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Marussia F1 - 2012


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#51 dau

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 12:47

How do you achieve seconds? On an incremental basis. You don't magic a 3 second gain out of the ether. There are certain factors involved in running KERS;
Do you want to carry the extra 20kg of mandated weight as ballast or an 80 bhp power boost. One saw the largest effect of KERS during qualifying where it was combined with DRS effectively squeezing the pole time.
The argument that Marussia need seconds as opposed to the tenths KERS provides was used by Nick Wirth, a failed design engineer.

That's too simple. It's not just a question of choosing between 20kg of ballast or 20kg of KERS. KERS is expensive - Booth puts the number at £5-8m, which is, according to him, equivalent to enough wind tunnel time to gain them more than the 4 tenths KERS would be able to. The system also needs to be integrated into the package, it needs cooling, it needs specific testing, it will need lots of troubleshooting - time, that can be spent elsewhere, be it setup work or solving problems on the mechanical, hydraulics, engine side.

Also, Team Lotus and i think HRT too used the same reasoning to not run KERS in 2011. So whether it is the right decision or not - it's not just the idea of a "failed design engineer" as you want to put it.

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#52 Petroltorque

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 13:54

Interesting that Booth should bandy a figure of $5-8 million for KERS. Tony Fernandes stated a figure of $3-5 million for a supply from Red Bull Technologies and Williams Hybrid only spent around €600 000 developing their system. I think the problem Marussia have with KERS is their transmission. I doubt its robust to withstand KERS.

#53 lambylamby

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 13:59

Interesting that Booth should bandy a figure of $5-8 million for KERS. Tony Fernandes stated a figure of $3-5 million for a supply from Red Bull Technologies and Williams Hybrid only spent around €600 000 developing their system. I think the problem Marussia have with KERS is their transmission. I doubt its robust to withstand KERS.


Is their transmission still Xtrac? would that be the link? I think even HRT moved from Xtrac to Williams? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
:lol:

#54 dau

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 14:06

Is their transmission still Xtrac? would that be the link? I think even HRT moved from Xtrac to Williams? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
:lol:

Didn't they build their own gearbox for 2011?

Petroltorque: The numbers are from here:
http://www.grandprix...iew-virgin.html


#55 Clatter

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 17:06

How do you achieve seconds? On an incremental basis. You don't magic a 3 second gain out of the ether. There are certain factors involved in running KERS;
Do you want to carry the extra 20kg of mandated weight as ballast or an 80 bhp power boost. One saw the largest effect of KERS during qualifying where it was combined with DRS effectively squeezing the pole time.
The argument that Marussia need seconds as opposed to the tenths KERS provides was used by Nick Wirth, a failed design engineer.


It's not easy, but they are usually several seconds off the pace, and that's available by working on the chassis. The potential gains from spending their efforts on getting that right is far more than they could gain from incorporating KERS, which could cause a whole lot of other problems.

#56 MustangSally

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:06

Didn't they build their own gearbox for 2011?

Petroltorque: The numbers are from here:
http://www.grandprix...iew-virgin.html


Virgin (Marussia) as far as I know built much of the gearbox in-house. They progressively built more as the x-trac stuff proved unreliable. It was never entirely off-the-shelf.

The figures quoted for KERS seem off the wall. That's presumably development costs for a unique system. But it's true that Cosworth does not offer an off-the-shelf solution, unlike the other engine manufacturers.

I'm sure if Virgin/Marussia wanted KERS, it could buy it from Williams for 1 million or less. That was the figure bandied around by Marelli for Ferrari engine customers.

#57 Andy865

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:24

Nick Wirth, a failed design engineer.



:rotfl:

In F1 maybe. Though he has never had proper funding or time to build a proper effort.

#58 Disgrace

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 18:31

Even at Benetton?

#59 Petroltorque

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 20:38

:rotfl:

In F1 maybe. Though he has never had proper funding or time to build a proper effort.

How does any designer get something as basic as fuel capacity wrong? He got the sack at Benetton when he wasted money on a front torque transfer system.

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#60 MustangSally

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 21:31

:rotfl:

. . . he has never had proper funding or time to build a proper effort.


Really?

Apparently he had 17 million from Virgin . . . and as much time as all the other teams.

#61 metz

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 14:41

He got the sack at Benetton when he wasted money on a front torque transfer system.

Is this the same system that the same team is introducing again in 2012?



#62 Petroltorque

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 17:46

Is this the same system that the same team is introducing again in 2012?

No, it is not.

#63 metz

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 19:38

Seems like a variation of, according to James Allen.
http://forums.autosp...howtopic=159666


#64 Petroltorque

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 06:38

Seems like a variation of, according to James Allen.
http://forums.autosp...howtopic=159666

I must check and see which University James Allen got his engineering degree from...... The FTT system was a means of controlling braking effect across the centre line of the front axle whereas the present Lotus system is related to front end ride height.

#65 metz

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 21:21

from ivan in the other thread;

By Scarbs:
The engineer most likely responsible for it is Rob Tuluie, he was at Renault when they developed their hydraulic interlinked suspension in 2009. His work on the front to rear interlinking lead to the discovery of the inertance of the fluid in the long lines and hence to the Fluid Inerter patent. Tuluie has since left Renault for Mercedes.
Renault as well as Ferrari and Marussia have these systems. While I know Williams other teams are looking at this, as are other teams if they do not already have it.
It interlinks front to rear, the main gain is the reduction in nose down pitch from aero loads or under braking. something not achievable in a practical way with mechanical suspension links. This gain is to allow lower static front wing ride heights, that do not degrade with speed or weight transfer."


#66 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 21:26

How does any designer get something as basic as fuel capacity wrong? He got the sack at Benetton when he wasted money on a front torque transfer system.

people can make a mistake, the problem is when they repeat them...
I doubt nobody could challenge fuel capacity if he got it wrong. it was more of a team mistake

#67 Petroltorque

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 06:18

people can make a mistake, the problem is when they repeat them...
I doubt nobody could challenge fuel capacity if he got it wrong. it was more of a team mistake

With respect Wirth technologies was responsible for all aspests of car design. What there's no denying is Wirth's business acumen. He successfully sold a Windtunnel to Prost Grand Prix that was so archaic, it was useless for F1. The resultant AP02 finished that team and Wirth trousered a tidy sum.

#68 Prost1997T

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 11:23

Wasn't he also involved with the abomination of a team called Andrea Moda?

#69 wj_gibson

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 11:29

I don't have much hope that this team is going to be a great deal further forward in 2012 than it was in 2011 - they might make a Team Lotus 2011-style step forward and cut the gap to the rest of the grid (bar HRT) but not much more - this is the first car they've designed and tested using a conventional approach.

#70 Wingcommander

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:42

Wasn't he also involved with the abomination of a team called Andrea Moda?


IIRC Wirth designed a car for BMW somewhere around 1990. Andrea Moda bought the designs, but to be honest the car was the least of their problems.

#71 lambylamby

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 22:15

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/97139

interesting news to find it had not too bad areas, but woeful aerodynamics.

I wonder how with the wind tunnel testing it will be refined this year, not to mention it being in mclaren facilities, sounds like the exact tonic for this lonely gin-mobile

#72 Mastah

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 18:04

More bad news, MR01 will be ready only for the last test:

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/97162

Only 4 days of testing with almost entirely new car, which was designed for the first time in windtunnel? That doesn't sound promising...

#73 DMatt001

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 18:24

No, the car wasn't in the windtunnel yet: http://www.motorspor...l_12012411.html

#74 Mastah

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 18:33

Wow, it's awful news then. No windtunnel time until February, skipping first test altogether without any sensible reason (it's not like Pic needs as much mileage as possible... oh, wait :rolleyes:), testing with old car during second test and debuting 2012 Marussia in third test. I think I can safely predict they will be 2-3 or even more seconds behind the next best car :well:.

#75 MadYarpen

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 18:35

I don't understand why are they in F1...

#76 cbbcisace

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 18:37

Wow, it's awful news then. No windtunnel time until February, skipping first test altogether without any sensible reason (it's not like Pic needs as much mileage as possible... oh, wait :rolleyes:), testing with old car during second test and debuting 2012 Marussia in third test. I think I can safely predict they will be 2-3 or even more seconds behind the next best car :well:.


I can't believe how they are behind HRT in bringing the MR01 out?

Especially when HRT are being slated for being late to the 2nd test.

:rotfl:

#77 Petroltorque

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 10:27

No, the car wasn't in the windtunnel yet: http://www.motorspor...l_12012411.html

Does that article say that the new car was designed without a windtunnel model? If so what the difference between this present and and Wirth's monsters?

#78 RedBaron

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 12:29

No KERS for Marussia in 2012. By far the most disappointing team in Formula 1.

Forgot the article: http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/97195

Edited by RedBaron, 27 January 2012 - 12:31.


#79 Mastah

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 14:43

We know that since 4 months :rolleyes:, not officialy of course, but Timo said that to AMuS:

http://www.auto-moto...rs-4042385.html

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#80 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 14:59

What does the tie up with McLaren actually mean in real terms for Marussia. Is it like the Force-India tie up, where they basically share the same back end including mountings, except for their own suspension design. Do Marussia get the Macca gearbox?

Edited by The Ragged Edge, 27 January 2012 - 15:20.


#81 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 15:00

And how does that really work, because the FI's at least had a Merc engine.

#82 MaxisOne

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 15:01

Why is Timo still there? I can understand fighting the good fight. I can see that with Hekki at Caterham . But staying with Marussia looks like they won't even make it to the ring!

Timo needs to get out and try to move himself back up the grid if he is able to.

#83 Mastah

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 15:18

Because no other team wants him now. He had chances to sign with Renault in 2009 and 2010, but in 09 he refused to do so and in 10 Renault preffered VitPet's money.



What does the tie up with McLaren actually mean in real terms for Marussia. Is it like the Force-India tie up, where they basically share the same back end including mountings, except for their own desing suspension design. Do Marussia get the Macca gearbox?


Firstly, Marussia Virgin Racing has concluded a long-term Technical Partnership with McLaren Applied Technologies which will see the Anglo-Russian team benefit from access to McLaren facilities, knowledge and capabilities, for example their test rigs and driver-in-the-loop simulator, supply chain experience and CFD and CAE techniques including race strategy tools.

While we continue our commitment to CFD as a technology, in order to progress at the rate of development required to achieve our racing ambitions we will use every means available to improve the aerodynamics of our Formula One racing cars, including access to the McLaren wind tunnel.

The Technical Partnership will also see McLaren management and production staff embedded within the team, working in roles permitted by the Concorde Agreement.


Edited by Mastah, 27 January 2012 - 15:24.


#84 Sanman59

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 15:42

Why is Timo still there? I can understand fighting the good fight. I can see that with Hekki at Caterham . But staying with Marussia looks like they won't even make it to the ring!

Timo needs to get out and try to move himself back up the grid if he is able to.



I think it is very difficult for him because he brings no budget and is on good money. He has no choice other than to stick it out and try to develop the package. There is time as he has a contract to 2014 by which time he will have KERS and the Macca partnership should have yielded some improvement by then.

Their big mistake was taking Pic early as they could have got Petrov (it now transpires) and he could have funded KERS as well as being a better driver.

:cry:

Edited by Sanman59, 27 January 2012 - 15:43.


#85 Mastah

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 15:58

Funded KERS? How? Pic has as much money as VitPet, if not more.

#86 primer

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 16:07

It's as if they are in competition with HRT for the dishonor of being worst F1 team.


#87 jamiegc

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 16:55

As said on the first page, they will end up as another Spyker/Midland.

#88 Disgrace

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 16:59

they are in competition with HRT for the dishonor of being worst F1 team.


Fixed.

#89 MustangSally

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 17:09

What does the tie up with McLaren actually mean in real terms for Marussia. Is it like the Force-India tie up, where they basically share the same back end including mountings, except for their own suspension design. Do Marussia get the Macca gearbox?


IIRC, Virgin largely built its own gearbox, the X-trac solution being horribly unreliable from day one. Otherwise it would have been logical to buy a Williams box for the Cosworth, like HRT.

Force India had a big package from McLaren, including consultancy. No idea what deal Marussia has and it retains Symonds as a consultant.

The stories don't sound encouraging. Could the problem simply be money? The team made a huge loss last year - reportedly 35m. HRT does seem to have had better management (Kolles) and, since new ownership, better funding.


#90 Petroltorque

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 17:43

At least we will have a direct comparison between KERS in similarly powered cars. Yes, I know the chassis will be the main performance differentiator.

#91 KavB

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 23:07

What does the tie up with McLaren actually mean in real terms for Marussia. Is it like the Force-India tie up, where they basically share the same back end including mountings, except for their own suspension design. Do Marussia get the Macca gearbox?

An engineer who just moved to Marussia came to my University yesterday and said they get to use the windtunnels in Woking. He also said they are focusing on developing their 2014 car early due to the regulation change and to ensure they have a decent car for the 2014 Russian Grand Prix.

#92 VARGR

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 23:48

An engineer who just moved to Marussia came to my University yesterday and said they get to use the windtunnels in Woking. He also said they are focusing on developing their 2014 car early due to the regulation change and to ensure they have a decent car for the 2014 Russian Grand Prix.


Deffinately a good call by them. As it was in 2009 the 2014 rule change should mix the field up a bit so they could have a good chance of desent results for it. I'm glad they are using the windtunnels as last year they seemed a decent enough team, but with just a bad areodynamic car due to the lack of wintunnels. Pat Symonds is a very good guy to have running the team so maybe by 2014 they could surprise.


#93 cbbcisace

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 00:00

Deffinately a good call by them. As it was in 2009 the 2014 rule change should mix the field up a bit so they could have a good chance of desent results for it. I'm glad they are using the windtunnels as last year they seemed a decent enough team, but with just a bad areodynamic car due to the lack of wintunnels. Pat Symonds is a very good guy to have running the team so maybe by 2014 they could surprise.


Agreed and maybe HRT and Marussia should be thinking the same.

I hope to god that Marussia doesn't struggle in '12 and '13 though.....

#94 FloorTheThrottle

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 01:23

i think marussia and hrt wouldn't go beyond 2014 , they will see how the completely new regulations affects the grid and eventually they will remain the same and leave.

#95 dau

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 11:59

An engineer who just moved to Marussia came to my University yesterday and said they get to use the windtunnels in Woking. He also said they are focusing on developing their 2014 car early due to the regulation change and to ensure they have a decent car for the 2014 Russian Grand Prix.


2014? Shouldn't they be more concerned about making it through 2012 and 2013 before thinking about their performance at a 2014 Grand Prix?

#96 lambylamby

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 20:57

Any news in the last few days on Marussia? it's been quiet for a few days now, haven't heard anything about progress of the wind tunnel tests they did a few days ago... anyone have inside info how they are doing?

#97 cbbcisace

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 21:05

Any news in the last few days on Marussia? it's been quiet for a few days now, haven't heard anything about progress of the wind tunnel tests they did a few days ago... anyone have inside info how they are doing?


No been very quiet from Marussia...

#98 lambylamby

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 21:12

No been very quiet from Marussia...


The only snippet I've heard is that Timo said (which I believe is potentially quoting that there isn't much testing time) it's going to be a 'tough start'. Now I'm in a few minds about missing the second test, first is that they found something bad/off kilter in the wind tunnel testing and are fixing it now, and it makes more sense to sort it out than pressure towards a lacklustre car even if you get one more test, that they have found something positive and are working to irk more performance out of the situation and the third is that the car is just late, like Symonds says and that they are cancelling the second test as they are behind schedule. I'm just hoping it's going to be within the 3 second bracket off the top runners, I don't think I could handle another season of being way off the pace!

#99 cbbcisace

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 21:16

The only snippet I've heard is that Timo said (which I believe is potentially quoting that there isn't much testing time) it's going to be a 'tough start'. Now I'm in a few minds about missing the second test, first is that they found something bad/off kilter in the wind tunnel testing and are fixing it now, and it makes more sense to sort it out than pressure towards a lacklustre car even if you get one more test, that they have found something positive and are working to irk more performance out of the situation and the third is that the car is just late, like Symonds says and that they are cancelling the second test as they are behind schedule. I'm just hoping it's going to be within the 3 second bracket off the top runners, I don't think I could handle another season of being way off the pace!


Its a strange one, I expected Marussia to be ahead of HRT to bring their new car to testing plus they started early in designing the car.

If HRT and Marussia are within 4 seconds of ultimate pace, they have done well with €30/40m budgets I think.

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#100 VARGR

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 21:23

The only snippet I've heard is that Timo said (which I believe is potentially quoting that there isn't much testing time) it's going to be a 'tough start'. Now I'm in a few minds about missing the second test, first is that they found something bad/off kilter in the wind tunnel testing and are fixing it now, and it makes more sense to sort it out than pressure towards a lacklustre car even if you get one more test, that they have found something positive and are working to irk more performance out of the situation and the third is that the car is just late, like Symonds says and that they are cancelling the second test as they are behind schedule. I'm just hoping it's going to be within the 3 second bracket off the top runners, I don't think I could handle another season of being way off the pace!


Well as Virgin the last two season this team lost ALOT of money and were well off the pace. If they do take longer to get these things fixed, they may have a rough start to the season due to a lack of testing, but they would be able to eventually get over it and see the results. Last year's car was well off the pace of TL/Caterham so they need one that will pull them closer to the mid-field to keep the owners/sponsor happy.