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McLaren chromatic conundrums


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#1 Amphicar

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 20:35

In the spirit of the "yellow stripe on the Lotus 25" thread, I am moved to ask something that has long puzzled me:

Why was the first McLaren F1 car to race, the M2b in 1966, painted white with a dark blueish green stripe? Those were not the official New Zealand racing colours (green and silver, I believe) nor, in those innocent days, were they the colours of a commercial sponsor.

Furthermore, why did the M2B's successor, the F2-based M4B, sport a red with a white nose livery - the racing colours of Switzerland, I believe? The 4B was superseded by the M5A, which was red with a blue stripe - almost (but not quite) the colours of Chile.

It wasn't until 1968 with the M7A, that F1 McLarens sported orange(ish) paintwork, though the Can-Am M6As had adopted it the previous year. For many years I thought the orange was because of Gulf sponsorship - but in 1967 and 1968 the M7A and M6A bore 76 Union/Valvoline and Shell stickers respectively. So why orange?


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#2 D-Type

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 20:47

I think the 1966 M2b colour scheme was chosen by MGM for the film Grand Prix. They needed a colour scheme that would be recognisably different on screen from the Ferraris and BRMs . But surely they could have chosen white and red like Honda? Macca, where are you?

#3 Doug Nye

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 20:49

In 1966 I wondered which came first, the green-striped white livery on the Mallite McLaren or that livery in the imagination of Frankenheimer's 'Grand Prix' production designer? The M5A, by the way, was brick red with edged green stripe - not blue. I'm pretty sure Teddy Mayer had a decisive say in liveries used. He was well ahead of his time in understanding clear visibility and instant identity on TV and in colour newsreel coverage. This achieved its aim with. what he called 'papaya' - or what others dubbed 'McLaren orange'.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 25 January 2012 - 20:50.


#4 kayemod

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 20:54

So why orange?


On colours for older cars I can't help you, but some time in the late 60s Bruce wanted to settle on one colour for all the factory McLarens. He was at Specialised Mouldings in Huntingdon one day, saw some Lola bodywork in a shade of orange he liked, I think it was destined for Hugh Dibley, and settled on that. The colour is a standard pigment from the Llewellyn Ryland range, it's called 'traffic yellow', and they still make it today, ask for code 11040 if you want some. The later Gulf sponsorship was just a lucky coincidence, no more than that. Bruce wanted something distinctive that would show up well in photos etc.


#5 Tim Murray

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 21:11

Discussed previously in several threads - this one is probably the most relevant, and also includes an amusing digression onto 'brown BRMs'. :lol:

Early McLaren liveries

#6 kayemod

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 22:08

Discussed previously in several threads - this one is probably the most relevant, and also includes an amusing digression onto 'brown BRMs'. :lol:

Early McLaren liveries


Ah yes, brown BRMs...

That thread was one of the all-time grates.


#7 David McKinney

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 22:14

what he called 'papaya' - or what others dubbed 'McLaren orange'.

Funnily enough, I looked up 'papaya' in the dictionary earlier today. It's an old word for pawpaw...

#8 mfd

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 22:40

one of the all-time grates.


Double-entendre, Rob?

#9 jj2728

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 23:14

Does this help?

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#10 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 23:14

Originally posted by David McKinney
Funnily enough, I looked up 'papaya' in the dictionary earlier today. It's an old word for pawpaw...


And I think in some places it's a current word for pawpaw...

Or it has been in the recent past. I've certainly heard it used.

#11 kayemod

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 23:16

Double-entendre, Rob?


Thank you Sir, don't mind if I do!


#12 austmcreg

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 00:37

In 1966 I wondered which came first, the green-striped white livery on the Mallite McLaren or that livery in the imagination of Frankenheimer's 'Grand Prix' production designer? DCN

The white with green stripe livery came before either the 1966 F1 car or the film. Bruce's 1965 Tasman series (January- March) Cooper used this same livery. His team mate Phil Hill used white with blue stripe (USA colours).

Rob Saward

#13 PCC

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 01:12

Bruce wanted something distinctive that would show up well in photos etc.

Of course, there was a lot more black & white than colour in those days. My introduction to racing came from reading my Dad's Autoweek magazines, which only had b&w photos. I arrived at my first major race (Can-Am, Mosport, 1969) at the age of seven, secure in the knowledge that these glorious cars were all painted in shades of grey. Imagine my shock, and wonder, and delight when the McLaren M8B first came into sight...

#14 philippe7

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 06:26

And I think in some places it's a current word for pawpaw...
Or it has been in the recent past. I've certainly heard it used.



If french we certainly call a pawpaw "papaye".... at least here in New Caledonia ( they don't grow very well in metropolitan France actually :) )


#15 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 11:24

When New Zealander Sid Jensen raced in England in the 1950's his Formula 2 Cooper was coloured orange, as were the later McLarens. I sometimes wondered why New Zealanders should favour that colour. Its all Dutch to me!. :cool:

#16 kayemod

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 12:27

That light yellow-orange colour was a standard item in the range that SM offered to all their customers, so anyone could have chosen it. Going back that far, I can't remember how popular it was, but I think that a stronger orange in the range with the similarly fruity name of "Tangerine" was rather more popular. As far as I know, ethnicity or country of birth wasn't much of a factor in customer colour choice. When I went to Lotus, Elans and the like came in a range of bright shades, Colin Chapman used to refer to them disparagingly as "Smartie colours". We used a very similar shade of orange to the McLarens, but in the Lotus case it was a paint from Fiat's range, they called it "Positano yellow". Apart from a few Elan +2 roofs, all Loti were painted, bodies were moulded in clear, whereas back then McLarens never were, that light orange was the shade the bodies were moulded in by SM.

#17 Macca

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 12:44

The point we never pinned down was why BM chose white-with-stripe for the 65 Tasman series, as he'd seemingly told MN a different scheme firstly - perhaps Howden can help?

Also was there a communications breakdown with MGM/Jim Russell, who turned up at Monaco with plain white 'Yamuras'?

See here.

Paul M

Edited by Macca, 26 January 2012 - 12:53.


#18 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 13:21

Can I suggest that the strong ties between Bruce and the Mayer/Alexander alliance might have come into it?

It seems to me, though I don't actually know, that the bond between them was also a financial bond. There was a lot of US money (and connections), it seems to me, in the McLaren team by the end of 1965.

So for the '65 Tasman we have Bruce from NZ and Phil Hill from the USA with Bruce's money and quite likely some US financing in the background. They were running Firestones, too, don't forget.

To run one car with a leaning towards US colours was not out of place, was it?

#19 Michael Ferner

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 19:53

And I think in some places it's a current word for pawpaw...

Or it has been in the recent past. I've certainly heard it used.


I had to look up what pawpaw means... and found out it's Papaya [in German]! :D

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#20 ellrosso

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 20:16

Not the most descriptive shots re the stripes but they are visible at least.

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#21 ellrosso

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 20:18

Both shots are oldracephotos/Pat Smith Longford 1965.

#22 D-Type

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 20:24

Can I suggest that the strong ties between Bruce and the Mayer/Alexander alliance might have come into it?

It seems to me, though I don't actually know, that the bond between them was also a financial bond. There was a lot of US money (and connections), it seems to me, in the McLaren team by the end of 1965.

So for the '65 Tasman we have Bruce from NZ and Phil Hill from the USA with Bruce's money and quite likely some US financing in the background. They were running Firestones, too, don't forget.

To run one car with a leaning towards US colours was not out of place, was it?

There's some logic there:
US funding
Phil Hill in a variation of the US colours of "white body and bonnet, blue chassis"
Bruce in similar colours so that if they need to swap cars it's not difficult to repaint the stripe
Bruce keeps the same colours for the Grand Prix season
Frankenheimer is happy with the colour as it contrasts nicely with red ferraris, green Jordan BRMs with dayglo orange noses and the rest
Jim Russell is unsure of what shade of green and reckons that if he turns up with white "Yamuras2 he can easily buy the right shade of green somewhere in Monaco

But it doesn't explain the other colours. Could be as simple as just wanting the car to look distinctive and stand out from the crowd?


(Incidentally the fruit tree outside our front door in Nairobi was definitely a pawpaw. If this the usual case of the written word depends on the nationality of the first missionary to write it down?)


#23 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 20:48

kaydee posted a number of shots of those cars at Longford at the beginning of the Aussie 'Personal photos' thread...

Every time I see stuff from this meeting I am literally transported back to the most wonderful motor sporting days of my life!

#24 arttidesco

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 01:44

(Incidentally the fruit tree outside our front door in Nairobi was definitely a pawpaw.)


Same in Zambia outside our back door, yummy when frozen with mango and pineapple also from the back garden :up:

#25 pacificquay

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 11:41

Called a papaya in the UK.

Had to look up what pawpaw meant.

#26 Amphicar

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 13:50

Still on the topic of colours of Kiwi F1 cars - was there any particular reason why the Amon F101 was pale blue?

#27 Barry Boor

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 17:46

Yes, because it is a pretty colour and no other cars at that time were light blue. :)

BTW, Eric, are you sure Syd Jensen's car wasn't red - albeit a lightish shade thereof?

Edited by Barry Boor, 27 January 2012 - 17:47.


#28 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 17:55

BTW, Eric, are you sure Syd Jensen's car wasn't red - albeit a lightish shade thereof?

You could be right Barry. Pehaps it was really more of an orange'y sort of red!. It was a while ago now, but do remember that old Sid was pretty nifty in that car!.

#29 David McKinney

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 18:40

But not as fast as Syd :lol:

#30 Bauble

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 19:41

I have stated in the past that it is not wise to question Eric's memory on such matters, but I remember the Jensen Cooper as being red, but I will certainly agree with his description of him as being nifty. He was a favourite of ours.

Greetings, OG

#31 BRG

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 20:22

Yes, because it is a pretty colour and no other cars at that time were light blue.

Or had he nicked some blue paint during his Matra days?

#32 BRG

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 20:22

Yes, because it is a pretty colour and no other cars at that time were light blue.

Or had he nicked some blue paint during his Matra days?

#33 Barry Boor

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 20:44

I know you are only joking but it was nothing like Matra blue, anyway.

#34 Macca

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 12:55

All the discussion of why BM adopted mainly white as the colours for the '65 Tasman series is very plausible, but it would be good to hear first-hand, from Wally or Howden or Eoin - can anyone help?

Paul M

#35 elansprint72

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 14:08

Called a papaya in the UK.

Had to look up what pawpaw meant.


Something to do with Olive Oyl, I believe.

#36 MCS

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 21:28

Still on the topic of colours of Kiwi F1 cars - was there any particular reason why the Amon F101 was pale blue?


An excellent question. I have often wondered about this and maybe Barry's comment is true.

But I also heard (long ago) that a potential backer had those colours, but pulled out because of the economic difficulties at the time - three day week, etc...


#37 D-Type

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 22:52

An excellent question. I have often wondered about this and maybe Barry's comment is true.

But I also heard (long ago) that a potential backer had those colours, but pulled out because of the economic difficulties at the time - three day week, etc...

Wouldn't that be typical "Amon luck"

Edited by D-Type, 04 February 2012 - 22:53.


#38 kayemod

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 23:33

Wouldn't that be typical "Amon luck"


Maybe the putative backer was an undertaker, Mario's oft repeated quip almost coming true.