Jump to content


Photo

Rosberg v. Schumacher, 2012


  • Please log in to reply
2151 replies to this topic

#2101 Number62

Number62
  • Member

  • 493 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:27

James Allen is just a bitter **** and Hamilton fanboy who, therefore, hates MSC because he's greater than his idol.

Nico only started on front row twice because of MSC's penalty in Monaco.

This muppets twisted every statistic he could find in order to make it better for Nico.

Why cherry pick front row start? Because it will suit in Nico's favour with the grid penalties and etc!

Schumacher started in 2nd row in first 2 Qualifyings of 2012(4th in Melbourne and 3rd in Sepang) while Nico was very far behind.

Schumi was almost fighting for pole in rainy Germany and Silverstone while Nico was nowhere.

In average Q position, Schumacher was way better than Rosberg this year even with all the car problems(Q1 in Bahrain) and grid penalties as in Suzuka, Monaco and etc, but **** James Allen won't bring that up because it doesn't suit is agenda.

Please, don't quote this idiot anymore. He was already kicked out from British TV for good and he only deserves getting forgotten.


James Allen makes his living out of F1 punditry and still works for the BBC. You may not like it but he's posted facts.

If you have some different ones let's have a look at them.

I've yet to see sufficient evidence to conclude anything other than Rosbereg was the better driver for all 3 seasons. Not by much in 2012 but better nonetheless.

Advertisement

#2102 Leyser

Leyser
  • Member

  • 1,561 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:24

6059827[/url]']
:rolleyes: It may hurt your feelings but James Allen has simply laid out some facts. Deal with it. :wave: "the elder German was comprehensively beaten by his team-mate" He should've been ashamed to be driving around with that number 7 on his car. Nico deserved the lower race number 'every' year. :smoking:


Given your writing style and choice of words, you're the one more likely to be emotionally suffering here. It's just a sport. No one is "ashamed", everyone's a millionaire and goes home to a little castle to a pretty blond wife and a basement full of video games. Cheer up. :kiss:

Edited by Leyser, 01 December 2012 - 07:25.


#2103 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,633 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:52

Given your writing style and choice of words, you're the one more likely to be emotionally suffering here. It's just a sport. No one is "ashamed", everyone's a millionaire and goes home to a little castle to a pretty blond wife and a basement full of video games. Cheer up. :kiss:


^^

this is why friggin' ignore lists do not work. Somebody else keeps quoting on some dumbass' brainfades.

Edited by Szoelloe, 01 December 2012 - 12:49.


#2104 spacekid

spacekid
  • Member

  • 2,609 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:27

James Allen makes his living out of F1 punditry and still works for the BBC. You may not like it but he's posted facts.

If you have some different ones let's have a look at them.

I've yet to see sufficient evidence to conclude anything other than Rosbereg was the better driver for all 3 seasons. Not by much in 2012 but better nonetheless.


Fine, Nico outqualified Michael at Monaco :rolleyes:

#2105 SlateGray

SlateGray
  • Member

  • 6,122 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 01 December 2012 - 18:47

Fine, Nico outqualified Michael at Monaco :rolleyes:


The facts are very simple: Schumacher had the best qualifying time in Monaco 2012, however he did not start on pole position because of penalty. He did not win the pole position but he did have the fastest time. So it is safe to say he out qualified the entire field, was quickest, but because he did not start on pole position he did not win pole position. Those touting this achievement need only say Michael was the class of the field in Monaco qualifying, posting the best time, just like the Schumacher of old.

I found James Allen's facts very interesting, was nice of him to gift Schumacher the front row stat for China even if he only got to that position because of Hamilton's penalty, bit like the monaco pole, lost because of penalty only the other way around. Things have a way of balancing out in the long run.

Rosberg comprehensively beat Schumacher, after reviewing the facts below I feel that is the only reasonable conclusion.

Rosberg v Schumacher

Qualifying:
Faster qualifying time:
Rosberg 41 / Schumacher 17

Poles:
Rosberg 01 / Schumacher 00

Front rows:
Rosberg 02 / Schumacher 01


Races:
Wins:
Rosberg 01 / Schumacher 00

Podiums:
Rosberg 05 / Schumacher 01

Points finishes:
Rosberg 39 / Schumacher 31

DNFs:
Schumacher 15 / Rosberg 07

Best race result :
Rosberg 35 / Schumacher 22

Ahead in two-car finish:
Rosberg 22 / Schumacher 15


Championship:
Overall points:
Rosberg 324 / Schumacher 197

Seasons finished higher in standings:
Rosberg 003 / Schumacher 000

Highest championship placing:
Rosberg 7th (2010, 2011) / Schumacher 8th (2011)

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/11/schumacher-and-rosberg%E2%80%99s-head-to-head-record-at-mercedes/

#2106 AJFIN

AJFIN
  • Member

  • 119 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 01 December 2012 - 19:21

Retirements without own fault 2010-2012

Schumacher:
2010 Malaysia (Loose wheel)
2011 Australia (Rear-ended)
2011 Monaco (Fire)
2011 Hungary (Gearbox)
2011 Korea (Rear-ended)
2012 Australia (Gearbox)
2012 China (Loose wheel)
2012 Monaco (Fuel pressure)
2012 Canada (DRS/hydraulics)
2012 Hungary (Overheating)
2012 India (Gearbox)

Rosberg:
2010 Hungary (Loose wheel)
2010 Japan (Loose wheel)
2011 Australia (Rear-ended)
2011 Italy (First lap collision)
2012 Japan (First lap collision)
2012 Korea (First lap collision)

Here we can see that Rosberg suffered 2 technical failures, while Schumacher had 9.

The list doesn't included qualifying (MSC getting his DRS stuck in Bahrain this year, team sending him out too late in Canada, all the KERS and DRS failures over the years etc.)

#2107 SlateGray

SlateGray
  • Member

  • 6,122 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 01 December 2012 - 21:39

Retirements without own fault 2010-2012

Schumacher:
2010 Malaysia (Loose wheel)
2011 Australia (Rear-ended)
2011 Monaco (Fire)
2011 Hungary (Gearbox)
2011 Korea (Rear-ended)
2012 Australia (Gearbox)
2012 China (Loose wheel)
2012 Monaco (Fuel pressure)
2012 Canada (DRS/hydraulics)
2012 Hungary (Overheating)*
2012 India (Gearbox)

Rosberg:
2010 Hungary (Loose wheel)
2010 Japan (Loose wheel)
2011 Australia (Rear-ended)
2011 Italy (First lap collision)
2012 Japan (First lap collision)
2012 Korea (First lap collision)

Here we can see that Rosberg suffered 2 technical failures, while Schumacher had 9.

The list doesn't included qualifying (MSC getting his DRS stuck in Bahrain this year, team sending him out too late in Canada, all the KERS and DRS failures over the years etc.)


*The list is incomplete in the details about the of the comedy of errors that was Schumacher's weekend in Hungary 2012!
Schumacher crashed in practice on the Friday and on Saturday he was out qualified by Rosberg by 0.357 sec in Q1 and 0.828 sec in Q2. Rosberg and Schumacher both missed out on Q3. Come race day Schumacher parked his car in the wrong grid slot. :blush: The start had to be aborted and the field re-positioned while Schumacher's car was wheeled into the pit lane. Schumacher incurred a drive-through penalty for pitlane speeding as well that weekend.

"This weekend is not one to remember, but then there are weekends like this which you can only accept. I am sure we will be looking much better in the next races to come."

Rosberg brought the car home in the points that weekend. That is just one of the races you mentioned, when I get a moment I will review the others on your list. :)

Source:
www.formula1.com
in.reuters.com



#2108 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
  • Member

  • 2,926 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 01 December 2012 - 21:46

*The list is incomplete in the details about the of the comedy of errors that was Schumacher's weekend in Hungary 2012!
Schumacher crashed in practice on the Friday and on Saturday he was out qualified by Rosberg by 0.357 sec in Q1 and 0.828 sec in Q2. Rosberg and Schumacher both missed out on Q3. Come race day Schumacher parked his car in the wrong grid slot. :blush: The start had to be aborted and the field re-positioned while Schumacher's car was wheeled into the pit lane. Schumacher incurred a drive-through penalty for pitlane speeding as well that weekend.

"This weekend is not one to remember, but then there are weekends like this which you can only accept. I am sure we will be looking much better in the next races to come."

Rosberg brought the car home in the points that weekend. That is just one of the races you mentioned, when I get a moment I will review the others on your list. :)

Source:
www.formula1.com
in.reuters.com


Rosberg got lapped by Schumacher in their last ever race together. Lapped. After Schumacher was almost a lap.down on a HRT at one point.

That means that if Schumacher had a clear run, Rosberg could have been lapped TWICE by the end by the old geriatric Schumacher who was old, rubbish and too slow for F1. Tru dat :)

#2109 SlateGray

SlateGray
  • Member

  • 6,122 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 01 December 2012 - 21:57

Rosberg got lapped by Schumacher in their last ever race together. Lapped. After Schumacher was almost a lap.down on a HRT at one point.

That means that if Schumacher had a clear run, Rosberg could have been lapped TWICE by the end by the old geriatric Schumacher who was old, rubbish and too slow for F1. Tru dat :)


That was fantastic from Schumacher, for his last race and all to do so well, it looks realy good on him that he could still manage the odd flash of the old Schumacher magic now and again. :up:

#2110 Anderis

Anderis
  • Member

  • 2,654 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 01 December 2012 - 22:07

Rosberg got lapped by Schumacher in their last ever race together. Lapped. After Schumacher was almost a lap.down on a HRT at one point.

That means that if Schumacher had a clear run, Rosberg could have been lapped TWICE by the end by the old geriatric Schumacher who was old, rubbish and too slow for F1. Tru dat :)

Fantastic super-duper achievement: to lap a driver who had significantly damaged car.

For Norbert, today was an “incredibly dramatic way to round off a long championship season! Michael and Nico had to make unplanned stops for punctures caused by debris on the track, losing a lot of time in the process. Both cars sustained damage to their underbody as a result, which affected downforce and pushed up lap times, with Nico’s car suffering more than Michael’s.

source

Edited by Anderis, 01 December 2012 - 22:07.


#2111 Callisto

Callisto
  • Member

  • 2,600 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 01 December 2012 - 23:00

James Allen is just a bitter **** and Hamilton fanboy who, therefore, hates MSC because he's greater than his idol.

Nico only started on front row twice because of MSC's penalty in Monaco.

This muppets twisted every statistic he could find in order to make it better for Nico.

Why cherry pick front row start? Because it will suit in Nico's favour with the grid penalties and etc!

Schumacher started in 2nd row in first 2 Qualifyings of 2012(4th in Melbourne and 3rd in Sepang) while Nico was very far behind.

Schumi was almost fighting for pole in rainy Germany and Silverstone while Nico was nowhere.

In average Q position, Schumacher was way better than Rosberg this year even with all the car problems(Q1 in Bahrain) and grid penalties as in Suzuka, Monaco and etc, but **** James Allen won't bring that up because it doesn't suit is agenda.

Please, don't quote this idiot anymore. He was already kicked out from British TV for good and he only deserves getting forgotten.


James allen has been a huge Michael Schumacher for years

#2112 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
  • Member

  • 2,926 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 01 December 2012 - 23:10

Fantastic super-duper achievement: to lap a driver who had significantly damaged car.


source


It was a joke. Slategray didnt take the bait. He took it in good humor and turned it around on me.

Ps- imagine it was Nico who lapped a damaged MS, there would have been NO mercy for Michael. We both know it. Double standards and all that.

#2113 Afterburner

Afterburner
  • Member

  • 3,211 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 01 December 2012 - 23:32

James allen has been a huge Michael Schumacher for years

No offense meant, Callisto, but the grammar failure in this post is just priceless. :rotfl:

#2114 genespleen

genespleen
  • Member

  • 342 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:20

A tiresome "debate." Reasonable observers would see Rosberg's performances as quality, but also relatively flat overall. Steady, fast, but all-in-all unremarkable. A Thierry-Boutsen level of performance.

Schu's were more erratic: too many avoidable mistakes produced poor results. His improvement this year was very strong, but was terribly damaged by an extraordinary run of mechanical failures. When the car held together this year, he was usually a faster racer than NR.

It's still difficult to see NR as a top 5 driver. Schumacher of course has a legacy than is near-unrivaled; and he *was* after all in his 40s in this comeback. That NR, as a supposedly top driver, faired only as well as he did against MS, is telling. I think Hamilton's arrival as Mercedes will give us all a lesson here. (I say this as someone who's not a particular fan of LH.)

#2115 Number62

Number62
  • Member

  • 493 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:53

A tiresome "debate." Reasonable observers would see Rosberg's performances as quality, but also relatively flat overall. Steady, fast, but all-in-all unremarkable. A Thierry-Boutsen level of performance.

Schu's were more erratic: too many avoidable mistakes produced poor results. His improvement this year was very strong, but was terribly damaged by an extraordinary run of mechanical failures. When the car held together this year, he was usually a faster racer than NR.

It's still difficult to see NR as a top 5 driver. Schumacher of course has a legacy than is near-unrivaled; and he *was* after all in his 40s in this comeback. That NR, as a supposedly top driver, faired only as well as he did against MS, is telling. I think Hamilton's arrival as Mercedes will give us all a lesson here. (I say this as someone who's not a particular fan of LH.)


What's the evidence for this?

#2116 Pits

Pits
  • Member

  • 415 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:05

What's the evidence for this?


Just watch the races... :up:

#2117 Anderis

Anderis
  • Member

  • 2,654 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:14

I don't think there is much evidence. People have selective memory and I've got the impression that most of them here just want to believe MS was usually a faster racer than NR. There were some occassions that it actually happen. But I don't see it as a regular scheme even this season.

At the beginning of the season Rosberg had massive problems with putting together a competitive lap in Q3. He was locking up his wheels on crucial laps and he ended the qualifying below car's capabilities, making Schumacher looks good.
Then Schumacher had a massive amount of reliability problems. But many people only remember "Oh, how many points did he lost due to reliability issues!". They don't even pay attention he rarely had a real chance of beating Rosberg in those races.
In the middle of the season Rosberg had another worse period of time. He had some problems of putting everything together during wet qualifying sessions. He was caught by reliability problems in early FP3 after wet friday, which hampered him badly for the rest of the weekend.
But at the end of the season Rosberg has put it together and was faster than Schumacher more often than not. I would say he is deservedly in front od Michael in WDC although the gap is actually too big.

#2118 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:59

I don't think there is much evidence. People have selective memory and I've got the impression that most of them here just want to believe MS was usually a faster racer than NR. There were some occassions that it actually happen. But I don't see it as a regular scheme even this season.

At the beginning of the season Rosberg had massive problems with putting together a competitive lap in Q3. He was locking up his wheels on crucial laps and he ended the qualifying below car's capabilities, making Schumacher looks good.
Then Schumacher had a massive amount of reliability problems. But many people only remember "Oh, how many points did he lost due to reliability issues!". They don't even pay attention he rarely had a real chance of beating Rosberg in those races.
In the middle of the season Rosberg had another worse period of time. He had some problems of putting everything together during wet qualifying sessions. He was caught by reliability problems in early FP3 after wet friday, which hampered him badly for the rest of the weekend.
But at the end of the season Rosberg has put it together and was faster than Schumacher more often than not. I would say he is deservedly in front od Michael in WDC although the gap is actually too big.

BS, I only read Rosberg has problems this is why MS beat him. Because Michael didn't have any problems? Following you "thoughts" can we say Michael have more problems in those 3 years , this is why Nico beat him?
You mean like Monaco(fuel problem)? MS was on "pole" there. You mean like Australia(gearbox)?


#2119 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 02 December 2012 - 13:07

That was fantastic from Schumacher, for his last race and all to do so well, it looks realy good on him that he could still manage the odd flash of the old Schumacher magic now and again. :up:

With his car ,who will show more flash? Answer please. W03 is slower than STR. It is hard to flash, but thank you for trying.


Advertisement

#2120 Number62

Number62
  • Member

  • 493 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 02 December 2012 - 13:07

BS, I only read Rosberg has problems this is why MS beat him. Because Michael didn't have any problems? Following you "thoughts" can we say Michael have more problems in those 3 years , this is why Nico beat him?
You mean like Monaco(fuel problem)? MS was on "pole" there. You mean like Australia(gearbox)?


Yes obviously when one had a problem the other usually beat him. Hardly a surprise there.

The contentious point is that when cars held together MSC was USUALLY the faster racer. For which we've yet to see any evidence.

#2121 Anderis

Anderis
  • Member

  • 2,654 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 02 December 2012 - 13:18

In Monaco Schumi was not going to beat Rosberg, because he had received a grid penalty due to his own mistake.

In Australia: we never know. Rosberg was lapping slightly faster than Schumi in a couple of laps before Michael retired.

I didn't write that Rosberg had more problems than Schumi, don't know from what you got this.

I just disagree with the statement that Schumacher was clearly better of these two in the races this year if bad luck is discounted. After analysing the season I didn't get this impression. It's somehow hard to compare them because there were little occassion when both weren't hampered by any kind of bad luck, so I'm not going to insist. But I remember that between China and Canada Rosberg was on course to beat Schumacher in all of these races, but I realised majority of people tend not to realise this, the only thing they remember from that period of time was Schumacher's pole and retirements. I could get more involved in this discussion trying to back my thoughts with more facts, but I'm afraid it would demand too much of time and energy from me. I was caught several times in discussion that were going to nowhere and I don't want it to happen again. So you are free to keep your view but I recomend you to look at all of the data again because it's not obvious that Schumacher was better.

#2122 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 02 December 2012 - 13:20

Yes obviously when one had a problem the other usually beat him. Hardly a surprise there.

The contentious point is that when cars held together MSC was USUALLY the faster racer. For which we've yet to see any evidence.

What is the point? Michael retire. I think this the site you are searching for:
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php
Check also Australia, Malaysia, Monaco, Europe,GB,Germany,Spa, Monza. As always Nico cheat in Singapore taking first corner illegally.
And somebody say that Michael get more points in second half of the season.


Nico was 6,2 sec ahead of Michael in China(before he retire), so anything can still happen there. Spain ended for Michael after 12 laps,so anything could happen there. Bahrain, Nico should get penalty for pushing outside of the track. What Vettel get in Monza.
Yeah, 5 retirements in 7 races is something to remember.

Edited by ivand911, 02 December 2012 - 13:30.


#2123 Number62

Number62
  • Member

  • 493 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 02 December 2012 - 14:07

What is the point? Michael retire. I think this the site you are searching for:
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php
Check also Australia, Malaysia, Monaco, Europe,GB,Germany,Spa, Monza. As always Nico cheat in Singapore taking first corner illegally.
And somebody say that Michael get more points in second half of the season.


Nico was 6,2 sec ahead of Michael in China(before he retire), so anything can still happen there. Spain ended for Michael after 12 laps,so anything could happen there. Bahrain, Nico should get penalty for pushing outside of the track. What Vettel get in Monza.
Yeah, 5 retirements in 7 races is something to remember.


What's the Point? The point is that somebody(ies) claims Schumi was usually faster when the two cars held together.

But the EVIDENCE suggests quite the opposite.

Unless there's some EVIDENCE i haven't seen yet.

#2124 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 02 December 2012 - 14:11

What's the Point? The point is that somebody(ies) claims Schumi was usually faster when the two cars held together.

But the EVIDENCE suggests quite the opposite.

Unless there's some EVIDENCE i haven't seen yet.

Show your evidence, it will be easier to prove you wrong. :lol:


#2125 SlateGray

SlateGray
  • Member

  • 6,122 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 02 December 2012 - 14:27

With his car ,who will show more flash? Answer please. W03 is slower than STR. It is hard to flash, but thank you for trying.

Ok if you insist. In my opinion the following drivers would show more flash in the MB then the amount of flash delivered by Schumacher.

Fernando Alonso
Kimi Räikkönen
Lewis Hamilton
Jenson Button
Mark Webber
Romain Grosjean
Nico Rosberg
Nico Hulkenberg
Kamui Kobayashi

I have little doubt that the drivers listed would all have done a better job the the one Schumacher did. Which is odd because the MB ride was the perfect opportunity for Schumacher to showcase his much touted car development skills as well as his much touted team building skills.
Schumacher had a reputation, in some circles, a reputation that he could take a dog of a car and ring it's neck to get the maximum from it, more then any other driver could, turns out he was not even as good as Rosberg when it came to handling the dog car. Then there is the team building skills that Schumacher's fans always used to bang on about. After all he single-handedly took Ferrari from chaos to dynasty. So what happened, why was this golden opportunity to showcase his talents in these areas not fulfilled? The car was not so good yet it was still a top half car ending up 5th in the WCC, mostly thanks to Rosberg, but still a respectable position. So answer this question please, what happened to Schumacher's much touted skills at team building and bad car maximizing, why did he fail?

#2126 SparkPlug

SparkPlug
  • Member

  • 491 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 02 December 2012 - 15:36

Schumacher had a reputation, in some circles, a reputation that he could take a dog of a car and ring it's neck to get the maximum from it, more then any other driver could, turns out he was not even as good as Rosberg when it came to handling the dog car. Then there is the team building skills that Schumacher's fans always used to bang on about. After all he single-handedly took Ferrari from chaos to dynasty. So what happened, why was this golden opportunity to showcase his talents in these areas not fulfilled? The car was not so good yet it was still a top half car ending up 5th in the WCC, mostly thanks to Rosberg, but still a respectable position. So answer this question please, what happened to Schumacher's much touted skills at team building and bad car maximizing, why did he fail?

What do you think of the same ? What is your opinion of Schumacher's team building skills, his ability to handle bad cars in Ferrari etc. ?

#2127 LiJu914

LiJu914
  • Member

  • 1,776 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 02 December 2012 - 15:40

Schumacher had a reputation, in some circles, a reputation that he could take a dog of a car and ring it's neck to get the maximum from it, more then any other driver could, turns out he was not even as good as Rosberg when it came to handling the dog car.


Why do you think, that this would be somehow contradictory?


#2128 BetaVersion

BetaVersion
  • Member

  • 689 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 02 December 2012 - 16:09

At the beginning of the season Rosberg had massive problems with putting together a competitive lap in Q3. He was locking up his wheels on crucial laps and he ended the qualifying below car's capabilities, making Schumacher looks good.
Then Schumacher had a massive amount of reliability problems. But many people only remember "Oh, how many points did he lost due to reliability issues!". They don't even pay attention he rarely had a real chance of beating Rosberg in those races.
In the middle of the season Rosberg had another worse period of time. He had some problems of putting everything together during wet qualifying sessions. He was caught by reliability problems in early FP3 after wet friday, which hampered him badly for the rest of the weekend.
But at the end of the season Rosberg has put it together and was faster than Schumacher more often than not. I would say he is deservedly in front od Michael in WDC although the gap is actually too big.


This post doesn't add to a healthy discussion in here, tbh. Specially the bold parts.

Double standards, quite some excuses to suit an agenda and cherry picking.

Schumacher had many mistakes in his qualifying laps, too, when you mentioned Nico's ones early ones in Australia and Sepang.

In Monaco where Nico had no error, at least visually, and Schumi had 2 on his pole lap. Plus, Rosbeg had 2 runs in Q3 to extract the best he had and, again, there was no error to use as excuse. Schumacher with only one true attempt, and a couple of mistakes, was faster.

The same in Suzuka where Rosberg had plenty of running in Q1 and Q2 while Schumacher had only single ones in each session. In Q1, MSC had big traffic and was using prime tires on his single lap, still made through. In Q2, he only had a single run on option tires while Rosberg had 2(and if I remember correctly another one already in Q1 to get used to the tire's grip during the qualifying stage, totally 3 option tire's run). In his Q2 lap, Schumacher was already 2 tenths faster in S1, lost 2 tenths in Spoon(not to Rosberg but to what he could have done in the corner) due to traffic with Lewis, and was again faster in S3. With another run in options, it could be perfectly possible(and the most probable thing based on how things works) that Schumacher could be over half second faster than Rosberg, in the end.

Rosberg was also massivelly slower in Spa and Austin's qualifyings. You could have some reasons to explain part of the gap in both ocasions but not to explain the whole magnitude of the gap, i e, the excuses alone don't explain the massive gap. It was combined with poor pace from Rosberg, at least compared to what Schumacher did.

About the wet qualifyings, your excuses are all lies and pathetically fanboystic, sorry.

Rosberg was VERY slow in both Qs, simply. He had plenty of running, but was never fast. His poor pace CANNOT be explained by traffic, error, "not putting a lap together" or whatever excuse you want to make up. None of those things occured, or not in all of his laps.

Remember that Rosberg was already extremelly lucky in Silvestone's Q1 because Button would knock him out but a yellow on final corner made him lift and he was the one K.O'ed in Q1.

It's perfectly clear that Rosberg was much better if you account all 3 years. MSC was very bad in 2010(imo, with only some few exceptions) and even in 2011 he had poor Q most of the time and some horrible races too(as Abu Dhabi weekend as a whole). But it was so obvious to any unbiased viewer that Rosberg was just very slow in wet Hockenhein's and Silverstone's Qs that your bias is way too evident in the attempt to distort things and create situations/excuses that didn't happen.

But I kind of agree with you, though, that there is no conclusive evidence that MSC was usually faster, in races, than Rosberg when both had troube free sessions(and this situation was extremelly rare, let's be honest). I remember that Nico was faster in Monza's race, despite being outqualified. Rosberg was also clearly faster in Singapore's race, at least to me, while in Q MSC had a tiny upperhand as well.

Edited by BetaVersion, 02 December 2012 - 16:32.


#2129 kpchelsea

kpchelsea
  • Member

  • 249 posts
  • Joined: June 12

Posted 02 December 2012 - 16:15

What is the point? Michael retire. I think this the site you are searching for:
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php
Check also Australia, Malaysia, Monaco, Europe,GB,Germany,Spa, Monza. As always Nico cheat in Singapore taking first corner illegally.
And somebody say that Michael get more points in second half of the season.


Nico was 6,2 sec ahead of Michael in China(before he retire), so anything can still happen there. Spain ended for Michael after 12 laps,so anything could happen there. Bahrain, Nico should get penalty for pushing outside of the track. What Vettel get in Monza.
Yeah, 5 retirements in 7 races is something to remember.

I don't know too much about this debate as such but its quite obvious that Schumacher had a lot of bad luck in particular when the car was competitive at the beginning of the season, however China is an obvious race where Rosberg qualified on pole 0.5s quicker than Schumacher then pulled away from him in the race at half a second a lap, to go down the route maybe Schumacher might have beat him if he had not retired sort of ends any reasonable debate right there

#2130 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 02 December 2012 - 17:00

I don't know too much about this debate as such but its quite obvious that Schumacher had a lot of bad luck in particular when the car was competitive at the beginning of the season, however China is an obvious race where Rosberg qualified on pole 0.5s quicker than Schumacher then pulled away from him in the race at half a second a lap, to go down the route maybe Schumacher might have beat him if he had not retired sort of ends any reasonable debate right there

I have seen Michael to catch Nico , from even bigger difference(6,2 sec). We know nothing about how cars we set up. Who wanted to protect tyres more in Q. As I said anything could happen. Or simple, team could make the mistake with Nico tyres and Michael to beat him. As happen with Michael. So, debate is open.

Edited by ivand911, 02 December 2012 - 17:01.


#2131 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 02 December 2012 - 17:20

So answer this question please, what happened to Schumacher's much touted skills at team building and bad car maximizing, why did he fail?

This was answered in Michael thread too. No testing, and to have team building you need team to cooperate. If not ,good luck with team building.
We will see next year how will develop the team/Lewis and how Lewis will do the team building. :lol:
About drivers, I doubt the group you put there will do much better. Check British GP. How MS beat McLarens. Did you see how bad Webber and Button underperformed this year? In their space ships cars. Yeah, and this guys will beat Michael with W03. Koba?? All drivers you show have better cars than Michael this year.
About Nico , Michael lost 43 potential points in China and Monaco.This put them equal. MS lost also other points.


#2132 Cult

Cult
  • Member

  • 419 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 02 December 2012 - 18:30

Ok if you insist. In my opinion the following drivers would show more flash in the MB then the amount of flash delivered by Schumacher.

Fernando Alonso
Kimi Räikkönen
Lewis Hamilton
Jenson Button
Mark Webber
Romain Grosjean
Nico Rosberg
Nico Hulkenberg
Kamui Kobayashi

I have little doubt that the drivers listed would all have done a better job the the one Schumacher did. Which is odd because the MB ride was the perfect opportunity for Schumacher to showcase his much touted car development skills as well as his much touted team building skills.
Schumacher had a reputation, in some circles, a reputation that he could take a dog of a car and ring it's neck to get the maximum from it, more then any other driver could, turns out he was not even as good as Rosberg when it came to handling the dog car. Then there is the team building skills that Schumacher's fans always used to bang on about. After all he single-handedly took Ferrari from chaos to dynasty. So what happened, why was this golden opportunity to showcase his talents in these areas not fulfilled? The car was not so good yet it was still a top half car ending up 5th in the WCC, mostly thanks to Rosberg, but still a respectable position. So answer this question please, what happened to Schumacher's much touted skills at team building and bad car maximizing, why did he fail?


This reputation was gained about 15-20 years ago, times change and age affects even the best F1 drivers.

#2133 Number62

Number62
  • Member

  • 493 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 02 December 2012 - 21:00

Show your evidence, it will be easier to prove you wrong. :lol:


That's interesting.

Your starting position is to prove me wrong.

My starting position is to see where the evidence takes us.

Not much common ground for discourse I fancy.



#2134 Raelene

Raelene
  • Member

  • 5,312 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:58

..... his much touted car development skills as well as his much touted team building skills.
Schumacher had a reputation, in some circles, a reputation that he could take a dog of a car and ring it's neck to get the maximum from it, more then any other driver could, turns out he was not even as good as Rosberg when it came to handling the dog car. Then there is the team building skills that Schumacher's fans always used to bang on about. After all he single-handedly took Ferrari from chaos to dynasty. So what happened, why was this golden opportunity to showcase his talents in these areas not fulfilled? The car was not so good yet it was still a top half car ending up 5th in the WCC, mostly thanks to Rosberg, but still a respectable position. So answer this question please, what happened to Schumacher's much touted skills at team building and bad car maximizing, why did he fail?



sigh....again, testing in the days when MSC used to pound the pavements was a WHOLE lot different than today's no testing - a driver could provide a hell of a lot more feedback and thus development would be a lot quicker. You know that... MSC was known - not just by his fans but by many in the industry to provide great feedback and be relentless in his testing duties.

so stop talking absolute bollocks just so you can have another bash.

quick quote for you from SFW back in 2003

"Michael is still the best one out there," Williams said. "I say that happily and grudgingly. The sun is not about to set on him.

"I rather wish he would go away sometimes but I have come to the conclusion this season that he is the best motor racing driver there has ever been. He is the complete package. He is a brilliant driver and a phenomenally hard worker. He's got just about everything.

"I would still like to have Michael as a Williams driver some time in the future. It's an ambition not a dream. But my hunch is he will step out of Ferrari into obscurity... if he can find it.

"I understand his contract runs out at the end of next season but all the signals are that they are trying to keep him and the rest of the current team together until the end of 2006."



Edited by Raelene, 03 December 2012 - 07:06.


#2135 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 6,895 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:44

Aditya , not a good year ?  ;)


Wrong, one of the best championships of all time. Alonso magnificent - already now one of the best of all times, Vettel super firm in his belief, concentration and speed, Kimi a revelation in terms of how to make a comeback. According to Alan Jones the best comeback since Niki Lauda. Alan graciously didn't go into details about the Schumacher comeback.

Lewis wonderfully fast, definitely he and Seb are the fastest today, while Fer and Kimi are the most complete drivers at this point. Will be interesting to see how Lewis compares to Nico next year and will tell us more about Michael's relative performance.

New stars have arrived - Hulk, Maldonado, Perez - although it remains to be seen who of them will really deliver consistently.

Rosberg and Schumacher, third year, to me both drivers disappointed, but even more so Mercedes GP disappointed. I fully sympathize with you Schumacher fans, the year was a real pain in the behind. Michael drove at points brilliantly like his old self, but made incredible mistakes at other times.

Good for Michael that he finally retired, he has earned his right to another life, and if he had continued it wouldn't have become better IMHO. Lewis will bring a fresh wind to Brackley, and we'll see what Lauda will accomplish.

If we don't meet again here, already now Merry Christmas to you, Ivan, and looking forward to a great 2013 - to me it will be the 44th year of watching F1 championships (luckily in Austria they were televised, thanks to Rindt and Lauda, since 1970 on state-owned television ORF).





#2136 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 6,895 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:56

Still, i haven't been impressed by the Merc driver line-up since 2010. Rosberg has a LOT of question marks.


Which leaves even more question marks about the second career of Michael Schumacher.


The ultimate teammate comparison by James Allen:

Qualifying
Faster qualifying time: Rosberg 41 / Schumacher 17
Poles: Rosberg 1 / Schumacher 
0
Front rows: Rosberg 2 / Schumacher 1

Races
Wins: Rosberg 1 / Schumacher 0
Podiums: Rosberg 5 / Schumacher 1
Points finishes: Rosberg 39 / Schumacher 31
DNFs: Rosberg 7 / Schumacher 15
Best race result (inc DNFs): Rosberg 35 / Schumacher 22
Ahead in two-car finish: Rosberg 22 / Schumacher 15

Championship
Overall points: Rosberg 324 / Schumacher 197
Seasons finished higher in standings: Rosberg 3 / Schumacher 0
Highest championship placing: Rosberg 7th (2010, 2011) / Schumacher 8th (2011)



James Allen legitimately leaving out Monaco 2012, as it was the fastest qualifying time by Michael, but not pole position. Hence also Nico on first row - it was all achieved by Michael's own carelessness the race before, so Schumacher has only himself to blame.


James Allen is just a bitter **** and Hamilton fanboy who, therefore, hates MSC because he's greater than his idol.

Nico only started on front row twice because of MSC's penalty in Monaco.

This muppets twisted every statistic he could find in order to make it better for Nico.

Why cherry pick front row start? Because it will suit in Nico's favour with the grid penalties and etc!

Schumacher started in 2nd row in first 2 Qualifyings of 2012(4th in Melbourne and 3rd in Sepang) while Nico was very far behind.

Schumi was almost fighting for pole in rainy Germany and Silverstone while Nico was nowhere.

In average Q position, Schumacher was way better than Rosberg this year even with all the car problems(Q1 in Bahrain) and grid penalties as in Suzuka, Monaco and etc, but **** James Allen won't bring that up because it doesn't suit is agenda.

Please, don't quote this idiot anymore. He was already kicked out from British TV for good and he only deserves getting forgotten.


BetaVersion, you obviously offer much deeper insights than James Allen. Why not open you own F1 website?

Also, I see nothing wrong with Allen's comparison - it was done exactly in the same style like the Hamilton - Button comparison. And, if, as you say, Allen were a Hamilton fanboy he would have to cringe when stating that Jenson beat Lewis over the three years....

James Allen stayed with the facts in numbers.

Again, there is nothing wrong with James Allen's statistics, it is what it is. If Schumacher fans cannot accept it it would be the same like Alonso fans not being able to accept that Fer lost the 2012 WDC to Seb by 3 points, although being arguably the better driver over the year. Still, Seb is the champion.

Numbers don't lie in F1, as you all know yourself when we speak about Michael's 7 times WDC.

There you are, in Michael's first career his fans always insist on "numbers don't lie". In Michael's second career it suddenly is the other way round:"the numbers don't tell the full story!"

So which way do you want to have it? Both ways surely don't go....

#2137 stillOrange

stillOrange
  • Member

  • 921 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:57

Maybe it isn't a bad time to have a poll to see who the general population of this forums thinks has performed better over last 3 years?
Just to see how people, who normally have no interest in taking part in this topic, look at both MGP drivers performance.


#2138 Raelene

Raelene
  • Member

  • 5,312 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:59

the answser is easy though - OVERALL yes, Nico performed better... main crux of this thread has been those that thing MSC performed badly... this year, he did lift his game, IMO, considerably.

#2139 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 6,895 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:06

Maybe it isn't a bad time to have a poll to see who the general population of this forums thinks has performed better over last 3 years?
Just to see how people, who normally have no interest in taking part in this topic, look at both MGP drivers performance.


It would be good to add to this poll another category of questions:

* Are you a fan of Michael?
* Are you a critic of Michael?
* Are you neutral towards Michael in your assessment.

Otherwise such a poll would only become another popularity contest. Also, for some fans of Michael it will be hard to judge if they are neutral towards Michael.

If you ask me, I am not neutral towards him but critical.

So my critical vote would be: Nico defeated Michael conclusively.
My neutral vote would be: Michael improved throughout all three years, while Rosberg either stagnated, became worse or improved at a slower rate than Michael. Overall, though, Nico has won over Michael in all three years, like Vettel has won in all three years over Alonso, whatever the story behind.

Advertisement

#2140 stillOrange

stillOrange
  • Member

  • 921 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:22

As far as I know, you can only have 3 questions in a poll. So how about?

1. Who in your opinion was a better MGP driver over whole 3 year period?
a Nico
b Michael
c over 3 year period it's impossible to say who was better

2. Which MGP driver was better in 2012 season?
a Nico
b Michael
c it's impossible to say (for whatever reason)

3. Would you consider yourself a critic of any of the drivers?
a Nico's critic
b Michael's critic
c Not critical of any of them

Would such questions be impartial enough?

#2141 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,468 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:24

Over the last 3 years the answer is obvious and undeniable.

The discussion comes from the fact that Michael steadily improved and imo he was overall better this year. And actually i agree with the last part of aditya's post.

Your poll would be better if you just ask if the poster is impartial (fan/critic) towards either driver. You might not be a critic but you might be a fan.

Edited by Diablobb81, 03 December 2012 - 09:27.


#2142 Raelene

Raelene
  • Member

  • 5,312 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:29

Over the last 3 years the answer is obvious and undeniable.

The discussion comes from the fact that Michael steadily improved and imo he was overall better this year. And actually i agree with the last part of aditya's post.

Your poll would be better if you just ask if the poster is impartial (fan/critic) towards either driver. You might not be a critic but you might be a fan.



agree - I'm nokt sure what the point of a poll would be..

#2143 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 6,895 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:31

As far as I know, you can only have 3 questions in a poll. So how about?

1. Who in your opinion was a better MGP driver over whole 3 year period?
a Nico
b Michael
c over 3 year period it's impossible to say who was better

2. Which MGP driver was better in 2012 season?
a Nico
b Michael
c it's impossible to say (for whatever reason)

3. Would you consider yourself a critic of any of the drivers?
a Nico's critic
b Michael's critic
c Not critical of any of them

Would such questions be impartial enough?


I think it would be interesting if you put up such a poll - still the main question is not "Nico's critic" but whether people are * fan of Michael, * critic of Michael or * impartial to Michael. Michael polarizes way more than Nico, so that's why I would put this question like this. If you have doubt you can add in the third category: * fan of Nico or * critic of Nico or * impartial to Nico.

That would cover all bases.


#2144 stillOrange

stillOrange
  • Member

  • 921 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:44

agree - I'm nokt sure what the point of a poll would be..


You're probably quite right that there is no point in asking the first question. I do acknowledge now that a general consensus, even amongst Schumacher fans, is that Rosberg was a better driver over 3 years period.
I have to say that after reading this thread on regular basis I thought that there is still number of people that don't agree with that. But lets just leave it here.

Than what about the question 2? It is very hotly debated here but you must agree that only a small number of people keeps on contributing. Wouldn't you like to know what people in general think about Rosberg vs Schumi in 2012? "Most people can see ..." "It's clear that X was faster in race/this weekend" and similar have been used in this thread hundreds of times yet we don't know it.

Edited by stillOrange, 03 December 2012 - 09:45.


#2145 Raelene

Raelene
  • Member

  • 5,312 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:09

not really - I've been round here long enough to know what the result will be....from both fans - and haters. Where MSC is, I don't believe there are any neutrals.

#2146 SlateGray

SlateGray
  • Member

  • 6,122 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 03 December 2012 - 18:23

sigh....again, testing in the days when MSC used to pound the pavements was a WHOLE lot different than today's no testing - a driver could provide a hell of a lot more feedback and thus development would be a lot quicker. You know that... MSC was known - not just by his fans but by many in the industry to provide great feedback and be relentless in his testing duties.

so stop talking absolute bollocks just so you can have another bash.


OK we agree that Schumacher did lots of testing in the past! However that fact does not explain away the team building that never happened at MB? Was it 100% the teams fault, where they so completely inept that even Schumacher could not mold them into a cohesive unit or should some to the credit for the results also be shared with Schumacher?
Second point was that Schumacher had a reputation for being a master with a dog car, extracting more then any other driver ever could. MB handed him the perfect opportunity to showcase this talent yet it never happened, as I said Rosberg did a better job with the so called dog car then Schumacher did. So what happened? Was it that Schumacher was never much of a team-builder and not very good with bad cars to begin with or do you have some logical explanation to account for the results. We all know that he can win from the front in the best car with a loyal #2 guarding his backside, we saw more then enough of this to see that it is true.
Was the difference this time that Schumacher had to actually compete with a teammate fair and square for the first time in his F1 career? MB's 5th ranked car should have been a golden opportunity for Schumacher to show us these much touted talents, confirming that all the noise from his fans over the years was not just baloney. You seem to be an expert on Schumacher perhaps you could enlighten us without calling anyone a toll or a hater. Please I would like an honest answer to those questions, just trying to understand what happened. Please don't reply with your usual labeling and name calling, if you have no answer I suggest you don't answer.

#2147 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,089 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 03 December 2012 - 18:54

Would be simple if we took the MS of 1996 who stepped into a car that wasn't great at all, and plugged him into the 2012 Merc...... wonder if we'd notice much of a difference?

MS showed you can remain a professional even under extremely trying circumstances, after all given his mechanical luck this year it would have been easy for him to say "I returned for this frickkin' joke?" Except he didn't, he was nothing other than a team player. Which to those who actually were fans surely wasn't a surprise after how he handled the Japan 06 retirement. Yes, there were times when Merc bosses could have asked MS "WTF was that?" but far fewer than the times he could have slated them

There's plenty who can argue accurately that when the merc was a pile of shit in the last half of the season MS was doing better with it than NR, does that suggest he is still capable of occasional magic in a crap car, just not as capable as often as before?

The problem as I see it, is certain people here are all too willing to pin their hat on the "He was never good without everything being handed to him" label when they won't even consider that F1 in 2010-2012 is very much different to 1991-2006 and that's before we look at the advanced age of Schumacher.


#2148 schubacca

schubacca
  • Member

  • 795 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 03 December 2012 - 19:05

Ok if you insist. In my opinion the following drivers would show more flash in the MB then the amount of flash delivered by Schumacher.

Fernando Alonso
Kimi Räikkönen
Lewis Hamilton
Jenson Button
Mark Webber
Romain Grosjean
Nico Rosberg
Nico Hulkenberg
Kamui Kobayashi

I have little doubt that the drivers listed would all have done a better job the the one Schumacher did. Which is odd because the MB ride was the perfect opportunity for Schumacher to showcase his much touted car development skills as well as his much touted team building skills.
Schumacher had a reputation, in some circles, a reputation that he could take a dog of a car and ring it's neck to get the maximum from it, more then any other driver could, turns out he was not even as good as Rosberg when it came to handling the dog car. Then there is the team building skills that Schumacher's fans always used to bang on about. After all he single-handedly took Ferrari from chaos to dynasty. So what happened, why was this golden opportunity to showcase his talents in these areas not fulfilled? The car was not so good yet it was still a top half car ending up 5th in the WCC, mostly thanks to Rosberg, but still a respectable position. So answer this question please, what happened to Schumacher's much touted skills at team building and bad car maximizing, why did he fail?


Dude, you are really clutching here for the following reasons:

-MS's reputation of coaxing the most out of a car was established because he DID perform feats of greatness in his early career at Ferrari. This is not a myth.

-Regarding who would do a better job in the Mercedes, we are not dealing in pure conjecture:

Fernando Alonso: One could argue he has never driven a car as bad as the Mercedes. Sauber, Renault, McLaren, and now Ferrari. A case could be made that all those cars were better. Regardless, he is my driver of 2012

Kimi Räikkönen: Another driver that started at Sauber, which is a decent car. McLaren and Ferrari both provided him with race-winning cars. The Lotus 2012-spec is a faster car throughout the season. Some could argue he should have won more than one race

Lewis Hamilton: Ermmmmm..... He has only driven a McLaren...... Nuff said

Jenson Button: Now I have respect for JB because he drove for BAR/Honda.

Mark Webber: The guy cracked under pressure in 2010 costing him a WDC. I am not sure where we find that he could perform miracles in a Mercedes. He cannot do so with a Newey-designed Red Bull.

Romain Grosjean: If MSC causes an accident in a Mercedes because he is over-driving the car, what is RG's excuse when driving the superior Lotus?

Nico Rosberg: The man did what he was supposed to do largely. He beat MSC fair and square in 2010. Not so sure about 2011 and 2012...

Nico Hulkenberg: Lowered expectations is a great thing....

Kamui Kobayashi: Perez is racing for Macca....

MS was old. But to fault him for not elevating the Mercedes is to fault FA for not winning the WDC this year...




#2149 kpchelsea

kpchelsea
  • Member

  • 249 posts
  • Joined: June 12

Posted 03 December 2012 - 19:49

I have seen Michael to catch Nico , from even bigger difference(6,2 sec). We know nothing about how cars we set up. Who wanted to protect tyres more in Q. As I said anything could happen. Or simple, team could make the mistake with Nico tyres and Michael to beat him. As happen with Michael. So, debate is open.

There's nothing to suggest that Rosberg had a problem in the race with his tyres

#2150 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,089 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 03 December 2012 - 19:56

There's nothing to suggest that Rosberg had a problem in the race with his tyres

Correct, though it was a pattern that often MS seemed to stretch his tires further than NR in 2011, in China the best MS could have got was likely to be 2nd, and that's assuming that his early pitstop didn't leave him in a "Raikkonen Cliff" slide down the order in the last few laps.

I've got no objection to debating some of the races this season, but I think trying to say NR could/would have lost China is more than a stretch & unfair as well.