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Ricciardo VS Vergne - 2012


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#101 JimmyRecard

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 00:57

Marko cannot place a driver at RBR at will IMO, they need to show they deserve it, and build a reputation. I can't imagine Newey accepting any old driver, for example. Marko can facilitate that display, however. Having Marko's emotional support is a big deal IMO, though Buemi had it for a while and failed to capitalise on it.

I could be incorrect, but my perception is that Horner is partial to Ricciardo (I suspect the product of his strong setup reputation, smooth driving style and laid-back personality - Horner hates public conflict) and Marko is more of an advocate of Vergne. Marko has more say, but he's not the absolute power.

I have the same impression of Horner, always speaks well of Ricciardo and seems to like his easy going nature. If Dan is as quick as I believe he is there won't be much the Marko can do about it.

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#102 Nobody

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 05:22

Ricciardo being slow at getting up to speed was something pretty clear last year... Hopefully he has learnt enough though to be about to get out there in the STR and be quick.

Ive seen a few races of JEV, and I was more impressed with what I saw than I ever was with Ricciardo. I think ill be tending toward JEV.

Either way, neither look like the next Vettel or Lewis. On that, you have to say Lewis has raised the bar for rookies. Lewis was as quick as Alonso after 4, 5 races? Lewis has made judging rookies a whole lot harder for us, and for themselves. Likewise Vettel from the get go was visibly quick and you knew he would be big. If these guys are going to be anywhere near as good we will know it fairly soon IMO.


Good drivers find a way to show it, Lewis was lucky he had top car to do it in, and he showed that he is WDC material as well.

Take nothing away, everyones's path is different, but I remember seeing Kubica at Monza in the BMW and thinking "this guy's got it".

DR is lucky to have survived a stint at HRT. That car can only make a rookie look slow and at sea, but what he has learned from it will be invaliable.
Next year is the real test.

#103 marcoferrari

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 08:12

Hopefully Daniel wins this fight... (yes, Krapmeister and Goldenboy you are not dreaming :lol: )
I really wanted to see him race against Jaime, but sadly it wont happen... Vergne looked really slow during those three practices especially on the harder tyres, so
really don t get it why he has the seat, probably because of arrogance similarities with Mr. Marko... :lol: I think he will be the prefered driver... Sadly...

Edited by marcoferrari, 30 December 2011 - 08:13.


#104 marcoferrari

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 08:40

This just isn't true at all. By his 2nd race, Ricciardo was matching Liuzzi for qualifying pace. By the ItalianGP, he was starting to outqualify him.

This wouldn't mean much on its own, but his race pace was where he really shined. There's no comparison to be made in Monza, where Liuzzi didn't complete the race, but in Singapore, Ricciardo just plain blew Liuzzi away in the race(as well as outqualifying him by 4 tenths). In Suzuka, Ricciardo was again miles faster in the race. He was much quicker in Korea. In India, Karthikeyan took over Liuzzi's seat(and finished ahead due to Ricciardo needing an extra stop).

In Abu Dhabi, the times were much closer between Liuzzi and Ricciardo, though Dan was ahead in the race when he retired.

In Brazil, Ricciardo had Glock in front of him for the whole first stint, slowing him up. After Glock retired, though, Dan resumed being the quicker out of he and Liuzzi, although Liuzzi would be ahead when he retired.

Still, all in all, you can hardly say this is 'slow to get up to speed'. By the end of the season, I think Ricciardo showed to be the better driver. In fact, he probably showed this by Monza/Singapore. Apart from the first race, Dan was ahead everytime they both finished a GP, too.

I'd been hearing Dan talk about how he was quicker than Liuzzi in Autosport articles and everything, but didn't quite pay it much attention because it was kinda hard to follow the HRT's in the race. But I went back and looked at the FIA timing and when Dan says he was quicker than Liuzzi, he's being modest. The times suggest he was a good deal quicker on many occasions.

For somebody who was thrown in mid-season to a terrible car, I'd say he's done a magnificent job and I think Vergne will have to be on top of his game to beat Dan this coming season.


Beating Liuzzi is not that difficult... Sutil trashed him in an even more outstanding way then Vettel (over 1 second! faster in Spa and Istanbul, for example) and where is he now? Without a seat... Btw. Daniel seems to be stronger in races then in qualis, which is a bit of a surprise for me... Especially the quali in Spa was really awful...

Edited by marcoferrari, 30 December 2011 - 08:41.


#105 Zava

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 09:05

Beating Liuzzi is not that difficult... Sutil trashed him in an even more outstanding way then Vettel (over 1 second! faster in Spa and Istanbul, for example) and where is he now? Without a seat... Btw. Daniel seems to be stronger in races then in qualis, which is a bit of a surprise for me... Especially the quali in Spa was really awful...

it is a thing to beat Liuzzi as a stand in driver, and another thing to beat a Liuzzi who took 1,5 years break in your 4th straight year at the team.

#106 Seanspeed

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 12:09

Beating Liuzzi is not that difficult... Sutil trashed him in an even more outstanding way then Vettel (over 1 second! faster in Spa and Istanbul, for example) and where is he now? Without a seat... Btw. Daniel seems to be stronger in races then in qualis, which is a bit of a surprise for me... Especially the quali in Spa was really awful...

Beating Liuzzi on its own isn't that big of an accomplishment, sure, but to do it as a rookie thrown in mid-season and to thrash him as much as he has in such a short period of time definitely tells me he was not slow to get up to speed, which was the whole point of my post.

Considering Liuzzi's experience, I'd say thats quite an accomplishment, even if he isn't the fastest guy out there.

#107 glorius&victorius

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 14:51

Vergne and Ricciardo rubbing each other in with warm relaxing smooth massage oil.. very friendly to each other

#108 marcoferrari

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 16:36

Vergne and Ricciardo rubbing each other in with warm relaxing smooth massage oil.. very friendly to each other


Yes, at the moment it looks like a fairytale... :) Buemi was also smiling at the end of 2009, but much less after this year s Valencia, when he was speaking "about that Spaniard with lot of luck"... So, lets wait and see, if the friendship between Ricciardo and Vergne remains the same...  ;)

#109 danstheman

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 01:01

This debate is going to be a hot one this year I think! Unless one of them can put the other to bed, then we might end up in a situation like Buemi and Jaime with little to separate each driver...

http://www1.skysport...Rosso-s-newbies



#110 goingthedistance

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 10:21

I am interested to see how JEV goes in the races proper. From watching WSR I think he can be overly aggressive, and could find himself the source of a few incidents in the first half of the season.

#111 krapmeister

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 10:37

Certainly going to be interesting - both set near identical times at Jerez (yes I know, we don't know what programs either of them were running). JEV does seem to be an aggressive type of driver which may get him into trouble but the times it does may be offset by the times it works for him. Looking forward to the battle :up:

#112 bub

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 11:23

Vergne will make more mistakes. Ricciardo will be more consistent and finish ahead.

#113 goldenboy

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 12:08

I've seen and read interviews with vergne were he is really the opposite of arrogant, but I spose we will find out this year.

And to anyone that watched dan's live timing constantly knows how well he did in that HRT, and pretty much completely mistake free. Apparently in his STR friday role he never even locked a wheel.

The real thing to watch is how he is going to handle changing his style and being more agressive as he said he had to do. For me, Dan vs JEV is the story of the year. And I like both of them so it's a kinda strange feeling! :drunk:

#114 Artifex

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 12:48

I am looking forward to this fight. My question is that if both Dan and JEV fail to make the grade in Marko's eyes does that not put his position under pressure? I personly hope it does because I do not like him or the reach that he appears to have.

#115 jamiegc

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 13:45

I am looking forward to this fight. My question is that if both Dan and JEV fail to make the grade in Marko's eyes does that not put his position under pressure? I personly hope it does because I do not like him or the reach that he appears to have.


Why would it put Marko under pressure....

His job is to find someone as good or better than Vettel which is a pretty thankless task.

If the kids prove good enough for F1 they get into STR, if they probe good enough for RB they get into RB..

As for Vergne v Ricciardo, it seems pretty widely agreed that Vergne is quicker, but Ricciardo is smoother and more rounded.

A junior Hamilton v Button.

#116 JimmyRecard

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 04:29

I agree they are shaping up as a Button v Hamilton prospect, smooth vs aggressive. I personally think Ricciardo is just as quick as Vergne but his style means he doesn't throw the car around to get his results.

Look at the young driver test, everyone is swayed by Vergne's times there and the fact he got near Vettel's qualy time. Sure that is impressive but if you dig out Ricciardo's times from the year before, he smashed Vettel's time to pieces.

#117 Jaybools

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 07:58

I agree they are shaping up as a Button v Hamilton prospect, smooth vs aggressive. I personally think Ricciardo is just as quick as Vergne but his style means he doesn't throw the car around to get his results.

Look at the young driver test, everyone is swayed by Vergne's times there and the fact he got near Vettel's qualy time. Sure that is impressive but if you dig out Ricciardo's times from the year before, he smashed Vettel's time to pieces.


This.

Also, Marko specifically praised DR for his speed while simultaneously praising JEV for his aggression. So at that point in time, it would appear Marko believes Dan's got more raw pace.

Personally hoping DR finding an "adequate" level of aggression is much easier than JEV catching his raw pace :p

Edited by Jaybools, 16 February 2012 - 07:58.


#118 jamiegc

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 11:04

Look at the young driver test, everyone is swayed by Vergne's times there and the fact he got near Vettel's qualy time. Sure that is impressive but if you dig out Ricciardo's times from the year before, he smashed Vettel's time to pieces.


The YDT times are irrelevant. The 2010 YDT was run with identical cars and tyres to the 2010 race but on a track that was 'rubbered in'. The 2011 YDT ran with Pirelli test tyres and teams working on the non EBD for 2012. Vergne said on 'The Flying Lap' that he never got to run a low fuel run in the RB7.

#119 krapmeister

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 11:14

...As for Vergne v Ricciardo, it seems pretty widely agreed that Vergne is quicker, but Ricciardo is smoother and more rounded.


It is widely agreed? I would say that most seem to agree that Vergne is the more aggressive driver, but as to who is the quicker that is up for debate...

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#120 Sakkie

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 12:52

Very hard to judge the two on their respective performances in past years. This is F1, a totally different ball game, but just going on what I saw last week, Vergne will be the one to take over from Weber when he leaves, or is shown the door. DR will suffer the same fate as the last two TR drivers, although I think he will still prove to be a few notches above both of them.

I was most impressed by the young Frenchman last week, all things considered. Also, I feel he has more agression, so badly needed at this level. I just think he´s more of a complete package than the Aussie. Only my opinion mind.

Edited by Sakkie, 16 February 2012 - 12:53.


#121 Seanspeed

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 17:50

Very hard to judge the two on their respective performances in past years. This is F1, a totally different ball game, but just going on what I saw last week, Vergne will be the one to take over from Weber when he leaves, or is shown the door. DR will suffer the same fate as the last two TR drivers, although I think he will still prove to be a few notches above both of them.

I was most impressed by the young Frenchman last week, all things considered. Also, I feel he has more agression, so badly needed at this level. I just think he´s more of a complete package than the Aussie. Only my opinion mind.

But what are you basing your opinion on, exactly? What did you 'see' that makes you think this? You're making a whole lot of assumptions based on very little it seems.

#122 goldenboy

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 18:41

Very hard to judge the two on their respective performances in past years. This is F1, a totally different ball game, but just going on what I saw last week, Vergne will be the one to take over from Weber when he leaves, or is shown the door. DR will suffer the same fate as the last two TR drivers, although I think he will still prove to be a few notches above both of them.

I was most impressed by the young Frenchman last week, all things considered. Also, I feel he has more agression, so badly needed at this level. I just think he´s more of a complete package than the Aussie. Only my opinion mind.

what you say doesn't actually make any sense at all!

by the way didn't DR have the best time last week (out of him and vergne) overall anyway? and if he's not using agression but is faster wouldn't that mean he has a better package?

#123 krapmeister

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 02:52

Very hard to judge the two on their respective performances in past years. This is F1, a totally different ball game, but just going on what I saw last week, Vergne will be the one to take over from Weber when he leaves, or is shown the door. DR will suffer the same fate as the last two TR drivers, although I think he will still prove to be a few notches above both of them.

I was most impressed by the young Frenchman last week, all things considered. Also, I feel he has more agression, so badly needed at this level. I just think he´s more of a complete package than the Aussie. Only my opinion mind.


Wow - you sound like someone in the know. Is that you Giorgio?

#124 Jaybools

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 03:18

:rotfl: Sakkie got the smackdown!

But yes mate I'm genuinely interested in what you "saw" in Vergne that was so special when Dan had to run through all the brand new car checks on the first day, and on the second day was still faster than Vergne's best time on the fourth day despite the track being much more rubbered in?

#125 Seanspeed

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 03:26

:rotfl: Sakkie got the smackdown!

But yes mate I'm genuinely interested in what you "saw" in Vergne that was so special when Dan had to run through all the brand new car checks on the first day, and on the second day was still faster than Vergne's best time on the fourth day despite the track being much more rubbered in?

Dont mock the guy. Some people just have 'senses' for these things. A 'sixth' sense if you will. Movies have been made about such things.

#126 Meanbeakin

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 04:28

Dont mock the guy. Some people just have 'senses' for these things. A 'sixth' sense if you will. Movies have been made about such things.


Like the sixth sense I think Sakkie is seeing things that other people can't.

#127 Seanspeed

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 04:32

Like the sixth sense I think Sakkie is seeing things that other people can't.

Not sure if you understood the joke or not. Either way, thanks for participating. :clap:

#128 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 04:53

I'd been hearing Dan talk about how he was quicker than Liuzzi in Autosport articles and everything, but didn't quite pay it much attention because it was kinda hard to follow the HRT's in the race. But I went back and looked at the FIA timing and when Dan says he was quicker than Liuzzi, he's being modest. The times suggest he was a good deal quicker on many occasions.

:up:

Sounds like an interesting battle.

It doesn't preclude Rosberg sweeping in to take the RBR seat and both being shown the door in 1.5 seasons times for brighter RB program shining lights, but hopefully it goes well for them instead. :)

#129 Seanspeed

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 05:08

:up:

Sounds like an interesting battle.

It doesn't preclude Rosberg sweeping in to take the RBR seat and both being shown the door in 1.5 seasons times for brighter RB program shining lights, but hopefully it goes well for them instead. :)

Red Bull are desperate to prove their development program works. They are very keen to promote from within rather than bring in existing talent. Vettel has given them the satisfaction of knowing that their program can work, so they are keen on continuing with that legacy. I'd be willing to bet money that either Ricciardo or Vergne WILL have that seat in 2013 or 2014, depending on how Webber performs this coming year.

#130 bass6

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 05:19

I reckon Ricciardo's gonna be the man.

#131 F1ultimate

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 09:32

I reckon Ricciardo's gonna be the man.

..................and Vergne the crash kid.

I pray that he ends up trading paint and sponsor logos with Vettel. I would love to see the look on Marko's face when that happens.

#132 Juan Kerr

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 09:40

The one who has the most mechanical or circumstantial problems will be regarded as the slower as per usual. The majority of the viewing public and posters on here won't look much further than their noses.

#133 noikeee

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 09:49

I'm a little baffled people think the loser in this battle will suffer the same fate as Buemi/Alguersuari. Okay it's very very early days yet but it seems pretty clear to me both are above average drivers and Red Bull aren't idiots, eventually one of them will beat the other, but if both are good, they aren't just going to automatically drop the loser when there's nobody else in the ladder to fill in their shoes and the loser is pretty good too.

It's entirely possible Vergne will win as the noises from Red Bull camp seem to indicate they have a little extra more faith in him. Remember the statements from Carlin as well about their time in F3 ("Vergne best driver we've ever had"). I'm still just about backing Dan tho - his time at HRT was underrated because he started very slowly there, but by the end he was comfortably outpacing Liuzzi in the races. Not very different to the debut of a certain german driver a few seasons ago, who happened to come in mid-season to partner Vitantonio Liuzzi...

If Vergne is close to or beats Dan as people expect, Red Bull would be completely daft to drop one of them. Unless they're selling Toro Rosso. There's no driver in the ladder ready to move to STR, and keeping a 2nd backup for Vettel for the future would be a nice safeguard, because eventually he may want to move out from Red Bull too. I can see him at Ferrari in a distant future. I wouldn't be surprised to see Dan/JEV again as team-mates but in RBR a few seasons into the future.

Then again I've been sometimes very wrong at futurology, who knows what'll happen.

#134 gillesthegenius

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 10:08

I'm a little baffled people think the loser in this battle will suffer the same fate as Buemi/Alguersuari. Okay it's very very early days yet but it seems pretty clear to me both are above average drivers and Red Bull aren't idiots, eventually one of them will beat the other, but if both are good, they aren't just going to automatically drop the loser when there's nobody else in the ladder to fill in their shoes and the loser is pretty good too.

It's entirely possible Vergne will win as the noises from Red Bull camp seem to indicate they have a little extra more faith in him. Remember the statements from Carlin as well about their time in F3 ("Vergne best driver we've ever had"). I'm still just about backing Dan tho - his time at HRT was underrated because he started very slowly there, but by the end he was comfortably outpacing Liuzzi in the races. Not very different to the debut of a certain german driver a few seasons ago, who happened to come in mid-season to partner Vitantonio Liuzzi...

If Vergne is close to or beats Dan as people expect, Red Bull would be completely daft to drop one of them. Unless they're selling Toro Rosso. There's no driver in the ladder ready to move to STR, and keeping a 2nd backup for Vettel for the future would be a nice safeguard, because eventually he may want to move out from Red Bull too. I can see him at Ferrari in a distant future. I wouldn't be surprised to see Dan/JEV again as team-mates but in RBR a few seasons into the future.

Then again I've been sometimes very wrong at futurology, who knows what'll happen.


:up: Good post.

#135 Jaybools

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 08:27

TR seem to be doing a tremendous amount of pit stops with JEV. I wonder if he's having issues with it? They were at it yesterday morning too... Usually you don't spend that much time doing it unless its a noticeable problem?

I guess we'll see if they do it 100 million times with Dan today.

#136 Jaybools

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 01:30

In the end Dan ended up doing 7 trillion pit stops as well so nothing specific to JEV!

Anyway, what are peoples impression of how they went?

#137 showtime

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 01:35

Unnoticed, the usual @ STR

#138 Meanbeakin

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 05:40

In the end Dan ended up doing 7 trillion pit stops as well so nothing specific to JEV!

Anyway, what are peoples impression of how they went?


Both seemed to do pretty well, but kind've hard to tell from testing.

At the end of the day they've both had almost identical career paths apart from Dan's foray with HRT last year which is probably the only point of difference between them going into the year experience wise.

We'll only get an indication at Melbourne as to how the battle will go.

#139 Testarossa2012

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 01:04

Vergne in Jerez, day four.

Pictures

Edited by Testarossa2012, 09 March 2012 - 01:04.


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#140 Alarcon

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 01:40

Beating Liuzzi is not that difficult... Sutil trashed him in an even more outstanding way then Vettel (over 1 second! faster in Spa and Istanbul, for example) and where is he now? Without a seat... Btw. Daniel seems to be stronger in races then in qualis, which is a bit of a surprise for me... Especially the quali in Spa was really awful...



Maybe because Vettel ran only 1 race in F1 before compiting against Liuzzi, and began with the season so far started (despite he beat him).

If I´m not bad, Sutil was overpaced by Fisico... :rolleyes:

However I´m with you, after beating Di Resta on qualifiying, race and points, I cannot understand he has no seat... imo the problem of Adrian was he´s a driver who needs motivation (strong team mate) and when he has it, he shines.

Agree also about Daniel, I think he´s not a nice qualifier but he shines in the race pace. After that I must say I consider Vergne will beat him. Maybe not at the start of the season but when he´ll get more experience in F1, he will be supreme. I´m sure he´s a great driver. Well, both they are.

Edited by Alarcon, 09 March 2012 - 01:40.


#141 Alarcon

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 01:59

I dont recall saying it made Vergne better than Ricciardo, someone asked what Vergne had accomplished and ultimately it is a fact that he outscored Ricciardo as a teammate.

Paul di Resta outscored Vettel in 06 and spends his days telling everyone who will listen about it, so we know that it means little what happened a few years back.



He did, just by a few points, but he did. However Seb was running also in WS and testing in F1 at the same time, and imo it´s impossible to concentrate you 100% in a "lower championship" when you are testing in the best league (F1) and trying to do your best in those FP and also trying the WS... Di Resta only had to focus to beat Seb.

Edited by Alarcon, 09 March 2012 - 01:59.


#142 lbennie

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:38

ok, i'll light this fuse :p

ricciardo seemed much more confident first up. to be expected though i suppose, bein vergne's first proper weekend.



#143 thedan82

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 05:16

ok, i'll light this fuse :p

ricciardo seemed much more confident first up. to be expected though i suppose, bein vergne's first proper weekend.



Yeah, I am expecting this to be the case for the first couple of GP's.

I think they will be closer after that.

Ricciardo had a hard time getting it all together in Silverstone.

#144 jamiegc

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 19:16

Strange schedule by TR. Vergne didn't do a dry run in FP1, neither Vergne or Ricciardo set any representative dry time in FP2.

#145 Disgrace

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 06:48

Ricciardo gets the first qualifying session at home.

#146 icecream

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 06:51

Ricciardo gets the first qualifying session at home.


:up: :up: :up:

great job by vergne as well. these boys are pretty evenly matched.

#147 marcoferrari

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:31

:up: :up: :up:

great job by vergne as well. these boys are pretty evenly matched.



Same as the boys before... :)

#148 Redback

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:31

Impressive effort from both of them first time out in the car (in anger).

This will be an interesting battle and one that not only Red Bull will be watching...

#149 jamiegc

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:00

Good effort from both drivers. Vergne starting next to Ricciardo on the 'clean' line, on fresher tires has to fancy his chances into T1. (expect an embarrassing teammate collision now :lol: )

#150 krapmeister

krapmeister
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  • 5,612 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 17 March 2012 - 10:09

Great job by DR and JEV :up: :up:

Both seemed to perform impressively well - Dan at his first home GP and JEV at his first GP ever. :up:

In a way though it is a shame that we can't measure either of them against a known quantity - would've been interesting to see what Jaime or Buemi could've done in this years car...