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Rosberg v. Schumacher, 2012


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#1701 baddog

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 23:15

Ignore the point eh? You dont change a lot mate.

Do you honestly think Nico has been faster and more consistent this year? You really think that, taking Mechanicals and team cockups out Michael would not be handily ahead of him? Honest? Really?


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#1702 sharo

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 23:45

I personally get pleasure and enjoy every good drive no matter who the driver is. Even more if it happens to be one of my favorites. Point's therefore mean nothing to me as long as a fight for the title is impossible. Others possibly do not watch races and simply look at the points table and find some pleasure in the standings. It's their right, no problem here. The problem is when someone starts sticking the said table into the eyes of the rest every other day and at the same time absolutely ignores everything else which has been a factor in the final result. Such person is either living in his own world or fictional reality, or is simply a troll.
Nico, besides being fast, is one of the most uninspiring drivers on the grid. Almost invisible. Occasionally in rare cases tries to show some character and most often goes to the other extreme, especially if his teammate is near. Even Paul Di Resta, whom many people call a dull driver, is much more visible and has much more presence during a race.
But if someone follows F1 only because of the points, not noticing and getting excited by good racing and skills, that person better look for some other more quiet sport where points are all that matters.

#1703 baddog

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 00:04

I wouldn't be quite that hard on Nico, there is room for all kinds of driving style and he does have a LOT of innate speed. But yes his tendency to drive like button around other drivers and like hamilton around his teammate is pretty obvious and a bit sad.

#1704 Kompressor

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 00:28

But if someone follows F1 only because of the points, not noticing and getting excited by good racing and skills, that person better look for some other more quiet sport where points are all that matters.

The 'points' that result in WDC's are all the Schumacher fans seem to bray about. Glad to know that all those points no longer matter. :wave:


#1705 baddog

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 00:39

The 'points' that result in WDC's are all the Schumacher fans seem to bray about. Glad to know that all those points no longer matter. :wave:

Never really been the case for most of us.. hundreds of amazing drives, great dominant performances as soon as the car was best, epic dices, taking championships to the wire in blatantly inferior cars.. those are the things that made us fans of the Man. Sure his results are great but thats over a whole career and doesnt fly in the face of observed reality.

Claiming Nico has been ahead THIS YEAR does fly in the face of observed reality, because he has not.

Find a year where Michael drove less well than someone else but ended up ahead of them and we can talk.




#1706 Dan333SP

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 00:48

It is really funny... I remember posting after a recent race about how there were only 3 or 4 posts about that race in this thread within a couple days of the race (in which MS out-qualified and out-raced Rosberg), and now that MS had a bit of a goose egg, there are of course several new pages and the same old haters back in force. So predictable.

#1707 Wolf

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 00:59

Well, I wouldn't be so categoric about Nico being 'undeservedly' ahead on points. Sure, Merc has cost MS a fair bit of points, but it has also been his own doing... Nico had a bad spell for a few races, let's say he did fade a bit, but MS got himself in few unnecessary 'situations' where he dropped points by his errors (e.g. made two mistakes of his own, which will cost him good placement in four races, and those are not only instances AFAIR). All in all, Nico had won on a merit, whereas MS 'maybe could've won' (which personally I don't think he could've), and in positions they find themselves finishing, those 25 points mean a lot. They both suffered from unfortunate strategy calls, but I do claim that Nico is ahead, when it comes to performance, rather than points- and add to that Japan, where he will have easier task of outperforming MS once again)...

#1708 baddog

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:06

Well, I wouldn't be so categoric about Nico being 'undeservedly' ahead on points. Sure, Merc has cost MS a fair bit of points, but it has also been his own doing...

Well maybe you should do the maths and post it here. Or I can but I will be accused of fiddling the numbers no doubt. Just giving Michael the obvious win in Monaco, an ungenerous 4th in Australia and second in China should do the trick though, reducing Nico by 3 points to 90 and upping Michael by 55 points to 98

Edited by baddog, 27 September 2012 - 01:15.


#1709 Wolf

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:23

Would you fiddle with them? :) We may disagree with interpretations of some of them, sure- but that would be the whole point, right? I wouldn't want to trouble to do the whole thing, but certainly wouldn't accuse you of cheating- but to test interpretations of numbers, let's take a small test...

How would you rate Monaco GP? MS outqualified NR, but would you say he outperformed him in the race? (I wouldn't) Would you say that Merc has cost him a scoring finish? (I would put it that Merc cost him 2 points, but he has thrown away pole position, and possibly 23 points)

Hopefully, I won't be cheeky and lazy, but if you care to tell how much points did Merc unreliability cost MS?

#1710 Wolf

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:31

Oh, but why would we give win to MS in Monaco? I would see your point if he dropped five starting positions for gearbox change, or something like that- but he dropped them for causing a collision with Senna the lesser, hardly the team's fault.

#1711 baddog

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:41

Oh, but why would we give win to MS in Monaco? I would see your point if he dropped five starting positions for gearbox change, or something like that- but he dropped them for causing a collision with Senna the lesser, hardly the team's fault.


I thought we were assessing relative performance. Sure make him 3rd or something in Monaco if you like, then add in all the rest.

#1712 MarcelBrDirani

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 01:49

Well maybe you should do the maths and post it here. Or I can but I will be accused of fiddling the numbers no doubt. Just giving Michael the obvious win in Monaco, an ungenerous 4th in Australia and second in China should do the trick though, reducing Nico by 3 points to 90 and upping Michael by 55 points to 98



Baddog,

Let´s assume MS did in fact start on pole. His own merit as he was faster than Nico in qualy. Let´s assume Maldonado hit him, MS, just after the start and Michael is out.
Nico finishes in second or first, it doesn´t matter. In your opinion, MS had beaten Nico or not?

Really trying to understand you point of view.


BTW, i think Nico and MS are really close this year. Think Nico is a bit better but understand someone who thinks quite the opposite (MS slightly better).

#1713 Jimisgod

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 08:46

How can this make any sense? Assuming you are right, what happened tpo MS last year and the year before? He is older now, why he wasn´t fast enough to beat Nico? The ONLY explanation, altough many here don´t like it, is simple.

C´mon, it is just a matter of adapting to the car. The diff between top drivers (Alonso, Hamilton, and Vettel and maybe someone in a not top car) and very good drivers (Nico, Michael, Perez, PdResta and some others) is way smaller than the dif. of a guy feeling confortable and extracting the most of the car to one who can´t do it. Some drivers have enough skill to drive and extract 100% of a car, no matter wich car is it and some do not.


How in the **** can you include those two when they have only ever driven in one team for 1 and a half years? :rotfl: Three podiums in a midfield car in your second year seems pretty well adapted. :rolleyes: :down:

By that token, Kimi was out for two years, came back with DRS and no refueling now and is 3rd.

Posted Image

Also, the cars became longer.

So, Schumacher hasn't honestly adapted to a lack of refueling and slick tyres with the current aero rules, I concede that.

Edited by Jimisgod, 27 September 2012 - 08:49.


#1714 aditya-now

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 08:46

Ironic that back in the day Michael Schumacher was lauded as being able to extract 110% from a dog car, now some are using the opposite argument to explain Michael's lack of performance vs Rosberg, almost every comment I read from his faithful fans derides the the car as a POS, so it should follow that this is an advantage for Schumacher relative to Rosberg not a disadvantage . Considering Schumacher's much touted ability to "ring the neck" of a bad car and extract everything it has to offer and more, he should be showing a clean set of heels to Rosberg at all times.
When you add up all the advantages Schumacher had at Ferrari and no longer enjoys at MB it becomes clear that these new circumstances are just to much for the old boy to deal with. No preferential treatment in the team, no tailor made tires, limited testing, no best car in the field, no special help from FIA ... now that Schumacher has to compete fair and square with a top flight driver it is abundantly clear that he was never as good as some might have us believe he was.
As the old saw goes "The older I get the faster I was"


I wouldn't call Rosberg a "top flight driver", but that does not help Schumacher either...


#1715 pUs

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:49

See the current points standings as well as points totals from 2011, 2010 for factual confirmation of this assertion


Factual confirmations, ok. But when it comes to 1991-2006 then point totals are probably of lesser importance, no?

Edited by pUs, 27 September 2012 - 11:49.


#1716 SenorSjon

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 12:20

You got less points back then. I think the current system is inflated and makes a wreckage of any point scoring statistic.

#1717 spacekid

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 12:37

Michael Schumacher 2012 != Michael Schumacher 1996

His performance against Rosberg is not a reasonable yardstick with which to beat his first career.

#1718 SlateGray

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 17:14

Factual confirmations, ok. But when it comes to 1991-2006 then point totals are probably of lesser importance, no?


Just different scales so consider the difference with the different systems in mind. But I agree it does give a different picture.

The general point being Schumacher is getting a sound beating from Rosberg, Schumacher's fans cannot accept the facts as they are so they do all sorts of mental gymnastics, excuse making, car blaming, and any other mitigating factors they can dream up to convince themselves that Schumacher is somehow getting on par with or even beating Rosberg, lol, even when the facts say otherwise. Purely delusional in some cases. Such is the nature of blind loyalty and devotion!

#1719 sharo

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 17:26

If this is what you call sound beating, then I very much wish Hamilton goes to Mercedes. And let's see who beats whom :)

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#1720 MarcelBrDirani

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 18:41

Never really been the case for most of us.. hundreds of amazing drives, great dominant performances as soon as the car was best, epic dices, taking championships to the wire in blatantly inferior cars.. those are the things that made us fans of the Man. Sure his results are great but thats over a whole career and doesnt fly in the face of observed reality.

Claiming Nico has been ahead THIS YEAR does fly in the face of observed reality, because he has not.

Find a year where Michael drove less well than someone else but ended up ahead of them and we can talk.




Not true. MS fans use to say MS "beat" Senna in 1994, even knowing Senna set ALL poles, and was ahead of MIchael in ALL 3 races before had a mech problem, was rammed by Mika or was overtaken by an illegal car.


If you look to old races as close as you watch Nico x MS races taking in consideration mech problems , oponents cars, etc, you will find out that there was no "hundredes od amzaing drives", no epic dices, and of course no blatantly inferior cars.

The worst car MS has ever driven in F1 is the same car Nico could get his first and only win. I really would like to see Alonso, Vettel or Ham in this Mercedes. Not to mention Senna (in this case, we would have to hear the Mercedes is the best car or second best).


MS can win races this year. He, IMO, can win next year if he continues. It all depends on how good his car, IF he can adapt to it and how good his teamate is (assuming MS doesn´t get number one status AGAIN)

The only thing i am 100% sure is IF MS wins races year you will say that this is a proof of his greatness (no matter HOW it happened).

Edited by MarcelBrDirani, 27 September 2012 - 19:00.


#1721 Szoelloe

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 18:49

This is the most hurtful backside of MS making a fool of himself in a race. Open gates at the zoo. The jackals pop up at once.

#1722 Sof1

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 05:45

Michael beats Rosberg again in Quali :p

#1723 Junky

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 05:56

Michael beats Rosberg again in Quali :p


Again...

#1724 Fildischum

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 06:03

Again...


And thats from a man who lacks motivation to continue driving and his battery on the redzone. :up: Anyway, the car is to blame and still a dog after those updates.

#1725 exmayol

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 06:10

I just felt like giving this thread a nice bump! Retiree does it again!

#1726 baddog

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 06:10

Amazing that the guy retiring remains pretty consistently faster (in spite of the team's best efforts to screw him up this session) than his young and undeniably fast teammate.

#1727 Diablobb81

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 06:11

Again faster? tsk, tsk, tsk

#1728 yuffyuff

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 06:13

Amazing that the guy retiring remains pretty consistently faster (in spite of the team's best efforts to screw him up this session) than his young and undeniably fast teammate.



Msc-9
Ros-6

#1729 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 06:14

So it's 9-6 for Schumacher right now, although with penalties added on it's actually 8-7 for Rosberg.

Note that MSC had an issue in Bahrain and he didn't run in Q3 Spain (ROS marginally faster there in Q2). Also, neither car ran in Singapore Q3, where MSC got the quali point (MSC faster there in Q2).

Edited by PoliFanAthic, 06 October 2012 - 06:14.


#1730 ali.unal

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 06:38

Score of the last seven races: Schumacher 6 - 1 Rosberg. May we call that a slight domination?

#1731 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 06:52

Schumacher trumps him again it's a shame he's retiring...

Lord knows what Hamilton will do to Rosberg next season.

#1732 ClubmanGT

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 07:13

Score of the last seven races: Schumacher 6 - 1 Rosberg. May we call that a slight domination?


No because Schumacher is told and <insert F1 media narrative here>.

#1733 Number62

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 07:33

Score of the last seven races: Schumacher 6 - 1 Rosberg. May we call that a slight domination?


Are those the facts and anything else it doesn't matter?

#1734 ali.unal

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 07:40

Are those the facts and anything else it doesn't matter?

1) Yes.
2) No.

#1735 SparkPlug

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:41

Score of the last seven races: Schumacher 6 - 1 Rosberg. May we call that a slight domination?

If you're talking qualifying, I think its more like 5-2 in the last 7 and 5-3 in the last 8.

#1736 SparkPlug

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:13

In fact, here is the detailed break up for the last few races:

Japan : MS
Singapore : MS (by virtue of both Mercedes drivers not opting to set a time in Q3)
Italy : MS
Belgium : MS on paper, but Rosberg suffered a gearbox problem, so this clearly doesnt count.
Hungary : NR (Cant ignore this result, Schumacher couldnt set a time on the hard tyre while Rosberg did and got through)
Germany : MS
Britain : MS
Valencia : NR
Canada : NR

So if you do take the last 9 sessions, we can safely conclude the score as 5-3 while excluding Spa. To be honest we shouldnt even consider Singapore as Rosberg was faster than Schumacher in Q1 and Schumacher was faster in Q2, and in Q3 neither driver chose to run.

The score in qualifying is not as "dominant" by any means. And the story in races is different, Rosberg has a slight edge over Schumacher inspite of MS's uptick in form.

#1737 Urawa

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:00

Wouldn´t give Canada to Rosberg as Michael got screwed by the team and send him out too late so he had no second try (he was ahead in Q1 and Q2).
Everything else is correct I think.

Edited by Urawa, 06 October 2012 - 10:01.


#1738 yuffyuff

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:19

So it's 9-6 for Schumacher right now, although with penalties added on it's actually 8-7 for Rosberg.

Note that MSC had an issue in Bahrain and he didn't run in Q3 Spain (ROS marginally faster there in Q2). Also, neither car ran in Singapore Q3, where MSC got the quali point (MSC faster there in Q2).


How did Rosberg managed to get ahead of msc, even with michael's crash?
It's ridiculous Rosberg finishing in front of Michael on current form! Lol
You've only got to look at silvestone and Germany to see when the cars performance is negated by weather conditions schumi completely out drove the car, on to the 2nd row.
It's not a surprise he decided to decline a 4th year with a car that's over a sec off the pace in race trim.

#1739 black magic

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:19

Reminds me of the tortoise v hare story

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#1740 sharo

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:21

After all the latest events and developments does it really matter?

#1741 mkoscevic

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 11:35

Now, this is why it's such a shame that Schumacher stopped with driving (top F1 cars).

#1742 DutchCruijff

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 11:43

Out qualifying Nico, as per. Not entirely sure why Mercedes would rather keep on an inferior driver who doesn't anywhere near bring the brand attention and reputation that Schumacher does. Oh and also that MSC vs Hamilton would have been one of the most exciting driver line-ups for decades.

Numbskulls.

Edited by DutchCruijff, 06 October 2012 - 11:43.


#1743 Dolph

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 14:13

After all the latest events and developments does it really matter?


You are speaking as if this thread made a large difference before the "latest events and developments"

#1744 Dolph

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 14:14

Well done by MS yet again beating NR

#1745 Paco

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 15:31

Out qualifying Nico, as per. Not entirely sure why Mercedes would rather keep on an inferior driver who doesn't anywhere near bring the brand attention and reputation that Schumacher does. Oh and also that MSC vs Hamilton would have been one of the most exciting driver line-ups for decades.

Numbskulls.


They didn't exactly have a choice.. Schumi wouldn't give them an answer on their offer so they were forced to make a decision. By all accounts, seemed Michael had at least a 1yr offer but was humming and hawwing..

#1746 MSCDesign

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 15:37

In fact, here is the detailed break up for the last few races:

Japan : MS
Singapore : MS (by virtue of both Mercedes drivers not opting to set a time in Q3)
Italy : MS
Belgium : MS on paper, but Rosberg suffered a gearbox problem, so this clearly doesnt count.
Hungary : NR (Cant ignore this result, Schumacher couldnt set a time on the hard tyre while Rosberg did and got through)
Germany : MS
Britain : MS
Valencia : NR
Canada : NR

So if you do take the last 9 sessions, we can safely conclude the score as 5-3 while excluding Spa. To be honest we shouldnt even consider Singapore as Rosberg was faster than Schumacher in Q1 and Schumacher was faster in Q2, and in Q3 neither driver chose to run.

The score in qualifying is not as "dominant" by any means. And the story in races is different, Rosberg has a slight edge over Schumacher inspite of MS's uptick in form.


Australia : MS
Malaysia: MS
China: NR
Bahrain: / (msc drs problem)
Spain: / (msc no run in Q3)
Monaco: MS



#1747 kyriakos75

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 16:05

Schumacher trumps him again it's a shame he's retiring...


But you must be wrong, 'Sir' Jackie Stewart said Schumacher should have retired a while ago :rotfl:


#1748 schumimercamg

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 18:12

Anyone else notice that Michael absolutely spanked Rosberg on Primes in Q1?

#1749 BetaVersion

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 18:14

Msc-9
Ros-6


Stop with this ok?

It's 8-7 to Rosberg by FOM counts. :drunk:

Seriously, why those muppets at FOM keeps presenting that "qualifying battle" graphic as it's misleading in many cases? They will count this to Nico, as they did in Monaco and etc


Watching the qualifying live, it got the feeling MSC could have make to Q3. He had way less running than Nico but was always faster.

In Q1, Nico had some running on hards and did only 1.33.6. Then, he used softs because with that time he would be behind Bruno Senna, and therefore out already in Q1, and went to 1.33.0. MSC had a single very late out with hards in Q1. He made a mistake in his first lap and backed off, then, as a consequence, he had only a single attempt left on non fresh hard tires to pass Q1. To make it worse, he faced lot of traffic at T7(2 cars compromised his racing line) and was 4 tenths down on 17th in S1, after it. After seeing that, I thought to myself: "It's over, Mercedes screwed him big time, once more" and was furious with the situation.

Michael then did a great job in S2 and S3 and made a 1.33.3 which is 3 tenths faster than Nico's time with hards. And without that traffic I think he would put a very big gap on Nico's hard tire time.

I don't understand what Mercedes was doing with MSC this qualifying. He had only late single outs.

Nico used more softs tires and could explore more of it. Still, Schumacher was almost 2 tenths faster with a single attempt and a compromised S2 due to traffic at Spoon.

Schumacher was 2 tenths faster than Nico on S1 alone, and also a bit faster on short S3. With a traffic free S2, he would be some 4 tenths faster than Rosberg

Michael Schumacher (13th, Q2 - 1m 32.469s)
“It was a shame that we couldn't do more today, after things hadn't looked too bad this morning, but we simply didn't get the performance together. Although we should also say that, knowing the high-speed characteristics of this circuit, we didn't necessarily expect to look in great shape here. Perhaps I could have made it through to Q3, because the data showed that I lost two-tenths in turn 11 because of traffic, but I wasn't quite sure what Hamilton was doing ahead of me. I saved a lot of tyre sets and in that respect got the maximum out of the situation.


I don't know what Mercedes were doing with MSC there. Why the late single runs, and why only use on set of softs?

This circuit is tough on tires and everybody plans to use the softs only in one stint. Schumi got 2 new fresh left and one will be to no use, I suppose. Unless, they opted for a very risky agressive strategy of 2 stints with softs.

I think with 2 runs on softs, in Q2, Schumacher would confortably pass to Q3 and be more than half second faster than Nico

Edited by BetaVersion, 06 October 2012 - 18:20.


#1750 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 18:22

if MS will end the race in front of Nico Mercedes will look very very bad