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#4301 discover23

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:16

About that post by wrcva, I never felt Montoya and Mclaren were a perfect match. His personality is not such that is typically successful at Mclaren. Excluding his WDC celebration, when he took a pole position or a win, he was greeted in a friendly but not in an ecstatic way.

I'm not saying that wrcva has everything correct but after Montoya's shoulder accident early in 2005 it really seemed like Mclaren's attitude towards Montoya changed from friendly to chilly. Montoya always said he doesn't care (about everything really :p ) but in this case I'm willing to believe that pressure and chilly treatment within the team, in addition to having his setup/car development wishes ignored, really did upset him enough to hamper his races, as well as result in a few mistakes, such as at Canada.


Is this the real reason why Kimi could not beat Massa Montoya could not beat Kimi ... ?
should we try another driver next?

About that post by wrcva, I never felt Alonso and Mclaren were a perfect match. His personality is not such that is typically successful at Mclaren. Excluding his WDC celebration, when he took a pole position or a win, he was greeted in a friendly but not in an ecstatic way.

I'm not saying that wrcva has everything correct but after Alonso/Mclaren's Hungary incident in 2007 it really seemed like Mclaren's attitude towards Alonso changed from friendly to chilly. Alonso always said he doesn't care (about everything really :p ) but in this case I'm willing to believe that pressure and chilly treatment within the team, in addition to having his setup/car development wishes ignored, really did upset him enough to hamper his races, as well as result in a few mistakes, such as at Japan.


Edited by discover23, 04 April 2012 - 20:28.


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#4302 Birelman

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:20

Is this the real reason why Kimi could not beat Massa Montoya could not beat Kimi ... ?
should we try another driver next?

So, what are you saying, that Pedro De La Rosa pushed Montoya out of his seat at McLaren, that's why he replaced Montoya? :drunk:

Dang Santander money!!!! :lol:

#4303 LaoTze

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:21

Is this the real reason why Kimi could not beat Massa Montoya could not beat Kimi ... ?
should we try another driver next?


Troll... Move along people nothing to see here.

#4304 wrcva

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:22

Obviously from my avatar I'm a Ferrari & Alonso supporter. However I really like Kimi. I think he is & has been one of the best. I've said in this thread already I expect him to win races this year. But all of this Ferrari stuff is getting kind of old, and many Kimi fans agree. I will stipulate that the way the Ferrari fiasco went down wasn't great. I will definitely say Kimi handled it like the true professional he is. To be fair I will also say he was heavily compensated for it. It's also a testament to his integrity & character than he hasn't spoken Ill words towards Ferrari. Some people in here should take a cue from Kimi.

Of course Kimi fans don't like what happened, I'm sure he didn't either. But the bottom line is F1 is a business. A very cut-throat business. Kimi understands this ans is the reason why you don't hear him bitching about what happened. He's moved on, and I'm glad he has. Now he has a chance to make Ferrari regret their decision. But is there any sense in rehashing it over & over again? Don't get me wrong I understand some people will be sour about what happened forever. But the point is he's moved on from it, so should many here. It also does nothing but incite fans from both camps to go back & forth and only serves to muck up the thread making it difficult to find interesting relevant discussion on the reason why we all visited this particular thread.

Back on topic: I'm not sure if those shampoo pictures are legit but it seems they probably are. People from the states(celebrities) do all sorts of adverts for Asia & Japan that they wouldn't normally do at home. Anywho, I'm hoping for a "normal" race as many here so we can see what the E20 & Kimi have. I think if GRO can Quali 2nd than Kimi can Quali 1st or 2nd. He's definitely faster than the kid. Bad luck so far this year but it will turn around.

:up:

#4305 MaranelloSnowStorm

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:23

Why Kimi was not on top of his game in 2008?

Here is what I think (little research project):

The period between April-July 2008 is probably one of the worse periods not only in Kimi's F1 career but probably in his life. All his life he and his family believed in hard work and doing their best to achieve good things on merit. In Kimi's case this means putting his natural talents to best use in performing, and winning races...

Backdrop for 2008... The guy just won WDC the previous year, and he is already leading in points 4 races into the 2008 season. Life is good...

(April 27 2008), FIA post-race press conf after winning Spain -- Kimi - “It was a perfect weekend for us in Barcelona,” explained Raikkonen. “We were going really fast all the time and we didn't have the slightest problem. Many times I have won and afterwards still had the feeling that it could have gone better. This time I did not have that feeling: this was probably the best weekend I've ever had in my career.

the guy won Spain just 3 days ago... then, all of a sudden PR stuff & "rumors" kicked in... I am not sure who started them but the mission was to melt the iceman because it would be a terrible PR to get rid of a 2 times WDC, in the event that he managed to win the 2nd one in 2008. In the following, partially narrated timeline I tried to put the main news item with the earliest appox. date of first showing up (in google news based on article posting date) out of 100s or 1000s regurgitated ones for each item... they give a good glimpse into what was in Kimi's mind as he was facing psychological PR war, aside from racing issues during 2008... also pay attention to all dates because technically none of these supposedly happened in 2008, but in 2009... :drunk: :confused:

May, 1 2008 -- LdM:Massa's future with the team is secure. It will be too damaging to partner Alonso with Kimi. Keke Rosberg:Kimi has to make way for Alonso... Dom:Kimi is motivated from head to toe, and I know he is not thinking about retiring." here.
note: you can tell, they have been talking about Santander coming in as the new long term sponsor but the plan is to not to talk about it externally... this is the first time appearance of Kimi's "motivation" by Dom. It is not yet used in a negative way but it is a crucial PR keyword because at this point they cannot start talking about Kimi's performance... as he is in the lead, but this is the decision point that he has to go. Also note the disconnect between LdM & Dom's statements. Yes, the date is correct May 1 2008, and instead of talking about the win 3 days ago they are forced to answer questions about driver line-up.

May, 8 2008 -- Niki Lauda "Last year Raikkonen was champion and now he is number one. Why must we now discuss whether Alonso is going to go there? They already have the perfect team with Massa, so why should they bang their heads together?"
Note:this is an honest statement by Lauda wondering WTF is going on... as there is significant chatter inside the F1 world... here

May, 24 2008 -- Alonso signs for Ferrari -- The word in the F1 paddock in Monte Carlo is that Fernando Alonso has just inked a deal to drive for Ferrari in 2010. No confirmation is expected for a year, and there may be denials of any arrangement, as there would obviously be some serious knock-on effects for other parties in the F1 paddock. here
Note: Spanish press is going nuts over this as well .. use google news with date filters. Emphasis: do not confirm and deny until next year -- which they did...

June, 6 2008 -- FIA interview -- Kimi: “I still have a contract until the end of next year,” Raikkonen said during the press conference ahead of the Canadian Grand Prix at the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve on Thursday. “I haven’t made any decision as to whether I will keep going or not. That’s the last contract I have and we will wait and see during this year and next year what happens.” “I haven’t made my mind up and we will see.”
Note: (this is the GP Ham rear ended Kimi) -- why would this contract issue come up in the FIA press conference? ...you can tell internal discussions about his departure is well underway... yet we are only 7 races into the season...

July, 10 2008 -- July 10 2008 -- According to popular German magazine Sport Bild, it would seem that Spanish bank Santander would be moving from sponsoring McLaren to become one of Ferrari’s top sponsors from 2009 onwards. The big bank would have their adverts on the front and rear wings, alongside lettering on the drivers overalls. Ferrari have been touting for a new top sponsor since cigarette advertisers were not allowed in many countries, Marlboro being the major backer for many years. With a contract with Marlboro still in place, hash markings would still be on the cars. For the Scuderia though, Santander have said the major condition of their deal is that former World Champion Fernando Alonso would drive for the team. He won’t confirm his future, and will not comment until September. here
Note: Santander-Ferrari-Alonso deal is done but negotiations with Kimi are in full force... look at the desired date for the sponsorship... Now, how did Alonso come up with that September date , unless he did read Kimi's contract and familiar with the performance / and renewal options Kimi could exercise??? That is an accidental slip up by him because September date was significant only to Kimi's contract. He cannot comment on what will happen because they do not know what Kimi will do yet... as Ferrari is still negotiating :rotfl: (see Sep 12 news, in the following)...

Aug, 3 2008 FIA post-race int. Hungary -- Q: People are talking about you retiring, not necessarily at the end of this year but at the end of next year. Are there any thoughts on that?
KR: I never said anything like that. I only said that I have a contract until the end of next year and then somebody made up that I will stop at the end of this year or the end of next year, but I never said that.
Note: Guess who is propagating retirement rumors? This is a pretty major PR war against Kimi... and they are wearing him out. you know, all by itself, it is pretty hard to fight for WDC when you have full support from the team...

Aug, 24 2008 FIA post-race int. -- Massa -- “My win in Valencia moves me ahead of Kimi into second place in the championship. I’ve been asked if I feel Ferrari should favour me for the title since there are just six races remaining. All I can say is that I want to keep winning, to keep beating not just my teammate (Kimi Raikkonen) but others too,” Massa was quoted as saying on the Ferrari website. The Brazilian, who is on 64 points, six behind the leader Lewis Hamilton, further added that he has got nothing to do with such decisions. “I just do the best possible job for the team and leave the rest to the management,” he added. Raikkonen is third on the table with 57 points. Meanwhile, Kimi has rubbished the claim that he lacks motivation. “Next week, we will go to Spa (venue of the next Grand Prix). I love this track. I will give it all to win again. If someone has doubt as far as my motivation is concerned: go ahead. I want to win. More than ever,” he said on the Ferrari website.
Note: Since April, Kimi's lack of motivation stories have been propagating into millions of articles, blog and forum posts... (google is your friend...). Motivation is the keyword because they still cannot talk about performance ...

Sep, 12 2008 -- Ferrari confirm Raikkonen to end of 2010 -- Ferrari have announced an extension to Kimi Raikkonen’s contract for a further two seasons, keeping the world champion with the Italian team until the end of 2010. With Raikkonen’s team mate Felipe Massa also under contract for that period, it means Ferrari’s race line-up will remain unchanged until at least the start of their 2011 campaign. Raikkonen joined Ferrari from McLaren last season, while Massa has been with the team since 2006. The announcement should end media speculation suggesting that Raikkonen may retire at the end of this season. here
Note: This is a automatic contract renewal option Kimi is exercising to increase the Santander/Ferrari payout based on exceeding his performance benchmarks on his contract. He knows he is done with Ferrari... and if he could find a way, he could have left by the end of 2008... he is loosing the PR war, but trying to secure finances in negotiations...

Sep, 14 2008 -- FIA post race int. Monza -- Raikkonen. ““You don't have to be Einstein to understand that this is not the right way to fight for the title, It's not over yet, but now it will take a miracle, like one that makes lightning strike twice.
Note: he is not just talking about racing here... even though he is still within mathematical possibility with 4 races left in the calendar (he is 20 pts behind Massa), better odds than 2007; he is up to his neck in the swamp trying to fight/fend off elegators in multiple fronts,
1) Santander/Ferrari lawyers ...
2) His relationship with Michael... it was never emphasized in 2008 but I think it was a very significant issue... For 2008, Michael's role was, per LdM: "official 3rd driver, in charge of car development". See footnote 1 (and check out Michael's Ferrari and wiki profile for his role in 2008). Kimi did not like this at all because Michael was in charge of something (the car itself) he has been used to controlling/influencing all his career.
3) Pressure from LdM and Dom to help out Massa because if Massa wins 2008 WDC, Santander will be thrilled given their upcoming 2009 IPO in Brasil -- IMO, Dom or LdM never mandated this, but they highly encouraged Kimi to fall back because financial implications for Santander, the future sponsor, was in Billions of $ (not Millions, it is Billions) because Massa is a native son of Brasil who can mobilize local investors even better than Alonso... here. In the end, Santander's IPO gains were about $9 Billion. See footnote 2

Sep, 24 2008 - Pitpass --Spanish media is claiming that Ferrari's recent decision to re-sign Kimi Raikkonen until the end of 2010, is a smokescreen, aimed at putting everyone off the real story, which sees Fernando Alonso heading to Maranello as early as next year. Spanish newspaper Marca claims that Santander, which headed to McLaren with Fernando Alonso in 2007, is behind a move which will see the two-time champion join Felipe Massa. The Spanish banking giant is due to take its account to Ferrari next year, and, having lost out when Alonso quit McLaren after just one season, wants its national hero back on board and in a winning (red) car. It's claimed that the bank will not only meet Alonso's financial requirements but will also meet any compensation demanded by Raikkonen. It is fair to say that the announcement that Raikkonen is to stay with Ferrari for two more years caught many by surprise, especially since the Finn appears to have lost his sparkle in recent months, a situation not helped by the fact that he is now almost certain - barring a miracle recovery - of having to play second fiddle to his Brazilian teammate. While several teams, most notably Honda, have been wooing Alonso, the Spaniard needs to be back in a winning car, and other than BMW - which is backed by Santander's rival Credit Suisse - Ferrari appears to be the only option. --
Note: looks like negotiations for buying out 2009 failed, probably to Kimi's dismay -- from here on it is a Cold War in the team and Kimi is unofficial #2 by corporate decision because they still need to ramp up Massa's standing in Brasil for the upcoming IPO. The only thing they could not foresee is Massa's accident in 2009. Kimi's departure was a done deal as early as May, 25 2008, latest Sep 14 2008. They just had to make sure he did not accidently win 2008 WDC as Ferrari would have looked really stupid... Very curious about that pit screw up in Monaco, if it was real or orchestrated because this is where it all started, it is a milestone event for things starting to go wrong for Kimi for the rest of the year, along with some unlucky situations.



That is why, Kimi always said "There are many reasons. In F1 there is always a lot of money and there can always be different options. That’s what happened in the end. It’s nothing to do with racing or what I do in the team.

In short, Kimi was in the wrong team, at the wrong time stuck between Ferrari and future sponsor Santander, because he had the wrong nationality (the Latin lineup), relative to Santander's business plans, and Ferrari's role within, IMHO. What I do not understand is how the journos/media could not connect these dots to show what really went on in 2008. You do not have to do any major investigation because pretty much everything is in the public domain. While I understand all commercial pressures on the racing business, 2008-9 was anything but sporting for Ferrari. They should have just let him go after 2007 instead of playing all kinds of games, and engaging in a PR war to give it an appearance of performance problems. I suspect, even Massa will not bet against Kimi's performance this year, or when he appear to beat him back in 2008-9 as he knows what the deal was relative to his role within the Santander world. I think Kimi understood the business aspect of the issues, and in line with his character never washed any dirty Ferrari laundry in public. Yes, he did have several unlucky situations but his faith was already signed and sealed mid season 2008 purely for business reasons. 2009 was essentially continuation of the 2008 theatrics until Massa's accident. On another front, almost identical scenario (to Santander-Massa-Brasil situation) is in play for Perez in the red car -- Perez-Santander-Mexico, from the same playbook.

This is an opinion piece -- no yelling is necessary.

Footnotes.
1) As to how things evolved with the car I am not totally sure but the person who had a front seat was Chris Dyer.
"We had a tough and a hard season but Kimi did exactly the right thing within the team and everyone respected what he did and how he reacted to this situation. We had a fantastic car but unfortunately we made mistakes when thinking about what's best for our driver (Raikkonen)."
I believe the situation he is talking about is the Ferrari corporate decision to support Massa - not exactly sure when, but possibly Sep 24. (he was told that they have to do this because they are stuck with this request from Santander). I think "we made mistakes when thinking about what's best for our driver" bit is referring to Michael because I remember reading somewhere that Michael wanted Massa as the official feedback/debrief driver sometime around Monaco. I think all of Michael's initiatives were well intentioned organizational efficiency related enhancements trying to help Ferarri without favoring any driver but because he was closer to Massa probably Massa benefited more from them... If you recall, recently Kimi said there was only one person at Ferrari he did not like... he did not name that person but I believe it is Michael, because Michael was officially in charge of the car. I think he was/is on good terms with Dom and LdM because he understood the Ferrari business situation that he could not control but Michael was in charge of something (the car itself) he has been used to controlling all his career... in any event, this area - Michael's role -- needs more research because it is mostly opinions. I suspect Dyer will talk or imply after his departure mid year...

2) Massa was at the right place, at the right time and with the right Sponsor, given his nationality. In fact Botin personally made sure Massa was taken care of even before 2010 Ferrari sponsorship started (Massa-“I’m glad to get this support from Santander. Lately I met President Emilio Botin twice and he is absolutely excited about the potential of the Brazilian market...) Being Brasilian, going into the IPO Massa became the brand ambassador for the bank (read the last paragraph in the link relative to the date of the article. Alonso supposed to be in the list but not Massa, on that date) sometime during the summer of 2009, well before Santander-Ferrari relationship kicked in on Jan 1 2010 (Alonso has been the brand ambassador for Spain for a while). This was a direct Massa-Santander payroll relationship ~$5-7M per year. Fast forward to Nov 2011, Botin decided to personally fire him because he was upset with Massa for the results of 2010/2011 seasons. To understand the importance of Latin America to Santander just look at their annual reports. So, to those who have been wondering why Massa has been with Ferrari despite underperforming... because his nationality has been more important than his performance... ,and remember this stuff was not supposed to take place prior to Jan 1 2010... This area could use some more research -- journos: talk to some ex employee...


edits:typos +

Hopefully this kind of summary will contribute to closure (2008/9) so we can all move on... to 2012



he said, she said. :rotfl: thanks for the laugh. i would like to smoke what your smoking :stoned: santander control everything :clap:

#4306 MaranelloSnowStorm

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:24

So, what are you saying, that Pedro De La Rosa pushed Montoya out of his seat at McLaren, that's why he replaced Montoya? :drunk:

Dang Santander money!!!! :lol:


no, no vodafone didn't want kimi :rotfl:

#4307 MaranelloSnowStorm

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:27

About that post by wrcva, I never felt Kimi and Ferrari were a perfect match. His personality is not such that is typically successful at Ferrari. Excluding his WDC celebration, when he took a pole position or a win, he was greeted in a friendly but not in an ecstatic way.

I'm not saying that wrcva has everything correct but early in 2008 it really seemed like Ferrari's attitude towards Kimi changed from friendly to chilly. Kimi's always said he doesn't care (about everything really :p ) but in this case I'm willing to believe that pressure and chilly treatment within the team, in addition to having his setup/car development wishes ignored, really did upset him enough to hamper his races, as well as result in a few mistakes, such as at Singapore.



ferrari's biggest mistake was signing kimi, i knew it would end in tears when they announced it. three years they wasted :mad:

#4308 yr

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:32

he said, she said. :rotfl: thanks for the laugh. i would like to smoke what your smoking :stoned: santander control everything :clap:


Yeah, money and sponsors doesnt belong in the world of F1. Right. :rolleyes:

#4309 yr

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:36

ferrari's biggest mistake was signing kimi, i knew it would end in tears when they announced it. three years they wasted :mad:


It was a huge mistake, only 1 WDC and 2 WCCs during his time in Ferrari, they should have brought Alonso in already 2007, as he would have done so much better, he already has brought to Ferrari erm.. wait a minute...

Edited by yr, 04 April 2012 - 20:38.


#4310 swerved

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:39

Obviously from my avatar I'm a Ferrari & Alonso supporter. However I really like Kimi. I think he is & has been one of the best. I've said in this thread already I expect him to win races this year. But all of this Ferrari stuff is getting kind of old, and many Kimi fans agree. I will stipulate that the way the Ferrari fiasco went down wasn't great. I will definitely say Kimi handled it like the true professional he is. To be fair I will also say he was heavily compensated for it. It's also a testament to his integrity & character than he hasn't spoken Ill words towards Ferrari. Some people in here should take a cue from Kimi.

Of course Kimi fans don't like what happened, I'm sure he didn't either. But the bottom line is F1 is a business. A very cut-throat business. Kimi understands this ans is the reason why you don't hear him bitching about what happened. He's moved on, and I'm glad he has. Now he has a chance to make Ferrari regret their decision. But is there any sense in rehashing it over & over again? Don't get me wrong I understand some people will be sour about what happened forever. But the point is he's moved on from it, so should many here. It also does nothing but incite fans from both camps to go back & forth and only serves to muck up the thread making it difficult to find interesting relevant discussion on the reason why we all visited this particular thread.


Back on topic: I'm not sure if those shampoo pictures are legit but it seems they probably are. People from the states(celebrities) do all sorts of adverts for Asia & Japan that they wouldn't normally do at home. Anywho, I'm hoping for a "normal" race as many here so we can see what the E20 & Kimi have. I think if GRO can Quali 2nd than Kimi can Quali 1st or 2nd. He's definitely faster than the kid. Bad luck so far this year but it will turn around.



:up:


#4311 MaranelloSnowStorm

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:39

It was a huge mistake, only 1 WDC and 2 WCCs during his time in Ferrari, they should have brought Alonso in already 2008, as he would have done so much better, he already has brought to Ferrari erm.. wait a minute...


thanks to massa. ferrari team is not for someone like kimi, kimi was not a ferrari driver. he suits british teams. he should had stayed with mclaren

#4312 CharlieBrown

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:42

ferrari's biggest mistake was signing kimi, i knew it would end in tears when they announced it. three years they wasted :mad:

Why?

If anything Kimi only underlined Ferrari problems with car design and philosophy - heating tyres, qualie, hard compound + bad management (2008 could be Kimi's second title). The only thing I regret this BS contract for 2010. He should have gone back to mclaren and treat Lewis.

#4313 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:43

thanks to massa. ferrari team is not for someone like kimi, kimi was not a ferrari driver. he suits british teams. he should had stayed with mclaren



You may have had a point if you said thanks to Dominicalli.

#4314 MaranelloSnowStorm

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:43

Why?

If anything Kimi only underlined Ferrari problems with car design and philosophy - heating tyres, qualie, hard compound + bad management (2008 could be Kimi's second title). The only thing I regret this BS contract for 2010. He should have gone back to mclaren and treat Lewis.


kimi problem, not ferrari problem. :wave:

#4315 MaranelloSnowStorm

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:44

You may have had a point if you said thanks to Dominicalli.



getting rid of kimi, best decision he ever made :clap:

#4316 Zava

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:44

kimi problem, not ferrari problem. :wave:

sure, heating tyres and hard compounds last year were also Kimi's problems.
o wait...

#4317 yr

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:45

thanks to massa. ferrari team is not for someone like kimi, kimi was not a ferrari driver. he suits british teams. he should had stayed with mclaren


I thought Ferrari team is for Winners, not for characters? Oh well... perhaps that rumour about "all latin team" is correct after all, no matter if they are not winning any WDCs soon as long as they are all Latino. Good luck then.

#4318 Wander

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 20:47

ferrari's biggest mistake was signing kimi, i knew it would end in tears when they announced it. three years they wasted :mad:




getting rid of kimi, best decision he ever made


Troll alert!

Edited by Wander, 04 April 2012 - 20:48.


#4319 CharlieBrown

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 21:00

kimi problem, not ferrari problem. :wave:

Sure. That's why they sucked Baldiserri, Dyer, Iley, Costa, their motorist guy and now they proudly better team than in 2008. :up:

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#4320 rijole1

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 21:06

Thanks for an exellent post, wrcva :)

and

@JeePee - not sure me either which one..but definitely not COOL at all :lol:

#4321 Birelman

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 21:07

no, no vodafone didn't want kimi :rotfl:

Right! so they helped him beat Montoya! got it! :rotfl:

#4322 Birelman

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 21:09

kimi problem, not ferrari problem. :wave:


Right! Ferrari has no problems at all!!

lately they're the model of car design, engineering and development! they're kickin butt! :rotfl:

#4323 handel

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 21:11

Someone else posted this on the Gilles Villeneuve thread in order to outline why he disliked Peter Windsor but tbh I think it's a really good article and will be interesting for some here.

http://peterwindsor....s-driving-2012/

#4324 Trust

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 21:49

Obviously from my avatar I'm a Ferrari & Alonso supporter. However I really like Kimi. I think he is & has been one of the best. I've said in this thread already I expect him to win races this year. But all of this Ferrari stuff is getting kind of old, and many Kimi fans agree. I will stipulate that the way the Ferrari fiasco went down wasn't great. I will definitely say Kimi handled it like the true professional he is. To be fair I will also say he was heavily compensated for it. It's also a testament to his integrity & character than he hasn't spoken Ill words towards Ferrari. Some people in here should take a cue from Kimi.

Of course Kimi fans don't like what happened, I'm sure he didn't either. But the bottom line is F1 is a business. A very cut-throat business. Kimi understands this ans is the reason why you don't hear him bitching about what happened. He's moved on, and I'm glad he has. Now he has a chance to make Ferrari regret their decision. But is there any sense in rehashing it over & over again? Don't get me wrong I understand some people will be sour about what happened forever. But the point is he's moved on from it, so should many here. It also does nothing but incite fans from both camps to go back & forth and only serves to muck up the thread making it difficult to find interesting relevant discussion on the reason why we all visited this particular thread.


Back on topic: I'm not sure if those shampoo pictures are legit but it seems they probably are. People from the states(celebrities) do all sorts of adverts for Asia & Japan that they wouldn't normally do at home. Anywho, I'm hoping for a "normal" race as many here so we can see what the E20 & Kimi have. I think if GRO can Quali 2nd than Kimi can Quali 1st or 2nd. He's definitely faster than the kid. Bad luck so far this year but it will turn around.

:up:
One of few objective posters and one which is great to read.
People you should all move from Ferrari years. Kimi has a good car and can fight for the win in Lotus! Isn't that a good reason?

#4325 hammibal

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 21:56

So it was a massive conspiracy against kimi from ferrari and the press yeah that makes sense :stoned:
See i think he just struggled a bit with the car in 2008.
There's more evidence for that.
Its the most ridiculous thing i've read in a while, typical fanboy behaviour the world was agianst my driver that why his perfromance wasn't good.

They pay him a kings ransome to obtain his services, he wins the 2007 WDC and WCC for them in his first season, then after that they conspire to get rid of him? :stoned:

#4326 DrF

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 22:14

Obviously from my avatar I'm a Ferrari & Alonso supporter. However I really like Kimi. I think he is & has been one of the best. I've said in this thread already I expect him to win races this year. But all of this Ferrari stuff is getting kind of old, and many Kimi fans agree. I will stipulate that the way the Ferrari fiasco went down wasn't great. I will definitely say Kimi handled it like the true professional he is. To be fair I will also say he was heavily compensated for it. It's also a testament to his integrity & character than he hasn't spoken Ill words towards Ferrari. Some people in here should take a cue from Kimi.

Of course Kimi fans don't like what happened, I'm sure he didn't either. But the bottom line is F1 is a business. A very cut-throat business. Kimi understands this ans is the reason why you don't hear him bitching about what happened. He's moved on, and I'm glad he has. Now he has a chance to make Ferrari regret their decision. But is there any sense in rehashing it over & over again? Don't get me wrong I understand some people will be sour about what happened forever. But the point is he's moved on from it, so should many here. It also does nothing but incite fans from both camps to go back & forth and only serves to muck up the thread making it difficult to find interesting relevant discussion on the reason why we all visited this particular thread.

Yes! I second this. MOVE ON PEOPLE, NOTHING TO SEE.

#4327 Callisto

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 22:46

Obviously from my avatar I'm a Ferrari & Alonso supporter. However I really like Kimi. I think he is & has been one of the best. I've said in this thread already I expect him to win races this year. But all of this Ferrari stuff is getting kind of old, and many Kimi fans agree. I will stipulate that the way the Ferrari fiasco went down wasn't great. I will definitely say Kimi handled it like the true professional he is. To be fair I will also say he was heavily compensated for it. It's also a testament to his integrity & character than he hasn't spoken Ill words towards Ferrari. Some people in here should take a cue from Kimi.

Of course Kimi fans don't like what happened, I'm sure he didn't either. But the bottom line is F1 is a business. A very cut-throat business. Kimi understands this ans is the reason why you don't hear him bitching about what happened. He's moved on, and I'm glad he has. Now he has a chance to make Ferrari regret their decision. But is there any sense in rehashing it over & over again? Don't get me wrong I understand some people will be sour about what happened forever. But the point is he's moved on from it, so should many here. It also does nothing but incite fans from both camps to go back & forth and only serves to muck up the thread making it difficult to find interesting relevant discussion on the reason why we all visited this particular thread.


Back on topic: I'm not sure if those shampoo pictures are legit but it seems they probably are. People from the states(celebrities) do all sorts of adverts for Asia & Japan that they wouldn't normally do at home. Anywho, I'm hoping for a "normal" race as many here so we can see what the E20 & Kimi have. I think if GRO can Quali 2nd than Kimi can Quali 1st or 2nd. He's definitely faster than the kid. Bad luck so far this year but it will turn around.

:cool: :up:

#4328 Arska

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 22:54

Obviously from my avatar I'm a Ferrari & Alonso supporter. However I really like Kimi. I think he is & has been one of the best. I've said in this thread already I expect him to win races this year. But all of this Ferrari stuff is getting kind of old, and many Kimi fans agree. I will stipulate that the way the Ferrari fiasco went down wasn't great. I will definitely say Kimi handled it like the true professional he is. To be fair I will also say he was heavily compensated for it. It's also a testament to his integrity & character than he hasn't spoken Ill words towards Ferrari. Some people in here should take a cue from Kimi.

Of course Kimi fans don't like what happened, I'm sure he didn't either. But the bottom line is F1 is a business. A very cut-throat business. Kimi understands this ans is the reason why you don't hear him bitching about what happened. He's moved on, and I'm glad he has. Now he has a chance to make Ferrari regret their decision. But is there any sense in rehashing it over & over again? Don't get me wrong I understand some people will be sour about what happened forever. But the point is he's moved on from it, so should many here. It also does nothing but incite fans from both camps to go back & forth and only serves to muck up the thread making it difficult to find interesting relevant discussion on the reason why we all visited this particular thread.


This topic of Kimi's form slumping down in 2008 has not been exhaustively discussed, at least with wrcva's recent discoveries. So what do you think, did Ferrari support Kimi fully during all of 2008 or did something else happen? If something else, please describe how you saw it.

#4329 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 23:08

This topic of Kimi's form slumping down in 2008 has not been exhaustively discussed, at least with wrcva's recent discoveries. So what do you think, did Ferrari support Kimi fully during all of 2008 or did something else happen? If something else, please describe how you saw it.


I think it serves no purpose to discuss it other than to bring more negative comments into the thread which in turn makes it virtually impossible to read relevant info on Kimi 2012 which is what matters. Not 2008 or 2009.

#4330 Kimifinfan

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 23:19

ferrari's biggest mistake was signing kimi, i knew it would end in tears when they announced it. three years they wasted :mad:


It shows you know nothing, if Ferrari didn't think Kimi was the best driver why the hell did they extend his contract till 2010, and they did that in 2008

enough crap from you guys

I can't wait till the end of the season when Kimi will have more points then Alonso.....time to turn the page. :stoned:

Edited by Kimifinfan, 04 April 2012 - 23:22.


#4331 fabr68

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 23:35

It shows you know nothing, if Ferrari didn't think Kimi was the best driver why the hell did they extend his contract till 2010, and they did that in 2008

enough crap from you guys

I can't wait till the end of the season when Kimi will have more points then Alonso.....time to turn the page. :stoned:


Sorry Sherlock, but you can't have it both ways. Kimi extended his contract on his own to secure his finances, remember? Ferrari was secretly planning to get rid of him since the Summer of 2008. According to the tinfoil theories anyway.


#4332 shabz

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:26

kimi looks photoshoped quite a lot :rotfl:


+1 ...That forehead might not be his OWN.. lol..

#4333 Jape65

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 02:33

thanks to massa. ferrari team is not for someone like kimi, kimi was not a ferrari driver. he suits british teams. he should had stayed with mclaren


You right, Alonso ja Massa suits Ferrari better than Kimi , now they are more like Minardi :lol:


#4334 santababy

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 02:47

Kimi at Enstone.

Kimi visits Enstone for trying the new seating position Lotus is gonna have in 2013 and chatting with engineers about Chinese GP.


Kimi back at work! :clap:

Haha the myth that he's lazy & lack motivation. :rotfl:

So glad he is with a team that respect him. :up:

#4335 tommyhjortasen

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:05

Obviously from my avatar I'm a Ferrari & Alonso supporter. However I really like Kimi. I think he is & has been one of the best. I've said in this thread already I expect him to win races this year. But all the E20 & Kimi have. I think if GRO can Quali 2nd than Kimi can Quali 1st or 2nd. He's definitely faster than the kid. Bad luck so far this year but it will turn around.


One moore classpost.

Thank you!

Edited by tommyhjortasen, 05 April 2012 - 06:06.


#4336 pUs

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:38

getting rid of kimi, best decision he ever made :clap:


I agree, not a single title since then. Perfect decision, very fitting :up:

#4337 Jovanotti

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:39

Very nice gesture @CrucialXtreme, we need more posters like you :up:

#4338 Konsta

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:41

Obviously from my avatar I'm a Ferrari & Alonso supporter. However I really like Kimi. I think he is & has been one of the best. I've said in this thread already I expect him to win races this year. But all of this Ferrari stuff is getting kind of old, and many Kimi fans agree. I will stipulate that the way the Ferrari fiasco went down wasn't great. I will definitely say Kimi handled it like the true professional he is. To be fair I will also say he was heavily compensated for it. It's also a testament to his integrity & character than he hasn't spoken Ill words towards Ferrari. Some people in here should take a cue from Kimi.

Of course Kimi fans don't like what happened, I'm sure he didn't either. But the bottom line is F1 is a business. A very cut-throat business. Kimi understands this ans is the reason why you don't hear him bitching about what happened. He's moved on, and I'm glad he has. Now he has a chance to make Ferrari regret their decision. But is there any sense in rehashing it over & over again? Don't get me wrong I understand some people will be sour about what happened forever. But the point is he's moved on from it, so should many here. It also does nothing but incite fans from both camps to go back & forth and only serves to muck up the thread making it difficult to find interesting relevant discussion on the reason why we all visited this particular thread.


Back on topic: I'm not sure if those shampoo pictures are legit but it seems they probably are. People from the states(celebrities) do all sorts of adverts for Asia & Japan that they wouldn't normally do at home. Anywho, I'm hoping for a "normal" race as many here so we can see what the E20 & Kimi have. I think if GRO can Quali 2nd than Kimi can Quali 1st or 2nd. He's definitely faster than the kid. Bad luck so far this year but it will turn around.


@Crucial: Well said. Let´s have virtual beers together - I see no reason why we shouldn´t get along and enjoy the drives of our respective favorites.

I really hope Kimi will have a normal weekend in China - the track is quite OK and Kimi has had success there b4.

#4339 pUs

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:42

This topic of Kimi's form slumping down in 2008 has not been exhaustively discussed, at least with wrcva's recent discoveries. So what do you think, did Ferrari support Kimi fully during all of 2008 or did something else happen? If something else, please describe how you saw it.


It's pretty obvious that they supported Kimi, but it's also pretty damn obvious that they could've done a lot more than just getting fed up somewhere around mid-season 2008, 6 months after his title. Just look at Massa at the moment for comparsion. I would say he's doing quite a lot worse in 2012 than Kimi did in 2008, don't you think? Still he's allowed to keep doing his thing, year in year out. It even looks as if they're still supporting the guy. :confused:

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#4340 hijinx

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:57

pUs,

you make a good point there about Ferrari showing their level of support for Massa and for Kimi... it does say a lot...

Also, the China GP weekend is not looking like it will be normal race conditions as rain is predicted for that weekend! I've been to the last 3 GPs there and it rained on 2 of them, lol.

On another note, I was just told that I would have a garage pass for friday practice (only!) so I hope to be able to meet as many drivers as I can up close and take some pics. I made a welcome back banner for kimi in melb but the organizers refused to let me put it up... so I'll bring that and a new one to shanghai and I hope Kimi will see it.

#4341 FirstWatt

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:15

Massa was, until Alonso came along, the most overrated driver, especially because he was able to beat the then very highly rated Kimi in this infamous period between mid 2008 and mid 2009.

OTOH, and because of that, Kimi is still underrated by many.

I'd wish to see other drivers coming back after two years off, with completely different tyres (Pirelli) and being competitive from day one, which he was.

Whit that steep adaptation curve, he'll be at his maximum very soon. Hopefully Lotus can keep up.

#4342 ivand911

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:47

F1 comeback easy with 'good car' - Raikkonen
http://www.motorspor...-car-raikkonen/

#4343 fatd

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:03

and i thought wrcva's post would end all this kimi-massa-ferrari thingy :yawnface:

#4344 Birelman

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:46

F1 comeback easy with 'good car' - Raikkonen
http://www.motorspor...-car-raikkonen/

Lol! What? You honestly expect him to take credit for it? Come out and say "yeah, well, I'm just that good, what can I tell you". Something like that?

It's not exactly that simple, it might be simple to Kimi and a handful of other guys, but not to just anybody. Who knows, maybe you might be one of those talented ones like Kimi, I wouldn't consider myself that talented. Had I been in his shoes and asked that, even if I truly thought it was all due to my I credible racing talent, I'd still probably reply something similar to what he replied. Funny how you all of the sudden takes Kimi's word for law and order, but when he says the Ferrari departure had nothing to do with his driving and all to do with business, that doesn't reallycount as truth.

#4345 pUs

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:53

F1 comeback easy with 'good car' - Raikkonen
http://www.motorspor...-car-raikkonen/


Of course. And, as we all know, good drivers usually end up in good cars. That makes it even easier..

#4346 Oho

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 09:12

Of course. And, as we all know, good drivers usually end up in good cars. That makes it even easier..


Except thou whose name shall not be mentioned who always has inferior equipment with respect to his rivals...

#4347 choyothe

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 09:53

:up: @ wcrwa, awesome work to gather all that info together. Pretty much confirms what we all know was happening. As a Kimi fan I have to say, if there was 1 good thing that came out of the terrible tragedy that was Massa's accident in Hungary, it was that we got to saw the real Kimi till the end of the season. Getting beaten by Massa (who although was significantly better driver pre-Hun09 to post, never was quite at the top level IMO) to being the best driver from that till the end of the season, almost scornig as much as Hamilton and Vettel with a significantly more uncompetitive car.

Of course Kimi fans don't like what happened, I'm sure he didn't either. But the bottom line is F1 is a business. A very cut-throat business. Kimi understands this ans is the reason why you don't hear him bitching about what happened. He's moved on, and I'm glad he has.


I agree with your sentiment, but honestly this tells more about Kimi as a person than anything else. For example Fernando or Lewis would certainly still be talking about it, OTOH with them something like this would've been harder to pull.

#4348 Taxi

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 10:02

On a slightly different point:

Journalists are always complaining Kimi is not easy to interview. The thing is he does not like to answer generic personal questions.


If I were journalist i would be asking him much more technical questions. I've noticed he answers them with more pleasure.



#4349 Trust

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 10:12

You people are getting boring with mentioning Alonso now or then. It doesn't matter the context it's just boring. :wave:

#4350 FenderJaguar

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:05

I'm a Kimifan and I think the post from wrcva was painful to read. It's a childish piece that uses a lot of words to say tinfoil. Although I have myself said many times that I don't think Ferrari got the most out of Raikkonen and it was Massa this and Massa that in 2008, but the 2008 season wasn't the failure that some try to make it out to be. It was a couple of very unfortunate races. Kimi had most fastest laps and up until when the rain came at Spa it was his championship for the taking.

Although I can agree that Ferrari seemed very keen to get the most out of Massa and the least out of Kimi I didn't enjoy reading it. I started to think of children listening to Justin Bieber.

Bring on the 2012 season instead. It's only 9 days to the next race and I can't wait.