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Alonso vs Massa 2012


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#151 F1fanatic85

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 17:37

And how did you know that. Are you some kind of psychic?

Well i am fairly new in F1 and i don't have any psychic power. But i do have some common sense, i am going to use it.

Before Germany 2010, Alonso had 98 points and Felipe had 67 points. And Lewis was championship leader that time.(145 pts)
But that's not the point. The gap between Lewis-Fernando was 47 points (less than 2 race victories) and the gap between Lewis-Felipe was 78 points (more than 3 race victories).

And Germany was round 11, which means only 8 race left for season ending. And it is always hard to overtake in F1. And the most hardest man to overtake is your teammate.

And, Fernando did finish the race 4.1 sec ahead of Massa, who just finished 0.925 sec ahead of Vettel. And Alonso got very close to become 2010 WDC after overcoming such a huge point deficit. So in the end, Ferrari's German GP team order totally justified.


Why don't Massa just roll over right from the start, you never know it could give Alonso the title, those extra points could be vital in the future. Infact why don't they just scrap Massa and leave Alonso to do the business. Never heard as much tripe in my life

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#152 zyphro

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 17:46

You have just confirmed that he did not say it, and then ridiculed yourself.


How have I? I said he didn't explicitly say he wanted to be let through: HE WAS IMPLYING IT.

You're probably an FA fan but for god sake open up your eyes and ears.

Oh and Massa was called magnanimous? Why would he be complimented like that IF IT WASNT A TEAM ORDER?

Geez!

Edited by zyphro, 16 March 2012 - 17:46.


#153 zyphro

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 17:48

And how did you know that. Are you some kind of psychic?

Well i am fairly new in F1 and i don't have any psychic power. But i do have some common sense, i am going to use it.

Before Germany 2010, Alonso had 98 points and Felipe had 67 points. And Lewis was championship leader that time.(145 pts)
But that's not the point. The gap between Lewis-Fernando was 47 points (less than 2 race victories) and the gap between Lewis-Felipe was 78 points (more than 3 race victories).

And Germany was round 11, which means only 8 race left for season ending. And it is always hard to overtake in F1. And the most hardest man to overtake is your teammate.

And, Fernando did finish the race 4.1 sec ahead of Massa, who just finished 0.925 sec ahead of Vettel. And Alonso got very close to become 2010 WDC after overcoming such a huge point deficit. So in the end, Ferrari's German GP team order totally justified.


Obvious pathetic ferrari fan is obvious.

There's no winning with you guys: you can't admit something that is so obvious!

RS's comments at the end of the race said it all! How can you disprove that? LOL!

Do you know what "magnanimous" means?

If not I suggest you look it up. That term is not used if you were passed by your team mate fair and square!

Edited by zyphro, 16 March 2012 - 17:48.


#154 zyphro

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 17:49

mag·nan·i·mous/magˈnanəməs/
Adjective:
Very generous or forgiving, esp. toward a rival or someone less powerful than oneself.


GOOD GAME.

#155 xlr8

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 17:52

Obvious pathetic ferrari fan is obvious.

There's no winning with you guys: you can't admit something that is so obvious!

RS's comments at the end of the race said it all! How can you disprove that? LOL!


Idiot. First learn how to discuss reasonably.

#156 zyphro

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 17:53

Idiot. First learn how to discuss reasonably.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Is that your comeback?

I'm not going to post the same bs every single time: look back a few pages.

Edited by zyphro, 16 March 2012 - 17:54.


#157 xlr8

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 17:56

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Is that your comeback?

I'm not going to post the same bs every single time: look back a few pages.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

No body asked you to post BS every single time. :lol:

#158 zyphro

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 18:00

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

No body asked you to post BS every single time. :lol:


I have to prove a point, even if it means posting the same crap again and again. :wave: :wave:

I see you're not disagreeing?;)

Edited by zyphro, 16 March 2012 - 18:01.


#159 Seanspeed

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 18:02

I'm going to repost the OP for you guys:

This topic it's here to talk about 2012 season, testing, races, qualifying, standings, driving styles and everything related to their battle on the track.

This topic it's not for:

-2010 team orders discussion.
-Santander paranoia.
-Trolling.
-Your own hate/dislike to any of the drivers.

Please respect the people that want to talk in a civil way about both drivers. :)



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#160 Blackmadonna

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 18:04

I have to prove a point, even if it means posting the same crap again and again. :wave: :wave:

I see you're not disagreeing?;)



And what point do you aim to make by posting- and i quote- the same crap over and over again? That you are a parrot?

#161 zyphro

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 18:06

And what point do you aim to make by posting- and i quote- the same crap over and over again? That you are a parrot?


No it goes to show how deluded the people asking the same Q are- who are not willing to accept the truth.


:wave: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Edited by zyphro, 16 March 2012 - 18:06.


#162 Seanspeed

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 18:25

Guys, shut up. I'll repost it again:

This topic it's here to talk about 2012 season, testing, races, qualifying, standings, driving styles and everything related to their battle on the track.

This topic it's not for:

-2010 team orders discussion.

-Santander paranoia.
-Trolling.
-Your own hate/dislike to any of the drivers.

Please respect the people that want to talk in a civil way about both drivers. :)



#163 garoidb

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:36

Alonso outqualifies Massa by four places and more than a second. Obviously, he made a bad error too but this does not look good for Massa.

#164 Sevach

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:44

Before the mistake Alonso was doing an outstanding job to find time out of that lemon.

Massa is just very slow and without any confidence in the F2012.

#165 Aerosoul

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:17

Alonso will thrash Massa.

At the minute i would rate Massa as the weakest and slowest/talentless driver of F1 currently.

#166 Outsider

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:21

Alonso will thrash Massa.

At the minute i would rate Massa as the weakest and slowest/talentless driver of F1 currently.

at the moment i almost agree with your last point

#167 sergeym

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:26

Massa has certainly started the season in the worst possible way. He was slow the whole race and retired in the stupid collision.

#168 Henrik B

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:39

His pace today wasn't the biggest problem - bad car and wet friday means Massa didn't have a usable setup, I can forgive him for that, but he did yet again have a stupid collision. I haven't seen the results of the post-race invesigation but I wouldn't be surprised stewards have woken up to the fact that Massa perhaps wasn't totally innocent in all Lewis incidents last year.

I was already convinced, but I'm now 100% sure the spring made Massa a much worse driver than before.

#169 puxanando

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 12:37

Can't understand Ferrari! Its time to go for Massa!

#170 Alondra

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 12:43

"Its time to go for Massa!"

:lol: The opposite - it's time to let him go!




#171 fabr68

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 12:46

Just remember today when Alonso is the only Ferrari driver with a chance for the WDC and needs all the points he can get and Ferrari asks Massa to get out of his way.

#172 discover23

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 13:06

Just remember today when Alonso is the only Ferrari driver with a chance for the WDC and needs all the points he can get and Ferrari asks Massa to get out of his way.

Good one , Ferrari knows this since the first few races in 2010 . Alonso is a machine...

#173 aray

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 14:11

this thread title has lost it's meaning....
people are not using the word 'ferrari' as much when comparing to other teams as the word 'alonso'....
every team thread i am reading,it's going like...'Macca,RB,Lotus,alonso,Sauber,FI..'.etc. etc...

#174 Mastah

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 17:10

Guess what, Rob "Helping Hand" Smedley is back:

http://www.dailymoti...io-feature_auto

1:10 "Take less speed in corner 11, take less speed in corner 11"

What a joke of a driver this guy is :lol:.

#175 Ferrari2183

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 18:26

Guess what, Rob "Helping Hand" Smedley is back:

http://www.dailymoti...io-feature_auto

1:10 "Take less speed in corner 11, take less speed in corner 11"

What a joke of a driver this guy is :lol:.

Ferrari should dump him mid season and give that seat to Checo or Jules. None of them can do worse against Alonso than what Massa is currently and they're younger and hungrier.

#176 Jejking

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 18:42

Guess what, Rob "Helping Hand" Smedley is back:

http://www.dailymoti...io-feature_auto

1:10 "Take less speed in corner 11, take less speed in corner 11"

What a joke of a driver this guy is :lol:.

You didn't hear the reason for it. Tyre degradation in particular fast corners is well possible. Massas performance was bad today but the car was not perfect either :rolleyes:

#177 Francesc

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 18:45

You didn't hear the reason for it. Tyre degradation in particular fast corners is well possible. Massas performance was bad today but the car was not perfect either :rolleyes:


He most likely said it because it was compromising his speed in turn 12 and so on to the straight.

#178 Aieljose

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 18:56

I think we are being slightly too hard on massa. Yes he isn't performing well but alonso's amazing driving makes him look more useless than he really is. Doubt many drivers could do any better.

#179 Showty

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 19:44

The thing is, the worst the car is the biggest the difference between Alonso and Massa would be.

If Ferrari doesn´t improve the car dramatically i expect a very tough season for Massa, much more than 2011.

And surely his last with Ferrari.



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#180 garoidb

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 20:25

I think we are being slightly too hard on massa. Yes he isn't performing well but alonso's amazing driving makes him look more useless than he really is. Doubt many drivers could do any better.


It is time to find out (for 2013 at least).

#181 Seanspeed

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 21:43

I think we are being slightly too hard on massa. Yes he isn't performing well but alonso's amazing driving makes him look more useless than he really is. Doubt many drivers could do any better.

But you'd agree there are some that could? Ferrari deserve better.

#182 sosidge

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 21:48

But you'd agree there are some that could? Ferrari deserve better.


The sport deserves better.

#183 Big Block 8

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 21:53

For Ferrari this is 1996(7) all over again. Difficult car means all team effort is thrown in to make it drivable for the #1 driver - the #2 is just a grid filler and alone in the jungle.

#184 Seanspeed

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 21:55

For Ferrari this is 1996(7) all over again. Difficult car means all team effort is thrown in to make it drivable for the #1 driver - the #2 is just a grid filler and alone in the jungle.

No, its not. Ferrari have the resources to look after two drivers. Just so happens one of them is much better at wranglin around a difficult car.

#185 Big Block 8

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 22:25

No, its not. Ferrari have the resources to look after two drivers. Just so happens one of them is much better at wranglin around a difficult car.


They don't have the resources to run two car programs in parallel universes, they focus on just one. It just happens to be that they've admitted that the car they've produced is 1) a difficult one and 2) they don't yet understand the behaviour of the car. Such a situation simply means a massive advantage for the #1 driver and thus there's no meaningful comparison between the #1 and #2.

#186 Seanspeed

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 22:26

They don't have the resources to run two car programs in parallel universes, they focus on just one.

Yea, thats BS.

Edited by Seanspeed, 18 March 2012 - 22:26.


#187 Mandzipop

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 22:26

We know that the tyre degradation on the Ferrari is not good if the car is not set up perfectly.

With it being a difficult car and with a narrow set up window for performance, it is not beyind the boundaries of belief that they didn't get the set-up right. We knew about this in winter testing.

When that car is not set up well it destroys its tyre's very quickly. Due to the tight window with little running, it could well have been the case that the car was not set up right.

Massa had a blistering start and was running not much behind Alonso until the tyre's dropped off which started around lap 6 or 7. After that the race went downhill. However Massa is a very good starter and the trend of the Ferrari atm is that it is good starter.

The collision was a racing incident.

I also suspect that when it has been said that Alonso is a good developer of a car, this could well mean something different. Could it be that he is the best at giving feedback for the optimum set-up of a car? Maybe Massa is not good in that area when the car is not good.

I think that Alonso has one key area over Massa, he is more adaptable.

If you combine a driver that is full of conficence, highly adaptable and able to get the optimum set up of a bad car with time at a premium and his team-mate lacks in those areas, then the talents of the former driver is always going to win unless there is a fluke.

#188 Callisto

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 22:32

i think Alonso had a very good drive today in Australia :up:

#189 Mastah

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 05:40

You didn't hear the reason for it. Tyre degradation in particular fast corners is well possible. Massas performance was bad today but the car was not perfect either :rolleyes:


I'm not giving him benefit of the doubt after hearing similar comments many times before:

http://youtu.be/mX0U8VsxqV8?t=1m15s


#190 walkindude

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:08

Soo alonso wins australia right?

#191 SirRacer

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:14

Soo alonso wins australia right?

Yes but only because Massa drove slow in qualy and during all race.

#192 motorhead

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:13

I think we are being slightly too hard on massa. Yes he isn't performing well but alonso's amazing driving makes him look more useless than he really is. Doubt many drivers could do any better.


Or maybe it is the opposite way, Massa´s driving makes Alonso´s performance amazing. If Vettel, Button or Hamilton were in Massa´s seat we could really see where Ferrari is in the grid as a team.

#193 garoidb

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:28

Or maybe it is the opposite way, Massa´s driving makes Alonso´s performance amazing. If Vettel, Button or Hamilton were in Massa´s seat we could really see where Ferrari is in the grid as a team.


Either way, I would like to see a proven talent in that Ferrari seat as soon as possible. Kubica would have been perfect but it is not so easy to see who fits the bill now (given that Vettel, Button or Hamilton* are off the agenda).

* While he will be contractually free, and I would like to see it happen, I cannot see why Ferrari would do it.

#194 Cesc

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 09:13

They don't have the resources to run two car programs in parallel universes, they focus on just one. It just happens to be that they've admitted that the car they've produced is 1) a difficult one and 2) they don't yet understand the behaviour of the car. Such a situation simply means a massive advantage for the #1 driver and thus there's no meaningful comparison between the #1 and #2.


I don't understand this argument. In which way what you have described in points 1 and 2 means that Alonso has massive advantage? As far as I know, they work on improving the F2012, which is the same car for both at this point. They can put in a piece here and there during Friday frees, but they will not put everything new only in one car for the whle season.

What I saw on Melbourne is a very "meaningful comparison between the #1 and #2".

#195 as65p

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 09:17

I don't understand this argument. In which way what you have described in points 1 and 2 means that Alonso has massive advantage? As far as I know, they work on improving the F2012, which is the same car for both at this point. They can put in a piece here and there during Friday frees, but they will not put everything new only in one car for the whle season.

What I saw on Melbourne is a very "meaningful comparison between the #1 and #2".


There can be no doubt that at this point in time, every decision within the team will go "in dubio pro Alonso". And each time Massa performs like yesterday, he proves that policy right.

#196 Cesc

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 09:21

Or maybe it is the opposite way, Massa´s driving makes Alonso´s performance amazing. If Vettel, Button or Hamilton were in Massa´s seat we could really see where Ferrari is in the grid as a team.


Yes, this is the same old story again... but looking at the records, Alonso has outperformed everyone in a similar way during his career apart from 2007 in the McLaren universe. Even Trulli, apart except the first half of the 2004, when the car was competitive, was clearly outperformed by a less than experienced Alonso in the 2003 and 2004 combined seasons. This was also said about Fisichella in 2005 and 2006, a driver that did more than decent drivings during his career and suddenly, he was crap because Alonso was beating him. Piquet cannot be in the discussin as the difference at all levels was huge. Grosejan was no match obviously for Alonso in 2009 (but now Grosejan seems to be a driver capable of beating Kimi, but I give hime the credit of two more seasons of experience and a much better car than in R29).



#197 garoidb

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 09:49

Yes, this is the same old story again... but looking at the records, Alonso has outperformed everyone in a similar way during his career apart from 2007 in the McLaren universe. Even Trulli, apart except the first half of the 2004, when the car was competitive, was clearly outperformed by a less than experienced Alonso in the 2003 and 2004 combined seasons. This was also said about Fisichella in 2005 and 2006, a driver that did more than decent drivings during his career and suddenly, he was crap because Alonso was beating him. Piquet cannot be in the discussin as the difference at all levels was huge. Grosejan was no match obviously for Alonso in 2009 (but now Grosejan seems to be a driver capable of beating Kimi, but I give hime the credit of two more seasons of experience and a much better car than in R29).


I agree. Trulli and Fisichella were considered very hot prospects at the time he was paired with them. He came out ahead of Trulli over the two seasons, and Trulli remained in demand. He also beat Villeneuve at the end of the 2004 season. He beat Fisichella convncingly, so now he is not considered such a great driver. Hence, no credit for beating him! In 2009, though, Fisi contended for a win in a Force India. He was in fact a very good driver. With Hamilton, it was fairly level pegging and both are considered top drivers. Piquet was a race winning GP2 driver, not some hopeless case. To avoid giving credit to Alonso, he was portrayed as such. Grosjean was dropped in the deep end, but is a talented driver and was selected because he was (and is again) a future prospect. Massa was viewed as being a tough nut for Alonso to crack in some quarters ahead of the 2010 season. Now, there is no acknowledgement that he was, or is, in any way difficult to beat.

#198 NJB13

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 09:57

No-one is a bigger Felipe fan than me, but he really needs to string together a few good races.

#199 motorhead

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 10:15

Yes, this is the same old story again... but looking at the records, Alonso has outperformed everyone in a similar way during his career apart from 2007 in the McLaren universe. Even Trulli, apart except the first half of the 2004, when the car was competitive, was clearly outperformed by a less than experienced Alonso in the 2003 and 2004 combined seasons. This was also said about Fisichella in 2005 and 2006, a driver that did more than decent drivings during his career and suddenly, he was crap because Alonso was beating him. Piquet cannot be in the discussin as the difference at all levels was huge. Grosejan was no match obviously for Alonso in 2009 (but now Grosejan seems to be a driver capable of beating Kimi, but I give hime the credit of two more seasons of experience and a much better car than in R29).


In "a similar way" is a bit harsh. If things are so black and white Button must be best of them all becouse he has beat Hamilton.

Edited by motorhead, 19 March 2012 - 10:16.


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#200 Cesc

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 10:47

In "a similar way" is a bit harsh. If things are so black and white Button must be best of them all becouse he has beat Hamilton.


Well, I think we all know that in F1 does not work the argument:

Driver 1 beats 2, Driver 2 beats 3, then Driver 1 MUST beat 3 by all means.

There are a lot of variables. The only common factor is that Alonso always beats his team mates by a significant difference during a season long, I don't see here things as a black or white.