67 replies to this topic

[f1steveuk]

Has anyone ever seen, any pictorial renditions of the "proposed" BRM six wheeler, supposedly to be driven by Jean Pierre-Jarier, or was it just a verbal project?

[Allen Brown]

Never heard of it.

[larryd]

Never heard of it.

Come on, Doug - where are you??

[MCS]

Steve, somebody must be seriously pulling your leg here...

[Vitesse2]

Steve, somebody must be seriously pulling your leg here...

Yeah, my immediate thought was an Autospurt or Muttering Snooze April Fool.

[E1pix]

That does sound familiar in my memory banks...

http://8w.forix.com/...neverraced.html

http://8w.forix.com/...-sixwheeler.jpg

[rallen]

I thought a static one was built just to attract sponsorship but was nothing more than just a dummy?

[kayemod]

Has anyone ever seen, any pictorial renditions of the "proposed" BRM six wheeler, supposedly to be driven by Jean Pierre-Jarier, or was it just a verbal project?

Would it have been an 0-6-0 d'you think? That could have been a real 'Stanley steamer'.

[arttidesco]

That does sound familiar in my memory banks...

http://8w.forix.com/...neverraced.html

Every time I look at that page I learn something new, six wheel BRM not withstanding, this time it was Jarrier in a one off drive in a Ligier in '77 and how about the ground effects BRM P142 of 1969 !

Now if they had offered the P142 to JP-J in '77 history might have been a very different kettle of squid

[kayemod]

Now if they had offered the P142 to JP-J in '77 history might have been a very different kettle of squid

Not too sure about that, Peter Wright held onto that model when he left BRM, and it was all we had to play with when setting up the SM wind tunnel. It was tested fairly thoroughly, and the general consensus was that it wouldn't have been very effective. It was Chapman himself who spotted the fundamental flaws in the concept, and steered Peter towards the successful Lotus 78, which worked along quite different lines.

[arttidesco]

Not too sure about that, Peter Wright held onto that model when he left BRM, and it was all we had to play with when setting up the SM wind tunnel. It was tested fairly thoroughly, and the general consensus was that it wouldn't have been very effective. It was Chapman himself who spotted the fundamental flaws in the concept, and steered Peter towards the successful Lotus 78, which worked along quite different lines.

Thanks for setting the record straight

[dolomite]

That does sound familiar in my memory banks...

http://8w.forix.com/...neverraced.html

http://8w.forix.com/...-sixwheeler.jpg

That looks like something from 'Private Ear'....

[Doug Nye]

Steamer being the operative word...

DCN

[E1pix]

A bit OT, but since we're talking about an extra pair of wheels...

Did the March 6-wheeler ever compete?

[kayemod]

Thanks for setting the record straight

Chapman and Wright had diametrically opposed aims where the idea of aerodynamics and ground effect were concerned. Peter's panacea was a low-drag car that had just adequate cornering grip but was blindingly fast down the straight, something that his BRM 'wing car' might have achieved. With years of experience and a finely developed racer's brain, Chapman reasoned that a car that had the opposition beaten into, around, and out of corners, wasn't going to be passed on the straight. History of course, tells us who had the right idea, and once ACBC had steered Peter in the right direction, the result was the Lotus 78.

Edited by kayemod, 07 February 2012 - 10:01.

[arttidesco]

A bit OT, but since we're talking about an extra pair of wheels...

Did the March 6-wheeler ever compete?

Only solo in the hands of Roy Lane on the hills E1, IIRC he did between four and six events but that is not gospel, I also recall he might have won at least once but I stand to be corrected.

[Stephen W]

Only solo in the hands of Roy Lane on the hills E1, IIRC he did between four and six events but that is not gospel, I also recall he might have won at least once but I stand to be corrected.

Roy Lane used the 6-wheel March he assembled in the first FOUR rounds of the British Hillclimb Championship in 1979. His record was far from impressive (Loton in April DNF; Prescott in May 2nd; Harewood in May 6th and Barbon in May 2nd).

[arttidesco]

Roy Lane used the 6-wheel March he assembled in the first FOUR rounds of the British Hillclimb Championship in 1979. His record was far from impressive (Loton in April DNF; Prescott in May 2nd; Harewood in May 6th and Barbon in May 2nd).

Stand corrected Stephen

Did Roy win in the same car with 4 wheel spec ?

Edited by arttidesco, 07 February 2012 - 10:00.

[Stephen W]

Roy Lane used the 6-wheel March he assembled in the first FOUR rounds of the British Hillclimb Championship in 1979. His record was far from impressive (Loton in April DNF; Prescott in May 2nd; Harewood in May 6th and Barbon in May 2nd).

Ooops! Sorry but it was the first FIVE rounds which included Wiscombe Park in March where Lane actually won in the 6 wheel March!

Stand corrected Stephen

Did Roy win in the same car with 4 wheel spec ?

After conversion back to 4 wheel spec Lane had a quiet year finishing only fourth overall in the British Hillclimb Championship. His only win that year was at Wiscombe when it ran in 6 wheel guise!

[Tim Murray]

(As I see Steve now agrees) Roy Lane in the March six-wheeler definitely won the first round of the 1979 RAC British Hillclimb Championship at Wiscombe Park on 1st April. He followed this up the following weekend by winning the first round of the Guyson/BARC Championship at Prescott. Both of these were run in damp conditions. After that, as Steve says, the car was less successful, suffering various problems associated with the six-wheel layout, and the car then reverted to four wheels for the rest of the year.

[arttidesco]

Ooops! Sorry but it was the first FIVE rounds which included Wiscombe Park in March where Lane actually won in the 6 wheel March!


After conversion back to 4 wheel spec Lane had a quiet year finishing only fourth overall in the British Hillclimb Championship. His only win that year was at Wiscombe when it ran in 6 wheel guise!

Afraid I no longer have the copies of Autosport to check but I thought I recalled Roy winning at least the once on six wheels.

[elansprint72]

Would it have been an 0-6-0 d'you think? That could have been a real 'Stanley steamer'.

2-4-0, Shirley? It would have finished up at Barry Island anyway.

[kayemod]

2-4-0, Shirley? It would have finished up at Barry Island anyway.

I was thinking more along the lines of a tank engine, a shunter...

[simonlewisbooks]

Roy Lane's win at Prescott in the 6 wheeler is significant for me, it was the first hillclimb event I ever attended and I was instantly hooked!

30+ years on I'm at the same venue every meeting plying my trade and enjoying the ambience of the place. Still hooked.

[f1steveuk]

The plot thins!

I have a picture somehwere of a BRM, cobbled with aero' section sidepods, but lacking endplates and skirts, and Peter Wright's wing shaped add ons for the March 701 illustrate his thinking. I have interviewed Peter a couple of times, and he told me he had worked out the sideplate and skirt element of ground effect (although he refered to it as "venturi effect") before Colin Chapman became involved, when the wind tunnel model's suspension collapsed and the tunnel figures shot up.

I have heard mention of a full size mock up, but also that a dedicated tub was produced at BRM for the six wheeler, which is why I wondered if even a sketch escaped of the idea, but my feeling was that as they were on the decline, it might have been a bit over ambitious!

[arttidesco]

The plot thins!

That's Private Ear for you !

I have a picture somehwere of a BRM, cobbled with aero' section sidepods, but lacking endplates and skirts, and Peter Wright's wing shaped add ons for the March 701 illustrate his thinking. I have interviewed Peter a couple of times, and he told me he had worked out the sideplate and skirt element of ground effect (although he refered to it as "venturi effect") before Colin Chapman became involved, when the wind tunnel model's suspension collapsed and the tunnel figures shot up.

Love to see anything you can put in the public domain on the P142 over and above whats on 8W/Forix

I have heard mention of a full size mock up, but also that a dedicated tub was produced at BRM for the six wheeler, .... it might have been a bit over ambitious!

Is that a cue for a Tom Jones number ?

[kayemod]

I have interviewed Peter a couple of times, and he told me he had worked out the sideplate and skirt element of ground effect (although he refered to it as "venturi effect") before Colin Chapman became involved, when the wind tunnel model's suspension collapsed and the tunnel figures shot up.

I still have my doubts about some of that, and of course The Great Man is no longer around to give us his version.

The BRM model had an upswept rear underbody, but it never had any suggestion of endplates or skirts, nor was any such thing discussed, I know, I did all the wind tunnel modelmaking.

Most of my time at Lotus was spent developing the VARI process, Vacuum-assisted Resin Injection, by means of which all Lotus bodies and even large boat hulls were eventually produced. I had discussions with Colin Chapman on a regular basis about high and low pressure areas and seals to contain them, so ACBC was well versed in all the theory, he brought Hazel's 350SL in to work to demonstrate the efficient door seals, and sent me round to East Carleton Manor to examine the seals around his front door. Peter joined Lotus from Specialised Mouldings shortly after me, and did some further work on the VARI system, but if he's referring to wind tunnel models with suspension and skirts, he must be talking about work he carried out at Lotus under Chapman, in that period he was involved with everything that went on at Team on a daily basis. I'm not trying to talk down Peter's contribution at all, but I know that Chapman was thinking along ground effect lines long before PW became a Lotus employee.

[f1steveuk]

I still have my doubts about some of that, and of course The Great Man is no longer around to give us his version.

The BRM model had an upswept rear underbody, but it never had any suggestion of endplates or skirts, nor was any such thing discussed, I know, I did all the wind tunnel modelmaking.

Most of my time at Lotus was spent developing the VARI process, Vacuum-assisted Resin Injection, by means of which all Lotus bodies and even large boat hulls were eventually produced. I had discussions with Colin Chapman on a regular basis about high and low pressure areas and seals to contain them, so ACBC was well versed in all the theory, he brought Hazel's 350SL in to work to demonstrate the efficient door seals, and sent me round to East Carleton Manor to examine the seals around his front door. Peter joined Lotus from Specialised Mouldings shortly after me, and did some further work on the VARI system, but if he's referring to wind tunnel models with suspension and skirts, he must be talking about work he carried out at Lotus under Chapman, in that period he was involved with everything that went on at Team on a daily basis. I'm not trying to talk down Peter's contribution at all, but I know that Chapman was thinking along ground effect lines long before PW became a Lotus employee.

I'm fairly certain Peter said the collapsing suspension piece of serendipity happened in the Cranfield tunnel, if that helps date it, but I have to agree, ACBC was probably going to get there on his own. By then the model had full length sidepods, and end plates, but one that didn't touch the ground, it was when the model suspension bent, the endplates touched the tunnel floor, then the problem was what to seal the gap with, although as we know now, first brushes, then rigid skirts.

[E1pix]

Sorry to go OT, but Thanks for the info on the March, Guys.

Edited by E1pix, 07 February 2012 - 13:38.

[arttidesco]

Sorry to go OT....

It's all part of the fun of playing Mornington Crescent to TNF rules

[f1steveuk]

OT, but still about a BRM.

There were cars that as soon as they appeared you realized they were born obsolete; notwithstanding I liked them a lot.

The P207 is one of those. A brick on the track, yet strangely attractive, as if you knew it was the last of a kind, that an altogether type of cars were about to be unleashed.

Another one was the Tyrrell 008, which furthermore not just looked like the last of a kind, but also an anticlimax to the previous six-wheeler model, the novelty it represented and didn't really materialize.

Unless of course the 008 had been built how it had been designed to be built, with a different form of £ground effect"!

[Sisyphus]

Has anyone ever seen, any pictorial renditions of the "proposed" BRM six wheeler, supposedly to be driven by Jean Pierre-Jarier, or was it just a verbal project?

Surely 6 wheels would not have been enough complexity and that 8 would be the minimum to make it a worthwhile project for BRM...

[simonlewisbooks]

Surely 6 wheels would not have been enough complexity and that 8 would be the minimum to make it a worthwhile project for BRM...;)

[MCS]

OT, but still about a BRM.

There were cars that as soon as they appeared you realized they were born obsolete; notwithstanding I liked them a lot.

The P207 is one of those. A brick on the track, yet strangely attractive, as if you knew it was the last of a kind, that an altogether type of cars were about to be unleashed.

I just think this is such a funny, withering post – it makes me laugh out loud!

Surely 6 wheels would not have been enough complexity and that 8 would be the minimum to make it a worthwhile project for BRM...;)

Again, very funny!!

[arttidesco]

Surely 6 wheels would not have been enough complexity and that 8 would be the minimum to make it a worthwhile project for BRM...;)

Now your stepping into 12 wheel gas turbine powered Lion territory last visited 01/04/80 !

[E1pix]

Surely 6 wheels would not have been enough complexity and that 8 would be the minimum to make it a worthwhile project for BRM...;)

TRUE!

[Doug Nye]

By that stage they might not have been round, either...

DCN

[arttidesco]

By that stage they might not have been round, either...

DCN

I suppose if any Grand Prix team was ever going to set out to reinvent the the wheel ....

[eldougo]

Cheeky bugger having a GO at( West Ham).

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Edited by eldougo, 09 February 2012 - 08:59.

[Repco22]

Cheeky bugger having a GO at( West Ham).

QPR RULES! OK? [ or so the graffiti said when I lived in Kilburn.] Hi Doug!

[LittleChris]

Cheeky bugger having a GO at( West Ham).

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

well said Doug especially as we've just signed 3 young strikers with loads of potential ( even if one is a bit of a headcase....... ) some 35 years later

[arttidesco]

Cheeky bugger having a GO at( West Ham).

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

IIRC 'we' had two FA Cup victories around this time

[Doug Nye]

FA? Isn't that a body rather like the FIA - only not half so bright, dynamic, on-the-ball, up-to-date and competent?

DCN

[LittleChris]

IIRC 'we' had two FA Cup victories around this time

1975 and 1980 ( last non top tier team to win the FA Cup ) though to be fair we had to rely on a midfielder ( Brooking ) rather than a stiker to score in the 1980 final Plus ca change ........

[DogEarred]

FA? Isn't that a body rather like the FIA - only not half so bright, dynamic, on-the-ball, up-to-date and competent?

DCN

Can you just imagine the FIA running football?

They would make the offside rule look like child's play......

Their first rule would be to put a flat surface on the ball for sponsors' logos...

Edited by DogEarred, 09 February 2012 - 12:10.

[LittleChris]

As well as having Herman Tilke redesign all of the pitches with even wider run off areas than already exist to keep the supporters away from the precious combatants

[kayemod]

Oi you lot! First rule of TNF, no mention of football (whatever that is...)

[David Beard]

Oi you lot! First rule of TNF, no mention of football (whatever that is...)

[f1steveuk]

Football? I watched what I can best be described as International Ball Chasing the other day, is that it?


Back on track I have been promised a picture of said BRM six wheeler tub, though from the description I think I'm about to see a P201.

[DogEarred]

Oi you lot! First rule of TNF, no mention of football (whatever that is...)

Sorry Kayemod. Won't mention it again.

But the FIA would probably rename it Formula Balls anyway. Which, come to think of it would be a better name for Formula one, these days...

Edited by DogEarred, 09 February 2012 - 14:44.