Jump to content


Photo

Rosberg v. Schumacher, 2012


  • Please log in to reply
2151 replies to this topic

#51 InSearchOfThe

InSearchOfThe
  • Member

  • 481 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 19 January 2012 - 01:20

You must have some real inside information then. Unlike us.

Not sure where i read that MS didn't like the shorter wheelbase car.
Anyone hear of this before?
I'm not proud if proven wrong.

Advertisement

#52 ClockworkRacing

ClockworkRacing
  • Member

  • 316 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 19 January 2012 - 01:44

In 2011,Michael´s progressed on the race whereas NR fell behind,so that means that MS racecraft is better.If we still had 2010 tyres he wouldn´t save tyres and would do a bit better on qualy.But i think that MS only saved tyres because he knew that he had no chance against NR on qualy,so...

#53 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 19 January 2012 - 07:58

Not sure where i read that MS didn't like the shorter wheelbase car.
Anyone hear of this before?
I'm not proud if proven wrong.

Last year car has shortest wheelbase and it was said that the car was made for MS too? So, I don't think there is any connection with MS desire and wheelbase length. I am just worried if they go for very long car this year and all others go for shorter ones(especially if I see short RB8). Some say that without blown diffuser they don't need long car. I just hope the team will nail it this time.

Edited by ivand911, 19 January 2012 - 08:02.


#54 Raelene

Raelene
  • Member

  • 5,277 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 19 January 2012 - 08:19

this is what Rosberg said in 2010 when they moved to the longer wheelbase then....and what MS said about the shorter wheelbase


Source: Autosport

Nico Rosberg has rubbished talk that the upgrades made to his Mercedes GP at the Spanish Grand Prix mean it no longer suits him as well as Michael Schumacher.

The German struggled for pace at Barcelona last weekend with the longer wheelbase W01, with Schumacher seemingly more comfortable with the improved car.

But despite that state of affairs prompting wild suggestions that Mercedes GP had worked only to help Schumacher, Rosberg says the similarity of his and his team-mate's style make such a state of affairs impossible to achieve.


"We drive exactly the same way me and Michael, so it is not that you can build something that suits him better than me," said Rosberg in Monaco.
"The only fact is that I really struggle with understeer, which we have in the car at the moment. But we are looking into that to try to improve it because for sure it is not a good thing for Michael either. It is a bad thing for both of us, and that could be the only thing where I might struggle a bit more in the end."

Rosberg said he had worked hard with his engineers since Spain to try and understand why he had such a difficult time compared to Schumacher.

"We put a lot of analysis in, and my engineers and I seem to understand a few things about why it was difficult in general," he said. "In the end, one thing is for sure, we had a lot of understeer in the car - which we've had all year.

"But in Barcelona, with all the long corners, it was particularly difficult. And also with these tyres, there is a big risk of overloading them when you go into a corner, so you need to be very, very careful with all that and it took me a bit of time.

"Then eventually I was one tenth away from Michael in qualifying. He drove well and I think I can live with that. In the race it didn't go my way. I had an incident at the start, picked up a lot of mud on the bottom which destroyed my aero, and then it just went from there and was a disaster, so you can't really look at the race."

Mercedes GP has reverted to its shorter wheelbase car for this weekend's Monaco Grand Prix, because the suspension dynamics will be better suited to the tight street circuit.

And although Schumacher enjoyed a confidence boost from the longer wheelbase version, he understands why the team has reverted to the shorter suspension.
"The long wheelbase gives me a better range of set-up solutions," he said. "But if a long wheelbase with better set-up solutions is slower than a short wheelbase with no set-up solutions, then I guess I will take the short wheelbase. And that's what we most likely will have to face here."





#55 Mastah

Mastah
  • Member

  • 3,679 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 19 January 2012 - 09:16

A number of drivers chose to save tyres through 2012 qualifying and it paid off for MS on a number of races.


It's not about saving tyres by not going out in Q3. ivan suggested a lot of times that Schumi is slow in quali on purpose or that Nico is driving with quali set-up, which is silly excuse. Examples - saved tyres by not pushing too hard in quali, different set-up, driving slow is his strategy, again not pushing too hard, different set-up for different target times in quali (god, I laughed so hard at that one :lol:). What happened in real world? Nico destroyed teammate in quali by 1 second and destroyed him in the race by 4-5 tenths per lap. Had ivan admitted he was wrong? Nope. And as you see he still thinks he is right...


#56 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 16,620 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 19 January 2012 - 09:26

Tell that to Button who has never given a shit until he is in a winning position.


Ahem... I dunno where to start... 2003, 2004, 2005? His head might have dropped a bit in the last Honda years, but to wholly characterize him as not trying when he can't win is by no means justified, as far as I can see.

#57 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 19 January 2012 - 09:27

It's not about saving tyres by not going out in Q3. ivan suggested a lot of times that Schumi is slow in quali on purpose or that Nico is driving with quali set-up, which is silly excuse. Examples - saved tyres by not pushing too hard in quali, different set-up, driving slow is his strategy, again not pushing too hard, different set-up for different target times in quali (god, I laughed so hard at that one :lol:). What happened in real world? Nico destroyed teammate in quali by 1 second and destroyed him in the race by 4-5 tenths per lap. Had ivan admitted he was wrong? Nope. And as you see he still thinks he is right...

Do you have any proof that your "version" is right? If not ,then you are speculating like me. I can say that I will be sure in something if I was there and know what is happening and if I see how it is happening. As you were not there too, it is you word against mine and your word is not better than mine. So, you know what to do? :wave:
I remember Ross saying MS set up was more towards race and Nico's set up was more towards the Q. So, this is the best I can get to the true. About target times it was very clear from one qualifaing, they say something like 1:40.5 to MS and he did it. Nico was faster , so I think his target time was better and different from MS target. Also they have two race teams and both teams works sometimes with different means to get the best points possible. Simple.
I get that you will never understand that points are what matters in the end. How you get there , doesn't count. The result is important, not how you will get there. And many times MS get the better result.
I don't know what are you smoking , but there is facts showing MS much faster in many races than Nico. Lap difference up to 2 sec per lap. Check Singapore, Japan, Spa, Canada. And other.
So your "and destroyed him in the race by 4-5 tenths per lap" is silly. Make me :rotfl:
1 sec in Q also make me :rotfl: Check for the whole season what was Q difference.
http://abulafiaf1.fi...-comparison.png
http://abulafiaf1.wo...nalysis-part-b/

Edited by ivand911, 19 January 2012 - 11:14.


#58 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 19 January 2012 - 09:47

MS enormous ego


Exactly going where this stupid thread with it's stupid intro was always going to go...

Ok, I'll play, please qualify your statement that MS has an ego beyond any typical F1 driver or to stay true to the thread, any greater than Rosberg's ....


I laughed at the MS digging by Rosberg and DC in this clip FWIW ..

http://v.youku.com/v...g5MDU4OTMy.html

#59 LewEngBridewell

LewEngBridewell
  • Member

  • 58 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 19 January 2012 - 11:12

Schumi is superstitious, he asks numbers, Nico doesn't mind so lets him have it


Well good on Nico, he does all the talking on the track anyway.

Advertisement

#60 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 15,876 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 19 January 2012 - 11:20

Bit confused about the intro. Getting lots of praise and now called 'stupid'. I don't see it as at all unbiased - it's outrageously pro-Schumacher - but it's waaaaaaaaaaay better than some we've had in the past which amount to "'X' v 'Y'. Discuss"

I really don't know what to predict for this pairing in 2012. If performance follows a line then by rights Schumacher should just beat Rosberg but that assumes the car stays where it is and the natural finishing positions are 7/8, i.e. behind the 2011 top three.

Laughing at the idea that Schumie needs a good car in order to perform better than his teammate because I see no evidence for that in the past at all. Of course he does need a better car in order to win, but that's not the same at all - one of Schumies great strengths (as it is for all great champions) is that he never gives up and always does his very best. If he's not giving his best then the seat needs to be handed over to someone who will.

I'll predict a close finish again for 2012, but I'd really like to see them both on the podium occasionally, if not regularly.

#61 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 16,620 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 19 January 2012 - 11:26

Bit confused about the intro. Getting lots of praise and now called 'stupid'. I don't see it as at all unbiased - it's outrageously pro-Schumacher - but it's waaaaaaaaaaay better than some we've had in the past which amount to "'X' v 'Y'. Discuss"


Glad I'm not the only one getting his head screwed by that. I can't even make out if the critics find it too MS biased or not enough? :confused:

I would say it's at least an 8 out of 10 as far as the standard of intros here on the board goes, maybe even a 9.

#62 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,126 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 19 January 2012 - 12:05

Has description of Schumacher's position as "critical" with the teams any substance to it? Me thinks its exaduration. The team went out to great extend with statistics on Schumacher to point out false perceptions (repeatedly perpetuated) in public. I stick with the opinion of his team. He has some issues with the car, but Rosberg I think its not one that burdens his mind.

Edited by Sakae, 19 January 2012 - 12:09.


#63 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,500 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 19 January 2012 - 14:29

Bit confused about the intro. Getting lots of praise and now called 'stupid'. I don't see it as at all unbiased - it's outrageously pro-Schumacher - but it's waaaaaaaaaaay better than some we've had in the past which amount to "'X' v 'Y'. Discuss"

I really don't know what to predict for this pairing in 2012. If performance follows a line then by rights Schumacher should just beat Rosberg but that assumes the car stays where it is and the natural finishing positions are 7/8, i.e. behind the 2011 top three.

Laughing at the idea that Schumie needs a good car in order to perform better than his teammate because I see no evidence for that in the past at all. Of course he does need a better car in order to win, but that's not the same at all - one of Schumies great strengths (as it is for all great champions) is that he never gives up and always does his very best. If he's not giving his best then the seat needs to be handed over to someone who will.

I'll predict a close finish again for 2012, but I'd really like to see them both on the podium occasionally, if not regularly.


I am not sure I understand this part?

ouuf, I sure set myself up for a fail, with this. And I even felt I should argue my point. Grasping at straws is human nature, I admit its not one of my best thoughts.


#64 InSearchOfThe

InSearchOfThe
  • Member

  • 481 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 19 January 2012 - 15:25

Exactly going where this stupid thread with it's stupid intro was always going to go...

Ok, I'll play, please qualify your statement that MS has an ego beyond any typical F1 driver or to stay true to the thread, any greater than Rosberg's ....


I laughed at the MS digging by Rosberg and DC in this clip FWIW ..

http://v.youku.com/v...g5MDU4OTMy.html


Why would a 7x wdc come back after a 3 year retirement? And don't say money because he has more cash than god!
Then the whole car number thing. Sure his reputation as a mulitple champ gives him deserved clout, but he finished BEHIND Rosberg. Really it's between them. If Nico's ok with taking a lower number then good on him for being a bigger man.
What about the Rubens conflict? Trying to run him into a wall. For what? His own pride.
If you're a MS fan, then fine. I respect that. I'm not. A true champion doesn't try to kill another driver just to save face.
You're correct F1 drivers have egos. They have to, that's why they're at where they're at.
Schumacher is stuck on statistics. Trying to out do Senna. Which in my mind he could win 1000 races and NEVER BE AS GOOD AS SENNA.
MS has show time and time again that he'll do anything to win. I think he's crossed the line between an elite, all time great and an ego driver one.
Just one fans opinion from watching him the last 20 years.

#65 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 5,680 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 19 January 2012 - 15:38

What about the Rubens conflict? Trying to run him into a wall. For what? His own pride.

If he was trying to run him in the wall he would have done so. He squeezed a bit hard but don't get too dramatic about it. Even woobens got over it.

it was just a mistake for hard racing because that's what he does -> he races hard to the limit, sometimes a bit over it.
guess what, we all make mistakes

if you haven't understood this about michael's career then....I don't know what we are talking about here.

..also, he came back to race because he loves doing it. He also got the preferred number because he can do it. He's Michael

#66 InSearchOfThe

InSearchOfThe
  • Member

  • 481 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 19 January 2012 - 15:45

If he was trying to run him in the wall he would have done so. He squeezed a bit hard but don't get too dramatic about it. Even woobens got over it.

it was just a mistake for hard racing because that's what he does -> he races hard to the limit, sometimes a bit over it.
guess what, we all make mistakes

if you haven't understood this about michael's career then....I don't know what we are talking about here.

..also, he came back to race because he loves doing it. He also got the preferred number because he can do it. He's Michael

Look, i'm not here to argue with every Schumacher fanboy. You have your opinion and i have mine. Just don't go through life with blinders on. :)

#67 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 15,876 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 19 January 2012 - 15:51

@Szoelloe

Schumacher's performance was way behind Rosberg in 2010 and about the same (but different) in 2011. A reasonable continuation of that suggests Schumie will beat Rosberg.

The points differential between 7 and 8 is not the same as between 1 and 2 or 2 and 3. I'm saying that if it's the fourth best car then I'd expect Schumie to beat Rosberg by about the same points difference. If the car is further up or further down then the points difference changes so the scores will be quite different even if the performances are not.


#68 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,500 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 19 January 2012 - 15:56

@Szoelloe

Schumacher's performance was way behind Rosberg in 2010 and about the same (but different) in 2011. A reasonable continuation of that suggests Schumie will beat Rosberg.

The points differential between 7 and 8 is not the same as between 1 and 2 or 2 and 3. I'm saying that if it's the fourth best car then I'd expect Schumie to beat Rosberg by about the same points difference. If the car is further up or further down then the points difference changes so the scores will be quite different even if the performances are not.


Ok, thx, I get it now.


#69 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 19 January 2012 - 16:08


Why would a 7x wdc come back after a 3 year retirement? And don't say money because he has more cash than god!
Then the whole car number thing. Sure his reputation as a mulitple champ gives him deserved clout, but he finished BEHIND Rosberg. Really it's between them. If Nico's ok with taking a lower number then good on him for being a bigger man.
What about the Rubens conflict? Trying to run him into a wall. For what? His own pride.
If you're a MS fan, then fine. I respect that. I'm not. A true champion doesn't try to kill another driver just to save face.
You're correct F1 drivers have egos. They have to, that's why they're at where they're at.
Schumacher is stuck on statistics. Trying to out do Senna. Which in my mind he could win 1000 races and NEVER BE AS GOOD AS SENNA.
MS has show time and time again that he'll do anything to win. I think he's crossed the line between an elite, all time great and an ego driver one.
Just one fans opinion from watching him the last 20 years.

No need to answer me but: Trying to out do Senna?? :rotfl: I am sure he don't care about Senna(why he have to?). And he out do Senna long time ago , maybe around year 2001-2002. Now Senna is Fangio, Prost away from him. Very far in three times WDC bunch. And we all know why Senna is so famous. But not really.

Edited by ivand911, 19 January 2012 - 16:10.


#70 InSearchOfThe

InSearchOfThe
  • Member

  • 481 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 19 January 2012 - 16:15

No need to answer me but: Trying to out do Senna?? :rotfl: I am sure he don't care about Senna(why he have to?). And he out do Senna long time ago , maybe around year 2001-2002. Now Senna is Fangio, Prost away from him. Very far in three times WDC bunch. And we all know why Senna is so famous. But not really.

Well spoken. Well said. :confused: See my reply in post #66

#71 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 19 January 2012 - 16:33

OK, lets focus on the topic. 2012! Everything old is not for here.

#72 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 5,680 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 19 January 2012 - 16:41

Look, i'm not here to argue with every Schumacher fanboy. You have your opinion and i have mine. Just don't go through life with blinders on. :)

great :)
you can take the same advice :)

#73 FenderJaguar

FenderJaguar
  • Member

  • 1,412 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 19 January 2012 - 17:19

Exactly going where this stupid thread with it's stupid intro was always going to go...

Ok, I'll play, please qualify your statement that MS has an ego beyond any typical F1 driver or to stay true to the thread, any greater than Rosberg's ....


I'll bite this one time.
I know you know a lot about F1 so I don't understand that comment. You know the controversies so I really don't need to mention them all. But he has been involved in so many so many times from driving into Hill in 94 and onwards until Rascasse in 06 that to say that his ego is beyond a typical F1 driver is justified.

#74 InSearchOfThe

InSearchOfThe
  • Member

  • 481 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 19 January 2012 - 22:08

great :)
you can take the same advice :)

My eyes are wide open concerning MS, my friend!

#75 DutchCruijff

DutchCruijff
  • Member

  • 933 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 19 January 2012 - 22:23

I'll bite this one time.
I know you know a lot about F1 so I don't understand that comment. You know the controversies so I really don't need to mention them all. But he has been involved in so many so many times from driving into Hill in 94 and onwards until Rascasse in 06 that to say that his ego is beyond a typical F1 driver is justified.

He drove into Hill?

Your post has lost all credibility.

#76 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 15,876 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 19 January 2012 - 22:42

Throw away comment and inevitable retort now done. Balance has been restored so can we end it there and get back to Rosberg & Shumacher please?

#77 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,126 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 20 January 2012 - 16:14

Look, i'm not here to argue with every Schumacher fanboy. You have your opinion and i have mine. Just don't go through life with blinders on. :)

I am not sure who is actually wearing blinders; fanboys (your term), or his detractors. Just because of different perceptions that we voice in here, that doesn't follow there is clarity who is closer to the truth.

#78 Mastah

Mastah
  • Member

  • 3,679 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 22 February 2012 - 11:57

Very good interview with Mark Hughes, who is rightly considered to be one of the most authoritative voices in F1:

Let's start with Mercedes then. Nico Rosberg is one of the few drivers on the grid with a long-term contract safely deposited in the bank. Just how good is he?

MH: It's only a subjective feeling but I consider Nico to be good but not great. I think he is a 'par player', if you like. Deliver a winning car and he will deliver wins, but I don't see him transcending a car in the way that, for instance, Robert [Kubica] did for Renault - put Robert on a drivers' track like Monaco and suddenly he is on the front row with a mid-grid car. Nico could never do something like that. If a car's rightful place is seventh on the grid, he will put it seventh on the grid.

Mercedes have hailed him as a future World Champion though...

MH: Give him a winning car and he will win races and if they give him the fastest car he will have no problem winning a world title. There have been plenty to have won world titles in the past that way. But that's not the same thing as being a great driver because great drivers win races they have no right winning. Fernando [Alonso] can do that, Lewis [Hamilton] can do that, Jenson [Button] can do it in certain circumstances, Michael [Schumacher] used to do it regularly first time around, and [Sebastian] Vettel is good enough, I'm sure, to do that - as he showed at Monza 2008 - but he hasn't needed to subsequently. But with Nico, I've never seen any sign that he is capable of making that sort of difference to a car.

Even though he impressed in 2010?

MH: I think that being compared against a struggling Michael flattered the perception he received.


This is EXACTLY my opinion, which I presented here so many times. That's why it's bad for Schumi when he's getting beaten by "only" good driver, as he would be massacred by top driver like Fernando.

Will this be Michael's final year in F1 then?

MH: You would think so. Consider it from this perspective: if Mercedes can provide a car that is, say, as competitive as the McLaren was last season then having a guy who is consistently three or fourth tenths off the mark in qualifying is going to be a major problem - and very problematic for both parties.

Whereas it usually made no difference last season that Michael qualified so far away, in terms of lap time, behind Nico because Mercedes were in a midfield void all of their own?

MH: Exactly. Last season Mercedes existed in a vacuum where it didn't really matter how their drivers' qualifying lap times compared. They were 'always' seventh or eighth whereas if they were at the front then those three or fourth tenths would have been very costly every time.

What have you made of Michael on his return?

MH: I've seen no sign that he has been able to find what he had before. I used to marvel at how he would come out on track 'cold', long after everybody else had been going round for lap after lap, and be on the mark immediately - and not just on the pace but with the car sitting, straight away, on a knife-edge, where just one more input would have put it in the barriers. All you could say was 'Wow'. But since he has come back, I've just not seen that; he just looks like any other driver.

Although he hasn't lost any of his competitive spirit...

MH: He's still ballsy, he will still brake as late as he always did. The difference, though, is that now he has to deal with the consequences whereas before it was almost as if he could feel where the car was going to be.

But you have to admire his evident love of the sport and love of racing?

MH: I think he now has an appreciation of how finite a driver's career is and he is out to enjoy these bonus years. But if and when the pressure comes because Mercedes are delivering a potentially-race-winning car and he's not doing the job then it's not going to be so nice for him.

http://www1.skysport...Mark-Hughes-Q-A


Again he's right on the money. It's alost like he read my posts before giving interview :D.

#79 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,069 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 22 February 2012 - 12:23

Very good interview with Mark Hughes, who is rightly considered to be one of the most authoritative voices in F1:



This is EXACTLY my opinion, which I presented here so many times. That's why it's bad for Schumi when he's getting beaten by "only" good driver, as he would be massacred by top driver like Fernando.



Again he's right on the money. It's alost like he read my posts before giving interview :D.

It's funny you are for once grabbing a valid source to push your opinion down someone's neck simply because he is one of the few standing on the same side you are on. It's funny too that Mark Hughes exactly knows what is going on, his story is so incredibly detailed. Not. For now I haven't seen the pros thoughts on the different EBD settings last season. But once again you are showing you're willing to ignore everything else just to make a point. Classic mastah :stoned:

Advertisement

#80 spacekid

spacekid
  • Member

  • 2,410 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 22 February 2012 - 13:16

I don't see why things should be much different between Nico and Schumi this year. I think Nico will still have the edge on 1 lap pace for qualifying, and that Schumi will give himself a lot to do in the races. I think Nico will finish the season ahead on points again - by how much will depend on the pace of other cars in the upper midfield I think.

What I'm looking for from Nico this year is to take the fight to the other teams a bit more. Lets see how they get on...

#81 DutchCruijff

DutchCruijff
  • Member

  • 933 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 22 February 2012 - 15:41

Wait, so Rosberg can win races and win the championship in a race winning car but Schumacher, who's matched him, can't win races and win the championship in a race winning car. Shit logic created by a twat.

#82 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 15,876 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 22 February 2012 - 15:50

Posts deleted.

Nico v Michael, 2012. Please.

If you do not like or agree with someone's opinion, please argue against their opinion rather than just throwing 'fanboy or 'hater' around. If someone is trolling, report their posts and EXPLAIN WHY. Trolling != different opinion.

#83 Urawa

Urawa
  • Member

  • 1,135 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 22 February 2012 - 16:01

some thoughts from Ross Brawn about his drivers:

- Nico put the car sometimes to positions in qualifying where it didn´t belong, something Michael still has to to
- once Michael detected there is nothing to win against Nico in qualifying, he changed his strategy and optimized his setup for the race. That´s why he was a lot closer or faster on raceday
- the gap on saturday will likely stay the way it was during 10/11 although the 2012 tyres have a larger operation window and it looks like it´s easier to switch them on

(interview with sportbild)

Edited by Urawa, 22 February 2012 - 16:02.


#84 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 15,876 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 22 February 2012 - 16:22

Wait, so Rosberg can win races and win the championship in a race winning car but Schumacher, who's matched him, can't win races and win the championship in a race winning car. Shit logic created by a twat.

The bit in bold is completely subjective because Schumacher didn't 'match' at all. He lost out overall in both qualifying and race position. If you view their performances on a subjective level, I would tend to agree that they were about the same last year but none of the numbers bear that out which means there's loads of room for interpretation and contrary opinion. It also can only inform what we think will happen this year. No real need for the name calling :|

#85 SeanValen

SeanValen
  • Member

  • 16,933 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 22 February 2012 - 17:46

There were a few race occassions where Michael could of easily finished above Nico in the standings last year. What comes to mind is probabley Canada-the most impressive performance from a mercedes driver in 2011-Schumacher used the conditions well to be as high up as 2nd place-yet lost out due to what is I think a silly DRS rule in drying track conditions, which made it easier for Webber and Button to get ahead, that 2nd place-was also I think robbed from Michael, due to the FIA's soft policy on waiting for the track conditoins to really become less wet to effecitively make bringing wet tyres to the GP a waste of time :rolleyes: What is the bloody point of waiting for the track to be right for imtermeditates if you have wets tyres to use? THE FIA were too catious and we waited too long that day for the race to continue, I think Schumacher M lost out on his advantage in wet conditions, he could of also been the one who applied pressure on Vettel and perhaps get the win Button did, if not the win, 2nd place podium was his, if it wasn't for the FIA going completely bizarre with their scared approach to racing in the wet, I still find that race and the decions to delay it perhaps one of the most dissappointing wet race decisons I've have to see play out.

And it's not just Schumacher, any driver who needs wet conditons to have a better day against the top cars lost out that day, but the biggest was Schumacher. I think Michael also lost out some points at the nurburgring, against wet/drying conditons and DRS just don't mix, those points in my view merited him higher up then rosberg. I can't forsee Nico aving a better peformance in a race then Michael's in Canada in 2011, Michael could of done with some normal FIA races lol, his Monaco 2010 overtake on Alonso for 4th place and not getting the points was another issue. Hopefully he can have a good run without bizarre race decisions and a better car from mercedes to attack the big guns.

When you think of race performances or moments, Michael's Canada 2011, Spa 2011-from the back after technical issues iin qaulifying - and Monza 2011-his racing with Hamilton, they clearly stand out-I think Spain 2011 was also another eye opener, if you were to see Schumacher and how he handles traffic, much more better at reading it, Nico on the otherhand lost time through it, ironically Michael has been the better man at Spain in 2010 and 2011 and Monaco in the last 2 years, I think he sets up these cars well on these tracks he's normally done well on- I think also if Magny Cours and Imola were on the calender like they used to be, Rosberg wouldn't get near him, there are some tracks that make it easier for Michael to extract his skills-at the same time these cars/tyres still forced him into comprimises with set up, maybe going by his initial accessment of the new cars, he might do better on other tracks--that are not the best tracks driver wise, it's insane he clearly is better at Spain/Monaco/Spa etc, then has issues on other tracks, if he was slow on all these tracks, then there's a porblem, but because he was fast in 2011, it shows something can be done for the other tracks.

The offthrottle thing is going away
the tyres seem to be better for driving in 2012 going by comments made
These could be small things to make other weekends go a bit better, I can still see possibilities for improvement, and he did improve in 2011-looking at points tally only won't tell you everything.

Edited by SeanValen, 22 February 2012 - 17:51.


#86 baddog

baddog
  • Member

  • 23,029 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 22 February 2012 - 20:44

The bit in bold is completely subjective because Schumacher didn't 'match' at all. He lost out overall in both qualifying and race position.

Hmm well that's a bit of a reach there.. sure if you are a 'the numbers are the only thing that counts' guy then go for it, but in truth only the vagaries of fortune put Nico ahead on race finishes last year, which given the gap in qualifying means that Michael more than 'matched' him in races does it not?

#87 Kubiccia

Kubiccia
  • Member

  • 1,370 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 22 February 2012 - 21:41

Very good interview with Mark Hughes, who is rightly considered to be one of the most authoritative voices in F1:
This is EXACTLY my opinion, which I presented here so many times. That's why it's bad for Schumi when he's getting beaten by "only" good driver, as he would be massacred by top driver like Fernando.


Again he's right on the money. It's alost like he read my posts before giving interview :D.


Mastah, this have always have been exactly my opinion on the matter too. I fully agree with everything Mark Hughes said in the quotes you brought.

Nico is good, solid driver but is not somebody like Kubica, Alonso or prime Schumi.

I particularly share this view:

What have you made of Michael on his return?

MH: I've seen no sign that he has been able to find what he had before. I used to marvel at how he would come out on track 'cold', long after everybody else had been going round for lap after lap, and be on the mark immediately - and not just on the pace but with the car sitting, straight away, on a knife-edge, where just one more input would have put it in the barriers. All you could say was 'Wow'. But since he has come back, I've just not seen that; he just looks like any other driver.

Although he hasn't lost any of his competitive spirit...

MH: He's still ballsy, he will still brake as late as he always did. The difference, though, is that now he has to deal with the consequences whereas before it was almost as if he could feel where the car was going to be.


You brought something nice to the thread, thanks for this Mastah :up:

#88 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 23 February 2012 - 15:40

Mastah, this have always have been exactly my opinion on the matter too. I fully agree with everything Mark Hughes said in the quotes you brought.


I'm constantly amazed at the idolisation of Journalists, they are no better or worse in overall knowledge than a cross section of forum members.

Things are not true just because somebody else wrote it and you happen to agree with it.


#89 Kubiccia

Kubiccia
  • Member

  • 1,370 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 23 February 2012 - 16:35

Yes, Hughes is just somebody else with an opinion. It happens that I particularly share the same opinion on what he said there.

#90 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 15,876 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 23 February 2012 - 19:39

Hmm well that's a bit of a reach there.. sure if you are a 'the numbers are the only thing that counts' guy then go for it, but in truth only the vagaries of fortune put Nico ahead on race finishes last year, which given the gap in qualifying means that Michael more than 'matched' him in races does it not?

I don't think it's a reach. Nico WAS ahead on race position, regardless of the difficult circumstances and a number of those were down to Schumacher anyway because of his qualifying performance.

You think that Schumacher 'more than matched', DutchCruijff and I think he 'matched' while Hughes and Mastah think he didn't quite. If you ignore the points, which I have consistently done when looking at the last couple of years, then there's loads of room for subjectivity in there and none of these differing views are outrageously wrong, shit, or born of a twats mind.

Looking ahead to 2012, you'd have to say that if Schumie can start at or around the same place as Rosberg then he's got a far better chance of beating him on points or to the title of the car is capable because his race performance was good last year. If he can't qualify well, and has to fight his way through, then some of those fights will end badly and we can all have a bun fight about whose fault it was. I already know the results of that poll :well:

#91 baddog

baddog
  • Member

  • 23,029 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 23 February 2012 - 19:53

I don't think it's a reach. Nico WAS ahead on race position, regardless of the difficult circumstances and a number of those were down to Schumacher anyway because of his qualifying performance.

You think that Schumacher 'more than matched', DutchCruijff and I think he 'matched' while Hughes and Mastah think he didn't quite. If you ignore the points, which I have consistently done when looking at the last couple of years, then there's loads of room for subjectivity in there and none of these differing views are outrageously wrong, shit, or born of a twats mind.

Looking ahead to 2012, you'd have to say that if Schumie can start at or around the same place as Rosberg then he's got a far better chance of beating him on points or to the title of the car is capable because his race performance was good last year. If he can't qualify well, and has to fight his way through, then some of those fights will end badly and we can all have a bun fight about whose fault it was. I already know the results of that poll :well:


Well, I think that the matching/more than matching on race performance is a fact if looked at dispassionately (he started behind almost always and finished equal overall to all intents and purposes, that is significantly better race performance leaving other factors aside). It did not however quite make up for his less impressive qualifying form, which gives nico the year.

Indeed 2012 will be something to see, especially if the car is competitive.. and yes many controversies, isnt it fun?

#92 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,069 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 04 March 2012 - 16:20

Rosberg day one: 1.23.9. Schumacher day two: 1.23.9. Rosberg day three: 1.22.9. Schumacher: 1.22.9. What does this tell us, NR = MSC, or track conditions improve so NR > MSC slightly? I'm wondering if these times are comparable at all. Gonna look up some data.

Day 1: 6 lap stint, one fast lap (-).
Day 2: 9 lap stint, 3.8s dropoff.
Day 3: 14 lap stint, one very fast lap to start with and 4.5s dropoff. (7 laps was 3s dropoff)
Day 4: 7 lap stint, same and 2.8s dropoff.

Anybody know compounds?

Edited by Jejking, 04 March 2012 - 16:21.


#93 davegp3

davegp3
  • Member

  • 1,820 posts
  • Joined: July 03

Posted 04 March 2012 - 16:27

My prediction - state at the end of 2012 season:

Mr. Rosberg jr. 89 points
Mr. Schumacher 67 points.


Overal Mr. Rosberg jr. wins 3 to 0 and Mr. Schumacher retires after 3 lost seasons.

#94 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 04 March 2012 - 16:29

Rosberg day one: 1.23.9. Schumacher day two: 1.23.9. Rosberg day three: 1.22.9. Schumacher: 1.22.9. What does this tell us, NR = MSC, or track conditions improve so NR > MSC slightly? I'm wondering if these times are comparable at all. Gonna look up some data.

Day 1: 6 lap stint, one fast lap (-).
Day 2: 9 lap stint, 3.8s dropoff.
Day 3: 14 lap stint, one very fast lap to start with and 4.5s dropoff. (7 laps was 3s dropoff)
Day 4: 7 lap stint, same and 2.8s dropoff.

Anybody know compounds?

Yes, all were with soft tyres.


#95 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 04 March 2012 - 17:05

we can all have a bun fight about whose fault it was. I already know the results of that poll :well:


Adelaide '94 and Jerez '97 :lol:


#96 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,069 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 04 March 2012 - 18:25

Yes, all were with soft tyres.

Thanks for the info.

#97 Dolph

Dolph
  • Member

  • 4,201 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 04 March 2012 - 21:10

I think Schumi will outscore Nico this year as I assume the car will be better and MS will stop overcompensating with stupid mistakes in the midfield.

#98 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,069 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 05 March 2012 - 10:56

Not so sure about that :) Nico will be determined to show he's number one in the team and Michael is racing against the clock, his age. It will be interesting to say the least, ruling out midfield mistakes with a better car will provide better consistency for Schumacher on points basis but Rosberg will also be found more in the front of the field.

#99 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 05 March 2012 - 13:54

Surprised no ones mentioned the fastest times from testing for both are much the same, sure it's a thin thread to base any judgements on but if Nico had of been faster I'm sure someone would have mentioned it ...  ;)

Advertisement

#100 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,069 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 05 March 2012 - 18:56

Surprised no ones mentioned the fastest times from testing for both are much the same, sure it's a thin thread to base any judgements on but if Nico had of been faster I'm sure someone would have mentioned it ... ;)

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=5567789;)