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Oldest driver line-up?


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#1 HistoryFan

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 22:01

Karthikeyan und De La Rosa at HRT are together 76 years old. That's very old for today, but not in history.

We have 89 years at Mercedes 1955 (Kling, Fangio) and 91 years at André Testut Maserati (Louis Chiron, André Testut)

Any more older than 76?
When was the last line-up that was older than the HRT line-up for 2012.

of course only two drivers per team, sometimes teams had more than two.

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#2 ensign14

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 22:10

Perming 2 from 3, Farina and Fagioli in 1950 added to 96...

#3 garoidb

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 22:11

Karthikeyan und De La Rosa at HRT are together 76 years old. That's very old for today, but not in history.

We have 89 years at Mercedes 1955 (Kling, Fangio) and 91 years at André Testut Maserati (Louis Chiron, André Testut)

Any more older than 76?
When was the last line-up that was older than the HRT line-up for 2012.
of course only two drivers per team, sometimes teams had more than two.


What about Laffite and Arnoux at Ligier in 1986? Arnoux would have been 37 at the start of the season and Laffite was 42. Hence a total of 79.

Edited by garoidb, 05 February 2012 - 22:12.


#4 D-Type

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 22:35

You can't just pick the two oldest drivers from a multi-driver team and call them the team! For example in 1955 Stirling Moss drove more races for Mercedes Benz than Kling so should be the other half of your pair. Hermann, Taruffi and Simon also drove for the team so should be included somewhere. You should really work on the average age in order to include the full team. Possibly a weighted average based on number of starts would be more correct statistically.

Andre Testut Maserati was not a team. Andre Testut was a Monagesque private owner and when he failed to qualify for the Monaco GP fellow Monagesque Louis Chiron simply put in a few practice laps to test the car with no intention of racing.

On the original question, how about Alfa Romeo in 1950 with Farina, Fangio, and Fagioli as regular drivers. An average age of 45 at mid year?

Edited by D-Type, 08 February 2012 - 20:08.


#5 Allan Lupton

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 23:37

These, like many of the statistics that are dragged into this forum, are the sort of statistics that are used as a drunk uses a lamppost, more for support than for illumination.

#6 packapoo

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 00:43

Until they actually 'line up' on the grid, they're only a potential. :confused:

#7 midgrid

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 00:49

Jean Alesi and Johnny Herbert reached the 76 mark whilst racing for Sauber in 1998.

#8 jwoodmor

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 03:33

Graham Hill and Rolf Stommelen in 1975 had a combined age of 78
Mansell and Patrese in 1992 had a combined age of 77

If you extend outside of Grand Prix racing, then more pairings become available - Mansell and Andretti at Newman-Haas in 1993 had a combined age of 93

Edited by jwoodmor, 06 February 2012 - 03:38.


#9 Tim Murray

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 06:15

Jean Alesi and Johnny Herbert reached the 76 mark whilst racing for Sauber in 1998.

:confused: Both men turned 34 in 1998.

Graham Hill and Rolf Stommelen in 1975 had a combined age of 78

When they were team mates in early 1975 Hill was 46 and Stommelen 31, so 77 in combination.

#10 HistoryFan

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 09:45

So the last one older than the HRT line-up was 1992 at Williams I think.

#11 kayemod

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 14:33

So the last one older than the HRT line-up was 1992 at Williams I think.


I'm still wondering why anyone would want to know this, what's interesting about it?

#12 bradbury west

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 14:46

Whilst I remain sceptical about the value of a thread such as this, if we are talking numbers then I must submit David Piper and Il Grande John Surtees in David's 250LM at one of the early, 2000?, Revivals with ages in excess of 135 IIRC. It was at that one where JS put in a masterclass demo of qualifying in the 250LM with barely a soul on the track in the final 15 mins of practice on the Saturday, like he had never been away, offering a superb example of the term maestro. The bodylanguage and balance of that car on the limit was an utter joy to behold. I watched from the Woodcote stand.
That race was where JS had apparently forgotten the best technique for a standing start and DP said 6k on the clock and drop the clutch, so he did, and flew away like a rocket.
It was DCN in the commentary box who pointed out their combined ages, which might have explained the less than swift changeover, other things notwithstanding.
Roger Lund

#13 midgrid

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 15:42

:confused: Both men turned 34 in 1998.


Oops! My mistake. :blush:


#14 D-Type

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 15:53

I'm still wondering why anyone would want to know this, what's interesting about it?

Ours not to ask the reason why ...

Maybe a pub discussion: youngest pairing? -> oldest pairing? -> I'll ask the forum.

#15 Rob G

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 18:14

I'm still wondering why anyone would want to know this, what's interesting about it?

Why not? I think in a sport where the young guns are constantly trying to establish themselves while the old guard are trying to keep racing for as long as they can before getting pushed aside, it's an interesting little bit of trivia. Do teams go with sage experience, the next hotshot, or a mix?

#16 ensign14

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 18:15

Do teams go with sage experience...

If they did, that chef that went on the Mille Miglia Retro would suddenly be in demand.

#17 ryan86

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 21:37

I'd imagine the youngest line up would be the Toro Rosso line up in Hungary 09, which was 40 years, 3 months old at that race. Had Schumacher replaced Massa he would have been 4 months older than the combined team. Unfortunately by the time Melbourne came in 2010 the TR boys were older.

Edited by ryan86, 07 February 2012 - 02:42.


#18 HistoryFan

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 19:50

So we have this now:


1986: Ligier (René Arnoux, Jacques Laffite): 79
1975: Hill (Graham Hill, Rolf Stommelen): 77
1992: Williams (Nigel Mansell, Riccardo Patrese): 77

Any more over 75?


#19 Tim Murray

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 21:42

1974: Hill (45) & Edwards (31) = 76
1979: Andretti (39) & Reutemann (37) = 76

Arnoux turned 38 on 2-Jul-86, so for their last two races as a team Arnoux and Laffite had an age sum of 80.

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#20 Gary Davies

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 22:01

This is cheating a bit but I have warm memories of Pete Lovely in his Lotus 49 and Jack Brabham in a McLaren-BRM going at it hammer and tongs in the so called 'Formula Adelaide' race in April 1999.

The two lads had a combined age of 146!


#21 HistoryFan

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 22:02

Never heard about Formula Adelaide...

#22 Gary Davies

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 22:19

Never heard about Formula Adelaide...


Details here.

#23 ryan86

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 23:00

Alliot and Brundle were a combined 75 for their one race together in 1994, as were Damon Hill and Mansell later on in the year. Tambay and Jones were a combined 76 in 1986.

#24 HistoryFan

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 13:50

Thank you. So we have this list;


1986: Ligier (René Arnoux, Jacques Laffite): 79
1975: Hill (Graham Hill, Rolf Stommelen): 77
1992: Williams (Nigel Mansell, Riccardo Patrese): 77
1979: Williams (Mario Andretti, Carlos Reutemann): 76
1986: Haas (Alan Jones, Patrick Tambay): 76
1994: McLaren (Martin Brundle, Philippe Alliot): 75
1994: Williams (Nigel Mansell, Damon Hill): 75

#25 Tim Murray

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 15:07

You've missed Hill and Edwards in 1974. As I also said above, Arnoux and Laffite's highest total is 80, not 79.

#26 D-Type

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 16:35

You've missed Hill and Edwards in 1974. As I also said above, Arnoux and Laffite's highest total is 80, not 79.

It depends on the date you measure the ages: the beginning of the year (January 1st), beginning of the racing season (ie firstrace) mid year (June 30th) or after one or both of the drivers' birthdays or the end of the year (31st December)? A max difference of 1 year on each age giving a maximum of 2 years on the total.

To illustrate this. Suppose you have two drivers whose birthdays are 15 February 1991 and 20 December 1981, then

at 1/1/2012 the sum will be 50,
on 15/2/2012 it will be 51,
at the first race it will be 51,
at mid-year, 30/6/2012, it will be 51,
at 20/12/2012 it will be 52, and
at the end of the year, 31/12/2012 it will be 52.

If you simply say "2012-1991 = 21 and 2012-1981 = 31 , you'll get a total of 52 which is wrong most of the time.

With different birthdays you'll get a different set of numbers but the problem will be the same.

Edited by D-Type, 09 February 2012 - 17:44.


#27 ryan86

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 19:22

With any case I've looked at, I've been looking at their age on their last race together.

#28 Tim Murray

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 19:38

Me too. Whilst agreeing with everything Duncan has said, I think it has to be the highest age sum possible that counts in this exercise.

#29 D-Type

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 20:16

Yes, but...

I think our friend was inspired by the current line up of Karthikeyan and DeLa Rosa at HRT, which implies ages at the start of the season.



#30 ryan86

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 20:25

Given the past few years, it may be too much to expect HRT to have the same drivers at the end.

#31 Tim Murray

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 20:27

Karthikeyan was born in January and de la Rosa in February, so their (whole-year) ages/age sum won't change during the course of the season.

Edited by Tim Murray, 09 February 2012 - 20:28.


#32 LittleChris

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 22:10

Yes, but...

I think our friend was inspired by the current line up of Karthikeyan and DeLa Rosa at HRT, which implies ages at the start of the season.


Can't say that line up inspires me :p

#33 axlex

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 19:02

Andre Testut Maserati was not a team. Andre Testut was a Monagesque private owner and when he failed to qualify for the Monaco GP fellow Monagesque Louis Chiron simply put in a few practice laps to test the car with no intention of racing.


Jus a little precision to tell that André Testut was not Monegasque. He's french (from Lyon) but have a monegasque license, so it's difficult to tell he's french or monegasque on a motorsport's point of view...  ;)

#34 D-Type

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 19:25

Interesting. The reference books (Higham and Small) list him as Monagesque but born in Lyon, France.
How did he come to have a Monagesque licence? Living/working in Monaco? Monagesque parentage? Proximity of Monaco to Lyon making easier to apply there instead of Paris?

#35 axlex

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 19:54

André Testud was a very good friend of Louis Chiron. They frequently ran against each other in Hillclimb races like the Mont-Ventoux (the favorite one of A.Testut) and the Mont-Dore, for examples.
After his official retirment, Louis Chiron had the idea to race a Formula 1 car in the colors of Monaco during his national Grand Prix. He convice André Testut and the Prince Rainier III and it's why André Testut obtain his licence from Monaco.;)

(excuse me for my approximative english)

#36 sramoa

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 20:07

Axlex!Do you have any more info for Mr.Testut or have a photo for him?

#37 D-Type

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 20:11

André Testud was a very good friend of Louis Chiron. They frequently ran against each other in Hillclimb races like the Mont-Ventoux (the favorite one of A.Testut) and the Mont-Dore, for examples.
After his official retirment, Louis Chiron had the idea to race a Formula 1 car in the colors of Monaco during his national Grand Prix. He convice André Testut and the Prince Rainier III and it's why André Testut obtain his licence from Monaco.;)

(excuse me for my approximative english)

Thank you for the explanation.

Votre Anglais: C'est meilleur que mon Francais! Un fois, le matre m'a dit: "Duncan, vous parlez Francais comme une vache Espagnole" -
(That week's vocabulary list included farm animals and nationalities hence his choice of comment)

#38 axlex

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 20:36

Axlex!Do you have any more info for Mr.Testut or have a photo for him?


I had a long telephone conversation with Ms. Testut few years ago so I think I'm able to give you more info about him. So if you have any question, tell me !
But sorry, for the photo, André Testut is still missing in my collection... :(

Duncan, your french is almost perfect ! :)

Edited by axlex, 13 August 2012 - 20:58.