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Ricciardo VS Vergne - 2012


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#751 Ravenak

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:21

:drunk:

TBH I think I've been more than fair on JEV - he's had some good performances and results and ended up ahead of Dan in the points so congrats to him on that. As I've said before in this thread it will be interesting to see how he goes next year having a season of F1 and experience of the tracks under his belt. Perhaps he will crush Dan next year but for this year, but with the greatest respect you are delusional if you think he did a better than or even equal job to Dan over the course of the season. Points do not tell the whole story...


Well, what's the story then? He wasn't as fast in Qualy? We know that, but it's not more important than the race.

JEV is a not as good at setting up the car as Dan? Well, how do you know, maybe we should ask their respective engineers?

How else do you want to tell who has been better? not joking here, I'm serious, what made Dan better in the end?

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#752 Zoetrope

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:32

Wow, I forgot these 2 exist lately. HRT outside 107% or Caterham and Marrusia fighting for position at least kept me aware they are there. :wave:

#753 rookie

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:49

Well, what's the story then? He wasn't as fast in Qualy? We know that, but it's not more important than the race.

JEV is a not as good at setting up the car as Dan? Well, how do you know, maybe we should ask their respective engineers?

How else do you want to tell who has been better? not joking here, I'm serious, what made Dan better in the end?

Big stretch IMO to say JEV has been better, who has ever lost 15-5 qualy and claimed a better season?

He showed some good race form in wet dry races which is a good sign, but RIC had more fastest laps, more laps in the top 10 (forix) and lot some points through very bad luck - monza, korea.

If you're a big fan you might say JEV was equal, but IMO the greats dont go down 15-5 to a team mate in qualy. Jury is out on both of them for me, but i'd be more worried if i was JEV

Edited by rookie, 26 November 2012 - 12:49.


#754 Ravenak

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 13:06

Big stretch IMO to say JEV has been better, who has ever lost 15-5 qualy and claimed a better season?

He showed some good race form in wet dry races which is a good sign, but RIC had more fastest laps, more laps in the top 10 (forix) and lot some points through very bad luck - monza, korea.

If you're a big fan you might say JEV was equal, but IMO the greats dont go down 15-5 to a team mate in qualy. Jury is out on both of them for me, but i'd be more worried if i was JEV


Wrong: JEV has more fastest laps, whatever that even means.

The 15-5 figure can be braught down a little when you consider Dan has more experience in F1 (yes, 11 Grand Prix in another season, with another team, another car and other drivers do count).

The bad luck argument doesn't hold as they both had misfortunes.

What next?

#755 GhostR

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 13:10

I think JEV's done a very solid job in his first season, and kept Dan honest throughout. However I also feel that JEV was flattered in the races by his poor qualifying efforts. Early in the season when they were doing 3 stops as often as not, JEV had fresher tyres available thanks to not running in Q2 a lot of the time. Generally speaking, it gave him that little tiny bit more flexibility for strategy - which can be super-duper important for a team that frequently ran aggressive strategies to try and steal some points here and there. JEV was also helped by Dan's early season inability to get off the line clean.

All in all, I have to say I think I saw more improvement in Dan over the duration of the season than I did in JEV. They've both got a lot of work to do for next year though. The team will have high expectations for a big step forward on the grid. IMO they halted car development for this year a long time ago and have instead allowed Key to focus on next year's car and giving the lads the chance to really show what they've got.

#756 goldenboy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:32

Congrats to JEV, he has a habit of eeking out these results despite generally being slower than Dan. Honestly I don't mean to make this a backhanded compliment, but watching live timing and qually all year it is actually quite obvious. If he can up his pace by a few tenths next year, Dan is in trouble. However if he doesn't and the car is better and scores more frequently he will have nowhere to hide IMO.

Bring on next year!

#757 Wingcommander

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 16:01

What is it with RB drivers crashing behind safety car? :mad:

#758 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 16:05

Well, I'm placing myself under fire again, but would it kill you to admit JEV simply did a better job, or at least an equal job as Dan?

But it simply not true, Dan has been faster.

Unfortauntely if neither are new Vettel -- as appears to be the case, I'm sure team will still rather Riccardio = new David Coulthard (quite decent, fairly fast) for RBR than JEV = new Alex Wurz for RBR (fairly slow but can race well sometimes...).

#759 rookie

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:41

Wrong: JEV has more fastest laps, whatever that even means.

The 15-5 figure can be braught down a little when you consider Dan has more experience in F1 (yes, 11 Grand Prix in another season, with another team, another car and other drivers do count).

The bad luck argument doesn't hold as they both had misfortunes.

What next?

Fair enough, you seem really keen on defending JEV and making him look like he came out on top. It seems the majority disagree. Which way do you think a team manager would be leaning now, RIC or JEV?

let's see how they go next year, hopefully the car is a bit better so we can get a better idea, with only a small amount of points its hard to seperate, just look at the non point scorers where a lucky race decides the championship order. do we really think petrov did better than kova this year? or that karthikeyan was better than PDLR?

last post on this topic, don't care about either of them that match, taking my popcorn back to the Alonso and Vettel threads.

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#760 Thomas99

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:36

I didn't think this was even a question? JEV's points have come down mostly to luck.

Ricciardo was well ahead of him at Brazil, right behind Vettel and had the pace to overtake, but he held his ground. Then they put him on dries when he should have been on wets, pitted him again to fix this problem, then for some unusual reason put him on full wets just for good measure.

When you look at Vergnes other 'victorious' race at Malaysia in the typhoon conditions. He stayed out on inters from an inspired team call and prayed for a red flag, which came. Lucky, yes. Good driving? Not really. If the Red flag didnt come he would have been burried in the pack.

Moving to Vergnes 3rd points finish, Spa, he had a low downforce setup compared to Ricciardo's and it proved to be faster, just. I'll give him that one as he outraced Ricciardo on pace even with the mechanical difference.

So when you consider all of Ricciardo's failures and the fact that Vergne has typically been behind in races apart from a few lucky points finishes it makes him look particularly average.

The quali advantage between them is also not really an advantage in that Torro Rosso car. When you line up 15th and 17th the gap of a second between the two cars isn't noticable. You put half a second in a top 10 car and it could be the difference of 3rd place and 11th place.

Vergne is a good driver, a great racer and has near equal race pace to Daniel. But his race craft and overtaking is severely lacking, he's mistake prone and what can only be described as a slouch in qualifying (or that he's good in qualifying and ricciardo is the new senna).

#761 Jimisgod

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:25

Ricciardo was the better driver by far. Only one strategy failure by the team cost him victory over the slower Vergne.

Vergne has had luck on his side at the few races the TR could compete for points. Every other time, Ricciardo brained him.

#762 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:19

Their season was reminiscent of Coulthard v Webber in 2007.

Webber was comfortably faster all year long, but lost out to DC in the points 14 to 10 due to regular misfortunate to Webber whilst in excellent position. Fuji just off the top of my head.

The jury's still out on this pair overall, but DannyRic was the Toro Rosso star in 2012.

#763 krapmeister

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:38

Their season was reminiscent of Coulthard v Webber in 2007...


I'm not sure that's a favorable omen for Dan and JEV... :p