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Ricciardo VS Vergne - 2012


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#201 danstheman

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 10:57

That is true, but Senna also had to pit to replace a puncture, drove a damaged car from T1 and was ahead of Ricciardo all race, until Massa went kamikaze :eek:


Dan lost 20 secs to Senna on the first lap actually, as he was slower to the pits. Then out of the 52 laps they were both racing, Dan was faster in 38 of them. They both had damaged cars.

http://en.mclarenf-1...dr2=Bruno Senna

In fact, using that website Dan had more faster laps than most of the mid-field, even Kimi, it was just that he was so far behind it didn't seem like much.

Edited by danstheman, 19 March 2012 - 11:05.


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#202 goingthedistance

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:01

That Torro Rosso is pretty fast. But then maybe it always was, and JEV and RIC are a different class to their predecessors.

#203 krapmeister

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:04

That Torro Rosso is pretty fast. But then maybe it always was, and JEV and RIC are a different class to their predecessors.


That's the thing, unfortunately we don't have a yardstick to measure them against. I am sure the team will have an idea, but it is hard for us to gauge...

#204 Brother Fox

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:18

That's the thing, unfortunately we don't have a yardstick to measure them against. I am sure the team will have an idea, but it is hard for us to gauge...

Like that has ever stopped us before :D

#205 krapmeister

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:25

Like that has ever stopped us before :D


:p

#206 williams96

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 07:44

That is true, but Senna also had to pit to replace a puncture, drove a damaged car from T1 and was ahead of Ricciardo all race, until Massa went kamikaze :eek:


How the race actually panned out if you followed Ricciardo:

After pitting he was 20 seconds behind Senna. By lap 13 he was under 7 seconds behind. The real problem Ricciardo had was overtaking which is rather understandable when you've got a damaged car that is pulling to the left. Pic became the next man up the road after Senna cleared him in 2 laps. However Heikki pitted the lap after and came out just behind Dan (Dan had caught Pic by 3 seconds that lap).

So on lap 15/16 you had a three way fight covered by just less than a second. I don't think we saw it, but the end result was Heikki got them both and Ricciardo overtook Pic. On fresh rubber Heikki was able to pull a bit of a gap on Ricciardo and maintain it until the Aussie pitted.

He was then a lap down but had very respectable pace until the safety car. Contrary to your belief, Ricciardo had already overtaken Senna on the first racing lap when the safety car went in. That's 5-6 laps you've managed to completely miss. Then he tried a move on Massa, lost his position, but thankfully then managed to avoid the Massa / Senna collision. Quickly caught up the few seconds to Vergne, them both overtaking di Resta on Lap 50. They followed in very close company and we know how it worked out!

Overall, he was unfortunate at the start with an overly cautious Webber in an ever decreasing space in front of him. Survived that only to be tagged and consequently tagging Senna. Just a racing incident caused by too many drivers taking different approaches on the same bit of track. The safety car did help him, but it also helped a lot of drivers and I don't think it should detract from what was a great drive from Ricciardo.

That's not to say Vergne didn't do well too, he suffered a lot from traffic he could not clear but managed to avoid making any silly moves that we often see with rookies while showing flashes of brilliant speed.

#207 Grubdog

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 08:08

Vergne did a good job being unspectacular and throwing away an easy result, while Ricciardo wrestled some points from the dark abyss of being a lap down with no reference point in sight - only fighting off the whispers of a damaged car telling him to give up.

I'll give Vergne some more chances because it was his first race, but Ricciardo is champion material. He's already done something impressive in that car, which Buemi and Alguersuari couldn't do in 2 years. This is a great lineup and it's going to be a good year for Toro Rosso.

#208 GhostR

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 12:41

As someone who doesn't like Helmut Marko's methods and manner of 'speaking his mind' on topics he should leave alone (such as when to expect Webber to retire!) I have to laugh at the history of Marko's statement at one point re: Ricciardo and Vergne. From memory something along the lines of them both being exceptional talents, but that if he had to back one driver from the then RB junior quartet to go into a corner in a scrap and come out of it in front he'd pick Vergne. Fast forward to Melbourne, and it's Ricciardo who comes out of the last lap melee with points, and Vergne getting dusted up by both Ricciardo *and* Di Resta.

Edited by GhostR, 20 March 2012 - 12:42.


#209 Sardukar

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 14:32

They are both really good. But what Ricciardo showed during the race in determination and never give up attitude is what f1 team bosses want to see. They are spending hundreds of millions of dollars on these cars and they want drivers to give 100% during the entire weekend, especially on sunday. Everyone has their opinion on the top drivers in F1, but they all there because they keep pushing until the final lap of each race. Buemi and Alguersuari were both fairly quick drivers, but they honestly didn't have the fight in them that both ricciardo and vergne have. Regardless of who wins the battle for the RBR seat, i think both of them (aslong as they keep pushing eachother) will be around in F1 for a long time.

#210 Seanspeed

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 14:40

As someone who doesn't like Helmut Marko's methods and manner of 'speaking his mind' on topics he should leave alone (such as when to expect Webber to retire!) I have to laugh at the history of Marko's statement at one point re: Ricciardo and Vergne. From memory something along the lines of them both being exceptional talents, but that if he had to back one driver from the then RB junior quartet to go into a corner in a scrap and come out of it in front he'd pick Vergne. Fast forward to Melbourne, and it's Ricciardo who comes out of the last lap melee with points, and Vergne getting dusted up by both Ricciardo *and* Di Resta.

That last lap was a bit frantic. I dont think you can make any conclusions off of it. I think anyone of them could have ended up the worst for it if just a tiny variable had changed somewhere along the sequence of events.

#211 jamiegc

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 14:47

As someone who doesn't like Helmut Marko's methods and manner of 'speaking his mind' on topics he should leave alone (such as when to expect Webber to retire!) I have to laugh at the history of Marko's statement at one point re: Ricciardo and Vergne. From memory something along the lines of them both being exceptional talents, but that if he had to back one driver from the then RB junior quartet to go into a corner in a scrap and come out of it in front he'd pick Vergne. Fast forward to Melbourne, and it's Ricciardo who comes out of the last lap melee with points, and Vergne getting dusted up by both Ricciardo *and* Di Resta.


Vergne was far too cautious coming out of the last turn having to get out of the throttle along with Ricciardo to avoid contact with Perez's damaged car which allowed Di Resta to overtake using stored up KERS. He will have to learn from that.

As said a few days ago, its a shame for both of them that the first corner happened - Vergne jumping 11th-8th and being pushed off track by Webber and Ricciardo having Senna park infront of him as TR couldve been looking at 12-14 points.

Edited by jamiegc, 20 March 2012 - 14:47.


#212 lbennie

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 22:48

Vergne was far too cautious coming out of the last turn having to get out of the throttle along with Ricciardo to avoid contact with Perez's damaged car which allowed Di Resta to overtake using stored up KERS. He will have to learn from that.

As said a few days ago, its a shame for both of them that the first corner happened - Vergne jumping 11th-8th and being pushed off track by Webber and Ricciardo having Senna park infront of him as TR couldve been looking at 12-14 points.


Webber got sandwiched at the start. How could he have taken anyone off?

#213 karne

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 00:06

Webber got sandwiched at the start. How could he have taken anyone off?


Agreed. That's almost as good as the Daily Telegraph's race report saying that Mark "glanced" another car at turn 1. Well bloody hell, if that was "glancing" another car I'd hate to think what constitutes a "hit" for that guy.

#214 lbennie

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 00:17

i see it's come from JEV's post race interview.

im going to watch the start again... but a pretty bold thing to say given the relationship both teams have.




#215 AdHoc

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 06:02

I reckon little JEV is going to become a monster very early in the season.

Having done what he has done for his first ever F1 race is a great achievement, I think he will surprise more than many here!

Wouldn't put too much money on brother Ricciardo from now on...

#216 Jaybools

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 06:03

I reckon little JEV is going to become a monster very early in the season.

Having done what he has done for his first ever F1 race is a great achievement, I think he will surprise more than many here!

Wouldn't put too much money on brother Ricciardo from now on...


Based on?

Sorry, I'm not trying to be a dick, but I'm genuinely curious.

#217 lbennie

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 06:20

i think how fast he got up to speed on his first weekend.

i havn't seen anyone that comfortable on their first outing since lewis.




#218 Jaybools

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 07:10

i think how fast he got up to speed on his first weekend.

i havn't seen anyone that comfortable on their first outing since lewis.


Perez. Kamui (more so). I think we've been spoilt by the fact he has had a full preseason of testing. We're used to people getting chucked in half way through, but it definitely isn't the strongest debut, hell it doesnt even match up to Perez (one stopped, drove a fantastic race) and Koba (dicing with Jense, showing great pace)

So I'd have to say I disagree on your "not since Lewis" ;)

#219 slideways

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 07:12

I was really impressed by JEV as well, Ricciardo had to pull everything out to get back in front of him in the first race ... should be a brilliant battle between these two.

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#220 AdHoc

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 07:31

Based on his showing during all free practice, error free, shear performance. Then in the race, as a rookie and not in the easiest car, he's just "there".

Plus he has Helmut Marko fully behind him. He's from the breed of champions, very competitive, he doesn't only want to be the fastest, he wants to destroy anybody in his path. We'll just have to wait to see the magic happen.

#221 SirRacer

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 07:35

Vergne did a good job being unspectacular and throwing away an easy result, while Ricciardo wrestled some points from the dark abyss of being a lap down with no reference point in sight - only fighting off the whispers of a damaged car telling him to give up.

I'll give Vergne some more chances because it was his first race, but Ricciardo is champion material. He's already done something impressive in that car, which Buemi and Alguersuari couldn't do in 2 years. This is a great lineup and it's going to be a good year for Toro Rosso.

You don't know how Buemi or Alguersuari would have performed with this car, this year, considering the grid is much more close...

#222 Jaybools

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 07:55

Based on his showing during all free practice, error free, shear performance. Then in the race, as a rookie and not in the easiest car, he's just "there".

Plus he has Helmut Marko fully behind him. He's from the breed of champions, very competitive, he doesn't only want to be the fastest, he wants to destroy anybody in his path. We'll just have to wait to see the magic happen.


So does any F1 driver? And so have many rookies in the past. Not sure how you can tell hes from the "breed of champions" from this, wasn't an exceptional debut, but ok... Indeed we will have to wait and see.

#223 AdHoc

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 08:00

Well, I have also followed him closely in the past years, especially last year. It helps a lot to get a good idea about him.

I've met him 3 times now (once at his parents' karting track near Paris, once at the ERDF Kart Masters in Paris Bercy in December and once last thursday) and you can just tell he's a natural born driver who's not there just to drive for the sake of it, even though he's one of the nicest guys I've ever met.

#224 jamiegc

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 09:03

Webber got sandwiched at the start. How could he have taken anyone off?


It didnt say it was Webber's fault, however Webber made contact with Hulkenberg on his inside which pushed him into Vergne who was going around his outside. Vergne wouldve been at the front of the Rosberg roadblock, rather than the back of it.

#225 iotar

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 09:24

You don't know how Buemi or Alguersuari would have performed with this car, this year, considering the grid is much more close...

This is how marketing works. You repeat something, you repeat it, again and again. Whatever happens is just a confirmation of an image created. Same with TR drivers hype. I remember when Buemi came to F1 he was immediately out-qualifying Bourdais by a big margin. Bourdais that was often close to Vettel.

It's an interesting situation because here you can't praise one driver without noticing that the other messed up. Ricciardo capitalized on his team-mate's mistake. Yet somehow some people ignore it, them beating one-another is suddenly proof of greatness. It will be interesting how they (Marko/Tost) will spin it and who will be a chosen one.

They may be better or not but this one race proved nothing.





#226 krapmeister

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 09:52

It didnt say it was Webber's fault, however Webber made contact with Hulkenberg on his inside which pushed him into Vergne who was going around his outside. Vergne wouldve been at the front of the Rosberg roadblock, rather than the back of it.


He might have, or he may have outbraked himself and run wide at T1 anyway - he was carrying a LOT of speed for him to run that far wide with just a glancing blow from Webber's front wheel...

#227 williams96

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:55

He might have, or he may have outbraked himself and run wide at T1 anyway - he was carrying a LOT of speed for him to run that far wide with just a glancing blow from Webber's front wheel...


:up:

Some people seem to be getting carried away and forgetting two things. Firstly, Ricciardo's debut was just as impressive jumping in a car mid season without the benefit of testing and being error free from the get go while learning very fast. Secondly Ricciardo was carrying damage from the start and clearly lacks nothing in determination or aggression when required.

#228 karne

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 11:08

:up:

Some people seem to be getting carried away and forgetting two things. Firstly, Ricciardo's debut was just as impressive jumping in a car mid season without the benefit of testing and being error free from the get go while learning very fast. Secondly Ricciardo was carrying damage from the start and clearly lacks nothing in determination or aggression when required.


:up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:


I thought Dan's race was much more impressive. But then, I've always been a fan of amazing, against-the-odds comeback drives.

#229 goingthedistance

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 11:16

He might have, or he may have outbraked himself and run wide at T1 anyway - he was carrying a LOT of speed for him to run that far wide with just a glancing blow from Webber's front wheel...


Yeah I thought it was poor form of Vergne to blame Webber for that. Having watched him in WSR Vergne is prone to over aggressive starts that get him in trouble. I like JEV, but wasn't too impressed by that. Guess he's drinking the Marko kool-aid.

#230 JimmyRecard

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 02:26

I get the impression that regardless of who wins the battle this year they are both super talents that will be on the grid for a long time to come. Having said that I really think Dan has the edge.

#231 Thunder143

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 02:55

I think it was only Vergne's first race and that he has more to show!

#232 Jaybools

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 07:35

Wow. Both boys showing very good pace - hopefully they'll be top of the midfield come race day. Does anyone know what tires everyone else was on? I know that McLaren were on the hards, but no clue about anyone else.

#233 krapmeister

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:58

Wow. Both boys showing very good pace - hopefully they'll be top of the midfield come race day. Does anyone know what tires everyone else was on? I know that McLaren were on the hards, but no clue about anyone else.


From Autosport FP2 report:

Ten minutes later the 2008 world champion was usurped by Schumacher's 1m38.533s on a low-fuel medium-tyre run. Hamilton re-emerged from the pits and banged in a response of 1m38.513s - also on mediums. He followed that up with a 1m38.172s.

Button was in there too with the sister McLaren, just two thousandths slower than Schumacher, the Briton having lost more time in P2 to a minor brake issue - he spent a period in the pits during P1 because of an oil leak.

Nico Rosberg was the quietest of this quartet, and almost unnoticed he snuck into fourth ahead of Ricciardo, whose best lap was set on mediums.


Edited by krapmeister, 23 March 2012 - 12:03.


#234 Jaybools

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:03

From Autosport FP2 report:


So worst case scenario dan is only 0.3 off a mercedes.. Right. Guess it's only practice.

#235 williams96

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 08:47

Going to be a difficult race for the Toro Rosso pair. Very close 13th-16th.

#236 marcoferrari

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 10:23

I think it was only Vergne's first race and that he has more to show!


As far as I remember Buemi finished as an impressive 7th in his first Formula One race and we all know where is he now...
Btw. I think Ricciardo made a good job in todays quali, but still he only managed to finish 15th!
So, where is the problem again - in drivers or in a poor car? I hope some will finally open their eyes...

#237 Sardukar

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 10:31

As far as I remember Buemi finished as an impressive 7th in his first Formula One race and we all know where is he now...
Btw. I think Ricciardo made a good job in todays quali, but still he only managed to finish 15th!
So, where is the problem again - in drivers or in a poor car? I hope some will finally open their eyes...


ricciardo showed more fight in 1 race than buemi and algusari during their entire time at TR. So as far as im concerned he's already better than them.

#238 marcoferrari

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 11:06

ricciardo showed more fight in 1 race than buemi and algusari during their entire time at TR. So as far as im concerned he's already better than them.


You have not followed those drivers closely as I and I know that you are a Ricciardo fan, so I can t take that reaction seriously... Hamilton also looks like a bigger fighter than Button, and? Important are results...

Edited by marcoferrari, 24 March 2012 - 11:12.


#239 goldenboy

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 15:53

ricciardo showed more fight in 1 race than buemi and algusari during their entire time at TR. So as far as im concerned he's already better than them.

thats a pretty crappy post.

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#240 Seanspeed

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 16:08

As far as I remember Buemi finished as an impressive 7th in his first Formula One race and we all know where is he now...
Btw. I think Ricciardo made a good job in todays quali, but still he only managed to finish 15th!
So, where is the problem again - in drivers or in a poor car? I hope some will finally open their eyes...

That 2009 Australian GP was not a normal race, though. Didn't it only have like 11 finishers?

To answer your question about the problem being drivers or car, it could be a bit of both. Its hard to tell when there's no Buemi or Alguersuari to judge them by. The midfield this year is tighter than it has been for a while. Lets wait til tomorrow, though. The car seems to have good race pace.

Edited by Seanspeed, 24 March 2012 - 16:09.


#241 Jaybools

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 08:32

Damn. Ricciardo getting the smackdown!

#242 Snic

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 08:51

Brundle on Vergne "His boots won't be wet, he can obviously walk on water"

#243 Jaybools

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 09:28

Dan lapping quicker now. Bloody red flag.

#244 danstheman

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 11:05

JEV did well on the intermediates early, then benefitted from the red flag with the free tyre change. Dan showed some good pace at the end there, was holding his own in front of Button.

JEV won this round, but hard to tell what everyone's pace is like with the rain affected race.

#245 jamiegc

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 11:36

Another mega start by Johnny V. Benefited with the free wet tyres and was lapping faster than Ricciardo in the middle of the race on an old set of inters with Ricciardo on a new set.

#246 Sardukar

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 11:53

Great drive by vergne to keep it together when it was really wet on the inters. Ricciardo did well in qualifying but in the race just didn't perform aswell as vergne. I am a bit worried about the overall pace of the torro rosso, but damn these 2 guys have a knack for grabbing points don't they.

#247 Jaybools

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 12:08

As it stands..

RACE

DR 1 - 1 JEV

QUALI

DR 2 - 0 JEV

#248 krapmeister

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 12:11

Have to say I was amazed at Vergne staying out on the inters before the red flag :up:

Dan seemed to have the pace at times but no match for JEV today...

#249 jamiegc

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 12:14

Great drive by vergne to keep it together when it was really wet on the inters. Ricciardo did well in qualifying but in the race just didn't perform aswell as vergne. I am a bit worried about the overall pace of the torro rosso, but damn these 2 guys have a knack for grabbing points don't they.


Vergne lost out at the pitstop by being sent around on the wet for a lap whilst Ricciardo was pitted for intermediates immediately and it allowed Di Resta to jump him who he spent the rest of the race watching the rear wing of.

#250 wattoroos

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 12:32

Very impressed with JEV, dan pitted quite oddly early on the inters but vergne did well good pace throughout the race he looks good