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Rosberg v. Schumacher, 2012


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#1951 BetaVersion

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 21:36

So you admit it's a high speed corner and taken flat out, but at the same time you think it was an easy avoidable accident. Don't you think this is a contradiction? Because, my opinion is that at a high speed you have less time to react, right?
Strange way of seeing, to say the least.


Narain was quite far from him and there was plenty of space to go. Despite the high speed on that place, I still think other factor made it easily avoidable  ;)

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#1952 Jejking

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 21:42

Narain was quite far from him and there was plenty of space to go. Despite the high speed on that place, I still think other factor made it easily avoidable ;)

There wasn't. Well, maybe there was enough room for Rosberg to go had Karthikeyan not BRAKED. You know how snappy those brakes are, in 70 meters from 330 to 80 etc? It was an incident, had he not braked Rosberg would have had a chance. Narain had a problem, it happens. Heat of the moment.

#1953 BetaVersion

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 22:37

There wasn't. Well, maybe there was enough room for Rosberg to go had Karthikeyan not BRAKED. You know how snappy those brakes are, in 70 meters from 330 to 80 etc? It was an incident, had he not braked Rosberg would have had a chance. Narain had a problem, it happens. Heat of the moment.


I have seen the footage and that was more than enough for me to have an opinion about it. IMHO, Rosberg had way enough time to avoid it and that's it.

In Schumacher's accidents, the others also were braking. Both Mercedes guys just were distracted, again imo.

#1954 Jejking

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 22:52

I have seen the footage and that was more than enough for me to have an opinion about it. IMHO, Rosberg had way enough time to avoid it and that's it.

In Schumacher's accidents, the others also were braking. Both Mercedes guys just were distracted, again imo.

I have seen that as well. In the corner before the crash, they were less than a car length apart, that's my guess. That stretched up a bit, right in front of the critical corner Rosberg lifts slightly, NK goes through it, distance 1.5 car lengths which means about 7 meters. Speed in that corner, 220? Let's say 200 to be safe. That means about 55 m a second, which translates into crossing that distance in 0.15 seconds. Despite Karthikeyan not standing still but braking, we can add an extra tenth or two to close up the gap. But still he was on the racing line. Nico never had a chance there really.

Edited by Jejking, 08 November 2012 - 22:53.


#1955 grebsor

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:15

I have seen the footage and that was more than enough for me to have an opinion about it. IMHO, Rosberg had way enough time to avoid it and that's it.

You have seen it in slow motion replay, that's why you think Nico had time to avoid that crash.
Don't remember the accident was shown in real time.

Edited by grebsor, 09 November 2012 - 08:16.


#1956 Jejking

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:07

Jep, that's a good point which proves my point as well (and to be honest: it's also one of the reasons why I hate the directors, they have a nasty tendency to slow the audio and footage at critical points).

#1957 baddog

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:56

I would just like to point out that they are not in a corner at all when he hits him.. given how extremely slow the HRT was going through the corner before what was Nico doing not going right to pass him on the short straight anyway?

Posted Image

That is a couple of seconds before he hit him.

Sorry, bad error of judgement by Nico.

#1958 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:14

What happened there? What happened there? :confused:


Time to retire for Nico?

Or wear glasses?

Or have a walking stick?

Maybe he is too old?


Where is the army of trolls?

#1959 Number62

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:15

I would just like to point out that they are not in a corner at all when he hits him.. given how extremely slow the HRT was going through the corner before what was Nico doing not going right to pass him on the short straight anyway?

Posted Image

That is a couple of seconds before he hit him.

Sorry, bad error of judgement by Nico.


Nico says unavoidable
Narain says unavoidable
Ant Davidson says unavoidable

Any expert opinions running counter to those?

Edited by Number62, 09 November 2012 - 11:33.


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#1960 spacekid

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 13:56

Sorry guys but I can't see how any blame can be put on Nico for this shunt at all. For me it was the definition of a racing incident.

#1961 RedBaron

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 14:19

It was a racing incident. However if it was Schumacher who had ploughed into the back of the HRT the reaction and possibly a penalty would be different.

#1962 Jejking

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 15:13

I would just like to point out that they are not in a corner at all when he hits him.. given how extremely slow the HRT was going through the corner before what was Nico doing not going right to pass him on the short straight anyway?

Posted Image

That is a couple of seconds before he hit him.

Sorry, bad error of judgement by Nico.

A couple of SECONDS? It's right after the 'turn' (not the most exciting turn of all but ok). I don't think Nico is the one who needs glasses, I think it's you.

#1963 baddog

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 20:46

Okay about a second before impact. If Nico even stayed where he was instead of going further left he would not have hit the HRT, which I will remind you was half way off the track to the left when they crashed.

#1964 BetaVersion

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 22:09

I have seen that as well. In the corner before the crash, they were less than a car length apart, that's my guess. That stretched up a bit, right in front of the critical corner Rosberg lifts slightly, NK goes through it, distance 1.5 car lengths which means about 7 meters. Speed in that corner, 220? Let's say 200 to be safe. That means about 55 m a second, which translates into crossing that distance in 0.15 seconds. Despite Karthikeyan not standing still but braking, we can add an extra tenth or two to close up the gap. But still he was on the racing line. Nico never had a chance there really.


no

Your estimations are about correct to me. The 7 meters and the 200kph(race pace with heavy fuel as this was at the begining of the race) and everything seems perfect untill the bold part.

This is a HRT slowing down(was NK fulling braking, ie, braking as much as the car could as in a qualifying lap??? I doubt, imo he was rather "slowing down" rather than braking as it would be totally non-sensical to do brake 100% there) and it wasn't by much, as far as the eye can spot, and even if he was fulling braking, HRT have very low downforce, he was on quite used tires, with a lot of fuel onboard and "only" at 200kph. The G-force in braking grows with square of speed due to downforce growing like that.

With all this accounted, I highly doubt NK was diminishing at more than 1,5/2 Gs which would decelerate the car way less than most people are assuming on this case.

But instead of making guessings and etc, I counted the time it took in the "real time replay"

From this frame(1) onwards, NK starts to slow down as both keeps getting closer to each other as can be seen on frame(2):
Posted Image

Posted Image

From frame(1) untill frame(4), the frame just before the collision, it took around 0,85s

Posted Image

Or even pushing in favour of Rosberg, if you wanna choose another place to start the countdown, from frame(3) to frame(4), it took around 0,5s
Posted Image


Even "pushing" in favour of Nico, it took way more than your guess and that's because of the "braking thing" I pointed out earlier

At the very least, Nico had half second to deviate. It would just need a slight steering movement to either go to the tarmac run off or to the inside.

Kimi had even less time to avoid Lewis(after his puncture) in Germany and still reacted quicky enough


You have seen it in slow motion replay, that's why you think Nico had time to avoid that crash.
Don't remember the accident was shown in real time.


It was shown both in slow-mo, obviously, and in real time

Edited by BetaVersion, 09 November 2012 - 22:17.


#1965 Jejking

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 00:00

You know that F1 cars, when not on the accelerator, do deaccelerate more than a normal street car would do on maximum brakes? I still think the gap was too small to overcome without problems. But let's say it wasn't, how fair is it to expect to need to jump out of the way because the car you were going to lap could possibly break right in front of your eyes, in the middle of a fast righthanding section? I highly doubt even Karthikeyan was expecting that.

#1966 Schumacher7

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 20:21

Why exactly did Karthikeyan slow down knowing he was on the racing line anyway? Surely he should have continued until he was off the track and then braked?

#1967 Jejking

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 23:26

Why exactly did Karthikeyan slow down knowing he was on the racing line anyway? Surely he should have continued until he was off the track and then braked?

I found that strange as well, but it's a heat of the moment thing really. Normally the driver behind is responsible but imho NK caused it himself (unless his gearbox locked up f.e. which causes an instant slowing). Those two cancel each other out really.

#1968 Raelene

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 06:27

Nov.12 (GMM) Former F1 world champion Jacques Villeneuve believes that Mercedes has made the wrong choice in pairing Lewis Hamilton with Nico Rosberg next year, and says his great rival Michael Schumacher should have been retained by the team.

The 1997 world champion does not, however, question the German marque’s decision to poach Hamilton from McLaren.

Instead, Villeneuve wonders about his former title nemesis Schumacher’s exit.

“Why is he stopping?” the 41-year-old told Switzerland’s Motorsport Aktuell.

“I don’t understand. Hamilton-Schumacher would be much better than what they do have for next year,” the outspoken Villeneuve insisted.

#1969 motorhead

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:00

Nov.12 (GMM) Former F1 world champion Jacques Villeneuve believes that Mercedes has made the wrong choice in pairing Lewis Hamilton with Nico Rosberg next year, and says his great rival Michael Schumacher should have been retained by the team.

The 1997 world champion does not, however, question the German marque’s decision to poach Hamilton from McLaren.

Instead, Villeneuve wonders about his former title nemesis Schumacher’s exit.

“Why is he stopping?” the 41-year-old told Switzerland’s Motorsport Aktuell.

“I don’t understand. Hamilton-Schumacher would be much better than what they do have for next year,” the outspoken Villeneuve insisted.


Poor Jacques, he tries to prove in any ways that he is not too old for F1...wasn´t he saying before that hiring Kimi was a wrong choice for Lotus

#1970 spacekid

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:39

Nov.12 (GMM) Former F1 world champion Jacques Villeneuve believes that Mercedes has made the wrong choice in pairing Lewis Hamilton with Nico Rosberg next year, and says his great rival Michael Schumacher should have been retained by the team.

The 1997 world champion does not, however, question the German marque’s decision to poach Hamilton from McLaren.

Instead, Villeneuve wonders about his former title nemesis Schumacher’s exit.

“Why is he stopping?” the 41-year-old told Switzerland’s Motorsport Aktuell.

“I don’t understand. Hamilton-Schumacher would be much better than what they do have for next year,” the outspoken Villeneuve insisted.


Kind words from Jacques, but I'm inclined to disagree. I believe that overall Michael showed better pace than Nico at the start of the year, China excepted, but he has slipped back in terms of performance compared to his team mate in the second part of the year. Whether his inconsistency is linked to age, or he has lost faith in Mercedes (who would blame him?) or a combination I don't know, but Nico is a more 'solid' prospect for Merc, especially if they are going to remain slow and inept.

Michael at his peak was superior to Nico, but that was some time ago and if you want a driver to reliably deliver low point finishes for Mercedes right now Nico is your better option.

#1971 Kompressor

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:19

Michael at his peak was superior to Nico, but that was some time ago and if you want a driver to reliably deliver low point finishes for Mercedes right now Nico is your better option.

I've been hearing for years how Schumacher would have more points if if he had better reliability. Rosberg hasn't finished a string of races and there is still no answer from Schumacher. :rolleyes: ....next :wave:

#1972 MustangSally

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:43

I've been hearing for years how Schumacher would have more points if if he had better reliability. Rosberg hasn't finished a string of races and there is still no answer from Schumacher. :rolleyes: ....next :wave:


Hard to assess this year . . . they have both had lots of truly rubbish weekends - not entirely their own fault - and a car which lost the development race early on. Which is surprising for a team which has more technical directors than tea-ladies. Something doesn't seem to gel at this team and I think it makes both drivers look bad.


#1973 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:51

I've been hearing for years how Schumacher would have more points if if he had better reliability. Rosberg hasn't finished a string of races and there is still no answer from Schumacher. :rolleyes: ....next :wave:


The team has truly peaked in terms of patheticness so its hard to see how they can score points. If all tracks were very very long straights the Mercedes' would win them all because the DRS would get stuck open and give them a massive straight line speed advantage over the others.

Anyone notice that the team has slumped since Schumacher's decision to retire? Maybe it is a morale thing, maybe the team have been getting such a pasting from directors their confidence is at an all time low that everything they touch turns to sh*t?

Singapore 10 points

Suzuka - 0 points

Korea - 0 points (the most pathetic I've ever seen this team)

India - 0 points

Abu Dhabi - 8th was on the cars until a puncture, pace was decent.


I hope Austin and Brazil are good for the team so they can end on a high, though I think everyone is just so tired and dejected the mistakes will continue.

#1974 1Devil1

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:21

I've been hearing for years how Schumacher would have more points if if he had better reliability. Rosberg hasn't finished a string of races and there is still no answer from Schumacher. :rolleyes: ....next :wave:


It's a different not to finish a race when you are heading for a podium place or you are not finishing a race where you not even heading for points? You were the same guy, posting Nico won a race, Michael not. I understand why some users placed you on an ignore list. This argumentation is... :down:

#1975 MustangSally

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:29

Anyone notice that the team has slumped since Schumacher's decision to retire? Maybe it is a morale thing


But shouldn't they have got a morale boost from signing Hamilton?


#1976 schumimercamg

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:39

It's a different not to finish a race when you are heading for a podium place or you are not finishing a race where you not even heading for points? You were the same guy, posting Nico won a race, Michael not. I understand why some users placed you on an ignore list. This argumentation is... :down:


+1. Exactly. Michael had all his retirements when he was on for very strong points. Nico had them when he was barely on for any at all.

#1977 03011969

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:55

But shouldn't they have got a morale boost from signing Hamilton?

Perhaps some of them worked with Lewis at McLaren?

#1978 Jejking

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:59

In Rosbergs defense, he got tangled up in the mayhem which is called midfield twice. Same happened for Schumacher a couple of times. But Kompressor is wrong as always again, when Mercedes hit a low-point in performance, Schumacher couldn't make the difference and did all he could. Btw, last race with a P7 wasn't what I called 'no response', before his tyre went flat.

By the way, i'm surprised that out of this world its JV who decides to shield Schumacher for criticism. In the same article, I found Rosbergs comments a bit rich.

Edited by Jejking, 12 November 2012 - 13:02.


#1979 kpchelsea

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 13:09

Nov.12 (GMM) Former F1 world champion Jacques Villeneuve believes that Mercedes has made the wrong choice in pairing Lewis Hamilton with Nico Rosberg next year, and says his great rival Michael Schumacher should have been retained by the team.

The 1997 world champion does not, however, question the German marque’s decision to poach Hamilton from McLaren.

Instead, Villeneuve wonders about his former title nemesis Schumacher’s exit.

“Why is he stopping?” the 41-year-old told Switzerland’s Motorsport Aktuell.

“I don’t understand. Hamilton-Schumacher would be much better than what they do have for next year,” the outspoken Villeneuve insisted.

Well Rosberg is already under contract whlst Schumacher wasn't sure he even wanted to even carry on. Mercedes afterall did offer him a new contract, i'm not sure what Villenueve is even on about

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#1980 ali_M

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 13:21

In Rosbergs defense, he got tangled up in the mayhem which is called midfield twice. Same happened for Schumacher a couple of times. But Kompressor is wrong as always again, when Mercedes hit a low-point in performance, Schumacher couldn't make the difference and did all he could. Btw, last race with a P7 wasn't what I called 'no response', before his tyre went flat.

By the way, i'm surprised that out of this world its JV who decides to shield Schumacher for criticism. In the same article, I found Rosbergs comments a bit rich.


Article URL please.... :)

I've been finding Villeneuve's comments to be very interesting of late. He's very direct and makes a lot of sense most of the times now. It does help when you're no longer involved and can be direct without having your own interests clouding your appraisal of a situation.

#1981 kpchelsea

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 13:31

Anyone notice that the team has slumped since Schumacher's decision to retire? Maybe it is a morale thing, maybe the team have been getting such a pasting from directors their confidence is at an all time low that everything they touch turns to sh*t?



But shouldn't they have got a morale boost from signing Hamilton?

Maybe the two things are linked as Mercedes prepare for next season and write this season off

#1982 Jejking

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 13:42

Article URL please.... :)

I've been finding Villeneuve's comments to be very interesting of late. He's very direct and makes a lot of sense most of the times now. It does help when you're no longer involved and can be direct without having your own interests clouding your appraisal of a situation.

I was thinking it was already noted above, but it wasn't. #fail :')

http://www.yallaf1.c...e-axed-rosberg/

Maybe the two things are linked as Mercedes prepare for next season and write this season off

Jep. Morale boost, when a team stops developing a car you can only see it in preparation. Like, perfect pitstops etc.

Edited by Jejking, 12 November 2012 - 13:43.


#1983 ali_M

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 16:44

In Rosbergs defense, he got tangled up in the mayhem which is called midfield twice. Same happened for Schumacher a couple of times. But Kompressor is wrong as always again, when Mercedes hit a low-point in performance, Schumacher couldn't make the difference and did all he could. Btw, last race with a P7 wasn't what I called 'no response', before his tyre went flat.

By the way, i'm surprised that out of this world its JV who decides to shield Schumacher for criticism. In the same article, I found Rosbergs comments a bit rich.


Hmm. I got to read Rosberg's comments. What did you find 'a bit rich' about them? His apparent downplaying of his achievements with qualifying considering who his teammate was? He said that he didn't expect to have the upper hand that he did for much of the three years and that he's very happy.

I'm not sure what you're getting at and I'm curious.

#1984 black magic

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 19:03

it is more than coincidence.

it did not cause Mercedes demise, but it has been the last straw I suspect for many within the team, michael included.

#1985 Kompressor

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 22:03

Yet more stories about the demise of Mercedes because Schumacher was shown the door. It sounds like sour grapes. Taking your bat and ball and going home. Schumacher has been thoroughly outpointed by Rosberg over the term of his contract. It's surprising that they are letting Schumacher behind the wheel for the last races. They should give Sam Bird the reigns.

#1986 1Devil1

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 22:22

Yet more stories about the demise of Mercedes because Schumacher was shown the door. It sounds like sour grapes. Taking your bat and ball and going home. Schumacher has been thoroughly outpointed by Rosberg over the term of his contract. It's surprising that they are letting Schumacher behind the wheel for the last races. They should give Sam Bird the reigns.


are you for real? :drunk:

Edited by 1Devil1, 12 November 2012 - 22:23.


#1987 Schumacher7

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 22:41

Yet more stories about the demise of Mercedes because Schumacher was shown the door. It sounds like sour grapes. Taking your bat and ball and going home. Schumacher has been thoroughly outpointed by Rosberg over the term of his contract. It's surprising that they are letting Schumacher behind the wheel for the last races. They should give Sam Bird the reigns.

Wow.

#1988 D.M.N.

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:37

Whilst I personally disagree with Kompressor, its worth noting that Will Buxton has said similar over on Twitter, so Kompressor is not alone.

#1989 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:37

Yet more stories about the demise of Mercedes because Schumacher was shown the door. It sounds like sour grapes. Taking your bat and ball and going home. Schumacher has been thoroughly outpointed by Rosberg over the term of his contract. It's surprising that they are letting Schumacher behind the wheel for the last races. They should give Sam Bird the reigns.


Now you are trolling. :wave:

#1990 MightyMoose

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 14:25

Whilst I personally disagree with Kompressor, its worth noting that Will Buxton has said similar over on Twitter, so Kompressor is not alone.

Lol, if you are of the same opinion as Will Buxton, chances are you're in a very small minority! Or should Gary Paffett/Oliver Turvey be given a chance at McLaren to lead a few laps and then retire?

The original point is a poorly thought out & averagely executed baiting. It's not about "Oh the season is done, the team is clearly focused on 2013 so why not try another driver" it's merely "Schumacher sucks, clearly anything I can find to twist to suit my agenda I will do and therefore this statement is perfectly fair and unbiased".

Anyone who honestly believes that now NR has had bad reliability, MS is too incompetent to benefit from it should find another sport because this one is clearly beyond their comprehension.

#1991 BetaVersion

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 20:46

I've been hearing for years how Schumacher would have more points if if he had better reliability. Rosberg hasn't finished a string of races and there is still no answer from Schumacher. :rolleyes: ....next :wave:


Someone typically being stupid to troll a thread.

Obviously MSC's unfortunate cost him because at that time the car was capable of points. When NR had his couple(much less than MSC), the car was already crap and no points would be gained anyway

But don't let me get in the way of your drivel and just keep trolling this thread, which was quite good untill the anti-MSC brigade had reasons to have their rubbish on here again

edit: good to see that moderation is smart around here(MightyMoose)

Edited by BetaVersion, 13 November 2012 - 20:50.


#1992 Schumacher7

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 21:29

Anyone who honestly believes that now NR has had bad reliability, MS is too incompetent to benefit from it should find another sport because this one is clearly beyond their comprehension.

:up:

#1993 Jejking

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:36

Free practice sessions: ROS > MSC, the veteran seemed all over the place with traffic and lacking performance.
Q1: MSC > ROS, with ~1 second. Rosberg survives, P17.
Q2: MSC > ROS, with about 1.4 seconds. Rosberg drops out, 17th.
Q3: MSC: P6. Becomes P5.

I think we have a clear winner in qualifying, but let's wait to see Rosbergs statement about Q.

#1994 Anderis

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:39

Clearly there was some issue for Rosberg. His FP3 time would have given him 11th on the grid.

#1995 Jejking

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:54

Rosberg reports lacking rear grip "straight out of the garage". Tweet bij F1PitRadio.



#1996 BetaVersion

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:26

How is the "quali battle" now? 10-9 to Nico ? I completely lost count of this since some races ago

#1997 ivand911

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:27

How is the "quali battle" now? 10-9 to Nico ? I completely lost count of this since some races ago

10-9 for Michael. According to Sky. They say it was 9-9 before Q.

Edited by ivand911, 17 November 2012 - 20:29.


#1998 BetaVersion

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:52

10-9 for Michael. According to Sky. They say it was 9-9 before Q.


Good because now the trolls won't be able to say that Nico beaten him in all years, qualifying-wise. This year, even with all the problems that happened to MSC, it will be a tie/draw, at least

For race, I won't be surprised if both will be out of points

#1999 Paco

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 20:54

Clearly there was some issue for Rosberg. His FP3 time would have given him 11th on the grid.


So.. the track warmed up.. his times were pretty consistently slower in Qualifying...

Wait it for.. Weait for it..Mercedes will come out and say DRS or KERS failure on slowpoke :rolleyes:

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#2000 george1981

george1981
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Posted 17 November 2012 - 22:45

According to the press release Rosberg ran the old exhaust today after having made the decision to carry on with it throughout the weekend to help understand the affect it has.
Ross Brawn said that this contributed to Nico not being able to get the tyres to work.

If I remember correctly Nico was ahead of Michael in all the practice sessions with the old exhaust, which in theory should have less downforce. The temperature went up between FP3 and qualifying, shouldn't this have helped Nico more than Michael?