ricciardo in races at the start of the season and now is night and day. He has improved immensely.

#649 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • Member

  • 8,870 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:06

He started further back, made more passes and let vergne pass him because of hamilton. We don't know if vergne would have been able to make a pass on him with ricc defending. The difference between Ricciardo in races at the start of the season and now is night and day. He has improved immensely.


:up:

#650 STRFerrari4Ever

STRFerrari4Ever
  • Member

  • 1,712 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:06

And how did he show he is a better driver than Vergne today exactly? They pretty much both nailed it...

Started 21st, caught up with Vergne when he was battling Senna, passed him as well, he was nearly 9 seconds ahead of Vergne before he made that error or maybe something wrong with the car and then Vergne inherited that 8th place.

Enough proof?