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The 1971 Ontario Motor Speedway Questor GP (merged)


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#1 Graham Clayton

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Posted 15 February 2001 - 02:57

Does anyone have any information on the one and only Questor
Grand Prix that was held in Canada?

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#2 Keir

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Posted 15 February 2001 - 03:15

Graham,
The Questor Grand Prix was held on the "now condoized"
Ontario Motor Speedway in sunny California, USA.
It was a match race between F1 and F5000 and used the speedway and infield section to make a circuit very similar to the one used at Indy this past season.
Mario Andretti won both heats of the race to take the win.
(The two heat format was for the benefit of the F5000 cars smaller fuel tanks.) Second was Jackie Stewart in the Tyrrell followed by Denny Hulme in the McLaren and Chris Amon's wailing Matra. The only serious F5000 car was a Lola-Chevy belonging to Roger Penske and was driven by Mark Donahue. Somewhere there is a film of the event and it is worth watching just for the rarity of the event.

#3 don hodgdon

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Posted 15 February 2001 - 03:42

Originally posted by Graham Clayton
Does anyone have any information on the one and only Questor
Grand Prix that was held in Canada?


Here's an excellent article on the Questor:
http://www.racer.dem...8w/questor.html

don

#4 Jim Thurman

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Posted 15 February 2001 - 04:41

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Keir
[B]Graham,
The Questor Grand Prix was held on the "now condoized"
Ontario Motor Speedway in sunny California, USA.

The OMS site isn't "condo-ized" (neither is Riverside International). Most of the ground is still undeveloped. Neither is it the site of the Ontario Mills mall, another popular belief. That lies East of the track site.

The race re-cap...very good.

And OMS, like Riverside, was sunny except when it rained .

Jim Thurman - who was at the Questor GP

Oh, and Hi Graham .

#5 quintin cloud

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Posted 15 February 2001 - 06:20

Graham if you go to 8W webpage there is a write up about the race by Tom Prankerd with a near complete race result , but if any can finsh the result it would be great:

the url: http://www.racer.dem...8w/questor.html :up:

1971 Questor GP
28 March - Ontario Speedway, California: 164.247 km 2(5.133 km x 32 Laps)



Results:

Heat 1
1 Mario Andretti Ferrari 312B '002[2]'
2 Jackie Stewart Tyrrell-Cosworth 001
3 Jo Siffert BRM P160
4 Denny Hulme McLaren-Cosworth M19A
5 Jacky Ickx Ferrari 312B
6 Chris Amon Matra-Cosworth MS120
7 Tim Schenken Brabham-Ford BT42
8 Howden Ganley BRM P155
9 Mark Donohue Lola T192-Chevrolet Formula A/5000
10 Ron Grable Lola-Chev T190 Formula A/5000
11 Peter Gethin McLaren M14A-Ford
12 Bobby Unser Lola T190-Chevrolet Formula A/5000
13 Derek Bell March 701-Ford
14 Lou Sell Lola T192-Chevrolet Formula A/5000


Fastest Lap: Chris Amon (Matra-Cosworth MS120), 1:43.088, 111.54mph
Pole Position: Jackie Stewart (Tyrrell-Cosworth), 1:41.257


Heat 2
1 Mario Andretti Ferrari 312B '002[2]'
2 Jackie Stewart Tyrrell-Cosworth 001
3 Chris Amon Matra-Cosworth MS120 '03'
4 Pedro Rodriguez BRM P160 '160-01'
5 Denny Hulme McLaren-Cosworth M19A 'M19A/1'
6 Tim Schenken Brabham-Cosworth BT42
7 Ron Grable Lola T190-Chevrolet Formula A/5000
8 Peter Gethin McLaren M14A-Ford
9 John Cannon March 701-Ford
10 Tony Adamowicz Lola T192-Chevrolet Formula A/5000
11 Howden Ganley BRM P155
12 Lou Sell Lola T192
13 Jo Siffert BRM P160
14 Guy Hutchison ASD-Chevrolet Formula A/5000

Fastest Lap: Pedro Rodriguez (BRM P160), 1:42.777, 111.88mph
Pole Position: Mario Andretti (Ferrari 312B)


Aggregate
1 Mario Andretti Ferrari 312B '002[2]' 1h51m48.410, 109.70mph
2 Jackie Stewart Tyrrell-Cosworth 001 1h52m04.324
3 Denny Hulme McLaren-Cosworth M19A 'M19A/1' 64 laps
4 Chris Amon Matra-Cosworth MS120 '03' 64 laps
5 Tim Schenken Brabham-Cosworth BT42 63 laps
6 Peter Gethin McLaren-Cosworth M14A 'M14A/1' 63 laps
7 Ron Grable Lola T190-Chevrolet F A/5000 63 laps
8 Peter Gethin McLaren M14A-Ford 63 laps
9 Howden Ganley BRM P155 61 laps
10 Pedro Rodriguez BRM P160 '160-01' 61 laps


#6 Roger Clark

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Posted 15 February 2001 - 07:32

Amon wasn't in a Matra-Cosworth!

#7 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 15 February 2001 - 12:15

Here is Ronnie Peterson on the grid making himself ready for the 1971 Questor GP.

Posted Image


Rainer

#8 Allen Brown

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Posted 15 February 2001 - 15:01

Matra MS120-Cosworth!!

That's probably my fault. When my site first went live I had accidentally given the MS120 type a DFV engine (but not, curiously, the MS120B or MS120C - I can't even be consistent when I'm making a mistake!).

It was quickly pointed out (by an TNF regular of course) and was fixed straight away.

What's incomplete in the Questor result - I'm sure I have a full results somewhere.

Allen

#9 fines

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Posted 15 February 2001 - 16:11

Well, for one thing the race was not decided on aggregate times, but on points...

#10 fines

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Posted 15 February 2001 - 17:04

Here's the results from 'Powerslide' 5/71, not cross-checked, however:

1st Andretti, 80 points
2nd Stewart, 70
3rd Hulme, 58
4th Amon, 58
5th Schenken, 50
6th Siffert, 50
7th Grable, 45
8th Gethin, 43
9th Ganley, 43
10th Rodriguez, 41
etc

Somewhere I should have my own calculations...

#11 Roger Clark

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Posted 15 February 2001 - 18:32

The results in Motor Sport as the same as fines'. Hey differ in the minor placings from Quintin cloud's, but he has Gethin both 6th and 8th. Motor sport has Siffert 6th (60 laps) and Grable 7th (63 laps). They say that the points system was rather complicated and enabled drivers who had finished well up in one heat, but retired in the other, to be placed higher than drivers who had run the whole distance.

Does anyone know how it worked?

#12 Sid Rutty

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Posted 15 February 2001 - 22:15

Graham, Motorsport the English publication recently did a story on the Questor GP.You can get back copies by contacting them.

#13 John Cross

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Posted 15 February 2001 - 22:30

According to Autocourse, the results were (just the F1 cars):


1.  Mario Andretti	 Ferrari 312B-1/71	 64 laps

2.  Jackie Stewart	 Tyrrell-Cosworth	  64

3.  Denis Hulme		McLaren-Cosworth M19A 64

4.  Chris Amon		 Matra-Simca MS120B	64

5.  Tim Schenken	   Brabham-Cosworth BT33 61

6.  Jo Siffert		 BRM P160			  60

7.  Peter Gethin	   McLaren-Cosworth M14A 63

8.  Howden Ganley	  BRM P153			  61

9.  Pedro Rodriguez	BRM P160			  53

10. Jacky Ickx		 Ferrari 312B-1/71	 34  Puncture

11. John Cannon		March-Cosworth 701	60

12. Derek Bell		 March-Cosworth 701	46  Suspension

13. Ronnie Peterson	March-Cosworth 711	43

14. Henri Pescarolo	March-Cosworth 711	24  Suspension

15. Emerson Fittipaldi Lotus-Cosworth 72C	25  Gear Linkage

16. Graham Hill		Brabham-Cosworth BT34  8  Oil pipe

17. Reine Wisell	   Lotus-Cosworth 72C	17  Ignition

This differs in minor details from some of the other published results I have seen.

#14 Pete Stanley

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Posted 15 February 2001 - 23:13

I seem to recall that an American in the F5000 class,'Swede' Savage, sustained a serious head injury after hitting the wall during the Questor GP. The fact that he survived at all was attributed to the fact that he had a full-face helmet on, which added to its increasing popularity.

Savage came out of his coma, regained much of his memory, and returned to racing. Sadly, he was killed in practice for the '74 Indy 500.

#15 jarama

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Posted 16 February 2001 - 01:33

This was the starting grid for the first heat:


Stewart, Tyrrell Ford, 1'41"22
Amon, Matra, 1'41"27

Ickx, Ferrari, 1'41"53
Hulme, McLaren Ford, 1'42"25

Rodríguez, BRM, 1'42"47
Hill, Brabham Ford, 1'42"77

Donohue, Lola Chevrolet, 1'43"21
Siffert, BRM, 1'43"35

Fittipaldi, Lotus Ford, 1'43"35
Follmer, Lotus Ford, 1'43"47

Wisell, Lotus Ford, 1'43"53
Andretti, Ferrari, 1'43"54

Pescarolo, March Ford, 1'43"70
Schenken, Brabham Ford, 1'43"77

Posey, Surtees Chevrolet, 1'44"12
Cannon, March Ford, 1'44"23

Peterson, March Ford, 1'44"36
Ganley, BRM, 1'44"73


#16 Keir

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Posted 16 February 2001 - 03:21

WOW,
This is some kind of posting record for a "one off" event.

A few corrections.

Ontario Motor Speedway was demolished to make room for a housing development. Obviously, the plans never got past the planning stage.

The results were done both by points and aggregate, hence Hulme being given 4th palce ahead of Amon even though they tied on points.

The final results were done for F1 only, F5000 only and F1 and F5000 combined. (This was a big time public relations benefit.)

Stewart and Amon were separated on the grid by one/one thousandth of a second. (This was a first for F1, going three digits for a grid time.)

#17 Jim Thurman

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Posted 16 February 2001 - 04:56

Originally posted by Keir
WOW,
A few corrections.

Ontario Motor Speedway was demolished to make room for a housing development. Obviously, the plans never got past the planning stage.

The final results were done for F1 only, F5000 only and F1 and F5000 combined. (This was a big time public relations benefit.)

Stewart and Amon were separated on the grid by one/one thousandth of a second. (This was a first for F1, going three digits for a grid time.)


Many times when race circuits are sold off, plans do fall through. I wonder though because I've heard so many false reports on so many facilities, particularly OMS and Riverside International Raceway. ESPN reported that Riverside would be turned into "luxury homes with swimming pools" and "luxury condos". Didn't happen. For one, anyone who knows anything about the area knows the likelihood of high priced housing. OMS also fits that profile because I've seen in print that: an elementary school, truck stop and shopping mall are what stand on the track site...and all proved false. People forget exact locations. Especially the ones that never knew in the first place :)

Originally, when Standard Oil of California bought OMS, they announced racing would continue. Within a couple of weeks, they announced they would be closing the facility.

There is enough bizarreness and intrigue involving the building, mis-management and ultimate closure of OMS that someone should write a book about it.

Thanks to everyone for the posts, brought back a lot of memories and added interesting info.

"Swede" Savage indeed crashed heavily into the concrete wall off the infield section, was in a coma and never seemed to completely regain his pre-crash form. He crashed shortly after taking the lead *during* the 1973 Indy 500 and died a month later from pneumonia (he suffered critical burns).

A couple of quick corrections to the otherwise great 8W report: it's GUS Hutchison (not Guy) and Questor Corp. had nothing to do with the building of OMS, only the sponsorship of the GP.

I know I have the full field results, F/A included. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll post them.

Thanks again to everyone that has posted great info here.

Jim Thurman

#18 Roger Clark

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Posted 16 February 2001 - 06:24

THe times on the grid I have are diffferent from those posted by Jarama. I'll post the differences this evening. Motor Sport haaas Stewart at 1min 41.257, Amon at 1min 41.257. Neithe this nor Jarama makes the difference 0.001 secs.

Can I repeat my request and ask how the points system worked?

#19 jarama

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Posted 16 February 2001 - 13:24

Roger,

I've found this starting grid in the May '71 issue of the french magazine "Sport-Auto".

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#20 borsari

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Posted 16 February 2001 - 17:27

Originally posted by don hodgdon

Originally posted by Graham Clayton
Does anyone have any information on the one and only Questor
Grand Prix that was held in Canada?


Here's an excellent article on the Questor:
http://www.racer.dem...8w/questor.html

don


DON,

Thanks for the info on the Questor GP. I went to it, and that is where I met my all time hero for the first time: Giulio Borsari, the head mechanic for Ferrari. Andretti racked up the car in practice, and Giulio and a couple of the other "ragazzi" had to put it together again without much help. they did a great job and Mario won the race. But when they got back to the factory, some of the engineers there complained that the repair job was 'out of alignment' a little bit !!
Those were the good old days of driver/fan interaction. i took lots of pictures, very close up of the drivers, Bernie had yet to put his avaricious paws on the sport.

Mark
#1 fan of GIULIO BORSARI
Forza Ferrari

#21 fines

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Posted 16 February 2001 - 18:54

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
[BI know I have the full field results, F/A included. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll post them.
[/B]

Jim, you should know that offering things like that never goes unpunished! :lol: :lol:

YES, PLEASE POST THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!

#22 fines

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Posted 16 February 2001 - 19:00

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Can I repeat my request and ask how the points system worked?

From my calculations, it should be 40-35-32-30-28-26-24-23-22-21 for places first through tenth, then down to 1 point for 30th.

#23 Roger Clark

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Posted 16 February 2001 - 22:01

Thankyou fines.

Here is the grid as posted in motor Sport, with Jarama's times in brackets. The differences are generally small. I've also added chassis numbers from Motor Spport, which I've cross-cecked with PAul Sheldon. I'm not saying which is correct...


Stewart, Tyrrell Ford 001, 1'41.257" (1'41"22 )
Amon, Matra MS120b/04 (Sheldon has -03), 1'41.275" (1'41"27 )

Ickx, Ferrari 312B-1/01, 1'41.531" (1'41"53)
Hulme, McLaren Ford M19/1, 1'42.458" (1'42"25)

Rodríguez, BRM P160/01, 1'42.473" (1'42"47 )
Hill, Brabham Ford BT34/1, 1'42.763" (1'42"77 )

Donohue, Lola Chevrolet T192/1, 1'43.211" (1'43"21 )
Siffert, BRM P160/02, 1'42.350" (1'43"35 )

Fittipaldi, Lotus Ford 72/5, 1'43.358" ( 1'43"35 )
Follmer, Lotus Ford 70B/1, 1'43.474" (1'43"47 )

Wisell, Lotus Ford 72/3, 1'43.535" (1'43"53 )
Andretti, Ferrari 312B-1/02, 1'43.542" ( 1'43"54 )

Pescarolo, March Ford 711/3, 1'43.709" (1'43"70 )
Schenken, Brabham Ford BT33/1, 1' 43.772" (1'43"77 )

Posey, Surtees Chevrolet TS8/006, 1'44.128" ( 1'44"12 )
Cannon, March Ford 701/3, 1'44.231" ( 1'44"23 )

Peterson, March Ford 711/2, 711/2 1'44.360" (1'44"36 )
Ganley, BRM, P153/03 1'44.739 (1'44"73 )

D Bell March-cosworth 701/6 1'44.977"
P Gethin McLaren-Cosworth M14A/1 1'45.310"

L Sell lola-Chevrolet T192/21 (Sheldon has 192-F1-23) 1'45.397"
R Grable Lola-Chevrolet T190/H3 1'45.402"

B Bondurant Lola Chevrolet T192/2 1'45.528"
P Revson surtees-Chevrolet TS8/007 1'45.668"

T Adamowicz Lola Chevrolet T192/24 1' 47.831"
A Unser Lola-Chevrolet T190/H4 (Sheldon has 192-F1-22) 1'48.172"

B Unser Lola-Chevrolet T190/H1 1'48.512"
G Hutchison ASD American-Chevrolet 01 1'50.954"

S Savage eagle Plymouth 69/511 1'51.509"
AJ Foyt McLaren Chevrolet M10B/14 1'52.229"

REserves - did not start
D Hobbs McLaren M10B/1 1'45.331"
P Lovely Lotus 49C/R11 1'47.269"
J Byers Lola T190/6 1'54.468"



#24 Jim Thurman

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Posted 13 March 2001 - 02:07

Sorry for the delay in posting...

The grid times I have match what Roger Clark posted with the exception of Stewart being listed at 1'41.227 and Siffert at 1'43.350

Here are the results by heat and overall (as printed in Autoweek) :

HEAT ONE

1. Mario Andretti Ferrari 312B 32 laps
2. Jackie Stewart Tyrell-Ford 32
3. Jo Siffert BRM 153 32
4. Denis Hulme McLaren M19-Ford 32
5. Jacky Ickx Ferrari 312B 32
6. Chris Amon Matra-Simca MS120 32
7. Tim Schenken Brabham BT33-Ford 31
8. Howden Ganley BRM P153 31
9. Mark Donohue Lola T192-Chevrolet (FA) 31
10. Ron Grable Lola T190-Chevrolet (FA) 31
11. Peter Gethin McLaren M14A-Ford 31
12. Bobby Unser Lola T190-Chevrolet (FA) 31
13. Derek Bell March 701-Ford 31
14. Lou Sell Lola T192-Chevrolet (FA) 30
DNF
John Cannon March 701-Ford 30 throttle
Ronnie Peterson March 711-Ford 26 suspension
Emerson Fittipaldi Lotus 72-Ford 25 engine
Sam Posey Surtees TS8-Chevrolet (FA) 25 overheating
Gus Hutchison ASD American-Chevrolet(FA) 25 running
Pedro Rodriguez BRM P160 21 running
Reine Wisell Lotus 72-Ford 17 ignition
Henri Pescarolo March 701-Ford 16 body
Al Unser Lola T192-Chevrolet (FA) 16 oil pressure
Bob Bondurant Lola T192-Chevrolet (FA) 15 engine
Tony Adamowicz Lola T192-Chevrolet (FA) 12 running
Peter Revson Surtees TS8-Chevrolet (FA) 11 gearbox
Swede Savage Eagle-Plymouth (FA) 11 accident
Graham Hill Brabham BT34-Ford 8 oil pressure
A.J. Foyt McLaren M10B-Chevrolet (FA) 6 suspension
George Follmer Lotus 71-Ford (FA) 3 rocker arm

HEAT TWO
1. Andretti 32 laps
2. Stewart 32
3. Amon 32
4. Rodriguez 32
5. Hulme 32
6. Schenken 32
7. Grable (FA) 32
8. Gethin 32
9. Cannon 31
10. Adamowicz (FA) 31
11. Ganley 30
12. Sell (FA) 29
13. Siffert 28
14. Hutchison (FA) 27
DNF
Pescarolo 24 suspension
Peterson 17 running at finish
Bell 15 suspension/gearbox
Posey (FA) 13 engine
Fittipaldi 10 gear linkage
B. Unser (FA) 9 engine
Donohue (FA) 5 fuel pressure
Foyt (FA) 2 blown engine
Ickx 2 flat tire

OVERALL
1. Andretti
2. Stewart
3. Hulme
4. Amon
5. Schenken
6. Siffert
7. Grable (FA)
8. Gethin
9. Ganley
10. Rodriguez
11. Ickx
12. Cannon
13. Sell (FA)
14. Donohue (FA)
15. Bell
16. B. Unser (FA)
17. Adamowicz (FA)
18. Peterson
19. Hutchison (FA)
20. Pescarolo
21. Fittipaldi
22. Posey (FA)
23. Bondurant (FA)
24. Revson (FA)
25. Savage (FA)
26. Hill
27. Wisell
28. A. Unser (FA)
29. Foyt (FA)
30. Follmer (FA)

#25 Roger Clark

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Posted 13 March 2001 - 06:26

You're right about Siffert. It was my mistake. I don't know about Stewart. Both Motor Sport and Paul Sheldon have 1'41.257", but .227 matches the earlier posting by Jarama. Paul Sheldon used Motor Sport as a source so it's possible they're wrong.

#26 Jim Thurman

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Posted 13 March 2001 - 06:39

Sorry about the format problem on that post, my first attempt at multi-columns here.

There wasn't a single mention of the alternates. Not doubting the info, just no mention in the reports I had.


Jim Thurman

#27 fines

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Posted 13 March 2001 - 20:03

Thanks, Jim! :) :)

#28 Jim Thurman

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Posted 21 March 2001 - 19:54

Originally posted by Roger Clark
You're right about Siffert. It was my mistake. I don't know about Stewart. Both Motor Sport and Paul Sheldon have 1'41.257", but .227 matches the earlier posting by Jarama. Paul Sheldon used Motor Sport as a source so it's possible they're wrong.


Well Roger, there's always the possibility that Autoweek's time is wrong too!.

Thanks for posting the info.


Jim Thurman

#29 AyePirate

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Posted 11 April 2001 - 07:58

An interesting piece that I ran across on the 'net
http://www.autoracin...0/1028_1104.htm

"In 1971 the Questor Grand Prix was run at the Ontario Motor Speedway.  It was billed as the battle of two-worlds, the USA and its Formula A cars (America's fuel injected version of F5000) against the best the European F1 series had to offer.  Who won?  Answer:  The Americans were armed with the likes of Peter Revson, Mark Donohue, George Follmer, AJ Foyt, Bob Bondurant, and Al and Bobby Unser.  The Europeans countered with Ferrari (Mario Andretti and Jackie Ickx), Lotus (Emerson Fittipaldi and Reine Wisell), BRM (Jo Siffert and Pedro Rodriquez), Brabham (Graham Hill and Tim Schenken), Matra (Chris Amon), March (Ronnie Peterson), Tyrell (Jackie Stewart), McLaren (Denny Hulme and Peter Gethin), and two privateer Marches entered by Frank Williams (Henri Pescarolo and Derek Bell).  We may never see such a star studded battle ever again.  All the heavy hitters were there.  A race fans dream.  Some saw it as a repeat of Monza's race of two worlds.  The race was run in two 100-mile heats because the American Formula A cars did not have enough fuel capacity.  Mario Andretti, fresh off his first F1 win in Kyalami, South Africa, had an accident in qualifying on Friday and missed most of the session.  In addition, he had an Indy car race on Saturday at Phoenix.  As a result he started down in 12th place, standing on his Friday time. Jackie Stewart was on pole. At the drop of the green flag of the first heat, Andretti worked his way to the front, caught and passed Jackie Stewart under braking for the first turn (the same Jackie Stewart who completely dominated F1 that year), and won pulling away, much to the delight of the American crowd (even though he was driving a European F1 car).  In the 2nd heat outside front row starter Jackie Stewart got the jump on Andretti and led.  Andretti stalked Stewart for a handful of laps, then repeated his first turn overtaking maneuver on Stewart he pulled in the first heat, to take the lead and the win going away.  In the end, both the Americans (Andretti - both heats) and the Europeans (Ferrari - both heats) went home with bragging rights.  Unfortunately, the battle of both worlds never happened again as Questor ran into financial trouble."

Sounds like the coolest thing this side of Can-Am!
Does anyone have more details? Pictures?



#30 quintin cloud

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Posted 11 April 2001 - 08:46

AyePirate you can have look at the following thread about the Questor GP

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=15973


And the race result is at my webpage in the non-championship section under 1971

http://www.formula1results.com

#31 AyePirate

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Posted 11 April 2001 - 18:31

Thanks, unfortunately a lot of the links are to the old 8w:(

#32 Jim Thurman

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Posted 12 April 2001 - 04:48

I was there!. Interesting experiment although all racing fans knew the Formula A's (F5000) weren't quite up to challenging the F1 cars.

What I took home...a second degree sunburn (it was rather smoggy and hot) and great memories of seeing all those top drivers and the cars (if I develop hearing trouble, it's not from any rock concerts, it's from the scream of the Matra V12...I was sitting right where Amon hit peak revs). I especially appreciate this since I never got around to making Long Beach.

The thread here on TNF had some very good posts to it.

Jim Thurman

#33 quintin cloud

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Posted 12 April 2001 - 07:15

the 8w link has changed the new link is:
http://8w.forix.com

:drunk:

#34 Allen Brown

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Posted 12 April 2001 - 12:04

Jim

Take any good pictures while you were there?

Allen



#35 Keir

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Posted 12 April 2001 - 14:12

:eek: That Matra did have the greatest sound :eek:

I heard it at the Glen in 72. You not only heard the wail, you felt it!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

#36 Jim Thurman

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Posted 12 April 2001 - 22:59

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Jim

Take any good pictures while you were there?


Sadly, no :cry:

Since I was still a pre-teen (though not by much), I wasn't into photographing then. Drat!

Had the Questor occurred just a couple of years later, you can bet I would have had some photos.


Jim Thurman

#37 buzard

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Posted 13 April 2001 - 04:30

The Questor was a true case of hype. Jackie Stewart agreed
to shake down a McLaren F500 for A.J. Foyt and pronounced
it competative. Foyt's opinion of Stewart's setup was unkind
at best.

Basicly Mario and Stewart had legs on the field and the first
and second spots were never contested. I read later that on
race day Stewart was quite ill. Or maybe that was said to
explain the loss!

Donahue in the Lola F5000 did well and greatly outpaced the
others in that class.

Basicly you got to see F1 cars on the west coast. Which was
not a bad thing at all.

buzard
Bob Thurman


#38 Marcor

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Posted 13 April 2001 - 13:25

Just a thought. Do you think It would be less unequal if the Americans had used Indy cars ?

The Europeans were totally outclassed in 1957 and 1958 at Monza 500...

#39 Keir

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Posted 13 April 2001 - 13:44

:eek: :cry:
The Indy-type cars of that era would never have got around the infield section. The F5000 cars were the best bet. :(

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#40 fines

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Posted 14 April 2001 - 18:17

Keir, without digging out my magazines and checking the speeds, I believe the Indycars would have trounced the stock-blocks in '71, even on a road course. Remember, USAC started to run at the Indianapolis Raceway Park in 1965 already, and ran several times at Mosport, St. Jovite, Riverside etc in the sixties.

#41 Keir

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Posted 14 April 2001 - 22:37

:yawn:
Fines,
And they were sooooooooooooo........................
SLOW
Not as bad as a top fuel dragster on a road course, but mighty slow indeed. In 1967 the Indy guys went to Fuji raceway with some of the hotshot F1 guys. Every straight was a dragstrip and every turn was a parking lot. Some of the cars still had the "Indy offset" suspension. :eek: The horror, the horror! :eek: :eek:

A F5000 car could out accelerate, outbrake and easily out-handle an Indy car of the period. The only thing Indy cars had in their favor was top speed, but just throw in a few tight turns and bye bye advantage!!:evil:

Also, take into evidence that at Monza in 1971, Ronnie Peterson had his March-Cosworth up to 225MPH!! And that's without a tow!!
By the time an Indy car got going that fast, it was time to stand on the brakes so you had some hope of getting through the turns.

Yes, lads, there is a Santa Claus and for road courses, if you didn't have an F1 under your ass, then F5000 was the next best thing. :up:

#42 fines

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Posted 15 April 2001 - 15:47

Ok Keir, you've got me started! :o I'm off for research...

#43 fines

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Posted 16 April 2001 - 00:09

Eat your words, Keir! :p

USAC ran 25 road races for Champ Cars, listed here by track and accompanied by FA/5000 as well as F1 races held at these tracks in the same time span for comparison. Always given is the pole winner and the speed, because race averages are often affected by caution periods or weather.

Indianapolis
1965-07-25 USAC (1.875 mi) - Mario Andretti, Hawk/Ford, 111.625 mph
1966-07-24 USAC (1.875 mi) - Lloyd Ruby, Lotus/Ford, 113.541 mph
1967-07-23 USAC (1.875 mi) - Lloyd Ruby, Mongoose/Ford, 117.310 mph
1968-07-21 USAC (2.5 mi) - Mario Andretti, Brawner/Ford, 99.086 mph
1969-07-27 USAC (2.5 mi) - Dan Gurney, Eagle/Weslake, 101.408 mph
1970-07-26 USAC (2.5 mi) - Mario Andretti, McNamara/Ford, 100.390 mph
no FA/5000 and F1 races

Fuji
1966-10-09 USAC (anti-clockwise) - Jackie Stewart, Lola/Ford T90, 117.832 mph
1976-10-24 F1 (clockwise) - Mario Andretti, JPS/Ford Mk 2, 133.995 mph
1977-10-23 F1 (clockwise) - Mario Andretti, JPS/Ford Mk 3, 134.995 mph
no FA/5000 races, almost impossible to compare to F1

Mosport
1967-07-01 USAC - Bobby Unser, Eagle/Ford, 102.672 mph
1967-08-27 F1 - Jim Clark, Lotus/Ford 49, 107.432 mph
1968-06-15 USAC - Dan Gurney, Eagle/Weslake, 108.551 mph
1968-08-24 SCCA FA
1969-08-23 SCCA FA
1969-09-20 F1 - Jacky Ickx, Brabham/Ford BT26A, 114.372 mph
1970-09-13 SCCA FA
1971-09-19 F1 - Jackie Stewart, Tyrrell/Ford Mk 1, 117.561 mph
1972-09-24 F1 - Peter Revson, McLaren/Ford M19C, 120.277 mph
1973-09-23 F1 - Ronnie Peterson, JPS/Ford 72E, 120.118 mph
1974-06-15 SCCA/USAC F5000 - Mario Andretti, Lola/Chevrolet T332, 118.189 mph
1974-09-22 F1 - Emerson Fittipaldi, McLaren/Ford M23B, 120.954 mph
1975-06-15 SCCA/USAC F5000 - Mario Andretti, Lola/Chevrolet T332, 120.757 mph
1976-06-20 SCCA/USAC F5000
1976-10-03 F1 - James Hunt, McLaren/Ford M23D, 122.289 mph
1977-07-03 USAC - Al Unser, Parnelli/Cosworth VPJ6B, 117.408 mph
1977-10-09 F1 - Mario Andretti, JPS/Ford Mk 3, 124.009 mph
1978-06-11 USAC - Danny Ongais, Parnelli/Cosworth VPJ6B, 121.983 mph
not much to chose between all three categories!

St. Jovite
1967-08-06 USAC - Bobby Unser, Eagle/Ford, 97.806 mph
1967-09-17 SCCA FA
1968-08-04 USAC - Mario Andretti, Brawner/Ford, 99.686 mph
1968-09-22 F1 - Jochen Rindt, Repco-Brabham BT26, 101.705 mph
1969-09-07 SCCA FA
1970-08-01 SCCA FA
1970-09-20 F1 - Jackie Stewart, Tyrrell/Ford Mk 1, 104.262 mph
F1 slightly faster than USAC

Riverside
1967-11-26 USAC (2.58 mi) - Dan Gurney, Eagle/Weslake, 117.736 mph
1968-12-01 USAC (2.58 mi) - Dan Gurney, Eagle/Weslake, 118.556 mph
1969-04-20 SCCA FA
1969-12-07 USAC (2.58 mi) - Dan Gurney, Eagle/Weslake, 122.307 mph
1970-04-19 SCCA FA
1971-04-25 SCCA FA
1972-09-24 SCCA/USAC F5000 (2.65 mi) - David Hobbs, Lola/Chevrolet T300, 126.240 mph
1973-04-29 SCCA/USAC F5000 (2.65 mi) - Jody Scheckter, Trojan/Chevrolet T101, 126.320 mph
1974-10-27 SCCA/USAC F5000 (2.65 mi) - Mario Andretti, Lola/Chevrolet T332, 132.026 mph
1975-10-26 SCCA/USAC F5000 (2.65 mi) - Mario Andretti, Lola/Chevrolet T332, 133.316 mph
1976-10-17 SCCA/USAC F5000
apparently, a slightly different track was used for F5000

Las Vegas
1968-03-31 USAC - Dan Gurney, Eagle/Weslake, 116.883 mph
no FA/5000 and F1 races

Castle Rock
1967-05-14 SCCA FA
1968-05-26 SCCA FA
1968-07-07 USAC - Ronnie Bucknum, Eagle/Ford, 87.396 mph
1969-06-08 SCCA FA - Jerry Hansen, Lola/Chevrolet, 89.411 mph
1969-07-06 USAC - Dan Gurney, Eagle/Weslake, 90.510 mph
1970-06-28 USAC - Al Unser, Colt/Ford, 91.461 mph
pretty much a draw!

Brainerd
1969-08-10 SCCA FA
1969-09-14 USAC - Al Unser, Lola/Ford, 116.756 mph
1970-08-16 SCCA FA
1971-08-15 SCCA FA
1972-07-29 SCCA/USAC F5000 - Jerry Hansen, Lola/Chevrolet T300, 120.328 mph
inconclusive

Kent
1969-07-06 SCCA FA
1969-10-19 USAC - Dan Gurney, Eagle/Weslake, 106.882 mph
1970-06-07 SCCA FA
1971-05-23 SCCA FA
1971-08-07 USAC FA
1973-09-30 SCCA/USAC F5000 - Brian Redman, Lola/Chevrolet T330, 106.580 mph
if it's still the same track, then USAC wins hands down!

Sears Point
1969-06-22 SCCA FA
1970-04-04 USAC - Mark Donohue, Lola/Chevrolet, 93.419 mph
1970-06-28 SCCA FA
insufficient data

Silverstone
1969-03-30 F1 (2.927 mi) - Jackie Stewart, Matra/Ford MS80, 130.249 mph
1969-06-15 BRSCC F5000 (2.927 mi)
1969-07-19 F1 (2.927 mi) - Jochen Rindt, Lotus/Ford 49, 130.410 mph
1970-04-26 BRSCC F5000 (2.927 mi) - Peter Gethin, McLaren/Chevrolet M10B, 126.496 mph
1970-04-26 F1 (2.927 mi) - Chris Amon, March/Ford 701, 129.449 mph
1970-06-06 BRSCC F5000 (2.927 mi)
1970-08-15 BRSCC F5000 (2.927 mi)
1971-05-08 F1 (2.927 mi) - Chris Amon, Matra-Simca MS120B, 131.715 mph
1971-05-08 F5000 (2.927 mi) - Mike Hailwood, Surtees/Chevrolet TS8, 126.043 mph
1971-07-17 F1 (2.927 mi) - Clay Regazzoni, Ferrari 312B2, 134.919 mph
1971-08-14 BRSCC F5000 (2.927 mi)
1972-04-22 BRSCC F5000 (2.927 mi) - Graham McRae, McRae/Chevrolet GM1, 131.059 mph
1972-04-23 F1 (2.927 mi) - Emerson Fittipaldi, JPS/Ford 72D, 134.919 mph
1972-08-06 BRSCC F5000 (2.927 mi)
1973-04-07 BRSCC F5000 (2.927 mi) - David Hobbs, Lola/Chevrolet T330, 135.963 mph
1973-04-08 F1 (2.927 mi) - Emerson Fittipaldi, JPS/Ford 72D, 137.921 mph
1973-07-14 F1 (2.927 mi) - Ronnie Peterson, JPS/Ford 72E, 138.102 mph
1974-04-06 BRSCC F5000 (2.927 mi) - Peter Gethin, Chevron/Chevrolet B28, 132.210 mph
1974-04-07 F1 (2.927 mi) - James Hunt, Hesketh/Ford 308, 137.382 mph
1975-04-12 BRSCC F5000 (2.927 mi) - Tony Dean, Chevron/Chevrolet B28, ???
1975-04-13 F1 (2.927 mi) - James Hunt, Hesketh/Ford 308B, 136.315 mph
1975-07-19 F1 (2.932 mi) - Tom Pryce, Shadow/Ford DN5A, 133.004 mph
1975-09-28 BRSCC F5000 (2.932 mi)
1976-04-11 F1 (2.932 mi) - James Hunt, McLaren/Ford M23D, 135.479 mph
1977-07-16 F1 (2.932 mi) - James Hunt, McLaren/Ford M26, 134.479 mph
1978-03-19 F1 (2.932 mi) - Ronnie Peterson, JPS/Ford Mk 3, 138.756 mph
1978-10-01 USAC (2.932 mi) - Danny Ongais, Parnelli/Cosworth VPJ6B, 128.429 mph
F1 slightly faster than F5000, USAC possibly affected by cold and damp track

Brands Hatch Club/Indy circuit
1969-04-07 BRSCC F5000 (possibly GP circuit)
1969-05-11 BRSCC F5000 (possibly GP circuit)
1969-09-28 BRSCC F5000 (possibly GP circuit)
1970-05-03 BRSCC F5000 (possibly GP circuit)
1970-09-27 BRSCC F5000 (possibly GP circuit)
1971-04-12 BRSCC F5000 (possibly GP circuit)
1971-09-26 BRSCC F5000 (possibly GP circuit)
1972-04-03 BRSCC F5000 (possibly GP circuit)
1972-09-24 BRSCC F5000 (possibly GP circuit)
1973-04-23 BRSCC F5000 (possibly GP circuit)
1973-08-27 BRSCC F5000 (possibly GP circuit)
1974-04-14 BRSCC F5000 - Brian Redman, Lola/Chevrolet T332, 98.630 mph (fastest race lap)
1974-08-26 BRSCC F5000 - Bob Evans, Lola/Chevrolet T332, ???
1975-03-31 BRSCC F5000 - Dave Walker, Chevron/Chevrolet B28, 88.888 mph (fastest race lap)
1975-08-25 BRSCC F5000 - Tony Brise, Lola/Chevrolet T332, ???
1976-04-19 BRSCC F5000 (possibly GP circuit)
1976-06-20 BRSCC F5000 (possibly GP circuit)
1976-08-30 BRSCC F5000 (possibly GP circuit)
1976-10-24 BRSCC F5000 (possibly GP circuit)
1976-11-07 BRSCC F5000 (possibly GP circuit)
1978-10-07 USAC - Al Unser, Lola/Cosworth T500, 105.811 mph
difficult to assess

The final verdict is still out, since there are obviously some gaps with the F5000 data (hopefully somebody can fill them in - Allen? Island?). Strangely, the German magazines of the time devoted more space to F3 or even TransAm races than F5000! Still, I would think it's pretty clear that the Champ Cars were at least the equal to the stock-blocks.

#44 Leif Snellman

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Posted 16 April 2001 - 17:51

The book "Ronnie!" by Ronnie Peterson/Sveneric Eriksson (1971) gives the following interesting results for the Questor GP
(In Dollars!!! :cool: )

1 Andretti $ 39.400
2 Stewart $ 25.250
3 Hulme $ 17.400
4 Amon $ 14.350
5 Schenken $ 13.550
6 Siffert $ 12.950
7 Grable $ 8.000
8 Gethin $ 11.850
9 Ganley $ 11.350
10 Rodriquez $ 12.150
11 Ickx $ 11.250
12 Cannon $ 6..250
13 Sell $ 6.000
14 Donohue $ 5.750
15 Bell $ 9.850
16 Unser $ 5.250
17 Adamowicz $ 5.000
18 Peterson $ 9.100
19 Hutchinson $ 4.500
20 Pescarolo $ 8.600
21 Fittipaldi $ 8.350
22 Posey $ 4.050
23 Bondurant $ 3.950
24 Revson $ 3.850
25 Savage $ 3.750
26 Hill $ 8.000

Note that the F1 drivers got better prizes than the Formula A drivers!

#45 Keir

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Posted 16 April 2001 - 20:09

:(
I don't know, fines!!

It seems that when a USAC car ran fast, it was not running an Offy, but a stock-block??

I don't mean to demean the Indy cars, but they just weren't on when it came to "full blown" road courses and I believe your stats show that to be true. I still remember that Mt.Fuji race in '67 to be a nightmare. And Fuji is not the most twisty bit of road out there. :down:

#46 fines

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 19:13

Only stock-block Indy engines in those list are the Gurney-Weslakes used by Dan himself, and even those were only stock-block by name! In fact, they were pretty much F5000 engines turned racers.

#47 Gerr

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Posted 19 April 2001 - 00:04

Keir, To refresh your memory.
Fuji was October 6 1966, not 1967. Graham Hill's Lola had off-set suspension and he was on the front row. Most of the cars had 2 speed gearboxes(not too good in the hairpin),Hill and Stewart had 4 speeds. Billy Foster was leading these "hotshot F1 guys" in his Vollstead-Ford until his final drive broke on lap 69.

Anyway comparing Indycars to F1/F5000 cars is apples to oranges.





#48 buzard

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Posted 19 April 2001 - 00:44

One thing to remember is that this was the age of the turbo
Offy. Not good on road courses (Riverside was the exception)
so teams had a stock block for the road races.

buzard


#49 biercemountain

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Posted 27 July 2001 - 19:35

I was reading an article from earlier this year in Motorsport magazine about the Questor Grand Prix held at Ontario Motor Speedway in California and had the following questions:
1. Does anyone have a track map of the circuit?
They quote Andretti (who won the race) as enjoying the track and finding it and interesting challenge.
2. Does anyone have a full set of race results including qualifying and finishing times along with fast lap data?

My insatiable curiousity needs to know.:confused:

#50 Leif Snellman

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Posted 27 July 2001 - 19:44

You can start by looking at:
http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=19356