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Rosberg v. Schumacher, 2012


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#2001 Paco

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 01:00

According to the press release Rosberg ran the old exhaust today after having made the decision to carry on with it throughout the weekend to help understand the affect it has.
Ross Brawn said that this contributed to Nico not being able to get the tyres to work.

If I remember correctly Nico was ahead of Michael in all the practice sessions with the old exhaust, which in theory should have less downforce. The temperature went up between FP3 and qualifying, shouldn't this have helped Nico more than Michael?


Yup. Looks like Nico just didnt get qualifying right today. Happens to everyone.

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#2002 whitevisor

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 01:56

Nico had a different car to michael. Sacrificing himself for the good of the team.

#2003 MightyMoose

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 01:59

Nico had a different car to michael. Sacrificing himself for the good of the team.

It's ok, he had a different car most of the season.... his was reliable. :p

#2004 Kompressor

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 02:18

What a bold move by Rosberg to take one for the team. It's a great strategy for a struggling team. I hope both drivers finish the race. Maybe Grosjean will have another first corner incident. Should be an interesting race.

#2005 baddog

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 03:12

Nico thought the car would be faster you muppets.

#2006 exmayol

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:13

Nico thought the car would be faster you muppets.


Can't blame him. Practice times showed old setup working better.

#2007 Diablobb81

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:46

Sacrificing himself for the good of the team.


Michael's story for the last 3 years. :lol:

#2008 Schumacher7

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:26

What a bold move by Rosberg to take one for the team. It's a great strategy for a struggling team. I hope both drivers finish the race. Maybe Grosjean will have another first corner incident. Should be an interesting race.

How so?

#2009 RedBaron

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 12:44

It wasn't for the team Rosberg ran the old exhaust... he ran it in the practice sessions and deemed it faster than the new one. So he ran it for qualifying and the race to be quick. He took on gamble to try and go faster and it didn't work in qualifying for whatever reason, him or car.

It was a terrible idea and shows just how much of a shambles Mercedes are right now. Can you imagine RedBull removing theirs to see if the car would go faster? With such a proven advantage that the exhaust is giving other teams how on earth Mercedes could think they'd be faster without it is mind blowing. it was a major upgrade, one they should have had months before they did.

It either means they are stupid or they have failed miserably to create even a half decent exhaust system that they think removing and by going backwards they could actually go forwards.

#2010 Jejking

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 14:27

What a bold move by Rosberg to take one for the team. It's a great strategy for a struggling team. I hope both drivers finish the race. Maybe Grosjean will have another first corner incident. Should be an interesting race.

Oh, if it's Schumacher hitting problems, he sucks and should retire. If it's Rosberg, it's heroic and a deliberate choice to save the team. Dat irony.

Edited by Jejking, 18 November 2012 - 14:58.


#2011 sharo

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 15:01

Don't feed air to the compressor pls :)

#2012 Paco

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 16:15

Nico had a different car to michael. Sacrificing himself for the good of the team.



You really believe that. This was totally a MARKETING BULL CRAP Brawn plan to demonstrate to media and higher ups that that there R&D team gain 1s in 4months of speed. What utterly bs by Brawn and Co. Soooooo f'ing amateur.

Rather then getting out there and racing and doing the very maximum, then troll around the track embarrasing themselves. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE should the team that can qualifying top 6 intentially send a driver to the very back of the grid just to PROVE A POINT.

AXE BRAWN NOW. Embarrasing Mercedes in one of the top markets that is the USA is just plain a horrible decision. Period.

#2013 MajorRichard

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 16:58

What is the current scorecard from this tread (ie not just what the FIA table shows)? 10-9 schumacher quali, however doesn't this include Bahrain etc where he was hindered?

#2014 rog

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 18:05

It wasn't for the team Rosberg ran the old exhaust... he ran it in the practice sessions and deemed it faster than the new one.



Wrong. Rosberg drove with the coanda spec in FP3 and looked pretty good. 1,7s behind with the old spec on Friday and only 0,7s with the new spec in FP3. It was obvious from the practice sessions that the coanda spec worked much better.

#2015 ivand911

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 18:18

Wrong. Rosberg drove with the coanda spec in FP3 and looked pretty good. 1,7s behind with the old spec on Friday and only 0,7s with the new spec in FP3. It was obvious from the practice sessions that the coanda spec worked much better.

He is talking about FP1 where Nico was 1,4 sec faster with old exhaust, in FP2 and Fp3 they used new one. Still times in practices usually show nothing. They use then for testing. Michael was not very fast in trainings ,but he did well in Q. Looking from trainings time he should be out of top 10.

Edited by ivand911, 18 November 2012 - 18:20.


#2016 rog

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 18:25

He is talking about FP1 where Nico was 1,4 sec faster with old exhaust, in FP2 and Fp3 they used new one. Still times in practices usually show nothing. They use then for testing. Michael was not very fast in trainings ,but he did well in Q. Looking from trainings time he should be out of top 10.



Faster than what? Schumacher? Schumacher was so slow, he did something else. This comparison makes no sense without knowledge about their program. FP3 clearly showed that the coanda exhaust was the much better one.

#2017 ivand911

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 18:54

Faster than what? Schumacher? Schumacher was so slow, he did something else. This comparison makes no sense without knowledge about their program. FP3 clearly showed that the coanda exhaust was the much better one.

I think they take that decision from long runs in FP1, not from fast laps. It doesn't matter now. To go for old exhaust they expected to have better result with it, or they don't have clue about it. But, I don't think they just decide to test two solutions for sake of it. Lets see race pace now.


#2018 Henrik B

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:05

It seems that both specs are pretty crap.

Rosbergs car much faster than Schumachers but I have absolutely no idea how much of that was driver and how much was car difference.

#2019 ivand911

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 21:09

It seems that both specs are pretty crap.

Rosbergs car much faster than Schumachers but I have absolutely no idea how much of that was driver and how much was car difference.

It is the car, Michael didn't get so slow over night. It just cooked the tyres. Old car is slow in Q, new car is slower in race. So ,no win situation here. No points again.

Edited by ivand911, 18 November 2012 - 21:11.


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#2020 Jejking

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 22:13

This confused the shit out of me who did what better. Since both used another spec of the exhaust during the weekend, stuff is really incomparable until we get to see the data (waaaaaaaaaaaaaait for iiiiiiiiiiiiit).

#2021 baddog

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 22:40

Q to Michael, R to Nico, but for the race its like a gold star for taking part that you give to kids who aren't too bright.

What a cluster, Michael is well out of it. Nico must be wondering what he was thinking re-signing.

#2022 AJFIN

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 22:45

At least next year we can make accurate and objective comparisons between the two Merc drivers, thanks to Twitter.

#2023 Jejking

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 22:59

Q to Michael, R to Nico, but for the race its like a gold star for taking part that you give to kids who aren't too bright.

What a cluster, Michael is well out of it. Nico must be wondering what he was thinking re-signing.

I'm starting to thinking not who but what is out of it.

#2024 BetaVersion

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 00:06

Faster than what? Schumacher? Schumacher was so slow, he did something else. This comparison makes no sense without knowledge about their program. FP3 clearly showed that the coanda exhaust was the much better one.


Schumacher's Q3 time was 1,8s faster than Nico's best Q time.

No exhaust config gives you that. Rosberg should take big part of the blame for the lack of speed in this qualifying.


About the race, how can the old exhaust be allegelly better for race pace? Oh my, Mercedes is the clue-lessest team in F1


#2025 black magic

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 00:45

At least they understand the tyres now

Other cars can use them but merc cant

#2026 Disgrace

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:35

Can't blame him. Practice times showed old setup working better.


As did the race as it transpired.

#2027 Henrik B

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:39

No exhaust config gives you that. Rosberg should take big part of the blame for the lack of speed in this qualifying.


He can take about as much blame as Schumacher can for his race pace. In both cases, they most probably didn't get the tyres up to temp. You can't have the cake and eat it too, you know.

#2028 ivand911

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:57

What configuration will they use in Brazil? Think as MGP manager(oo ho this cake is good). :p

Edited by ivand911, 19 November 2012 - 08:58.


#2029 spacekid

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:15

What can we really say about that? There is no way Schumi is that much faster than Nico in quali and there is no way Nico is that much faster than Michael in the race. Michael quite literally stormed his way to the back of the grid, it was pitiful. Nico managed to claw his way up to what, 13th place? Just embarrassing.

I have no clue how to judge the drivers respective performance this weekend. None at all.

What must be going through Lewis's mind, winning the race in the car he's leaving behind and looking at what waits for him next year (quite literally if Michael was driving next years car)? I don't care how good Lewis is, no driver can work around such a fundemental lack of grip.

#2030 rog

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 15:56

Schumacher's Q3 time was 1,8s faster than Nico's best Q time.

No exhaust config gives you that. Rosberg should take big part of the blame for the lack of speed in this qualifying.


About the race, how can the old exhaust be allegelly better for race pace? Oh my, Mercedes is the clue-lessest team in F1


Rosberg couldn't prepare for the Quali nor build a suitable setup around the old exhaust because he drove the coanda exhaust in FP3. Also a bullshit to compare a Q3 time with a Q2 time since this track improved steadily. With that logic we could say Schumacher is to blame for his dead slow race pace.

#2031 BetaVersion

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:12

He can take about as much blame as Schumacher can for his race pace. In both cases, they most probably didn't get the tyres up to temp. You can't have the cake and eat it too, you know.


That's why I voted Schumi was worst of the race in the "rate GP thread".

I like to think I'm a fair fan, at least I try to.

Rosberg couldn't prepare for the Quali nor build a suitable setup around the old exhaust because he drove the coanda exhaust in FP3. Also a bullshit to compare a Q3 time with a Q2 time since this track improved steadily. With that logic we could say Schumacher is to blame for his dead slow race pace.


Even considering Q2, it was over 1,4s or something in that region.

As spacekid said, this was another crazy stupid weekend from Mercedes team. They provided one car that was okay in Q but shit in race and other that was bad in Q but not so shit in race.

This team is abysmal and hopeless imo.

I expect "Rosberg v. Hamilton 2013" thread to be just as silly as this one and both ending up loosers.

#2032 Jejking

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 21:25

With all the dust having settled it's time to make up the final verdict.

If we should believe Sky Sports, qualifying between the team mates ended in a TIE:
Schumacher 10 vs Rosberg 10.

If we look at straight results, racing between the racers ended up in a loss:
Schumacher 49 vs Rosberg 93.

If we take into account the amount of mishaps BOTH drivers encountered, it's a different story:
Schumacher ~130 vs Ros ~95 points.

Here we look at bad 'luck' for both the drivers, where being crashed out (Rosberg, twice) didn't do much for the scores because the car was off the pace on Schumacher territory. When Schumacher crashed and it was deemed his fault according to the professionals, his results for the next race were left standing with penalties etc because he brought it over himself. Also the bad technical 'luck' for both drivers, with Schumacher getting the greatest end of the stick, was taken into account.

Edited by Jejking, 25 November 2012 - 21:27.


#2033 man

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:26

So after three years:

Rosberg 3-0 Schumacher - more points, more podiums, less mistakes better qualifying results and a win in the younger German's favour.

Still, i haven't been impressed by the Merc driver line-up since 2010. Rosberg has a LOT of question marks.

At least Merc pulled off a bit of magic by signing Hamilton - one of the if not the best in the business. I expect to see some spectacular driving from Hamilton next year regardless of how competitive his car is.

#2034 Jejking

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:26

So after three years:

Rosberg 3-0 Schumacher - more points, more podiums, less mistakes better qualifying results and a win in the younger German's favour.

Still, i haven't been impressed by the Merc driver line-up since 2010. Rosberg has a LOT of question marks.

At least Merc pulled off a bit of magic by signing Hamilton - one of the if not the best in the business. I expect to see some spectacular driving from Hamilton next year regardless of how competitive his car is.

First statement: definitely false. I like what you're having :stoned:

Second statement: if the car is slightly competitive I think Hamilton will be wringing its neck and drag it up there on a more consistent basis than Rosberg.

Edited by Jejking, 26 November 2012 - 11:26.


#2035 BetaVersion

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:38

come on jejking, we all knew this kind of drivel, brought in this case by "man", would always gonna be posted in here.

Schumacher kicked too many a$$es in his career, so many bitter Senna, Hill, J.Villeneuve, Makkinen, Montoya, Alonso, Kimi.... fans will always try to look into things in the way that suits their agenda.

Schumi finished the Mercedes era once again finishing way ahead of Rosberg.

This year, in races where both finished, how is the score?

I guess it must be confortably for MSC

#2036 Jejking

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 13:13

See my calculation. It's objective but there's always gonna be one smart ass who doesn't like Schumacher and has to twist the truth.

2010: Rosberg ahead on merit
2011: Rosberg ahead but with Schumacher falling behind despite having the best results, having the bad end of the stick on qualifying and reliability grounds and making some mistakes due to overdriving in less competitive equipment.
2012: Rosberg ahead with Schumacher being the much more consistent driver in edge-losing machinery, losing a massive load of points due to mechanical issues and also some by his own hand.

Edited by Jejking, 26 November 2012 - 13:14.


#2037 schubacca

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:13

"Not all that can be counted counts, and not all that counts can be counted...."

The numbers show that NR was ahead of MSC.

In my opinion, MSC this year did not show that he did not belong in F1. It showed, at least in my opinion, a driver who had the measure of his team mate in 2012.

That is just me.

The individuals that say that he embarrassed himself are mistaking his performances for the embarrassment that is the car.

When FA says that MSC would win 3 races in the Sauber, what does not tell you of his capabilities?

Now the big question is how NR compares to LH....

That will largely define MSC's performance against the younger team mate.

Edited by schubacca, 26 November 2012 - 14:13.


#2038 aditya-now

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:21

See my calculation. It's objective but there's always gonna be one smart ass who doesn't like Schumacher and has to twist the truth.

2010: Rosberg ahead on merit
2011: Rosberg ahead but with Schumacher falling behind despite having the best results, having the bad end of the stick on qualifying and reliability grounds and making some mistakes due to overdriving in less competitive equipment.
2012: Rosberg ahead with Schumacher being the much more consistent driver in edge-losing machinery, losing a massive load of points due to mechanical issues and also some by his own hand.


End result: Nico Rosberg was always ahead of Michael Schumacher - in 2010, 2011 and 2012. Michael never got the better of him over a whole season and only managed to better Nico in single races.


#2039 MightyMoose

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 14:30

Well should I draw a comparison for NR and a former driver who excelled at qualifying & was often anonymous in races? I think so, NR is the new Trulli.

Much as I'd love to see NR show up Hamilton, I just can't see it happening. For all of LH's flaws, commitment & desire don't appear to be among them. He may be slower than NR occasionally, NR may well bring the car home more regularly than LH, but if you want a result from the Mercs next season I think your cash would be better being laid down on LH.

Anyway, back to topic and the above statement is based upon what I saw in the last 18 months or so. I was very disappointed with NR since Monaco frankly, didn't seem like he was that bothered, only appeared on the TV when something had gone wrong and MS looked far more likely to bring the car home higher up. After Bahrain when he shoved LH off the track I thought maybe he'd developed some fighting spirit - even though what he did was pretty illegal imo - but no, just reverted back to the same old stuff and that's why I never see him being in the very top bracket. He's good, fast, especially over 1 lap, just not got "it" imo.

MS.... we all know, even if some here can't be bothered to acknowledge it that a> overall his return was a disappointment, b> he got by far the worse end of the awful Merc reliability, hindering him disastrously when the car was actually capable of high points finishes - this is crucial if you wish to hang your hat on "points are all that matter" - don't go into the LH vs JB thread with that attitude, you'll be slaughtered!!!! & finally c>he was the architect of his own downfall with some n00blike errors throughout his 3 year spell. Of course, his professionalism shone through - I've wondered before if Merc are ready for the absolute opposite next season? - and so did his fighting spirit (yes, even accounting for Vettel yesterday).

How did I see this season? Well I believe NR made hay when the car was great, but even then there was several races where he gained because of MS unreliability, therefore I will maintain the points aren't a true reflection of how this season panned out. Overall I think the Q sessions were apparently scored as a tie - 10-10, so it all comes down to the races. You can't ignore the win for NR & the 2nd in Monaco, but overall a couple of very high points don't do enough to convince me that MS won this season, by a small amount and certainly not by anything like NR won 2010, but if this was a boxing match, I'd have scored this season 10-9 MS.

On that theme, if it was a boxing match after 3 rounds, I'd have it 29-28 NR - scoring 10-8 (he knocked MS down), 10-10 (2011) and 9-10. Had there been a 4th round it would have been a very interesting match up - maybe again the closest/hardest call on the grid.

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#2040 Jejking

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 16:26

End result: Nico Rosberg was always ahead of Michael Schumacher - in 2010, 2011 and 2012. Michael never got the better of him over a whole season and only managed to better Nico in single races.

It's kind of hard when your car keeps breaking down eh?

#2041 Paco

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 16:41

Fortunately... this thread is gonna die off now is about the only good thing to come out of the season ending.

Simple fact is..

Since 2010.. Nico's performance has gotten worse every year... period. Irregardless the he won a race this year (he was probably more deserving of it in the 2 previous seasons).
Since 2010.. Michael has only gotten stronger and stronger and finished the the 2nd half of the year the stronger of the 2. So while Nico's career has been on a very downward spiral Michael was only getting more and more stronger and based on how the last 24 months have gone, there is absolutely no reason to think he wouldn't have come out ahead in 2013..

Looking at stats and numbers doesn't always tell the truth since you have to take into consideration (penalties that affect your outcome in 2 races ie crash leading to a grid penalty), DNF's due to mechanical issues, stupid pit calls during a race etc.)

If I was Nico.. Id be very worried about why his performance is getting worse (appears to be slowing even more then his conservative slow pokeness) and having a new driver come in that is pretty darn quick and comfortable with this modern era of tires and electronic aids.

As for Michael.. he'll always be remember for his greatness on track, fitness and behind the scenes work within the team that is unmatched by anyone and this coming from a Jacques Villeneuve fan!

Edited by Paco, 26 November 2012 - 16:42.


#2042 Shambolic

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 18:53

It was only after reading a post on here that I realised how 2010 wasn't quite the disaster I'd thought it to be for Schumacher. But it was still poor when you think of him as *The* Schumacher. If you think of him as a 40something rookie though, it was pretty impressive. And given the car he stepped into was to his last F1 machinery what his previous machinery was to a GP2 car..

But 2011 was a good year. He finished within a second place of his team mate - 6 points in real terms (this new scoring system, and the previous which set the trend for points for showing up, are abhorrent to me) even though he had a couple of high profile incidents, and I believe an extra car issue. And again, if you look at the incidents St Lewis wasn't error free last year, nor was Schumacher tending to have carbon fibre emancipation moments when wheel to wheel with the experienced, skilled drivers. I'd give 2011 to Schumacher on performance, though the points say not on results.

But this year. Ye gods, how to shatter the determination of possibly the most determined driver ever to hold a superlicense. How many points were lost in those opening few races, more often than not due to the car being woefully unreliable. There's the obvious 18, but there's got to be another double figures count for Australia (where he also lost a truckload of points a previous season through no fault of his own), another handful in Monaco.. These are just the ones I can remember without pausing for thought. As he sees his team mate start amassing a healthy advantage, he's stuck at teh side of the road, or battling back from being Grosjean'd. Then as his luck turns, he manages to avoid the GP2 sim racer bunch, and the car makes it mostly over the line, the team starts to focus on anything but the need to develop the car to maintain, if not better, their performances. Finishing 6 places ahead of your team mate means much less when you're crossing the line eleventh, than when you're sticking it on the podium.

2012 was such a lost opportunity for Mercedes, and a denied one for Schumacher. Would have have stayed another year if things had gone better? Quite possibly, if he saw for one moment a sign this team could be anything other than a rebadged BAR. But to see him going from confident, to optimistic, to hopeful, to hanging up his gloves over the space of a few months, and end the three year experiment with poor marks in the record books.. It's tragic. Because his driving for at least half the time was worthy of far far more than the results show, and the other half wasn't at all bad when you realise he's up against people half his age (and in faster machinery).

I pray he has the fire for racing still smouldering somewhere under the Mercedes extinguishant, and puts in a few years in something like Indycar (better yet, as Ruben's team mate ;) ), or gets a Le Mans ride now and then. Because as a fan I want to see him doing what he does best, but I also think he should bow out of motorsport a winner.

#2043 Jejking

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 19:09

If I may add, there have been barely any races where the circumstances for them both have been absolutely identical in dry weather (both running in clean air, zero traffic, dog fights, same tyres, same qualifying possibilities, etc), to compare them at raw speed.

Bahrein 2010 and India 2011 proved to me that Schumacher didn't fall off the cliff. Monaco and China should have been ideal comparison opportunities but it wasn't meant to be. Maybe Monza was a good chance, there Rosberg was better at protecting his tyres and they finished neck on neck.

#2044 spacekid

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 19:10

but I also think he should bow out of motorsport a winner.


Don't worry, he has  ;)

Good post btw, I agree with your analysis, but I don't think the past 3 years have detracted from the fact Schumi is a winner in F1.

#2045 Jejking

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 19:13

Don't get your hopes up for a Schumacher on the grid in the USA, he always despised the series over there and I can't blame him ;)



#2046 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 19:35

No matter how the Schumacher fans slice it, Rosberg out performed a 7 time WDC for 3 staight years.
Not the GOAT in my opinion.

#2047 Jejking

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 19:40

No matter how the Schumacher fans slice it, Rosberg out performed a 7 time WDC for 3 staight years.
Not the GOAT in my opinion.

So, for arguments sake, you say Schumacher outperformed Hakkinen to win the Spanish GP of 2001?

#2048 spacekid

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 19:40

No matter how the Schumacher fans slice it, Rosberg out performed a 7 time WDC for 3 staight years.
Not the GOAT in my opinion.


Well thats fine as your opinion, but basing it solely on the performance of the man in his 40's against someone in his 20's??

Do you understand how sport works?

Prost had a go in a Red Bull a few months ago and was a few seconds off the current pace. And he and Senna were pretty closely matched. So there we have it, proof that Senna and Prost were rubbish and in their prime would have been spanked by anyone on today's grid.

#2049 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 19:50

So, for arguments sake, you say Schumacher outperformed Hakkinen to win the Spanish GP of 2001?

WTF does Spain '01 have to do with Rosberg beating MS for THREE straight years?

#2050 spacekid

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 20:03

WTF does Spain '01 have to do with Rosberg beating MS for THREE straight years?


Since you chose not to understand it the first time round..

WTF does a sports persons abilities in their 40's have to do with their abilities in their 20's when they are at their peak? You can either look at is as showing that Schumi was never any good as you don't expect him to decline past his mid/late 30's unlike every other F1 driver of the modern era, or showing that even though he declined he was still able to mix it with a grid 20 years younger, thus suggesting that actually in his prime before the decline... he was probably a bit special.