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#51 David McKinney

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 09:19

I can't check the timing easily, but my memory is that the HSCC's Historic Formula One series, popularly known as 'Hifo', at some point became the Thoroughbred Grand Prix series, still administered by the HSCC but not an official FIA championship, and in 1994 or 1995 (depending on sources) turned into the FIA Historic F1 Championship

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#52 Allen Brown

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 10:11

As memories can't be trusted, especially mine, I have dug out some facts.

The last HSCC 3-litre Historic F1 race was at Dijon on 25 Sep 1994; the first race of the TGP era was at Thruxton on 17 Apr 1995 (won by John Fenning in his Williams FW07B) but that was effectively "non-championship" so the first race counting to the FIA Thoroughbred Grand Prix series was at Donington on 21 May 1995 (won by Mike Littlewood in a Shadow DN9B). I was there (of course :) ) and can confirm that it was billed as the "FIA Cup for Thoroughbred Grand Prix Cars" which the program says "is sure to rapidly become the flagship of HSCC's motor sport". So still organised by the HSCC at that point but the championship had official FIA status from the outset.

According to Google News Archive, it was still called TGP as recently as 2005 and possibly 2006, and then "FIA Historic Formula One" from 2007. How soon we forget!

#53 David McKinney

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 11:19

As memories can't be trusted...

...How soon we forget!

Too true :)


#54 Pink Snail

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 17:42

Yes Allen, you are correct about the changeover time :up: . In 2007 the HFO personnel (Oli & Stuart McCrudden, Mike & Linda Whatley, John Felix (race director), Tony Southgate, and others all started wearing the FIA HFO shirts with their names on :cool: . Mr Ecclestone himself had something to do with endorsing the series because his car is driven by Joaquin Folch and run by Freddy Kumschick (Piquet`s old Brabham Cosworth) :rolleyes: and that year the HFO actually supported the Hungarian GP. The people who run the series work extremely hard to put a calendar together and this years is quite impressive :smoking: . If they hadn`t been in Nogaro at the start of September I would have put my winnign Lottery ticket on them being at Donington because they love it there!! :love: :love:
In my opinion, the Masters and the HFO give very good value for money :up: and I am surprised that the meetings are not more well attended :confused: . Saying that, Monza is always a good turnout because it`s Mauro Panes base for his F1 Storiche operation and he runs a few drivers not least Luciano Quaggio (Rosberg Theodore) and Gianfranco Casoli(Lauda Ferrari) amongst others and the Italians love the cars from that era. Over here we are well represented aswell, just looking at the entry for Monza this month is whetting the appettite for Brands at the start of July!!! :love:

#55 Pink Snail

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Posted 08 June 2010 - 20:50

The Monza race last weekend was won by Katsu Kubota :up: - shot myself in the foot again there because I thought it was this next weekend....DOH!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

#56 EvDelft

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 13:31

Any results pre-1994? Whatever the name was of the Championship? Please? :love: :love: :love:

#57 Allen Brown

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 14:50

Any results pre-1994? Whatever the name was of the Championship? Please? :love: :love: :love:

From 1988 to 1994 it was the HSCC Historic F1 Championship (a total of 48 races mainly in England but with a few overseas races in each of the last three seasons). Prior to 1988 it was just a series of English HSCC races, starting in 1982 with a race at Donington Park:

http://www.oldracing...php?RaceID=W82A

That was followed by four races in 1983, four in 1984, two in 1985, four in 1986 and four in 1987.

I'm trying to collect all the results of these races but 1988 and 1989 are proving particularly difficult.

#58 Pink Snail

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Posted 09 June 2010 - 17:53

In the late 80s early 90s a lot of the races were won by three names that may ring bells - Duncan Dayton, Freddy Kumschick and Bob Berridge. A bit later on Mike Whatley came on the scene and won the Championship in his Ensign N175 (originally driven by various drivers in 1975) in 2002. Mike now scrutineers the cars with Tony Southgate (the Arrows designer). I`ll have to dig deep to see if I can come up with any results....KM

#59 Pink Snail

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 19:52

With the recent confirmation of the sad demise of the Historic Formula One Championship, the only event in the UK this year will be the GP Masters race at the Silverstone Classic. It is indeed sad news that TGP Ltd has effectively stood down as operators of the race format that is known currently as HFO.
I am sure that, in 2014 as the TGP have suggested, the F1 cars will return to the track but only as stand alone races within already established Historic events. It is all well and good to blame the current economy and we all know it isn`t cheap to race one of these lovely cars. However, the grids got so very low in 2012 that `race` did not exactly describe the event in progress. It is a shame that things have degenerated to such low levels when there is so much potential out there.
At present, it is estimated that there are as many as 40 F1 cars on the market. I believe that given the right circumstances, the chance of seeing up to 30-35 cars on an F1 grid is a possibility with a little bit of jiggling about on the calendar and current circuit availability.
What price that a certain Mr Gow of BTCC fame should introduce the Historic F1 cars as support for 6 meetings in the BTCC year in 2014? I have thought this through and the circuits they could race at have all been used by TGP/HFO ...Donington, Brands Hatch (GP), Thruxton, Oulton Park, Snetterton, Silverstone. The open pit policy of the HFO is a massive bonus to the race goer, who will get loads pf value for their money as well as two F1 races in a weekend. Qualifying on Saturday dinnertime with a sprint race in the afternoon to determine grids for Sunday feature race would be a great format. Also the chance for much needed TV space for the guys who race the cars would be just reward for the teams and drivers who manage to get the cars on track.
I have to apologise for my `rant` about the state of a sport I have followed for a long time now, but I am sure that in 2014 the F1 cars could be back as British Historic F1 with 12 races to show. Sponsors would be needed but with the already well backed BTCC and well attended meetings, it really begins to make sense.
As ever, I stand proud to be shot down in flames or be backed up by my friends on TNF. Maybe the people that matter are waiting for comments to come through before they take any drastic action - like killing the Historic F1 scene forever.


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#60 Allen Brown

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 20:14

If it's now history, OldRacingCars.com will be forced to cover it. TGP/HFO 1994-2012 - time to start collecting programmes and results sheets. Anyone able to help? I have a lot of it already but there are plenty of gaps.

#61 Rudernst

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 20:21

With the recent confirmation of the sad demise of the Historic Formula One Championship, the only event in the UK this year will be the GP Masters race at the Silverstone Classic. It is indeed sad news that TGP Ltd has effectively stood down as operators of the race format that is known currently as HFO.
I am sure that, in 2014 as the TGP have suggested, the F1 cars will return to the track but only as stand alone races within already established Historic events. It is all well and good to blame the current economy and we all know it isn`t cheap to race one of these lovely cars. However, the grids got so very low in 2012 that `race` did not exactly describe the event in progress. It is a shame that things have degenerated to such low levels when there is so much potential out there.
At present, it is estimated that there are as many as 40 F1 cars on the market. I believe that given the right circumstances, the chance of seeing up to 30-35 cars on an F1 grid is a possibility with a little bit of jiggling about on the calendar and current circuit availability.
What price that a certain Mr Gow of BTCC fame should introduce the Historic F1 cars as support for 6 meetings in the BTCC year in 2014? I have thought this through and the circuits they could race at have all been used by TGP/HFO ...Donington, Brands Hatch (GP), Thruxton, Oulton Park, Snetterton, Silverstone. The open pit policy of the HFO is a massive bonus to the race goer, who will get loads pf value for their money as well as two F1 races in a weekend. Qualifying on Saturday dinnertime with a sprint race in the afternoon to determine grids for Sunday feature race would be a great format. Also the chance for much needed TV space for the guys who race the cars would be just reward for the teams and drivers who manage to get the cars on track.
I have to apologise for my `rant` about the state of a sport I have followed for a long time now, but I am sure that in 2014 the F1 cars could be back as British Historic F1 with 12 races to show. Sponsors would be needed but with the already well backed BTCC and well attended meetings, it really begins to make sense.
As ever, I stand proud to be shot down in flames or be backed up by my friends on TNF. Maybe the people that matter are waiting for comments to come through before they take any drastic action - like killing the Historic F1 scene forever.



You are wrong, there will be 2 Grand Prix Masters races in the UK this year. Brands Hatch in May and yes, at the Silverstone Classic.
There will also be a races at Zandvoort, the Nurburgring and Spa, of which within easy reach of the UK + 2 races in Spain.

I, as a regular entrant in my March 721 am quite happy with the situation in 2013 and so are most of the others as far as I know.
We prefer to race in one healthy series rather than have 2 less well supported ones.
Entrants voted with their feet and their money - for Grand Prix Masters

Rudolf

Edited by Rudernst, 14 January 2013 - 20:23.


#62 Allen Brown

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 21:13

Rudolf, I've been trying to contact you! I had no reply to my last few emails so suspect they're getting stuck in your spam folder. (Or are yours getting stuck in my spam filter? :/ )

Allen
(allen@oldracingcars.com)

#63 Rudernst

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 15:48

With the recent confirmation of the sad demise of the Historic Formula One Championship, the only event in the UK this year will be the GP Masters race at the Silverstone Classic. It is indeed sad news that TGP Ltd has effectively stood down as operators of the race format that is known currently as HFO.
I am sure that, in 2014 as the TGP have suggested, the F1 cars will return to the track but only as stand alone races within already established Historic events. It is all well and good to blame the current economy and we all know it isn`t cheap to race one of these lovely cars. However, the grids got so very low in 2012 that `race` did not exactly describe the event in progress. It is a shame that things have degenerated to such low levels when there is so much potential out there.
At present, it is estimated that there are as many as 40 F1 cars on the market. I believe that given the right circumstances, the chance of seeing up to 30-35 cars on an F1 grid is a possibility with a little bit of jiggling about on the calendar and current circuit availability.
What price that a certain Mr Gow of BTCC fame should introduce the Historic F1 cars as support for 6 meetings in the BTCC year in 2014? I have thought this through and the circuits they could race at have all been used by TGP/HFO ...Donington, Brands Hatch (GP), Thruxton, Oulton Park, Snetterton, Silverstone. The open pit policy of the HFO is a massive bonus to the race goer, who will get loads pf value for their money as well as two F1 races in a weekend. Qualifying on Saturday dinnertime with a sprint race in the afternoon to determine grids for Sunday feature race would be a great format. Also the chance for much needed TV space for the guys who race the cars would be just reward for the teams and drivers who manage to get the cars on track.
I have to apologise for my `rant` about the state of a sport I have followed for a long time now, but I am sure that in 2014 the F1 cars could be back as British Historic F1 with 12 races to show. Sponsors would be needed but with the already well backed BTCC and well attended meetings, it really begins to make sense.
As ever, I stand proud to be shot down in flames or be backed up by my friends on TNF. Maybe the people that matter are waiting for comments to come through before they take any drastic action - like killing the Historic F1 scene forever.



One more thing...
things have changed.
It is now very very difficult today to find a tracktime for old F1 cars. They sound spectacular but they are very very loud.
"Noisy" days are very limited at most tracks in the UK. Many series (including modern pro series that generate more income) compete for these few noisy days.

Historic F1 racing in the way the HSCC ran it 20 years ago is simply not possible anymore in the UK.
HSCC events are mostly silenced nowadays.

Aaaaand
I value my life and have a responsibility towards my family and business.
I prefer to run my F1 car on FIA grade A tracks (Silverstone in the UK) aaand on selected grade B tracks (Donington and Brands H.)
There is no way that I would race a 3 litre F1 at Oulton Park. OP is one of my favorite tracks but an F3 car is quite enought for kicks at that track.
You may call me a coward now, but that wont change my opinion.

Annnd:
We in GP Masters are all amateurs, in fact we pay the total cost of our racing including the track time. We dont need TV coverage at all as we are not sponsored.

Aaaaaand
At most british clubman races the gate receipts wont even cover the cost of picking the litter up after the spectators have left.
Organisers would actually save money by barring the doors, not that anybody would dream of doing that.
We value the support from die heard race fans.

aaaand
the Master paddock and pitlane are open
and we are happy to answer questions about our cars, but pleaaaaase not 10 minutes before the race

Rudolf

















#64 john aston

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 18:05

Not too much risk of BTCC adding F1 as support- can't detract from the show of front while drive repmobiles farting and banging their way around- and , often as not barging into each other. It's why they have such rivetting spectacles as Ginetta Juniors supporting them ....But an F1 car around Croft- oh yes please...

#65 Pink Snail

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 19:38

Thanks for the feedback Rudolf :up: . I appreciate it very much when you drivers give us your views :love: . The British Historic Fans are, as you know, very enthusiastic. I was forgetting about the Brands Hatch race (silly me!! :rolleyes: ) Whilst I agree with the two series less entrants/one series healthy grids, the HFO has been in a slight decline over the last couple of years, it was not a sudden end! Also, I have my own opinion as to how things have turned out and have to say I am sorry how it has come to this.
The Masters Racing Series offers great value for the paying customer and all told, the atmosphere in the paddock is generally a happy one :cool: . I have `converted` quite a few people over the years I`ve been involved with the Masters/HFO with my charity awarerness with Pink Snail :up: . The idea I had was merely a feeder to see who would respond - Thanks Rudolf.
I know there are restrictions over noise issues in the UK ): and that some of the closer European events make it easy for the UK fans to get to :smoking: . If I had more spare cash I would be with you more often, I never tire of the scene and would love to get more involved - if I didn`t have to work 55 hours a week just to get to 3 meetings a year.
Now that the HFO is suspended for a year we may see a few of the drivers swapping over to the Masters, which would be good. HFO had a habit of `clashing` it`s dates with other high profile meetings, which resulted in depleted grids. We all learn from mistakes, so that may change things in the future.
The first meeting I am hoping to attend is the Oulton Park raceday and then the Donington Historic Festival, maybe Brands and the Silvertstone Classic. The family have now raised about £35,000 for the Jennifer Trust since GP Live in 2007 (Donington) and the awareness campaign motors on with the help of all my racing friends for which I`ll be eternally grateful!! So, thanks for all the feedback up to now, and I hope to see some of you at the meetings. :wave:

#66 Pink Snail

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 19:47

On the subject of F1 cars at UK tracks (John), I wasn`t a UK resident until `86 so can`t remember where the old Aurora FX F1 series raced. It was late 70s/early 80s IIRC (may be wrong) but a revival of that kind of series would be great - only the noise police to get around there - Pah :well: ! Only other way would be to get an F1 extravaganza on a long weekend at somewhere like Donington :cool: , once every couple of years to alternate with the Monaco event, this again give the British fans who cannot afford such events a chance to see the cars.

#67 Thundersport

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 22:19

Pink Snail some good points. I'd like to add that I always felt when Euroboss was at it's height 5-6 years ago (before it became saturated with discarded single spec formula cars) that the BTCC public seeing some well driven 90s V10 F1 cars on slicks would have blown them away! I recall the CSMA meeting at Brands a few years ago which was attended by alot of non motorsport spectators and the cars created a real buzz around the circuit. Sadly alot of races were held in front of a handful of spectators; a meeting at Brands in 2007 had a race Saturday afternoon with a grid of 16 cars and it was criminal there was no one there!

#68 km1164

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 22:46

HFO or TGP as i still call it has been "postponed" for 2013 for various reasons that have resulted in single digit entries considering
6-8 years ago they had 30 car grids with some events with a reserve or 2 but lets look at what has contributed to its current situation

1 The entry fee to do 2 practise /qualifying and 1 race was something like £1-1200k
Masters offer 1 qualifying 2 races for something like £800

2 DFV engines cost a stupid amount of money to buy and maintain
I heard 1 driver has paid £90k for a new motor and fresh rebuild short strokes cost £65k
a rebuild is now £20k ish every 500 miles ( thats 3 events at most) on a short stroke
The organisers have let this get out of hand and they could easily have controlled this by setting rpm limit to 9250 or 9500
This would have stopped the la la £ short stroke engines being created and everyone would have levee playing field on ££ BHP and
engine rebuilds would be 1000miles maybe more and the rebuild costs would probably be £12-15k ish

3 The ridiculas rising cost of buying the cars has not helped matters and then the general running costs of such a car adds a greater burden
Crack testing every 5 years new fuel cells ( if it aint leaking why ft new fuel cell?!) belts extinguishers new tyres per race was the norm when
a control on the tyres used per meeting or even have 6 tyres over 2 meetings
All of this applies for Masters and TGP but having 2 sets of Historic F1 races is not conducive either and on at least 2 occasions they have had
races either 1 week apart or even the same day 2 different countries !!

The TGP/HFO getting into bed with the FIA has also been a financial handicap

Time for organisers to wake up smell the coffee
Time for drivers to sort the rules out keep costs down

#69 Thundersport

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 23:11

Indeed there must be plent of the "Monk" limiters as used in F3000 about which restricted the DFV to 9000RPM.

#70 Peter Morley

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:40

HFO or TGP as i still call it has been "postponed" for 2013 for various reasons that have resulted in single digit entries considering
6-8 years ago they had 30 car grids with some events with a reserve or 2 but lets look at what has contributed to its current situation

1 The entry fee to do 2 practise /qualifying and 1 race was something like £1-1200k
Masters offer 1 qualifying 2 races for something like £800


That's the cost of becoming part of the (self elected) club that is the FIA and becoming a recognised championship.


#71 Peter Morley

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:40

Indeed there must be plent of the "Monk" limiters as used in F3000 about which restricted the DFV to 9000RPM.


But where are they, I'd like one for my 85B F3000???

#72 Pink Snail

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 20:04

Now we are getting some of the real info - things are falling into place :D . Whilst reading the comments I have confirmed some of the doubts I had about the Masters/HFO scene ;) . Yes, I was aware of the costs involved as one of the drivers is a good friend :rolleyes: . I had heard of the FIA championship status causing problems within the structure of the series.
Having up to 60 car/driver combinations out there, grids will be healthy if the cost was regulated and the meetings well attended. I know TV would expand the audience and it is a shame that more of the public do not know of it :cry: . In my travels as a delivery driver around the country, I really punch out the message to a lot of folk who thought that the cars used in the HFO/Masters only went on track for demonstration runs :| .
TGP at it`s height and indeed BOSS had great grids. Go back to the Jordan GP Team`s 10th Anniversary at Donington Park where both series were booming :smoking: . The grids were full and the races fantastic :cool: . Will we ever see the like again, I hope so :up: . I think it would be an idea to chuck in a race on the BTCC calendar (as a taster) to show the BTCC fans what the crack is...and get them interested :kiss: . I know we have 2/3 races a year in the UK but a stand alone domestic series with 6 meetings a year sponsored by someone like Scalextric and Toys R Us would be a start :love: . Get families involved with kiddies attractions and Bob`s your uncle. How long will it be before Chris Evans catches on and has an F1 race at his carfest event....this year`s Carfest North is at Oulton Park....hmmm! :|
Time will tell, I just hope it doesn`t take too long. In the meantime, more ideas and suggestions may get the right people pulling the strings and give us back the good times...ho hum :wave:

#73 Thundersport

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 22:39

But where are they, I'd like one for my 85B F3000???

I'll ask the person who used to have them sitting in a box in the office at Brands.

#74 km1164

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 00:36

Mr Morley
i have monk but why do u need it for your static car unless u are bringing me £35k and taking my dfv with electronic injection away to play with!!
Pink snail
TV is as much use asa chocolate tea pot for TGP F1
who will pay for the bbc itv to come along and film?
you might get satellite tv come and film a couple of races
as for spectators thats a waste of time due to the circuits being so greedy with entrance fee at £15-20 people go elsewhere for their days fun for less $
The spectator should be charged a fiver at most and the circuits will get more feet thru the turnstile to appease the burger / van stall holders

The real issue is entry fees engine costs and greedy people being involved in organising races from circuit owner hire fees to FIA affiliation pushing up entry
fees and people vote with their feet

#75 john aston

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 08:15

Mr Morley
i have monk but why do u need it for your static car unless u are bringing me £35k and taking my dfv with electronic injection away to play with!!
Pink snail
TV is as much use asa chocolate tea pot for TGP F1
who will pay for the bbc itv to come along and film?
you might get satellite tv come and film a couple of races
as for spectators thats a waste of time due to the circuits being so greedy with entrance fee at £15-20 people go elsewhere for their days fun for less $
The spectator should be charged a fiver at most and the circuits will get more feet thru the turnstile to appease the burger / van stall holders

The real issue is entry fees engine costs and greedy people being involved in organising races from circuit owner hire fees to FIA affiliation pushing up entry
fees and people vote with their feet



If you think what it costs to attend even cinema then your fiver charge is wildly ambitious. To take other examples- Rock concerts often £50 + a ticket for the people I have seen recently and as for opera.. a hell of a lot more.I don't mind paying and neither do most enthusiasts as long as there is value- as in lots of races , good access , decent commentary and catering. The Silverstone Classic gets 80,000 for these reasons but typical club meeting can struggle; the racing is often great but let the 4 hour VW Fun Cup type of race be forgotten eh ?

#76 Peter Morley

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 12:41

Mr Morley
i have monk but why do u need it for your static car unless u are bringing me £35k and taking my dfv with electronic injection away to play with!!


KM
No one would want to use a Monk box on a running car unless they were forced to!
Does it come with the official yellow FIA tywraps, non fitment of which led to disqualification at the time... even in those days the FIA were stamping their mark!

Engine is tempting, I'll just check the scratch cards...
....
No not this week.
Will keep it in mind though - current entry levels mean there are more places to go and play with it.

BTW I heard that the Dutch BOSS series were having similar cost problems due to their FIA affiliation.

#77 Pink Snail

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 18:39

Thanks again for the comments guys. On the subject of TV, if the BTCC can get 7 hours coverage on Sunday and 30 minutes was devoted to a race such as TGP then it would be mission accomplished. Price wise, I think Motor Sport gives great value for money to the fans outside of Grand Prix. Where else can fans get close to the action and have all day at the venue for such a small price? Football fans pay silly money to watch 90 minutes of action and don`t get anywhere near the players.
TV coverage just to create interest would be of some help. Trying to keep positive about the situation that we have here, whilst some input is worthy some is also non-productive. The admission prices are about right, the circuits do charge the burger vans a high price but they get their money back and more, although the other type stalls do suffer sometimes. The well attended meetins will be the better ones for TGP/HFO to tag on with, BTCC is well attended and is advertised properly.
The F1 fraternity within Historic Motorsport have to come together and create the spectacle that existed 10 years ago, 30 car grids and 10,000 happy fans on a Sunday cannot be too much to expect...can it? We are expecting to have as many as 13-14,000 people at Donington for the Historic Festival in April paying £25 for a weekend ticket - not bad for it`s third year (£350k on the gate.....not bad). Why want tickets for a fiver - might as well go to Alton Towers or Blackpool Pleasure Beach!!
Once again - cheers for the comments and further snippets of info.