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Rosberg v. Schumacher, 2012


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#151 apoka

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 16:15

Ross Brawn doesn't throw compliments like that about without meaning it.

Agreed. For that reason I hope - year after year - that Rosberg will finally get a WDC capable car. We still don't know whether he is just very good or skill-wise amongst the greatest F1 drivers. (You surely cannot put him on that level unless he wins races and fights for WDCs.)


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#152 Kubiccia

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 16:17

Schumacher has never really been that good a qualifier. Barrichello used to beat him often.

But quali isn't the definitive factor: remember points aren't awarded for putting a car on pole. Sure it puts you in a good position for the race win; but if your race pace is inconsistent then qualifying on pole is useless.

ouch

what's next, Berger often beaten Senna in qualifying? Massa often beaten Alonso?.....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is somewhat curious in this is that Schumacher bashers only cherry picked what they wanted from the article. How about this part:

"If Michael were feathering the throttle in fast corners and not confident about his ability to deal with it, you'd say, well, clearly, you can see it's slipping away from him. But you don't see that – in fact often he's the same or even quicker in the fast corners. Nico just seems to have more of an intuitive ability to get the most out of the tyres on one lap.
"In the races, where it's a more consistent process, there's nothing to tell between the two of them. There are some races where Nico's dominant and some where Michael's very strong. I don't know if he will find the difference in qualifying, because Nico is very special in those circumstances, one of the best I've seen. At the moment Michael hasn't understood how he can get that."
"We still had grooved tyres, and there was a tyre war going on between Bridgestone and Michelin," Brawn says. "We were the main Bridgestone customer and the tyres had been developed with a large input from Michael, so naturally they suited his style and approach. Now there's only one tyre out there, it's the same for everybody, and he's got to work out how he's going to get that performance from it," Brawn continued. "There's no testing, or very little, so you can't go out there with 10 sets of tyres and say, right, I'm going to do one lap on each set and work out how to squeeze out that last little drop.
Perhaps the tyres have evolved in a way that suits some drivers more than others. Nico is quite exceptional in that respect, and he's a great asset to the team. I think when he wins a race, you'll see another step in his performance."


So it's a combination of things?! Little bit of age, Nico is quite good according to Ross and now Schumi hasn't understood how to get the most out of the tires since his comeback. Still, he's said by Ross to be often faster than Nico on fast corners, so I don't see how a young Schumacher, capable of extracting the most out of any tire(as he used to do before war tire began in F1) wouldn't wipe the floor of Rosberg in qualifyings.

I think Brawn comments quite explain the rate of 7/19 I posted before. On 7 qualifyings per year, Schumacher might have some kind of fluke to extract more from the tires than he uses to.

Edited by Kubiccia, 11 March 2012 - 16:38.


#153 Boing 2

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 16:22

Well it didn't work against him, that's for sure. But Micheline did the same for the other teams, so it was still equal opportunity.
It's not about the advantage, it's about the tires he excells in.


http://www.guardian....cedes-interview

Brawn says. "We were the main Bridgestone customer and the tyres had been developed with a large input from Michael, so naturally they suited his style and approach


I don't think any single Michelin driver was able to tailor their tyres the way Michael did, for a start they covered a lot of top teams and no one team was clearly dominant, it would have been impossible for michelin to pick which driver to go with at the seasons start.

#154 Cult

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 16:23

Schumacher has never really been that good a qualifier. Barrichello used to beat him often.

But quali isn't the definitive factor: remember points aren't awarded for putting a car on pole. Sure it puts you in a good position for the race win; but if your race pace is inconsistent then qualifying on pole is useless.


Schumacher has always been a fantastic qualifier, better in the race though and even better in the rain.

Before Barrichello: 119-9 (93%)
Barrichello: 79-25 (76%)
Massa: 13-4 (76%)

Considering Schumacher dominated Barrichello and Barrichello beat every single one of his other teammates (all 14 of them) apart from Irvine (another Schumacher teammate) and you see how strong the great man was.

Rosberg could be a true great in terms of qualifying, not so sure yet though.

Edited by Cult, 11 March 2012 - 16:26.


#155 ivand911

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 16:33

http://www.guardian....cedes-interview



I don't think any single Michelin driver was able to tailor their tyres the way Michael did, for a start they covered a lot of top teams and no one team was clearly dominant, it would have been impossible for michelin to pick which driver to go with at the seasons start.

Lets put it that way, in 2005 Michael would have preferred to use Michelin tyres that was not tailored to him than Bridgestones that was tailored to him. You get it? Tailored tyres are not necessary the better tyres.

Edited by ivand911, 11 March 2012 - 16:34.


#156 olliek88

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 16:51

Lets put it that way, in 2005 Michael would have preferred to use Michelin tyres that was not tailored to him than Bridgestones that was tailored to him. You get it? Tailored tyres are not necessary the better tyres.


Except that bar 2005 the Bridgestones were, generally, the better tyres, aswell as being designed to suit MS.

#157 hammibal

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 16:53

When Schumacher left in 2006 he had tailor made tires which suite his driving style, he needs a strong front-end to get the optimum.
In 2010 there were smaller front tires, in 2011 and probably 2012 the tires go off to fast. I think if it wasn't for those you would see a different picture.
On the other hand circumstances are the same for everybody, so he just needs to adapt if he want's to improve quali.



Well it didn't work against him, that's for sure. But Micheline did the same for the other teams, so it was still equal opportunity.
It's not about the advantage, it's about the tires he excells in.

Well this is basically what i'm getting at Schumacher mark1 had tyres tailored for him more then any other driver so he clearly had an advantage, nowadays its much more a level playing field regarding tyres

Schumacher has never really been that good a qualifier. Barrichello used to beat him often.

But quali isn't the definitive factor: remember points aren't awarded for putting a car on pole. Sure it puts you in a good position for the race win; but if your race pace is inconsistent then qualifying on pole is useless.

Schumacher was actually one of the best ever qualifiers in F1

Schumacher has always been a fantastic qualifier, better in the race though and even better in the rain.

Before Barrichello: 119-9 (93%)
Barrichello: 79-25 (76%)
Massa: 13-4 (76%)

Considering Schumacher dominated Barrichello and Barrichello beat every single one of his other teammates (all 14 of them) apart from Irvine (another Schumacher teammate) and you see how strong the great man was.

Rosberg could be a true great in terms of qualifying, not so sure yet though.

I think even then these figures dont do him justice because of some obscure qualifying rules we've had in the past which includes race fuel qualifiying, Wurz commented when he was teamed up with Rosberg that he was the best qualifier he'd seen

Lets put it that way, in 2005 Michael would have preferred to use Michelin tyres that was not tailored to him than Bridgestones that was tailored to him. You get it? Tailored tyres are not necessary the better tyres.

Bridgestone built a bad tyre that year, nothing to do with tailored tyres

#158 ivand911

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 17:17

I say lets wait one week and focus on 2012.

#159 travbrad

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 17:19

Rosberg could be a true great in terms of qualifying, not so sure yet though.


I remember his Monaco qualifying lap a couple years ago was one of the best quali laps I've seen in awhile (wish I could find a video of it)

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#160 Szoelloe

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 17:35

I remember his Monaco qualifying lap a couple years ago was one of the best quali laps I've seen in awhile (wish I could find a video of it)


these are quite ok IMHO. :)



#161 Mastah

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 17:44

Agreed. For that reason I hope - year after year - that Rosberg will finally get a WDC capable car. We still don't know whether he is just very good or skill-wise amongst the greatest F1 drivers. (You surely cannot put him on that level unless he wins races and fights for WDCs.)


Well, Brawn said he is fantastic qualifier (which I partly agree with), not racer. Sure, if he will get dominant car I guess he can win championship or races, but in equal cars with Fernando, Lewis or Seb on the grid, he doesn't have a chance over full season.




So it's a combination of things?! Little bit of age


He isn't affected by his age in fast corners, which require fast reaction times, so in what aspect his age is disadvantage? Fitness?

#162 Mastah

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 17:45

Well this is basically what i'm getting at Schumacher mark1 had tyres tailored for him more then any other driver so he clearly had an advantage, nowadays its much more a level playing field regarding tyres


Exactly. "Now there's only one tyre out there, it's the same for everybody" - and guess who is struggling, when now it's the same for everybody, not some tailor-made for only one driver?



I say lets wait one week and focus on 2012.


Or alternatively you can answer question in my previous post, but I understand if you don't want to. After all it's difficult to say "I was wrong with my fancy theories".


#163 zyphro

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 19:39

Schumacher has always been a fantastic qualifier, better in the race though and even better in the rain.

Before Barrichello: 119-9 (93%)
Barrichello: 79-25 (76%)
Massa: 13-4 (76%)

Considering Schumacher dominated Barrichello and Barrichello beat every single one of his other teammates (all 14 of them) apart from Irvine (another Schumacher teammate) and you see how strong the great man was.

Rosberg could be a true great in terms of qualifying, not so sure yet though.


Why are you reacting like I said Schumacher got beaten by Barrichello frequently?

My point is: Schumacher has always been a better driver in the race than compared to quali.

He is ALOT better in race than quali.

Is this difficult to understand?

#164 Kubiccia

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 20:19

Except that bar 2005 the Bridgestones were, generally, the better tyres, aswell as being designed to suit MS.

Bridgestones were often better than Michelins for most part of the race in 2000's but Michelin's were better for qualifying IIRC what was said back then.

I remember his Monaco qualifying lap a couple years ago was one of the best quali laps I've seen in awhile (wish I could find a video of it)

certainly not 2006.


He isn't affected by his age in fast corners, which require fast reaction times, so in what aspect his age is disadvantage? Fitness?

Who says he isn't affected in fast corners? He might be but that would suggest he, on his prime, would be even faster and the gap to Nico on that corners would be even bigger. The fact, Ross exposed, about Schumacher often being equal or faster than Nico on high speed corners doesn't mean he didn't lost some speed. It's plausible that he could go even faster before.

My point is: Schumacher has always been a better driver in the race than compared to quali.

He is ALOT better in race than quali.

Is this difficult to understand?

Today he is a lot better in race than on quali but I don't agree about prime Schumacher. In 93, Senna had a single pole in the last qualifying when everthing was already decided, still he had 5 wins. You can have better results in races than on qualifyings, but that doesn't mean it's because you're better in races than on Saturday's sessions.

Hamilton have his qualifying hyped a lot, still, he got way more wins than poles in last 3 years.

PS: It's curious to read about the "tailored tires" stuff because, for big part of his career, Schumacher didn't have custom tires for him.

Edited by Kubiccia, 11 March 2012 - 20:21.


#165 emburmak

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 23:06

I also believe that Schumacher can still do it. Sure, he may have lost some speed compared to his first carriere, but he is still one of the best racers of the field. The tires, EBD and maybe age are hurting his one lap speed most, because of his different driving style compared to most of the other drivers. If the rules allow him to drive the car the way he likes he will be fast.(er than Rosberg)


+1 :up: :up: :up:

#166 Mastah

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 06:40

Who says he isn't affected in fast corners? He might be but that would suggest he, on his prime, would be even faster and the gap to Nico on that corners would be even bigger. The fact, Ross exposed, about Schumacher often being equal or faster than Nico on high speed corners doesn't mean he didn't lost some speed. It's plausible that he could go even faster before.


Ross Brawn says that:

Speaking before his departure for Melbourne, where the season opens with next weekend's Australian Grand Prix, Brawn brushes aside the suggestion that Schumacher might have lost his edge. It is not, he said, a matter of something as simple as the courage and self-belief required to take a 180mph bend flat out in seventh gear.

"If Michael were feathering the throttle in fast corners and not confident about his ability to deal with it, you'd say, well, clearly, you can see it's slipping away from him. But you don't see that – in fact often he's the same or even quicker in the fast corners. Nico just seems to have more of an intuitive ability to get the most out of the tyres on one lap.


He doesn't say he's quicker in fast corners than Nico. He says Schumi is the same or even quicker than he was before retirement. Brawn mentions Nico in the context of losing out in quali trim.

#167 ivand911

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 07:39

I have some time to answer Mastah now.
First, when he say "I am genetically superior." , I think he mean monkeys. :rotfl:
Second, with the long post 142, every quote of mine was right, because he can't prove otherwise. He don't have data to back his words.
I am sure that both drivers have different set ups(this mean different car) - this mean at least one setting(from 10000 settings), hardware(brake disk, brake pads, springs) on the cars were different.
I clearly remember Ross saying in one race that MS car was more set up for race ,where Nico car was more set up for Q. And this is not surprise - we have cases where MS did't run at all in Q3 even when he get there. So, what is the point to have compromised set up ,if he know than he will not run in Q3????
Nico then run in Q3, so he most likely have compromised set up to have better Q3 result. So, I prove they run different strategy. Monza, also different Q strategy , but reversed.

Ross also said that(when answering about 0,3sec difference between the drivers):
""Maybe he doesn't," comes the surprising answer from Brawn, who knows more than anyone in the Formula One paddock about Schumacher the competitor. "Maybe he lives with it and uses his experience and knowledge to compensate." BINGO!

Also if he think that raw difference between them is 0,3 sec, so then in the cases when MS was 1 sec slower this have to be attributed to the car differences, set up and tyres management. As me said.
About tyre management even babies(that are not superior to the monkeys) back then know that when you push more you finish tyres quickly. Also when you not push them hard, you save them. As me said.

Edited by ivand911, 12 March 2012 - 07:43.


#168 MCh000

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 09:03

I'm not into debate Schumacher vs Rosberg, but Ross indeed said that from one point Michael decided to set up his car more towards the race compromising qualifying (speed over one lap with low fuel level) while Rosberg did otherwise. That is way Michael started to look better in races than Rosberg.

#169 Raelene

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 09:05

I'm not into debate Schumacher vs Rosberg, but Ross indeed said that from one point Michael decided to set up his car more towards the race compromising qualifying (speed over one lap with low fuel level) while Rosberg did otherwise. That is way Michael started to look better in races than Rosberg.


most of us know he said that - but you will never convince Mastah..

Edited by Raelene, 12 March 2012 - 09:06.


#170 sharo

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 09:18

most of us know he said that - but you will never convince Mastah..

I feel no need to convince anyone, especially Mastah :)

#171 Raelene

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 09:22

I feel no need to convince anyone, especially Mastah :)


Ithink that's the right attitude... :)

#172 LiJu914

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 12:03

Well this is basically what i'm getting at Schumacher mark1 had tyres tailored for him more then any other driver so he clearly had an advantage, nowadays its much more a level playing field regarding tyres


I don´t completely agree with that. The story of the close Ferrari/Bridgestone-connection began during the 2001-season. But MSC already got 3 WDCs and dominated his teammates even more, when there was no such special cooperation (except 98 with Goodyear arguably) - paradoxically the gap to Rubens even shrunk a little bit when MSC had his "tailor-made" tyres between 2002-2005.

Edited by LiJu914, 12 March 2012 - 12:08.


#173 holiday

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 12:55

Even though I am a huge Michael Fan I think Rosberg will be farther ahead than he was in 2011.The cars seem so close that qualifying will matter even more and more often than not,Schumi will have a few cars between him and Rosberg.


That's what I expect too. :well: Hopefully, MS proves us wrong though.

Ithink that's the right attitude... smile.gif


Almost. The perfect attitude would be if you all would put the filibuster on the ignore list.

#174 schubacca

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 13:42

MS in his 40s has nothing to prove in F1.

NR has everything to prove.


I say that rating NR very well. He is fast, intelligent, and measured in his driving. That said, the idea that NR in his twenties defeating MS in his 40s constitutes a supposed myth being shattered in bunk.

MS finally got beaten by a teammate.......... after 20 years.....!

If that is mindblowing, then I wonder what people think of JB beating LH?

#175 schubacca

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 13:46

I don´t completely agree with that. The story of the close Ferrari/Bridgestone-connection began during the 2001-season. But MSC already got 3 WDCs and dominated his teammates even more, when there was no such special cooperation (except 98 with Goodyear arguably) - paradoxically the gap to Rubens even shrunk a little bit when MSC had his "tailor-made" tyres between 2002-2005.


Yep, those that watch F1 for a while know the stories....

Once the MS-bashers were saying that Bridgestone were spraying MS's tyres with something special.....

Whatever the stories, it is clear that anyone would marshal all the resources at his disposal to the max.

FA and many others have no problem with that philosophy. MS being successful at Ferrari after some dry years seems to upset certain people.

#176 cheapracer

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 13:59

Once the MS-bashers were saying that Bridgestone were spraying MS's tyres with something special.....


Doesn't matter if they did, point is that they, along with Ferrari and Co. thought MS was worth paying the attention to, that's the point.

With the rules in place now, no one can have this option so it will suit some drivers more than others - I consider that as unfair as some consider it unfair the old way.

One thing is certain, you only see some of the best drivers up front with restricted options which is unfair to everyone - driver to fan alike.


#177 schubacca

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 14:38

Doesn't matter if they did, point is that they, along with Ferrari and Co. thought MS was worth paying the attention to, that's the point.

With the rules in place now, no one can have this option so it will suit some drivers more than others - I consider that as unfair as some consider it unfair the old way.

One thing is certain, you only see some of the best drivers up front with restricted options which is unfair to everyone - driver to fan alike.


I like the old F1 myself also.

No common ECUs

No single tyre supplier

No cars that all look the same....

F1 needs to be careful that it does not turn into a spec series....

If a certain driver likes a certain type of tyre, then good for him if he can get it.


#178 jj2728

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 15:20

I like the old F1 myself also.

No common ECUs

No single tyre supplier

No cars that all look the same....


You must be talking about the 1960s or 1970s........

Edited by jj2728, 12 March 2012 - 15:20.


#179 hammibal

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 18:29

I don´t completely agree with that. The story of the close Ferrari/Bridgestone-connection began during the 2001-season. But MSC already got 3 WDCs and dominated his teammates even more, when there was no such special cooperation (except 98 with Goodyear arguably) - paradoxically the gap to Rubens even shrunk a little bit when MSC had his "tailor-made" tyres between 2002-2005.

Yes i know all that, maybe towards the end Schumacher was beginning to lose his edge which would explain a bit why he no longer has that something extra he once had, you dont expect him to win in an inferior car anymore

Doesn't matter if they did, point is that they, along with Ferrari and Co. thought MS was worth paying the attention to, that's the point.

With the rules in place now, no one can have this option so it will suit some drivers more than others - I consider that as unfair as some consider it unfair the old way.

One thing is certain, you only see some of the best drivers up front with restricted options which is unfair to everyone - driver to fan alike.

It sort of reads that its unfair that Schumacher no longer has these sort of advantages and a level playing field regarding tyres is a bad thing

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#180 Poep

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 18:37

MS in his 40s has nothing to prove in F1.

NR has everything to prove.


I say that rating NR very well. He is fast, intelligent, and measured in his driving. That said, the idea that NR in his twenties defeating MS in his 40s constitutes a supposed myth being shattered in bunk.

MS finally got beaten by a teammate.......... after 20 years.....!

If that is mindblowing, then I wonder what people think of JB beating LH?

Amen to that.
The best post ever on this discussing since the beginning in 2010. :up:

#181 zyphro

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 18:43

MS in his 40s has nothing to prove in F1.

NR has everything to prove.


I say that rating NR very well. He is fast, intelligent, and measured in his driving. That said, the idea that NR in his twenties defeating MS in his 40s constitutes a supposed myth being shattered in bunk.

MS finally got beaten by a teammate.......... after 20 years.....!

If that is mindblowing, then I wonder what people think of JB beating LH?


This.

The shameful hypocrisy is amazing (bold).


#182 zyphro

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 18:44

Today he is a lot better in race than on quali but I don't agree about prime Schumacher. In 93, Senna had a single pole in the last qualifying when everthing was already decided, still he had 5 wins. You can have better results in races than on qualifyings, but that doesn't mean it's because you're better in races than on Saturday's sessions.


I'm referring to his latter years than his early career.

#183 ivand911

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 19:07

Yes i know all that, maybe towards the end Schumacher was beginning to lose his edge which would explain a bit why he no longer has that something extra he once had, you dont expect him to win in an inferior car anymore

He did well in Canada, but he was powerless against DRS. Without DRS he have secured second place. With some luck - win.


#184 davissi

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 19:11

I'm referring to his latter years than his early career.

Funny how people read into things whichever way they want to isn't it, the qualifying conditions for most of the races Senna won were dry compared to the wet race the next day. Monaco he only won because Schumacher's engine blew and by Japan the car was much improved with the same engine also.

#185 ivand911

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 20:31

I hope this year will be the time when MGP will have good car and when will be important for MS to outscore Nico:
http://www.totalf1.c...important__yet/
Article is from last year(25/10/11).

#186 zyphro

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 22:16

I hope this year will be the time when MGP will have good car and when will be important for MS to outscore Nico:
http://www.totalf1.c...important__yet/
Article is from last year(25/10/11).


Like Schumacher said: I don't care about outscoring.

I want us to be regular podium challengers/ challenging for wins.

Only then I care about who is outscoring.



#187 Kubiccia

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 23:48

Ross Brawn says that:
He doesn't say he's quicker in fast corners than Nico. He says Schumi is the same or even quicker than he was before retirement. Brawn mentions Nico in the context of losing out in quali trim.


I think only you in the whole planet could "interpret" it that way. :down:

The whole context of what he's saying is about MSCXROS. It's obvious the comparison in fast corners is between 42 years old Schumacher and his team mate. Just use some logic, how would Ross be able to measure that Schumacher is even faster now than prime Schumacher was in fast corners?? How would he know what prime Schumacher would be able to do in such a corner when everything is different?

You can't even compare somebody telemetry from morning and afternoon in a testing session with exact same cars/tires because the conditions(rubber on track, temperature.....) change considerably.

When Schumacher drove in a certain corner for a qualifying session in 2006, it had a different temperatures, track grip, very different grooved tires from "tire war" era which had special compounds, the cars are completely different and so on.

THere is just NO WAY to compare any driver now and his old self to know, ACCURATELLY, who is faster. That's why the discussion, of how much 42 years old Schumacher is slower than on his prime, is endless.

The only logical comparison Ross can be making is regarding 42 years old Schumacher and Nico Rosberg because they drive the same spec car, with same tires, on roughly same conditions.

The only possible thing Ross Brawn was claiming, was that Schumacher is "often the same or even faster", than Nico, on fast corners.

But I know why you read it the other way. Everybody, Mastah, wants to claim now that nowadays Schumacher is often the same or even faster than prime Schumacher, so prime Schumacher would be beaten by an even bigger margin.



Edited by Kubiccia, 12 March 2012 - 23:51.


#188 malibu

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 00:30

difficult to judge the right level of the actual schumi. I'd say he is not too far from the "prime" schumi

For me Rosberg is probably the best driver right now. i rate him at least as good as hamilton, vettel or alonso.
Berger says : "he is a killer, but his big advantage is that he doesn't look like a killer"


You don't often see a driver as consistent, quick and precise as Rosberg.
If Rosberg maintains the level he shown those last two seasons, it will be impossible for schumi.

Edited by malibu, 13 March 2012 - 22:47.


#189 Igorr

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 00:57

Well not true, because if Schumi maintains the level he has shown last season and dont get the DNFs it will be impossible for Rosberg and thats a fact. Have a look at the results for yourself..


#190 Jejking

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 01:04

I say it won't be impossible for the both of them to teach each other a lesson. Nico has the youth and speed, Michael the experience and agression. The first has more opportunity to reach the objective to lead the team in the standings due to his youth but I wouldn't like to count out Schumacher simply because he was but is still one of the meanest *read: toughest* opponents to crack on track in f.e. direct combat. And he still knows how to set up a car, if he can outdrive Nico in India it just shows they aren't very far apart.

#191 marchi-91

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 01:16

I like that people argue Schumacher had tailor made tyres.

When you put all the cards on the table, especially the fact that it was generally the rest of the top 14 running Michelins, it proves that Michaels and Ferrari's feedback even with limited amount of data 'in comparison to the Michelin shod cars' still whooped their arse.

It only ever came unstuck when there was a massive change in regulations and that existing tyre data became obsolete, they were brought unstuck. Even then he managed to beat 2 drivers in the best cars with the best tyres on the grid and claim third in the title. Thats just how much better he was than any other driver in the competition.

#192 hammibal

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 01:30

He did well in Canada, but he was powerless against DRS. Without DRS he have secured second place. With some luck - win.

It wasnt a normal race though, wet/dry, SC's etc., even Nelson Piquet Jnr nearly won a race, i guess luck means even more of the top drivers crashing out, he doesnt have that bit extra in the tank anymore that can transcend an inferior car

#193 hammibal

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 01:36

Well not true, because if Schumi maintains the level he has shown last season and dont get the DNFs it will be impossible for Rosberg and thats a fact. Have a look at the results for yourself..

A lot of the DNF's are caused by the poor qualifying though

#194 zyphro

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 01:40

It wasnt a normal race though, wet/dry, SC's etc., even Nelson Piquet Jnr nearly won a race, i guess luck means even more of the top drivers crashing out, he doesnt have that bit extra in the tank anymore that can transcend an inferior car


Although the race wasn't a normal one (dry conditions) you cannot take anything away from Schumachers performance.

His racecraft was there, in all it's glory.

#195 zyphro

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 01:42

A lot of the DNF's are caused by the poor qualifying though


They are.

But Schumacher's excellent starts negate this disadvantage (for the most part).

Clearly it would be better to qualify much higher up the order but; the car he had last season wasn't really going to help him do that.

If the car is more competitive: and Schumacher doesn't up his hand in quali, then it would be more of a concern.

Edited by zyphro, 13 March 2012 - 01:44.


#196 hammibal

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 01:52

Although the race wasn't a normal one (dry conditions) you cannot take anything away from Schumachers performance.

His racecraft was there, in all it's glory.

But ultimately he could do nothing about the faster cars

They are.

But Schumacher's excellent starts negate this disadvantage (for the most part).

Clearly it would be better to qualify much higher up the order but; the car he had last season wasn't really going to help him do that.

If the car is more competitive: and Schumacher does up his hand in quali it would be more of a concern.

Admittedly he often negated his poor qualifying with good starts and racecraft, but he also got into a few scrapes, the two go hand in hand and meant he finished behind Rosberg in the WDC. The car was a limiting factor but he often didnt qualify for Q3, the car was good enough for Q3 so he often underperformed in qualifying, if the cars are closer this year qualifying could be a big problem for Schumacher

Edited by hammibal, 13 March 2012 - 01:54.


#197 zyphro

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 02:45

But ultimately he could do nothing about the faster cars


Admittedly he often negated his poor qualifying with good starts and racecraft, but he also got into a few scrapes, the two go hand in hand and meant he finished behind Rosberg in the WDC. The car was a limiting factor but he often didnt qualify for Q3, the car was good enough for Q3 so he often underperformed in qualifying, if the cars are closer this year qualifying could be a big problem for Schumacher


He could until the dry tyres and DRS came into play.

Yeah I don't disagree with you. Which is precisely why I say if Mercedes move up the order, Schumacher will have to raise his game with regards to quali.

I'm positive with the reg changes he can do this.

#198 ivand911

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 07:22

But ultimately he could do nothing about the faster cars

Yeah, he did in Monza. Remember. He was doing well in Canada too before DRS(which they allowed too early).

I don't know which MGP driver will like 2012 changes more. Who they will suit more. Until now(2010,2011) Nico adopted it quicker. MS also show the right signs last year. W01 was not build for them(Button). W02 was much better in this regard. Pirelli tyres was stronger comparing to the weak front Bridgestone tyres. This year they made rear tyres more stronger, but not the fronts(which MS prefer I think). Will banning of EBD help MS, is the next big question. He will have more freedom in his driving. His opinion about new tyres was good. We will have to wait and see.

Edited by ivand911, 13 March 2012 - 07:23.


#199 Konsta

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 07:31

Although the race wasn't a normal one (dry conditions) you cannot take anything away from Schumachers performance.

His racecraft was there, in all it's glory.


I have to disagree. Even though there were glimpses of brilliance here and there, the biggest surprise for me was MS´s lack of being able to cope not having the fastest car and having to fight for positions. In the last two seasons he probably crashed more often than in the previous 15 seasons.

I do not think that MS will be a better racer this season - most likely the difference between him and Nico will be bigger. I will stand corrected if needed but that is the way I expect the season to unfold.

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#200 cheapracer

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 07:36

You must be talking about the 1960s or 1970s........


I am talking of recent enough times where a driver could test at least long enough to get a car to his liking and setups to suit his style, now it's off the computer simulator and the pot luck that goes with it - once again fans being jammed with pineapples to suit the manufacturers.

WTF is this crap that a driver who may be a bit slow over a single lap but is easier on tyres can't go for an endurance run and vice versa for a fast driver with soft tyres like it used to be even with Pirelli supplying ... also some of the rear grid teams actually got to lead on occasion.

It used to be great seeing drivers able to show their areas of strength to get results and the fans guessing if a driver was coming in or staying out on hards and when he was out front it was so exciting that the faster guy on softs was 10 seconds behind catching a second per lap with 10 laps to go ....

F1 is a bit broken.