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Pirelli tyres in 2012


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#101 PretentiousBread

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 12:56

There is one problem with your theory. From 1991 -1998, Michael drove on Goodyear tyres, and was just as impressive as with Bridgestones. There was no performance increase. So that theory while convenient, has zero value. I am surprised at the need for all these fancy theories, and excuses for a guy who is 42. That is the only problem for him, and the rest stems from that.


I agree, Schumacher was amazing no matter what the regs/tyres/politics. Eddie Irvine acknowledged he didn't stand a chance against Schumacher not because of the structure around him but because he could smash unbelieveable lap times that he couldn't. Schumacher's 2nd career doesn't reveal any shortcomings of his first.

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#102 tkulla

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 13:35

There is one problem with your theory. From 1991 -1998, Michael drove on Goodyear tyres, and was just as impressive as with Bridgestones. There was no performance increase. So that theory while convenient, has zero value. I am surprised at the need for all these fancy theories, and excuses for a guy who is 42. That is the only problem for him, and the rest stems from that.


I'm not questioning Schumachers's talent - his two Benneton championships DO tell us he was a great driver. But it's the five Ferrari championships that put him on another level from 2-time champions like Hakkinen, Alonso or Vettel. Those five were a product of the team I mentioned, including Bridgestone. Any of those guys I just mentioned would have won those five championships in the same situation IMO, except that they were unable to build such a coalition (a testament to Schumacher's political skill).

The problem that we have with Schumacher from a historical perspective is that he never raced with a top-tier teammate in the same car, so we don't know how good he really was. Perhaps he would have blown Mika away in the same car, and if he had I'd be saying that MS is the greatest of all time. Once the Ferrrari "team" was established around him, it was impossible for a second tier driver like Rubens or Massa to build enough support around him to challenge his teammate.

So the only straight up comparisons we have is Verstappen in 1996 and Rosberg in 2010-2011. I hope that at some point we see Vettel take on another champ in the same car, because to me that's what will determine his greatness, not gaudy statistics.

#103 Bonaventura

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 13:40

IMO the Pirelli tyres are so special, that they just suit to certain drivers and their driving style
Other drivers will have more difficulties with them, that does not mean they are worse drivers, it's just that the tyres do not fit to them as well as to others

#104 Trust

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 13:42

IMO the Pirelli tyres are so special, that they just suit to certain drivers and their driving style
Other drivers will have more difficulties with them, that does not mean they are worse drivers, it's just that the tyres do not fit to them as well as to others

Or other drivers are able to adapt better.

#105 Bonaventura

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 13:47

Or other drivers are able to adapt better.

Or they do not need to adapt so much
if something goes against your natural style it's always a hinderance regardless how well someone can adapt.
Like I said earlier you can learn very well learn to write with your left hand if you are a right hander, but it will be never as good as with your right hand.

#106 valachus

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 14:16

In order to understand more about what the 2011 season was about one has first to just listen to this - - amateur footage from Monza and then again listen to this - - onboard with Vettel doing his magic on the same circuit. So magic that the sound is completely different. Perhaps I have hearing problems? Actually, until seeing the first clip I'm sure I had never heard that specific sound at all, and especially on TV, neither from the trackside shots nor from the onboards. The only explanation I can think of is that sound filters were definitely applied on TV feeds so that the commentators don't feel compelled to explain to the great unwashed that "so... that's the sound of the driver taking its foot off the throttle and the car taking control." Just like magic. Or Matrix - "there is no EBD". There was little driving in F1 this year - and a lot of passenger miles :lol: "Pirelli tyres are excellent, pay no attention to the cars that stay in the garages during quali sessions".

EDIT sorry, had posted the same video twice. Rectified now.

Edited by valachus, 23 December 2011 - 14:25.


#107 Wi000

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 14:41

In order to understand more about what the 2011 season was about one has first to just listen to this - - amateur footage from Monza and then again listen to this - - onboard with Vettel doing his magic on the same circuit. So magic that the sound is completely different.

F1 cars sound different onboard than from the stands. shocking :rolleyes:
Btw this is the 2012 tyre thread.

#108 sofarapartguy

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 15:00

I wonder if this thread would have existed, hadn't Lewis had such an awful season.

Edited by sofarapartguy, 23 December 2011 - 15:01.


#109 jamiegc

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 15:38

I wonder if this thread would have existed, hadn't Lewis had such an awful season.


No it wouldn't.

#110 Peter Perfect

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 17:50

Or they do not need to adapt so much
if something goes against your natural style it's always a hinderance regardless how well someone can adapt.
Like I said earlier you can learn very well learn to write with your left hand if you are a right hander, but it will be never as good as with your right hand.


True, but then that's always been the case for tyres and every other piece of equipment in F1. You could argue the same for the natural characteristics of a car/how the car responds to setup changes/brakes/engine/... the list is endless. The lucky drivers don't have to change their driving style, the good drivers adapt and the unlucky/bad drivers suffer.

#111 IsometricBacon

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 23:48

I'm not questioning Schumachers's talent -


You definately are. You said a main reason for his success was specially made tyres that suited him.

his two Benneton championships DO tell us he was a great driver. But it's the five Ferrari championships that put him on another level from 2-time champions like Hakkinen, Alonso or Vettel. Those five were a product of the team I mentioned, including Bridgestone. Any of those guys I just mentioned would have won those five championships in the same situation IMO, except that they were unable to build such a coalition (a testament to Schumacher's political skill).


Well, if your saying Michaels dominance came from having the best package, I would agree, because even a great driver needs the best package do dominate to that level, BUT, we are talking about his current lack of performance, relative to his team mate, and my point is this has nothing to do with, ross, rory and bridgestone, because he was just as fast without them from 91-98.

The problem that we have with Schumacher from a historical perspective is that he never raced with a top-tier teammate in the same car, so we don't know how good he really was..


Half true, but he proved himself by matching and beating Mika is a clearly slower car in 98-00, so he ultimately did prove how good he was.

So the only straight up comparisons we have is Verstappen in 1996 and Rosberg in 2010-2011. I hope that at some point we see Vettel take on another champ in the same car, because to me that's what will determine his greatness, not gaudy statistics.


Plus rubens and massa. They had the same cars as him so they had the chance to show their speed.

#112 RedOne

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 12:01

No it wouldn't.


:up:

#113 revlec

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 12:21

I wonder if this thread would have existed, hadn't Lewis had such an awful season.


You mean like in 2009? :)

Edited by revlec, 24 December 2011 - 12:22.


#114 Concorde

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 12:26

The lucky drivers don't have to change their driving style, the good drivers adapt and the unlucky/bad drivers suffer.

exactly :up:

#115 PretentiousBread

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 12:37

:wave:
If you haven't figured it by now I love defending as much as I do overtaking,these bubble gum tires allow neither in most cases. YES I AM a Ham fan but my highlights of the season were not any of his wins,it were #1 Schu/Ham battle and #2 Ham/Web battle.

That's the racing I prefer and I couldn't give a sh** who wins as long as it's decided by RACING and not TIRE SAVING. I invite you to my house so you can see for yourself I own ZERO Hamilton/McLaren memorabilia/hats/shirts etc,FFS enough of this 'you a LH fan' so that's why you......................

It's a cop out and takes away from the debate at hand.


True, and I've noticed seldom few can actually put forward any real argument against what you're saying other than that you're a Hamilton fan and the trite about tyre saving always being part of the game, which we already know and does not dispel your argument either. It's like saying "crime is up and the mayor needs ousted" and then someone turning around and saying "crime has always existed, quit whining".

Of course the people who are using your Hamilton fandom against you tend to be Button/Vettel fans, to which I would say "You're just defending these tyres because you're a Button/Vettel fan" and all of a sudden, who's more or less biased? Then hopefully we can return to the debate at hand without constant second guessing of what peoples' 'agendas' are. From what i've seen in this thread, the only person who has offered up a proper counter argument to yours is Tkulla, the rest have just had their aforementioned trite observations.

#116 rodlamas

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 12:46

To sum it up

Supersoft -> Stays the same as of 2011.
Soft -> Will become a tad softer in order to become just 0.6 away from supersoft.
Medium -> Will be the tire branded as soft in Brazil 2011.
Hard -> Will be make significantly softer so that it can be used more often.

#117 seahawk

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 13:04

Lots of MSC´s success was down to his work ethics. If he could not get the grip of a new tire, he would drive around the test track from first to last light as long as it took to make the tires work. He never was one of those guys who adjusted naturally to changing conditions, but he was one of the drivers who would give the extra effort, to solve a problem. Even if it took countless hours on the test track.

Today testing is limited and this approach is impossible.

#118 xtremespeedjunkie

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 14:22

Pirelli should take the opinion of Lewis Hamilton fans to design their 2012 tires cos at-least then they would stop blaming the tires each time Button beats Hamilton  ;)

#119 pingu666

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 15:44

Lots of MSC´s success was down to his work ethics. If he could not get the grip of a new tire, he would drive around the test track from first to last light as long as it took to make the tires work. He never was one of those guys who adjusted naturally to changing conditions, but he was one of the drivers who would give the extra effort, to solve a problem. Even if it took countless hours on the test track.

Today testing is limited and this approach is impossible.


there was also a range of tyres and customability during the tyre wars, if you didnt like something on the tyre, that was fixable. now it isnt.



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#120 puxanando

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:00

Pirelli will present the new weels for 2012 on 25 january in yas marinas!
HERE

Edited by puxanando, 12 January 2012 - 12:02.


#121 PretentiousBread

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:11

Pirelli will present the new weels for 2012 on 25 january in yas marinas!
HERE


I'm quietly optimistic about these tyres. I don't think it is Pirelli's intention to make the tyres as rubbish as they are, but rather that this is a byproduct of their stiff (safe) construction. I'm hoping their thoughts are more in line with mine outlined in the OP.

#122 jrg19

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 23:06

http://www.youtube.c...layer_embedded#!

paul hembery on 2012

#123 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 23:43

I kind of like that. The problem is the masses and the powers that be do not define that as particularly "racey" - they like the overtakes which are generated by the new-old tyre differential.

Precisely :up: so-called "perfect" tyres which don't wear out (even if the anti-Buttons in the field want to slide them in every corner) does not allow a Sauber on new tyres to pass a Ferrari on stuffed tyres. A gap of only 0.5s slower / 10 laps instead of 2.5s slower / 10 laps is a very different factor in the race.

The current style tyres do allow such passes, and it makes for more action.

Remember the close racing created (with many rich works teams) in 2008 is gone... the underfunded midfield teams are FAR behind leading teams now. In '08 no way Webber or Massa could qualify top 5 with a gap of 0.5s to their team-mate... in that season it would put them around 12th or 14th.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 12 January 2012 - 23:45.


#124 Sakae

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 00:03

http://www.youtube.c...layer_embedded#!

paul hembery on 2012

Just terrible, and painful to listen to it. We now have tire-spec designed by Whitmarsh?

#125 revlec

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 02:02

Precisely :up: so-called "perfect" tyres which don't wear out (even if the anti-Buttons in the field want to slide them in every corner) does not allow a Sauber on new tyres to pass a Ferrari on stuffed tyres. A gap of only 0.5s slower / 10 laps instead of 2.5s slower / 10 laps is a very different factor in the race.

The current style tyres do allow such passes, and it makes for more action.


Sato on Alonso (Canada 2007)
Heidfeld on Alonso (I don't remember if Bahrain 2007 or Fuji 2007)
Kobayashi on Alonso (Valencia 2010)
Barrichello on Schumacher (Hungary 2010)

and many others - in particular against Massa in 2010 - i don't remember now..

All with Bridgestone tyres. Could you imagine a race like Turkey 2010 with these Pirelli tyres? the answer is NO. For example, both Hamilton and Button did destroy their race in Turkey 2011 as soon as they started to race each other.

Alonso was unlucky in 2010 because with Pirelli tyres and DRS in place, Petrov would have had no chance against him, and he would have been 3xWDC by now.

So i prefer Bridgestone type of tyre where you can properly defend your position without destroying them in 5 laps. (The only exception last year was Barcellona 2011 where Vettel with older Pirelli tyres was still capable to defend his position against Hamilton).

Edited by revlec, 13 January 2012 - 08:48.


#126 Mastah

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 06:43

https://twitter.com/#!/NobleF1/status/1...5/photo/1/large

Inters will have green markings, while wets will be blue.

#127 FredrikB

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 06:48

According to Viasat Motor in Sweden, Vitaly Petrov has been hired by Pirelli.

Are they going to use the old Toyota or have they bought a new car?

#128 Rentta

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 07:08

According to Viasat Motor in Sweden, Vitaly Petrov has been hired by Pirelli.

Are they going to use the old Toyota or have they bought a new car?



Joe Saward

Petrov and Pirelli
January 25, 2012 by Joe Saward
It was something of a surprise to see Vitaly Petrov at the Pirelli media event in Abu Dhabi, leading to speculation that the Russian may end up being the Pirelli test driver in 2012. Petrov is believed to also be talking to Caterham with a view to take over from Jarno Trulli, although the Italian has no intention of ending his F1 career.

When asked if Petrov might become the Pirelli test driver, Pirelli’s F1 boss Paul Hembery dodged the question.

http://joesaward.wor...ov-and-pirelli/

#129 pingu666

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 07:22

it was in racecar engineering, think they said the old pirelli car is now in a museum, and they want a 2011 spec car for testing...

#130 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 08:31

it was in racecar engineering, think they said the old pirelli car is now in a museum, and they want a 2011 spec car for testing...


The problem is rumoured to be the infighting amongst the teams. Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes do not want to see any of their direct competitors running a car as a test mule, due to the advantage they will get by understanding the tyres first hand. Despite all the data being shared openly and equally amongst the teams, there is a big difference experiencing the tyres first hand, compared to getting the information in raw data/numbers. The same problem is occurring with the midfield teams. Lotus-Renault, Sauber, Toro Rosso, Force India, Williams and Caterham, are also reluctant to see any of their midfield competitors use one of their cars as a test mule, exactly for the same reasons as the top teams. This is leaving Pirelli with a few problems, as test dates etc have to be finalized.


#131 Gintonious

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 09:25

I still hate the tyre markings, the "Pirelli" looks very wrong like that, not sure about the new word on the wets either.

#132 F1McLarenFan

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 09:48

Gallery of the new tyres.



#133 Sakae

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 10:24

Pirelli's motorsport director Paul Hembery said: "We have had to make changes and the objective of those changes is to make the racing closer.

This statement could use an explanation.

#134 muramasa

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 10:28

Sato on Alonso (Canada 2007)
Heidfeld on Alonso (I don't remember if Bahrain 2007 or Fuji 2007)
Kobayashi on Alonso (Valencia 2010)
Barrichello on Schumacher (Hungary 2010)

and many others - in particular against Massa in 2010 - i don't remember now..

All with Bridgestone tyres. Could you imagine a race like Turkey 2010 with these Pirelli tyres? the answer is NO. For example, both Hamilton and Button did destroy their race in Turkey 2011 as soon as they started to race each other.

Alonso was unlucky in 2010 because with Pirelli tyres and DRS in place, Petrov would have had no chance against him, and he would have been 3xWDC by now.

So i prefer Bridgestone type of tyre where you can properly defend your position without destroying them in 5 laps. (The only exception last year was Barcellona 2011 where Vettel with older Pirelli tyres was still capable to defend his position against Hamilton).

Good points.

I dont prefer either tyre over the other (I regard it just as "different"), but I think Bridgestone pulled out of F1 at the worst possible timing, publicity wise. I think '11 with Bridgestone tyres wouldve been as exciting, probably more solid and easier to recognize each drivers position (not saying Pirelli was worse or anything, just in case).

People are so easy to forget that performance difference between cars were extremely close towards late 00s. Especially 08 and 09 the field was extremely tight, we often saw 1sec covered top 10, or 15 cars in quali. And 2010 cars were quite difficult to overtake due to sophisticated multiple deck diffuser (also blown diffuser) + front wing, as well as F-duct.

as soon as we saw sudden increase in numbers of overtakings in 2011, everyone was quick to dis Bridgestone without even thinking...forgetting about various factors such as DRS and KERS, and DDD ban. Even with Pirelli tyres Valencia and Abu Dhabi was as boring and still quite difficult to overtake, and drivers were still struggling with handling when get close behind the other car, due to the loss of downforce from front wing, which is so complicated and sensitive now. As pointed out, perfromance difference between Bridgestone's prime and option, and between new and old, was big enough, as demonstrated by Kobayashi/Valencia '10, Kubica/Singapore '10, to name just a few. Also it produced good battle in 2010 when condition and circumstance was right, eg Canada, Turkey, Spa etc. Issue was clearly on chassis side, not on tyres.



#135 FredrikB

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 10:32

But do they really need to have their own car for development?
It was understandable during initial development, but now they have both experience and a lot of cars running on their tyres.

If the teams don't want to let go of a car. Set up several testdays dedicated to tyre development for all the teams. No new parts can be tested. Any team that complains about the cost of such a test may stay at home...

#136 jrg19

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 16:29

Paul from twitter: to explain the almost black Hard tyre marking , it will be used rarely and only with Medium white which is easily visible.

#137 fieraku

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 20:44

This statement could use an explanation.

Look at it this way.

With the real tires drivers pushed like hell and there were HUGE gaps in the field,now with these tires they want the drivers limp around saving them thus they'll be closer to e/o,since if you push like hell will be detrimental to the tires,meaning driver speed is tire limited,if we agree that all drivers aren't equally fast.

It will make for one hell of a show.

#138 ashnathan

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 21:40

i really dont understand the silver markings, really, why can't they just use purple for the hard tyre or something, purple would work fine, or orange, you can barely see the silver it just doesn't make sense to me all the other colours stand out great cos they are bright, then they use 'silver' that is almost the same as the tyre and worse when rotating.

#139 Sakae

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 00:51

Pirelli's motorsport director Paul Hembery said: "We have had to make changes and the objective of those changes is to make the racing closer.


Look at it this way.

With the real tires drivers pushed like hell and there were HUGE gaps in the field,now with these tires they want the drivers limp around saving them thus they'll be closer to e/o,since if you push like hell will be detrimental to the tires,meaning driver speed is tire limited,if we agree that all drivers aren't equally fast.

It will make for one hell of a show.

I think what you are saying is, that Vettel is too fast for Mr. Paul Hembery, and little help for Lui by slowing Seb will be the "good thing" for F1 in general. Wonderful.

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#140 fieraku

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 01:28

I think what you are saying is, that Vettel is too fast for Mr. Paul Hembery, and little help for Lui by slowing Seb will be the "good thing" for F1 in general. Wonderful.

Absolutely! If there were no engine/gearbox restrictions and Pirellis the RB7 in the right hands could lap everyone going flat out for 60 laps.Followed by the Macs and so forth.There'd be massive gaps on the track.
And that's what he means by what he said,exactly that.Trying to bring them closer together.

#141 xtremespeedjunkie

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 05:02

Hamilton's contract is not sorted . Got beaten by his team-mate by a whopping 40 points . The last thing he wanted to hear- more aggressive tires with shorter life span .If he struggled to cope last year , this year would be fun to see him show his rallying skills in a F1 car. Button must be chuffed to death hearing this news.

Edited by xtremespeedjunkie, 26 January 2012 - 05:04.


#142 gricey1981

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 05:16

Hamilton's contract is not sorted . Got beaten by his team-mate by a whopping 40 points . The last thing he wanted to hear- more aggressive tires with shorter life span .If he struggled to cope last year , this year would be fun to see him show his rallying skills in a F1 car. Button must be chuffed to death hearing this news.


he didnt really have a problem with the tires. It was the crashing into people that was the issue really.

#143 krea

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 05:51

he didnt really have a problem with the tires. It was the crashing into people that was the issue really.


Hamiltons carrer in the nutshell

#144 Andy35

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 06:07

i really dont understand the silver markings, really, why can't they just use purple for the hard tyre or something, purple would work fine, or orange, you can barely see the silver it just doesn't make sense to me all the other colours stand out great cos they are bright, then they use 'silver' that is almost the same as the tyre and worse when rotating.



Me neither, I would simply have the full wets as silver and move the blue to the slicks. If it's wet enough for full wets you will not be wondering whether the tyre is silver or white, you will know!

With blue on the slicks you could have the tyres like squash ball coloured dots.

yellow = hard
white = medium
red = soft
blue = super soft.


Andy


#145 xtremespeedjunkie

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 06:59

he didnt really have a problem with the tires. It was the crashing into people that was the issue really.


He did mate.. Hamilton always was found moaning about worn out tires after a handful of lap on the radio all season.

Edited by xtremespeedjunkie, 26 January 2012 - 07:00.


#146 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 08:48

Are they going to use the old Toyota or have they bought a new car?


http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/97110

#147 jrg19

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 15:22



Pirelli explains 2012 tyres

#148 PNSD

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 15:25

He did mate.. Hamilton always was found moaning about worn out tires after a handful of lap on the radio all season.


You will find as many JB quotes and Vettel quotes.

Don't make it a bigger issue than it was. Lewis is a racing driver, a top class racing driver, a world champion. He would not be any of those things if he could not adapt to tyres. Lewis fans make out he is God, yet half of them still want to blame Pirelli for an up and down 2011 season.

#149 maverick69

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 15:25

Hamiltons carrer in the nutshell


What? Winning every category he has been in?

Yeah. Shit job!

#150 maverick69

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 15:28

Re. the tyres.

They have been "squared up" so you can lean on them more this year. That means that actually going flat out and chewing an extra set may very much be the quickest way to complete a Grand Prix.

Food for thought..........