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Rosberg v. Schumacher, 2012


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#1801 ivand911

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 06:38

Rosberg still has been the better + more consistent Mercedes driver when we're talking race performances IMHO.

Yeah, his car too. So, we can say Nico car is faster than MS car. And reliable too.


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#1802 Raelene

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 07:05

you need to put in point 3 - reliability and strategy....

and where he was when reliability hit

MSC has made 2 race ending mistakes.



#1803 SparkPlug

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 07:14

Yeah, his car too. So, we can say Nico car is faster than MS car. And reliable too.

More reliable, yes. But faster ? Are you claiming that MS was given slower machinery than Rosberg by the same team ?

#1804 SparkPlug

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 07:14

you need to put in point 3 - reliability and strategy....

and where he was when reliability hit

MSC has made 2 race ending mistakes.

Spain +2 mistakes at Hungary + Singapore. All mistakes that cost his team and himself some valuable points.

#1805 Raelene

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 07:20

no more than the team have cost him. As I said - you need to add that to your equation....


#1806 SparkPlug

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 07:24

no more than the team have cost him. As I said - you need to add that to your equation....

Lets keep the points tally aside for a moment as a lot of you guys say. Can you still prove Schumacher is the better driver this year ? Take the bad reliability into consideration for both (yes, a gearbox failure in qualifying for Nico, which forces him to the back of the grid is also counted as 'bad reliability')



#1807 Raelene

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 07:27

why don't you look at the races - see where MSC was in terms of Nico when he had his failures - if they were his fault - give that one to Nicio - if they were teams strategy or car fault - give that one to Michael.

#1808 grebsor

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 07:59

Lets keep the points tally aside for a moment as a lot of you guys say. Can you still prove Schumacher is the better driver this year ? Take the bad reliability into consideration for both (yes, a gearbox failure in qualifying for Nico, which forces him to the back of the grid is also counted as 'bad reliability')

2 gearbox failures: at Hockenheim and Spa

#1809 malibu

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:48

When a car is slow and inconsistent, team mates comparison becomes difficult.
I rate Rosberg very high but shumi showed how quick he is. Even if i wasn't a fan, i consider him as a great champion.

Next year will be very interesting and give a lot of informations (hamilton vs rosberg)

Edited by malibu, 08 October 2012 - 09:00.


#1810 SparkPlug

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 09:08

Rosberg - Schumacher

Australia
Schumacher faster till his retirement, not counted. 0-0

Malaysia
Point to Schumacher. 0-1

China :
Rosberg lapping significantly quicker till Schumacher retires from 2nd place.Should be counted in Rosberg's favor as he smoked Schumacher in both qualifying and till the time MS retired. Point to Rosberg.1-1

Bahrain :
Schumacher compromised in qualifying with gearbox issue, not counted. However, before the gearbox struck he was genuinely slower than Rosberg in qualifying (qualified 18th), and in the race too Rosberg put in a very good performance with notable wheel to wheel racing with Hamilton and Alonso. The favorable result towards Rosberg would not change if MS started 18th instead of 23rd. Point to Rosberg. 2-1

Spain :
Schumacher mistake, Point to Rosberg. 3-1

Monaco :
Hard to predict who is the better driver under race trim, Schumacher was compromised by the penalty and Grosjean at the start. Rosberg drove a clean race to come home 2nd. Lets keep this also under the 'not counted' category then (although I am very tempted to put this as a point for Rosberg, as the penalty is frankly due to Schumacher's own mistake and not a team/car error of any sort). 3-1

Canada :
Schumacher DNF, mechanical problem. Not counted. 3-1

Valencia :
Point to Schumacher.3-2

Great Britain:
Point to Schumacher.3-3


Germany :
Point to Schumacher. (Again,this time Rosberg got the gearbox penalty after a poor qualifying which left him stranded in 18th place compared to 3rd for Schumacher. The result wouldn't have changed even without the penalty) 3-4

Hungary :
Schumacher makes two major mistakes during the race in addition to the poor qualifying effort which knocked him out of Q1. Point to Rosberg.4-4

Belgium :
Rosberg gets gearbox penalty pushing him down to 23rd from 18th. Rosberg had a very good race overall inspite of this, making up 10 places in the start and then finishing just out side the points. Not counted.

Italy :
Point to Schumacher. 4-5

Singapore :
Schumacher race ending shunt. Point to Rosberg.5-5

Japan :
Rosberg retires through no fault of his own. Not counted.


So all in all, I can see that the comparison with all things considered stands completely equal at 5-5 in race conditions inspite of making considerations like not counting Monaco in Rosberg's favor.

The major differentiator being the 3 races in which Schumacher made major mistakes(plus Monaco which was ruined due to his penalty as a result of his shunt in Spain). So why are we having folks going around claiming Schumacher has 'dominated' Rosberg in either qualifying or race this year ?? If anything its safe to conclude that Rosberg has been the slightly better driver this year even if one accounts for reliability.



#1811 Raelene

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 09:21

why would you not count Monaco

why do you count Bahrain but not Australia and spa? are you using different criteria for both drivers??

Edited by Raelene, 08 October 2012 - 09:23.


#1812 malibu

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 09:32

Overall, Rosberg is faster. When you think of the "all season" live timing, the overall impression is that rosberg has the edge

#1813 grebsor

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 09:56

Rosberg - Schumacher

Australia
Schumacher faster till his retirement, not counted. 0-0

Bahrain :
Schumacher compromised in qualifying with gearbox issue, not counted. However, before the gearbox struck he was genuinely slower than Rosberg in qualifying (qualified 18th), and in the race too Rosberg put in a very good performance with notable wheel to wheel racing with Hamilton and Alonso. The favorable result towards Rosberg would not change if MS started 18th instead of 23rd. Point to Rosberg. 2-1

Canada :
Schumacher DNF, mechanical problem. Not counted. 3-1


Australia. Rosberg started to catch Schumacher after he got passed by Vettel. So I wouldn't say Schumi was faster.
Bahrain. You forgot that Schumacher was slower in qualy because he had a failure with DRS. But in race everything was ok with his car, but Rosberg still faster.
Canada. Schumacher wouldn't finished ahead of Rosberg even without that problem. He was having not a very good race.


#1814 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 09:58

Spain +2 mistakes at Hungary + Singapore. All mistakes that cost his team and himself some valuable points.

so that's 3 races where MS made mistakes that affected the team. The potential the car had in this races? Maybe 15 points lost in TOTAL...
Let's look at the number of races where the team made mistakes that affected him....Australia and China (running in podium positions), failure in Monaco, Canada.

#1815 SparkPlug

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:01

why would you not count Monaco

Why do you want me to include it ? If you do count Monaco it would go to Rosberg anyway. [The penalty is no-one's fault but Schumacher's]

why do you count Bahrain but not Australia and spa? are you using different criteria for both drivers??

Bahrain and Germany both are counted because

In Bahrain, Schumacher qualified poorly compared to his teammate (18th) before he got the gear box penalty. So even if he did start the race in 18th, he wouldn't have been able to beat Rosberg in the race

In Germany, Rosberg got a gearbox penalty after the qualifying, but again, he was terrible in qualifying 18th compared to 3rd for Schumacher. The result wouldn't have changed even without the gearbox penalty

Spa is not considered because Rosberg qualified relatively very close to Schumacher and the gearbox penalty did affect the final outcome between the two.

I have written all of this pretty clearly, it would be good if you take some time to read before posting the next time  ;)



#1816 Raelene

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:03

I did - which is why I questioned your criteria... which seems a little scewed IMO towards one driver...

#1817 SparkPlug

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:05

so that's 3 races where MS made mistakes that affected the team. The potential the car had in this races? Maybe 15 points lost in TOTAL...
Let's look at the number of races where the team made mistakes that affected him....Australia and China (running in podium positions), failure in Monaco, Canada.

As mentioned before, lets leave the points aside for a moment and discuss specifically who has been the better driver while accounting for the reliability issues which the team is responsible for.

Talking about which races had how many points lost is just going to be lost in hyperbole from either camp, so lets just consider a direct comparison between the two.

#1818 SparkPlug

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:08

I did - which is why I questioned your criteria... which seems a little scewed IMO towards one driver...

Its all very well to state one line and the run off into the distance. Please explain how the criteria is skewed towards either driver, giving a specific example ?

Bahrain affected Schumacher the same way that Germany affected Rosberg (i.e. both drivers performed poorly compared to their teammates anyway, so the gearbox failure was of little consequence)




#1819 Raelene

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:12

we are in different timezone s- so cut with the crap "run off"... I'm offline for the day - off to the movies.

but a quick one - first you say Bahrain - don't count - then you count.

read your reasons and again and you will see why I think the criteria is differnt - in the races I mentioned.

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#1820 SparkPlug

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:22

we are in different timezone s- so cut with the crap "run off"... I'm offline for the day - off to the movies.

but a quick one - first you say Bahrain - don't count - then you count.
read your reasons and again and you will see why I think the criteria is differnt - in the races I mentioned.

Where did I say Bahrain "dont count" ?? :confused:

As I said before, you need to read the posts before commenting.

EDIT : Ahh, Now i get it. I should have been more clear with Bahrain - my point was that gearbox failure would not have affected his end result. Maybe a change in terminology is apt.

Edited by SparkPlug, 08 October 2012 - 10:26.


#1821 Diablobb81

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:27

What part of Michael qualified 18th in Bahrein because he had a DRS issue don't you understand?

Edited by Diablobb81, 08 October 2012 - 10:28.


#1822 Raelene

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:31

As I said before, you need to read the posts before commenting.

EDIT : Ahh, Now i get it. I should have been more clear with Bahrain - my point was that gearbox failure would not have affected his end result. Maybe a change in terminology is apt.



what was that ;);) :0....as I SAID - I actually did read your posts... seems you don't!!

Logging off as it is movie time for me - not running away...

#1823 SparkPlug

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:32

What part of Michael qualified 18th in Bahrein because he had a DRS issue don't you understand?

Fair enough, was an oversight on my end.

In the most optimistic scenario for an MS fan, he is leading 5-4 this year.IMO we shouldnt be omitting Monaco at all as Rosberg or Mercedes is not responsible for MS's 5 place penalty. Lets leave it aside anyway.

Considering the number of point destroying mistakes Schumacher has made this year, compared to maybe 1 for Rosberg (qualifying in Australia, that too a very very minor mistake which maybe cost Rosberg 2-4 points), are you still honestly telling me Rosberg isnt, at the very bare minimum a match for Schumacher in 2012 ?

EDIT : And Canada, as gresbor pointed out. Another race which would've gone in Rosberg's favor regardless of the reliability issue.

Edited by SparkPlug, 08 October 2012 - 10:35.


#1824 schubacca

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:56

Not true. MS fans use to say MS "beat" Senna in 1994, even knowing Senna set ALL poles, and was ahead of MIchael in ALL 3 races before had a mech problem, was rammed by Mika or was overtaken by an illegal car.


If you look to old races as close as you watch Nico x MS races taking in consideration mech problems , oponents cars, etc, you will find out that there was no "hundredes od amzaing drives", no epic dices, and of course no blatantly inferior cars.

The worst car MS has ever driven in F1 is the same car Nico could get his first and only win. I really would like to see Alonso, Vettel or Ham in this Mercedes. Not to mention Senna (in this case, we would have to hear the Mercedes is the best car or second best).


MS can win races this year. He, IMO, can win next year if he continues. It all depends on how good his car, IF he can adapt to it and how good his teamate is (assuming MS doesn´t get number one status AGAIN)

The only thing i am 100% sure is IF MS wins races year you will say that this is a proof of his greatness (no matter HOW it happened).


Dont feed the troll

#1825 Number62

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 15:18

Rosberg - Schumacher



Italy :
Point to Schumacher. 4-5


Nico was faster at Monza after he got rid of his faulty Tyres which compromised his Q, start and first stint.


#1826 1Devil1

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 16:36

Nico was faster at Monza after he got rid of his faulty Tyres which compromised his Q, start and first stint.


I never heard of that. You don't know if Schumacher saved his tires. Michael drove in a higher position than this shitbox belonged. It doesn't make sense to push if you can't go any further. We have seen this often last year in Rosberg case


Schumacher was the better driver in Monza. Period

#1827 grebsor

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:23

I never heard of that. You don't know if Schumacher saved his tires. Michael drove in a higher position than this shitbox belonged. It doesn't make sense to push if you can't go any further. We have seen this often last year in Rosberg case


Schumacher was the better driver in Monza. Period


There was no point in saving tires as Merc had 2 stops strategy for both drivers, unlike the most of the drivers with 1 stop. They had to push as hard as they could to gain positions and they did so. Nico had 6 fastest laps in the race.

Maybe Schumacher was the better than Rosberg in Monza, but not faster.

Edited by grebsor, 10 October 2012 - 18:24.


#1828 Number62

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:38

I never heard of that. You don't know if Schumacher saved his tires. Michael drove in a higher position than this shitbox belonged. It doesn't make sense to push if you can't go any further. We have seen this often last year in Rosberg case


Schumacher was the better driver in Monza. Period


Michael was faster than Nico for 13 of the first 15 laps until Nico ditched his duff set of tyres.

After that Nico was faster for 28 of the remaining laps Including fastest race lap. Michael only 10.

Nico was faster in q1, faster in q2 and then slower in q3 when he acquired the dodgy set of pirellis.

So Nico was impeded by a faulty piece of equipment.

The weight of evidence is that Nico was better. Or at least it should be scrubbed like the other technical impediments. That's only fair.

#1829 1Devil1

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 19:05

Michael was faster than Nico for 13 of the first 15 laps until Nico ditched his duff set of tyres.

After that Nico was faster for 28 of the remaining laps Including fastest race lap. Michael only 10.

Nico was faster in q1, faster in q2 and then slower in q3 when he acquired the dodgy set of pirellis.

So Nico was impeded by a faulty piece of equipment.

The weight of evidence is that Nico was better. Or at least it should be scrubbed like the other technical impediments. That's only fair.


Sorry you didn't answer my question. Where did Rosberg say or the team something went wrong with his tires? He said he didn't find the right car balance. It is part of his job. If you look back the year before Michael said often he had troubles with the right balance or the tires but this did not count as excuse then, so why now? All I want is a source that proves he had a dodgy set of pirellis?. And I didn't have the grip doesn't count. We hear that all time out of the mouth of the drivers which fall behind their teammates

#1830 Paco

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 19:21

Seriously people??? When a team has unreliable car, it makes it very difficult to judge intra-team driver comparisons. Add the fact this stupid long life components that lead to penalties to a "Driver" qualifying vs. Taking points away after the race from the "constructors" championship as reliablity is a team and not driver issue but I digress and its nearly impossible to compare them. Then couple with a racing incident penalty affecting a driver the next race and you get where I'm going... MS sure at fault for a couple incidents but trying to compare his result the next race when he is compromised by a ruling that puts him down the order then using exotic stragey to attempt to move him up the grid ...really... You guys are going to try and compare 2 drivers like that. Seriously, in my opinion is insane and unobjective.

All that can really be said of 2012 is that MS improved significantly, Nico has been really lacj lustre for most of the season with the odd exception and Mercedes has been a huge let down.

Michael could have easily retained the seat over Nico based solely in 2012 performance but the decision of who is better isn't made solely on 2012 and is more about longer term growth of Mercedes and how long MS is prepared to commit to F1. Since he himself probably doesn't know... Left with no option but to keep dull Nico. But to say Nico or MS has been the better driver just plain nonsense. Only thing factual thing that can be said is the MGP003 was a let down to Mercedes, MS and too Nico.

#1831 Paco

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 19:29

And what else can said that its not either drivers fault that Mercedes are a mess and that all blame should rest on Brawn's shoulders and the technical team that he put together and develop the car and there inability to get tires to work.

On any given day, either driver can be ahead or behind, it has very little with the competance or ability of either driver and luck of the draw on whether they get the tires to sort of work and make a day of it. Hardly, an agrument to say driver 8 has been better over driver Y. At least, that how I've seen it in 2012.

#1832 Number62

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:26

Instead of the mudslinging match can someone here actually prove that "Schumacher has dominated Rosberg" on race days or "Rosberg has dominated Schumacher" on Sundays at all ?

In my opinion and reading of this year, the two drivers are very close, but Rosberg still has the slight edge as
1. He has made lesser mistakes. On the other hand, Schumacher has made some horrendous race ending mistakes this season. Lets not omit this when we compare the two drivers
2. On the subject of race pace, I'd actually like to see a nice, honest comparison between the two. I would estimate that the two are almost neck and neck on this one too, but because MS has made more mistakes and has lost a lot more points due to reliability, the picture looks skewed.

Rosberg still has been the better + more consistent Mercedes driver when we're talking race performances IMHO.


For what it's worth, of the laps they've shared the track (excluding Canada)

Nico faster for 313
Michael faster for 266

That nice McLarenF1 site wont let me do the Canada comparison.


#1833 Paco

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:59

Number of faster laps means nothing. If you were starting race in the back of the field with slower cars around ... Sure you're going to be slower for most of the race until you can get passed them and into a range of cars more of your speed. Add strategy differences of 1 stop vs. 2 and the extra fuel weight penalty and it makes the driver starting down the grid slower to boot.

That's the problem with modern F1... Drawing intra team comparisons hard for a situation like Mercedes the past 2 seasons, especially the past 12. Too many variables happen each weekend to draw any meaningful comparison other then the drivers aren't the problem and both are getting on with driving the car. For objective reasoning they are close together, with Michael a bit more speed but over the edge but Nico a bit more conservative and bringing it home more often in a respectable finishing place.

Edited by Paco, 11 October 2012 - 01:08.


#1834 Number62

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 07:10

Number of faster laps means nothing. If you were starting race in the back of the field with slower cars around ... Sure you're going to be slower for most of the race until you can get passed them and into a range of cars more of your speed. Add strategy differences of 1 stop vs. 2 and the extra fuel weight penalty and it makes the driver starting down the grid slower to boot.


Then given that Nico started a total of 43 places behind Michael and Michael only a total of 38 behind Nico, we'd expect Nico to be slower still. But he's not
.

#1835 Diablobb81

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:06

Better job by Nico but the car is shite.

#1836 exmayol

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:13

Both MS and NR did a good job but the later obviously did a 0.150s better one ;)

#1837 adam1312

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 19:25

rosberg won a race, enough said

#1838 Paco

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 19:38

Won a race during a period of lottery race winners. What an accomplishment.

#1839 1Devil1

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 21:28

rosberg won a race, enough said


Oh boy, watch the race again.

Edited by 1Devil1, 15 October 2012 - 21:33.


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#1840 Buttoneer

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 21:30

Posts deleted. Please argue the points not the poster.

#1841 aditya-now

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 03:18

Oh boy, watch the race again.


Nico won the race fair and square, what's more, he dominated the opposition. It's questionable if Michael would have managed to reel him in on that day. Anyway, Michael retired, Nico did not and won.

So I can't understand what's there to argue about the facts.


#1842 1Devil1

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:45

Nico won the race fair and square, what's more, he dominated the opposition. It's questionable if Michael would have managed to reel him in on that day. Anyway, Michael retired, Nico did not and won.

So I can't understand what's there to argue about the facts.


Nobody question the "fact" that Nico won that race. But to blame Michael because Nico won a race and he not is crazy. We had this discussion over and over again also with you..

#1843 schubacca

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 14:52

So are we saying that MS won Korea? :p



#1844 MightyMoose

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 15:48

So are we saying that MS won Korea? :p

Well if NR won Abu Dhabi 10, and MS won Monza 11... then yes.  ;)

#1845 Jejking

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 21:21

I think a facepalm is in place here. Man. Some people just do not give up eh?

#1846 Lamag

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 15:36

I hope Rosberg can at least finish this race. A shame what happened to him during the last couple of races.

#1847 Jejking

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 18:15

Yep, I hope the same. Btw, of course todays point goes to Rosberg. He was pretty much ahead all weekend long, up until the race. Let's see if that trend continues tomorrow.

#1848 Muz Bee

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 20:08

It comes don to this for some who are dug into the bunkers:

When Michael has problems it's wretched luck he is having (or conspiracy by the crew!).
When Nico has problems it's Michael gaining the ascendency - no mention of Nico's share of the luck.

For sure Michael had a lot of bad luck in the first third o the season but he did put himself in bad situations some of the time. Nico on the other hand kept his nose clean while all was exploding around him. If we look at the number of driver errors in races this year (or the last 3) there's little doubt Michael has been a little error prone.

Good luck to Nico (and Michael) today. Let's hope they can reverse the form slump and get some points. I would think Nico in top 6 would be a good result to be honest.

#1849 Lamag

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:28

At least Rosberg finished the race. This car is the biggest dog on Mercedes history.

#1850 Schumacher7

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:49

It's quite funny really, if the drivers under perform in qualifying and then have issues in the race they score no points, if the drivers qualify well and then drive the car to the maximum staying clear of trouble, they still score no points.