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Alonso vs Massa 2012


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#1 kosmos

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 05:25

This topic it's here to talk about 2012 season, testing, races, qualifying, standings, driving styles and everything related to their battle on the track.

This topic it's not for:

-2010 team orders discussion.
-Santander paranoia.
-Trolling.
-Your own hate/dislike to any of the drivers.

Please respect the people that want to talk in a civil way about both drivers. :)

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#2 slideways

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 06:18

I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict an Alonso victory.

#3 Mastah

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 06:22

Very bold prediction, slideways.

Mine - Fred will trash Felipe once again. There will be very few qualis and even less races when Felipe will beat Fernando.

#4 Watkins74

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 12:40

Massa isn't going to beat Alonso over the long haul but I hope he has a good season.

Edited by Watkins74, 07 February 2012 - 12:40.


#5 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 12:44

Alonso beats Massa this season. But I hope Massa has a good year!

#6 bub

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 12:46

Massa to outqualify Alonso at 1st race.

#7 MP422

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 13:01

Who's Massa ?

#8 4L3X

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 19:21

If Ferrari dominates Massa will win here and there (enough to get another year/good ride next year), but Alonso will be WDC.

#9 Seanspeed

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 21:11

But I hope Massa has a good year!

Same. Ferrari are really gonna need him to.

#10 ClockworkRacing

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 22:54

I think if the car proves to be not so good,Fernando might lose his cool and Felipe takes it,just a hunch tough

Edited by ClockworkRacing, 07 February 2012 - 22:54.


#11 Mandzipop

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 23:00

I hope Massa picks up his game otherwise this might be the shortest driver vs driver thread (maybe Seb vs Mark might beat it who knows).  ;)

#12 Anomnader

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 23:11

Depends if he turns up renewed or his confidence shot. I think Ferrari have now placed so much pressure on him that it'll be very hard for him.

#13 PretentiousBread

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 23:15

I remember he equivilent 2010 threads about this and myself predicting Massa would give Alonso a really hard time - seems like a decade ago. It's staggering how much Felipe has regressed since 2009, sad really.

#14 AlanWake

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 09:16

I think if the car proves to be not so good,Fernando might lose his cool and Felipe takes it,just a hunch tough


Like the last year, right? :p I think the opposite. If the car isn't good enough, I expect Fernando beats Massa easily again, because I think FA is more capable to extract performance from a car which isn't good enough than Felipe, but if the car is dominant, then I expect a close fight between them. We will see.

#15 morals

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 09:38

Like the last year, right? :p I think the opposite. If the car isn't good enough, I expect Fernando beats Massa easily again, because I think FA is more capable to extract performance from a car which isn't good enough than Felipe, but if the car is dominant, then I expect a close fight between them. We will see.


I agree, most of Massa chances of making a good season rest upon the car being good

#16 Jejking

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 10:01

Depends if he turns up renewed or his confidence shot. I think Ferrari have now placed so much pressure on him that it'll be very hard for him.

Well, he already knows what to do this year. His confidence was blasted anyway, on qualifying laps he can make the difference but reality strikes again, over 300km he often struggles against Alonso simply because he isn't in the same league. BLASPHEMY! Fernando is dragging a hopeless car along and manages to extract the most out of it and Felipe, I think he just doesn't manage to do the same over and over again. Driving styles are very different too.

Massa makes a small bit up for it with aggression, true, but for some reason his fights never seem so easy, so natural actually. Seems to be surprised in more fights than his teammate, f.e. against Schumacher or Hamilton. Strange phenomena.

#17 Konsta

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 10:43

Well, he already knows what to do this year. His confidence was blasted anyway, on qualifying laps he can make the difference but reality strikes again, over 300km he often struggles against Alonso simply because he isn't in the same league. BLASPHEMY! Fernando is dragging a hopeless car along and manages to extract the most out of it and Felipe, I think he just doesn't manage to do the same over and over again. Driving styles are very different too.

Massa makes a small bit up for it with aggression, true, but for some reason his fights never seem so easy, so natural actually. Seems to be surprised in more fights than his teammate, f.e. against Schumacher or Hamilton. Strange phenomena.


One of the biggest differences between those two is in racecraft. Felipe is quick but totally useless when it comes to racing. His "aggressiveness" results only in collisions. Fernando is a sniper - he is skillful and seldom makes mistakes.

Based on talent and skill I´d say that Ferrari team has number 1 and number 7 drivers ATM :)


#18 Buttoneer

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 12:17

To me, Massa has not appeared to be the driver he once was since his return to racing after his spring break. Whether he really is slower and unwilling to take risks, the car development direction doesn't suit, or he is just suffering from comparison with Alonso I really do not know. He always used to have a few bright shining moments every season, but I'm simply not seeing them anymore and even if some mishap befalls Alonso, he's never there to capitalise on that and punish him as a good teammate should. Perhaps the tyres don't suit his style, although I've not read much which might specifically point to this as the reason for his performance deficit. Perhaps he's not using KERS smartly or efficiently, or maybe not brave enough to deploy the DRS wing in qualifying as often? Considering the warning in the opening post, I wasn't going to mention team orders but I feel that I must because it is inconceivable that they did not affect his status within the team or his ultimate motivation level. I know how I would feel if something similar happened to me in the workplace, and only if he felt comfortable that these were really one-off instances would he perhaps get over it. That said, if he didn't like it and had any pride, he'd have left. That was his advice to Barrichello, wasn't it?

Alonso is consistent, fast and smart and if Ferrari gives him a car capable of a sniff at the WDC then he'll get it. His previous relationship with some of the tech guys who have arrived from McLaren will put him in good stead for 2012 too because as they introduce new working practices he'll know how to fit in with that. While 2010 must have been a very disappointing year to come away from because he got so close, I imagine he will have walked away from 2011 happier in his own performances because the car simply wasn't up to scratch and it wasn't his 'fault'. So if he starts the year positively and the car is even close to the front you'd be mad not to expect wins but even he needs a car that is regularly at the front in order to secure a championship.

For the WCC it all depends on Massa. The car last year was much better than the points differential suggested but Massa's lacklustre performances and Ham-magnet tendencies really ruined it and I think he rightly bears a lot of that responsibility. It's not inconceivable that with the driver performance gap the team could with the WDC but not the WCC.

My prediction for the season is that as long as Massa gets back in the groove Alonso will be a little ahead on qualifying (maybe 3:2 ratio) but dominate in race results.

#19 kosmos

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 13:53

I always saw Massa as a guy that is a very good runner but not a very good climber or swimmer, Alonso in the other hand is very good at running, climbing and swimming, so anything outside running is a lost match for Massa. Even if you check 2008, you can see on him brilliance but also inconsistency and sometimes lack of race craft, if Felipe needs to win the title, not only the team fully behind his back, but also a teammate out of form, a rival driver/team that makes silly mistakes and a great car, the he is done. F1 is not a straight road, is an ironman.

Said that, I think Massa is going to do much better this year.

Edited by kosmos, 08 February 2012 - 13:55.


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#20 LiJu914

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 13:59

If reports are correct that the new Ferrari once again inherited the tendecy to understeer from its predecessors then Massa is already toast.

Edited by LiJu914, 08 February 2012 - 15:38.


#21 kosmos

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 05:01

“I think the F2012 could well suit my driving style better than the previous car: for example, there is much less understeer,” continued Felipe.


So much for the car being developed for Alonso.

#22 holiday

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 09:15

Talk-wise Massa has opened the 2012 battle on a high note, but on the track it won't be enough to keep his seat at Ferrari. Hopefully, he can at least show a few flashes of brilliance to keep it interesting, but ultimately he won't be able to keep the Alonso steamroller at bay.

#23 sv401

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 09:32

“I think the F2012 could well suit my driving style better than the previous car: for example, there is much less understeer,” continued Felipe.


The F10 and F150 were also said to suit him in winter testing, though.


#24 freya

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 23:23

Compared to any of the cars in 2011. The Ferrari, mainly under Fernando had far better starts than any other driver on the grid last year. To the point other teams claimed Ferrari were cheating. I doubt we'll take a step backwards in this respect this year.


So in that video next to all of the nothing you can see that it starts better than "any of the cars in 2011". Basically we are talking about hundredth of seconds here so you know what you are talking about...

And actually massa had the overall better starts than alonso in 2011.

#25 Fontainebleau

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 23:41

So in that video next to all of the nothing you can see that it starts better than "any of the cars in 2011". Basically we are talking about hundredth of seconds here so you know what you are talking about...

And actually massa had the overall better starts than alonso in 2011.

May I ask which measure did you use to reach that conclusion? Alonso was very spectacular at starts, particularly in Spain and Italy. Massa may have gained more positions (I don't know the numbers), but I had the impression (which may be wrong) that he usually started further down than Alonso, which obviously made it easier - he could overtake cars other than RBR and McLaren!

#26 freya

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 23:46

May I ask which measure did you use to reach that conclusion? Alonso was very spectacular at starts, particularly in Spain and Italy. Massa may have gained more positions (I don't know the numbers), but I had the impression (which may be wrong) that he usually started further down than Alonso, which obviously made it easier - he could overtake cars other than RBR and McLaren!


Well watch the starts again you will see what "measures" I used. Massa is a disappointing driver, but he had great starts this year.

#27 SirRacer

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 00:24

To be honest, in my opinion, what Alonso did taking 1st position in Spain and Italy makes up for whatever Massa did back there in all the other races, even if he gained more positions than Alonso.

#28 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 00:33

To be honest, in my opinion, what Alonso did taking 1st position in Spain and Italy makes up for whatever Massa did back there in all the other races, even if he gained more positions than Alonso.


I couldn't agree more. You also have to consider Massa started further back with a better car, hence why he passed more people. Massa came nowhere close to having the kind of starts Fernando did. Nobody on the grid did for that matter.

#29 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 00:35

Can we just say that the engineering team built fantastic launch devices, that both drivers made good use of them (each in their fashion, obviously dependent on the grid position) and consequently both often had really fantastic starts? No need for a pissing contest :wave: :)

#30 freya

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 00:40

I couldn't agree more. You also have to consider Massa started further back with a better car, hence why he passed more people. Massa came nowhere close to having the kind of starts Fernando did. Nobody on the grid did for that matter.


I don't know what races you have been watching, it is either the TV or the alonso glasses, but massa even overtook alonso several times.

I think alex wurz once said that massa was by far the best starter at the front of the grid in 2011.



#31 BernieEc

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 00:48

To be honest I do think Massa had better starts than Alonso. By and large in Barcelona Alonso had a mega start but usually more than often Mass used to get by Alonso himself . Really he does possess a skill there .....and am not a massa fan

Schumacher is another I will rate with fantastic starts

Edited by BernieEc, 10 March 2012 - 00:54.


#32 PoleMan

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 00:53

I don't know what races you have been watching, it is either the TV or the alonso glasses, but massa even overtook alonso several times.

I think alex wurz once said that massa was by far the best starter at the front of the grid in 2011.

Ok. Massa made some excellent starts last year. Alonso, as well, and usually further ahead on the grid. I saw all the races and didn't see it the way you do. For instance, I think Massa made generally better starts than Alonso in 2010, but not 2011.

But these are just opinions, so it's fine. One is not better than another...just different.

Just about 1 week until qualifying now. UGH! And a start at 2a/et! Love it and HATE it at the same time. :lol:

#33 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 00:55

Freya, are you not thinking about 2010? After the first few races of 2011 Alonso's starts were brilliant! Spain was masterful because it wasn't just the initial launch that did it, his drive down to and through the first corner was amazing.

#34 freya

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 01:00

But these are just opinions, so it's fine. One is not better than another...just different.


Nope, these are not my opinions, these are facts. My opinion is that Massa sucks, but that's irrelevant here. Relevant is that he had significantly better starts which is evident by the available video footage world wide.

@RockyRaccoon68: Nope in 2011. Of course barcelona was a great start by alonso. But we had 19 races. I remember all of this mainly because seeing Massa annoy the mclarens everytime at start pissed me off, since he would be so slow later on.



#35 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 01:34

Nope, these are not my opinions, these are facts. My opinion is that Massa sucks, but that's irrelevant here. Relevant is that he had significantly better starts which is evident by the available video footage world wide.

@RockyRaccoon68: Nope in 2011. Of course barcelona was a great start by alonso. But we had 19 races. I remember all of this mainly because seeing Massa annoy the mclarens everytime at start pissed me off, since he would be so slow later on.


You are an absolute joke. I'm going to start just from Malaysia

Melbourne: Massa

Malaysia: Fernando

China: Massa

Turkey: Fernando

Spain: Fernando

Monaco: Fernando

Canada: Saftey Car

European: Fernando

British: Fernando

German: Fernando

Hungary: Fernando

Spa: Massa

Italy: Fernando

Singapore: Fernando

Japan: Massa

Korea: Massa

India: Fernando

Abu Dhabi: Fernando

Brazil: Fernando


Edited by CrucialXtreme, 10 March 2012 - 01:58.


#36 BernieEc

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 01:50

You are an absolute joke. I'm going to start just from Malaysia

Malaysia: Fernando

China: Massa

Turkey: Fernando

Spain: Fernando

Monaco: Fernando

Canada: Saftey Car

European: Fernando

British: Fernando

German: Fernando

Hungary: Fernando

Spa: Massa

Italy: Fernando

Singapore: Fernando

Japan: Massa

Korea: Massa

India: Fernando

Abu Dhabi: Fernando

Brazil: Fernando


Just looking at the stats you posted and just at the top of my head I can see you omitted

Australia where Massa had a better start

Malaysia I know for sure massa had a better start. pipped alonso into the second corner.


Wish I had the time to look at all the footages of the others......but Massa and schumacher are regarded as one of the better starters on the grid......not alonso...to be honest what exactly is a better start ? if alonso was always in front and remained in front thru the first corner and still ahead of massa....would you consider him a better starter than massa. nI would think it is better to see how many times alonso started behind massa and made up positions ..........its not really as exact as the first thru the first corner.....


but I really do think massa has the better starts....but thats where his A game ends!!

Edited by BernieEc, 10 March 2012 - 01:53.


#37 PoleMan

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 01:52

Thank you, Crucial!

Freya,

Hubris is one thing, but when your boast is full of bat guano, it's downright embarrassing.

I went back and looked at ALL of the Official F1 Race Edits (Thanks for that BTW! Quite enjoyable and great way to whet the appetite for the new season!).

Alonso got the better start (Meaning he wasn't overtaken by Massa at the start, "cleanly") in AUS, TUR, ESP, MON, MTL (WET START), GBR, GER, HUN, ITA, SEP, JPN, IND, ABU and BRA.
Massa beat Alonso (some Demon starts, BTW!) in MLY, CHN, EUR, SPA and KOR.

You should have taken me up on it just being your opinion, but it turns out you were correct in saying it is a FACT...and the FACTS show you have no clue. :kiss:

*EDIT: Crucial, the Race Edit starts aren't always great, but I have Massa beating Alonso in Malaysia and Alonso beating Felipe in Japan.

Edited by PoleMan, 10 March 2012 - 01:56.


#38 MGKrebs

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 01:52

So in that video next to all of the nothing you can see that it starts better than "any of the cars in 2011". Basically we are talking about hundredth of seconds here so you know what you are talking about...

And actually massa had the overall better starts than alonso in 2011.


So Massa's hundredths of a second are easier to spot than Alonso's?


#39 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 01:55

Just looking at the stats you posted and just at the top of my head I can see you omitted

Australia where Massa had a better start

Malaysia I know for sure massa had a better start. pipped alonso into the second corner.


Wish I had the time to look at all the footages of the others......but Massa and schumacher are regarded as one of the better starters on the grid......not alonso


I originally started at Abu Dhabi and worked backwards. Edited as I went. The start is the key. In Sepang, ok he got him in the second corner, Alonso still was ahead in the first. Oh and Melbourne. Do you seriously think they compare to Fernando? You can't be serious.

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#40 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 01:56

So Massa's hundredths of a second are easier to spot than Alonso's?


Oh yeah, that Freya for ya... :rotfl: He twists and turns things to fit whatever BS point he's trying to make. He is truly full of it.

Edited by CrucialXtreme, 10 March 2012 - 01:57.


#41 BernieEc

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 01:57

Thank you, Crucial!

Freya,

Hubris is one thing, but when your boast is full of bat guano, it's downright embarassing.

I went back and looked at ALL of the Official F1 Race Edits (Thanks for that BTW! Quite enjoyable and great way to whet the appetite for the new season!).

Alonso got the better start (Meaning he wasn't overtaken by Massa at the start, "cleanly") in AUS, TUR, ESP, MON, MTL (WET START), GBR, GER, HUN, ITA, SEP, JPN, IND, ABU and BRA.
Massa beat Alonso (some Demon starts, BTW!) in MLY, CHN, EUR, SPA and KOR.

You should have taken me up on it just being your opinion, but it turns out you were correct in saying it is a FACT...and the FACTS show you have no clue. :kiss:


Massa had the better start in Aus.........then button cut the chicane to get pass him and he allowed alonso thru..........hoping button would have to let them both thru.....and as I mentioned above the fact alonso is ahead of massa in grid position and makes it thru the first corner ahead of him does not mean alonso had a better start....it just means he maintained position.

#42 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 02:01

Massa had the better start in Aus.........then button cut the chicane to get pass him and he allowed alonso thru..........hoping button would have to let them both thru.....and as I mentioned above the fact alonso is ahead of massa in grid position and makes it thru the first corner ahead of him does not mean alonso had a better start....it just means he maintained position.


Ok fine, I'll give you that just for shits & giggles. What about the rest of the races? Do you think any start Massa had in 2011 compares to Fernando's Spain & Monza?? LOL. Not even close. The discussion is about the entire season. Not one race. Again, feel free to look back through if you don't remember. Alonso had better starts period.

Edit: Fernando started ahead of Massa in 90% of races. Do you recall hearing that Massa was passing Fernando at the starts throughout the season? No.

Edited by CrucialXtreme, 10 March 2012 - 02:03.


#43 PoleMan

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 02:03

Massa had the better start in Aus.........then button cut the chicane to get pass him and he allowed alonso thru..........hoping button would have to let them both thru.....and as I mentioned above the fact alonso is ahead of massa in grid position and makes it thru the first corner ahead of him does not mean alonso had a better start....it just means he maintained position.


Bernie,

That's why I say it's opinion. What does "better start" mean? If Massa doesn't get ahead, it is, as you say, maintaining his position BEHIND Fernando.

Bottom line is even if we gave you a couple freebies, Alonso is WAY AHEAD in the overall tally, just as he was in points. :cool:

#44 BernieEc

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 02:06

Ok fine, I'll give you that just for shits & giggles. What about the rest of the races? Do you think any start Massa had in 2011 compares to Fernando's Spain & Monza?? LOL. Not even close. The discussion is about the entire season. Not one race. Again, feel free to look back through if you don't remember. Alonso had better starts period.



I remember Alonso in barcelona was quite good (immense in fact) but honestly......during the start of a race there are 3 things that usually happens

Massa starts well.....then rams hamilton
Schumacher starts well...and crashes into either a force india or sauber by the 2nd corner
Webber bogs down....and finishes the race on steroids......

I guess its the criteria we use to judge these starts....lets just agree to disagree......its not really a big deal to me....am no fan of either of them

Edited by BernieEc, 10 March 2012 - 02:08.


#45 Ferrari2183

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 04:21

You are an absolute joke. I'm going to start just from Malaysia

Melbourne: Massa

Malaysia: Fernando

China: Massa

Turkey: Fernando

Spain: Fernando

Monaco: Fernando

Canada: Saftey Car

European: Fernando

British: Fernando

German: Fernando

Hungary: Fernando

Spa: Massa

Italy: Fernando

Singapore: Fernando

Japan: Massa

Korea: Massa

India: Fernando

Abu Dhabi: Fernando

Brazil: Fernando

How could Alonso have had a better start at Hungary when he was behind Massa after the first few corners?


#46 freya

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 09:02

So Massa's hundredths of a second are easier to spot than Alonso's?


I don't know what kind of damaged logic you used to extract that.

#47 freya

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 09:03

You are an absolute joke. I'm going to start just from Malaysia

Melbourne: Massa

Malaysia: Fernando

China: Massa

Turkey: Fernando

Spain: Fernando

Monaco: Fernando

Canada: Saftey Car

European: Fernando

British: Fernando

German: Fernando

Hungary: Fernando

Spa: Massa

Italy: Fernando

Singapore: Fernando

Japan: Massa

Korea: Massa

India: Fernando

Abu Dhabi: Fernando

Brazil: Fernando


You are not afraid of literally making things up. I am sorry to tell you but go watch the races again and stop making a joke out of yourself, I have had my fun already. I don't mean just this topic, you are on a roll.

Will give you examples: www.formula1.com , go watch European race edit. Watch germany too. IF it is not visible to you who got better of the line it is just hopeless. Shame...

Edited by freya, 10 March 2012 - 09:31.


#48 cardin

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 09:25

You are an absolute joke. I'm going to start just from Malaysia

Melbourne: Massa

Malaysia: Fernando

China: Massa

Turkey: Fernando

Spain: Fernando

Monaco: Fernando

Canada: Saftey Car

European: Fernando

British: Fernando

German: Fernando

Hungary: Fernando

Spa: Massa

Italy: Fernando

Singapore: Fernando

Japan: Massa

Korea: Massa

India: Fernando

Abu Dhabi: Fernando

Brazil: Fernando


You are dishonest.


#49 nbhb

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 09:44

You are an absolute joke. I'm going to start just from Malaysia

Melbourne: Massa

Malaysia: Fernando

China: Massa

Turkey: Fernando

Spain: Fernando

Monaco: Fernando

Canada: Saftey Car

European: Fernando

British: Fernando

German: Fernando

Hungary: Fernando

Spa: Massa

Italy: Fernando

Singapore: Fernando

Japan: Massa

Korea: Massa

India: Fernando

Abu Dhabi: Fernando

Brazil: Fernando


If starts means how you get off the line, then I have to tell you that I checked 4 starts on your list and there are all wrong.

1. British - Massa started much better despite being on dirty side and was almost alongside, but Alonso got lucky coz it was a short distance till turn 1.
2. European GP- Alonso started 4th and Massa started 5th and after 200meters Massa was already in front of Alonso and Hamilton which started from 3rd. It was the action in turn 1, where Alonso got better than Massa.
3. Japan - It was Alonso who started better, but Massa was again on the dirty side of the track
4. Abu Dhabi - their start was about equal, but again Massa was starting on the dirty side of the track.


So at starting, which for me means getting of the line, Massa is much better. In the last 2 years, despite most often Massa started on the dirty side of the line, he was much better that Alonso, even if in 2011 it was much closer.

If we speak about the action in turn 1 and the rest of the lap 1, yes Alonso is much better in this area, but I doubt that for the majority on here, the start is anything but getting of the line until the turn 1.

As someone pointed out, at starts, you expect Shumacher and Massa to gain positions and Webber to fell back.

#50 CrucialXtreme

CrucialXtreme
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Posted 10 March 2012 - 11:24

If starts means how you get off the line, then I have to tell you that I checked 4 starts on your list and there are all wrong.

1. British - Massa started much better despite being on dirty side and was almost alongside, but Alonso got lucky coz it was a short distance till turn 1.
2. European GP- Alonso started 4th and Massa started 5th and after 200meters Massa was already in front of Alonso and Hamilton which started from 3rd. It was the action in turn 1, where Alonso got better than Massa.
3. Japan - It was Alonso who started better, but Massa was again on the dirty side of the track
4. Abu Dhabi - their start was about equal, but again Massa was starting on the dirty side of the track.


1) Oh Fernando got lucky? Lol

2)At the European GP, Massa did get off the line better than Alonso, but, IMHO Alonso still had the better start because he got the position back and then some into the turn. Here's the video-->

3) It doesn't mean Fernando didn't get a better start

4) Abu Dhabi video. Fernando is 5th going into T1 Massa is 6th at apex

Again, Fernando's two starts at either Spain & Monza are better than a culmination of all of Massa's starts over the season. Show me where Massa had a start in 2011 that even closely resembles Spain or Monza.

Edited by CrucialXtreme, 10 March 2012 - 11:25.