29 replies to this topic

[AAGR]

It took me time for this to sink in, but I had finished reading John Wyer's famous autobiography 'That Certain Sound' before I realised that he had not mentioned Alan Mann Racing at all throughout. Yet it was at this period in Ford and FAVO history that AMR did so much to make the Cobra successful in the World Sports Car Championship, and built several ultra-special lightweight GT40s.

What am I missing, please ?

GRAHAM R

[alansart]

There's an interview with Alan Mann in last months Motorsport.

I don't think Mann and Wyer got on that well with each other.

[Bjorn Kjer]

As far as I know they had nothing to do with each other at the same time combined with Ford.

[Roger Clark]

Alan Mann Racing was engaged to build and run "small" Fords at a time when the main works supported teams were switching to the 7-litre cars. John Wyer had always argued that the lightweight car was the better option and he may have thought that his Ford Advanced Vehicles should have run that programme. The fact that AMR was not successful could have increased his resentment.

He may also have thought that the money Ford spent a few years later on the F3L programme would have been better spent on his GT40s.

A lot of speculation there but I've always thought the the Ford section of Wyer's book was rather defensive about FAVO and his role in it.

[AAGR]

Hhmmm. Maybe we will learn more from Alan's autobiography, which is now with his publishers, and will apparently be on the market later this year ....

[elansprint72]

Hhmmm. Maybe we will learn more from Alan's autobiography, which is now with his publishers, and will apparently be on the market later this year ....

Alan Mann Racing gets very scant mention in John Horsman's "Racing in the Rain" too. Reading between the lines there was some bad feeling by J. Wyer over the refusal by Ford to allow JWAE any DFV engines for the M2 gulf-Mirage, "...since all Cosworth production was reserved for the F1 teams , except for two or three engines set aside for (Len) Bailey's new creation the Ford F3L Prototype Group 6 (Alan Mann Racing) car." This left JWAE scratching around for an engine, they plumped for the BRM V12 "the only commercially-available F1 engine" they looked at and rejected the V12 Gurney-Weslake and the Brabham Repco "which, in retrospect, we should have chosen".

Reading Horseman it is clear that J. Wyer was a somewhat difficult character and it is also astonishing just how much friction there was between JWAE, Ford UK and Ford USA outfits; throw Shelby and Holman Moody into the mix and it is a wonder that the GT40 did anything at all.

I have been looking for a copy of "The Certain Sound" for some years, it seems that it is necessary to take out a mortgage in order to purchase even a battered copy.

Edited by elansprint72, 06 February 2012 - 18:07.

[Glengavel]

I have been looking for a copy of "The Certain Sound" for some years, it seems that it is necessary to take out a mortgage in order to purchase even a battered copy.

Some years ago "That Certain Sound" used to be in all the 'bargain' sections of the motoring bookshop ads in Motor Sport, and I always used to think to myself "must get a copy of that some time". And then all of a sudden...

[longhorn]

[quote name='elansprint72' date='Feb 6 2012, 09:15' post='5510110']
Alan Mann Racing gets very scant mention in John Horsman's "Racing in the Rain" too. Reading between the lines there was some bad feeling by JW over the refusal by Ford to allow JWAE any DFV engines for the M2 gulf-Mirage, "...since all Cosworth production was reserved for the F1 teams , except for two or three engines set aside for (Len) Bailey's new creation the Ford F3L Prototype Group 6 (Alan Mann Racing) car." This left JWAE scratching around for an engine, they plumped for the BRM V12 "the only commercially-available F1 engine" they looked at and rejected the V12 Gurney-Weslake and the Brabham Repco "which, in retrospect, we should have chosen".


I have both the Wyer & Horsman books & I tend to agree that JWAE were displeased not to have received the DFV engines for the Mirage. However, having just read Pritchard's Ford Versus Ferrari, where there are sections describing Alan Mann Racing's efforts, including the F3L, the engines allocated were all well below par & JWAE were probably better off not having them.

[Doug Nye]

Once the Gulf set-up with John Horsman began building DFV-powered sports-prototype cars they quickly learned the downside of the DFV - what was by endurance racing standards simply horrendous vibration. In contrast the Alan Mann F3Ls had very seldom lasted long enough for that to become the decisive problem.

[Red Socks]

The JW in JWAE was John Willment not John Wyer.

[Emery0323]

Alan Mann Racing was engaged to build and run "small" Fords at a time when the main works supported teams were switching to the 7-litre cars. John Wyer had always argued that the lightweight car was the better option and he may have thought that his Ford Advanced Vehicles should have run that programme. The fact that AMR was not successful could have increased his resentment.

He may also have thought that the money Ford spent a few years later on the F3L programme would have been better spent on his GT40s.

I can't remember where I read it (Wyer's book or ?), but I recall reading some quote somewhere that Wyer said something to the effect of "In retrospect, Ford should have let us (JWAE) take over the F3L program" (paraphrase).

It did seem that JW felt that they could have done a better job than AMR on the F3L, although as has been pointed out in this thread, once they got the DFV, they had lots of vibration problems in long-distance races.

Edited by Emery0323, 06 February 2012 - 17:48.

[Roger Clark]

The JW in JWAE was John Willment not John Wyer.

Willment was a director and he suggested the name but I don't think he was heavily involved in the company. Wyer was the major shareholder and the chairman of the company. I doubt whether they ever said what JW stood for, but there is no doubt who was the senior person in the company.

Wyer may have believed that Ford should have let JWAE run the F3L programme, but I think it unlikely that the DFV car would have been more successful than the GT40s in 1968-69.

[elansprint72]

Willment was a director and he suggested the name but I don't think he was heavily involved in the company. Wyer was the major shareholder and the chairman of the company. I doubt whether they ever said what JW stood for, but there is no doubt who was the senior person in the company.

Wyer may have believed that Ford should have let JWAE run the F3L programme, but I think it unlikely that the DFV car would have been more successful than the GT40s in 1968-69.

Horsman says that Willment was brought in by Wyer to provide some financial security; there is no mention of him being involved in the building or racing side of things.

The flat-plane DFV tended to rattle things around and the Weslake engine, whilst smooth, would often not start and if it did it would run on less than all twelve. Not a happy time. I vaguely remember reading about all of this in Motoring News.
It is interesting re-reading all of this again, however, it is always interesting when folks, who were there at the time, all tell different versions of the same story; this illustrates how important it is for journalists not to only talk to one person where many parties are involved. Thus are legends and myths made.

[Red Socks]

John Wyer had made a pigs ear of the GT40 programme in 1965 and as a result was PNG at Ford.It was the hard work by John Willment who persuaded Ford to go back into business with John Willment Automobile Engineering.

[delta44]

This is nothing too do with the original question but I would like to tell you the story of me meeting John Wyer in 1970.My Dad was the truckie for them then and Mr Wyer had heard from Dad that I was mad on motor racing so he summoned me to meet him after work one evening. Now being a very naive 17 year old I just thought he wanted to sign me up as one of the 917 drivers. Funny that, I was a little dissapointed when we got to the factory and I just remember this giant of a man peering down on me with two tickets for the GP at Brands Hatch which he gave me. I then thanked him and asked why he was not going and he just said "what!!! all that noise ,no thanks" he then went back in to his office and me and Dad left.Just as I was driving off Mr Wyer came running after us and I thought Yes! Yes !Yes he does want to sign me up after all.More dissapointment as he then gave me two more tickets for the paddock.
Never mind it was still a very very special meeting.

[Emery0323]

Wyer may have believed that Ford should have let JWAE run the F3L programme, but I think it unlikely that the DFV car would have been more successful than the GT40s in 1968-69.

Agreed, JW's record with the GT40s in 1968-69 speaks for itself. The comment was noteworthy primarily in that it suggested an intramural rivalry / turf battle within the Ford camp, with Wyer feeling he'd been slighted by Ford management. The F3L had so many teething troubles, it would have taken a massive effort to make it a winner!

[Roger Clark]

John Wyer had made a pigs ear of the GT40 programme in 1965 and as a result was PNG at Ford.It was the hard work by John Willment who persuaded Ford to go back into business with John Willment Automobile Engineering.

I hadn't heard that. Could you tell us more?

[RS2000]

There must be an element of mess resulting from different people bidding for Ford money, from both USA and Europe. Walter Hayes can't be accused, I'm sure, of ever having being given total overall control/responsibility.
A bit like Rootes/Chrysler, with people like Alan Fraser and George Bevan dealing direct with Board members rather than through Marcus Chambers and later Des O'Dell.
Stuart Turner's arrival at Ford seems to have ended it. IIRC he says something like "We just didn't understand each other: there was no chemistry" about him and Alan Mann in his book. I'm sure I've seen an Alan Mann quote along the lines "He didn't like me and I didn't like him".

[Doug Nye]

Do we detect a particular interest in Willment within Red Socks' account? As I recall it, the initials 'JW' were especially apt since they conveniently reflected the names of not just one but both principals within that partnership...

Incidentally, it was the poisonous internal politics within the Ford multiple-approach racing programme that so disaffected Phil Hill that he eagerly signed-up with Jim Hall and Chaparral Cars for 1966. He still remained very firm friends with John Wyer until the latter passed away. Old 'Death Ray' had sympathised with his decision.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 07 February 2012 - 22:22.

[arttidesco]

Incidentally, it was the poisonous internal politics within the Ford multiple-approach racing programme that so disaffected Phil Hill that he eagerly signed-up with Jim Hall and Chaparral Cars for 1966. He still remained very firm friends with John Wyer until the latter passed away. Old 'Death Ray' had sympathised with his decision.

DCN

All of this was way before my time, but they do say hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, perhaps Mr Fords fury at being scorned by Mr Ferrari poisoned the whole of Fords Le Mans enterprise right from the start.

If I have interpreted Ford's Le Mans program correctly Ford didn't set out to win Le Mans they set out to humiliate Ferrari, IMHO the latter objective with a 'throw all the money it takes' approach and 'stock block dogma' blinded Ford from a rational approach that might have achieved the same outcome in the long run.

I believe it cost Ford just £100,000 pounds to dominate Formula One from 1968 to 1982 has anyone ever calculated how much it cost Ford to win Le Mans four times ?

[Roger Clark]

I believe it cost Ford just £100,000 pounds to dominate Formula One from 1968 to 1982 has anyone ever calculated how much it cost Ford to win Le Mans four times ?

John Wyer said $2.2m in 1964, $4.5m in 1965 and $7m in both 1966 and 1967. Ford weren't really sponsors of the JWAE programme but they did provide an operating subsidy for the support of GT40 private owners. The sums involved were trivial compared with 1964-67.

I have never seen any evidence, but I would be very surprised if the £100k paid to Cosworth was Ford's only expenditure on Formula One in the late 60s. The Tyrrells weren't the same colour as the Ford badge by coincidence.

[arttidesco]

John Wyer said $2.2m in 1964, $4.5m in 1965 and $7m in both 1966 and 1967. Ford weren't really sponsors of the JWAE programme but they did provide an operating subsidy for the support of GT40 private owners. The sums involved were trivial compared with 1964-67.

I have never seen any evidence, but I would be very surprised if the £100k paid to Cosworth was Ford's only expenditure on Formula One in the late 60s. The Tyrrells weren't the same colour as the Ford badge by coincidence.

Wow ! That's $ twenty million in four years ! No wonder the pressure was on for anyone taking Henry's Benjamins, competition for them was probably not conducive to friendly relations between the rival organisations, let alone the various Ford departments administering them !

I'd always wondered about the shade of blue chosen by Tyrrell, in 1973, might have been '74 I remember having a press hand out or similar suggesting Tyrrell were working with an annual budget of a piffling £ 600 k in those times probably less than $1.2 million which presumably included a hefty sum of French Francs from Elf ?

Dividing the 20 million Ford spent on Le Mans by one years Tyrrell budget is 16 teams for a year or 16 years of sponsorship for Tyrrell, seems a way over the odds price to have paid for 4 Le Mans victories. Does anyone have any data on what sort of budgets Porsche or Ferrari might have been spending around the '64 to '67 period ?

[Tmeranda]

Wow ! That's $ twenty million in four years ! No wonder the pressure was on for anyone taking Henry's Benjamins, competition for them was probably not conducive to friendly relations between the rival organisations, let alone the various Ford departments administering them !

I'd always wondered about the shade of blue chosen by Tyrrell, in 1973, might have been '74 I remember having a press hand out or similar suggesting Tyrrell were working with an annual budget of a piffling £ 600 k in those times probably less than $1.2 million which presumably included a hefty sum of French Francs from Elf ?

Dividing the 20 million Ford spent on Le Mans by one years Tyrrell budget is 16 teams for a year or 16 years of sponsorship for Tyrrell, seems a way over the odds price to have paid for 4 Le Mans victories. Does anyone have any data on what sort of budgets Porsche or Ferrari might have been spending around the '64 to '67 period ?

one of the reasons that the Porsche family got tossed out of the company was that Ferry found out F. Piech spent about 15% of the firms profit on Le Mans.

[arttidesco]

one of the reasons that the Porsche family got tossed out of the company was that Ferry found out F. Piech spent about 15% of the firms profit on Le Mans.

Any idea what kind of sums we are talking about ?

[Tmeranda]

Any idea what kind of sums we are talking about ?

look it up this evening.

[Tmeranda]

Any idea what kind of sums we are talking about ?

look it up this evening.

[elansprint72]

I do wish that people would use their real names on this forum.

[Doug Nye]

Well I would - but for the fact mine sounds too silly...

DCN

[JacnGille]

Well I would - but for the fact mine sounds too silly...

DCN

[P0wderf1nger]

Hhmmm. Maybe we will learn more from Alan's autobiography, which is now with his publishers, and will apparently be on the market later this year ....

I very much look forward to reading that. I wonder if he'll cover the events of April '68?

Several writers have referred to Jim Clark being booked to drive an Alan Mann F3L at Brands on 7 April, but (words to the effect of...) Clark, offended by the lack of confirmation, elected instead to drive the Lotus 48 at Hockenheim. Interestingly, I've never read anything about Hill being double-booked that day. Nor have I ever sensed in any other race that Clark could 'elect' to drive for Chapman.

This chapter wasn't covered in the Motor Sport article, and I have heard that Mann has not wanted to speak about it. I wonder whether he will present his version of events in his autobiography?

Rgds

Paul