49 replies to this topic

[Formula Once]

What would be a source to track engine numbers of DFVs used in the 70s? Thanks!

[f1steveuk]

What would be a source to track engine numbers of DFVs used in the 70s? Thanks!

There used to be a pretty good list in the back of John Blunsden's book "The Power To Win" (is that the DFV story title?)

[macoran]

What would be a source to track engine numbers of DFVs used in the 70s? Thanks!

I seem to remember that Autosport GP reports of the day listed the engines used.

[Formula Once]

I seem to remember that Autosport GP reports of the day listed the engines used.

Thanks, anyone has access to 1973 Autosports or the book mentioned? I have Motor Sports only...

[Allen Brown]

Curiously enough, a very good source for DFV numbers was Autocar.

[Tim Murray]

Thanks, anyone has access to 1973 Autosports or the book mentioned? I have Motor Sports only...

I have all the Autosport 1973 Grand Prix reports readily accessible. Let me know what information you're after.

[Simon Hadfield]

But remember the dreaded carnet - at ATS we had (from memory) 10 ish DFVs but only carnets for 3 or 4, separate to the complete car. So, small strips of aluminium, one set of number punches and some Araldite.......and unlike a car which was immediately identifiable by distinguishing features an engine had to be VERY closely examined to know it's true identity. So, don't necessarily take all observations at face value, and this also why I think so few journalists took any notice after the first few years.

[Doug Nye]

Absolutely right - a cautionary tale. If a DFV number appeared to be stamped upon an attached plate rather than struck into the cast block base material it was dubious.

DFV

[Formula Once]

I know, I know, nothing's certain that's all that really is...

[f1steveuk]

The only one I can remember with certainty is
1973 Watkins Glenn, Cevert, Tyrrell 006/3 engine number 066, it's engrained.........................

[Pete Lyons]

Simon and Doug are right, engine numbers were as suspect as chassis plates. In the period 1973-1976 I'm the guy who was tasked with supplying the engine numbers for the Autosport data panels (which were done back in London in pen and ink by Alan Phillips). I'd have to beaver the GP paddocks an hour or so before a race, darting in to peer down at the top rear of each engine to note down the 3-digit number. I think it was at the Nurburgring in either 1974 or 75 when I reached the Williams Iso-Marlboros and, even as my head was bent over my duty, I heard a not so subtle guffaw from one of the lads sitting there watching my little act. I raised my face and said, "This isn't really DFV 123 [or whatever the number], is it." "NAAAWWW!" was the laughing response.

Coincidentally (or not), it was Frank Williams himself who once told me jovially of his minor formula days, when they'd take a van containing three nice, fresh cars into Italy, race them and immediately sell them, MINUS the number plates. Then they'd buy some old metal scrap to carry back out. At border crossings they'd produce the then-required carnets plus the chassis plates and soberly tell the inspectors, "Yes indeed, terrible race, wrote off all three cars ..."

[Doug Nye]

Hi Pete - great to see you here, great story - I might feel forced to pinch it.

There friends is the finest all-round descriptive race reporter God ever provided with pencil lead. Respect.

DCN

[Tim Murray]

There friends is the finest all-round descriptive race reporter God ever provided with pencil lead. Respect.

Amen to that.

[arttidesco]

Amen to that.

Seconded

Suddenly I'm beginning to feel slightly ridiculous plugging away after chassis numbers and engine numbers 40 years after the event

On the other hand people are buying and selling gazzillion dollar vehicles on the strength of such evidence

[Doug Nye]

Seconded

Suddenly I'm beginning to feel slightly ridiculous plugging away after chassis numbers and engine numbers 40 years after the event

On the other hand people are buying and selling gazzillion dollar vehicles on the strength of such evidence

Any would be buyer of a DFV-engined car who becomes intent upon having "a matching numbers car" in the sense applied by so many predominantly American buyers is in for a rude awakening...

DCN

[David M. Kane]

Simon and Doug are right, engine numbers were as suspect as chassis plates. In the period 1973-1976 I'm the guy who was tasked with supplying the engine numbers for the Autosport data panels (which were done back in London in pen and ink by Alan Phillips). I'd have to beaver the GP paddocks an hour or so before a race, darting in to peer down at the top rear of each engine to note down the 3-digit number. I think it was at the Nurburgring in either 1974 or 75 when I reached the Williams Iso-Marlboros and, even as my head was bent over my duty, I heard a not so subtle guffaw from one of the lads sitting there watching my little act. I raised my face and said, "This isn't really DFV 123 [or whatever the number], is it." "NAAAWWW!" was the laughing response.

Coincidentally (or not), it was Frank Williams himself who once told me jovially of his minor formula days, when they'd take a van containing three nice, fresh cars into Italy, race them and immediately sell them, MINUS the number plates. Then they'd buy some old metal scrap to carry back out. At border crossings they'd produce the then-required carnets plus the chassis plates and soberly tell the inspectors, "Yes indeed, terrible race, wrote off all three cars ..."

THAT's a great story!

[scags]

THAT's a great story!

Yes it is- thanks.

[Stephen W]

Suddenly I'm beginning to feel slightly ridiculous plugging away after chassis numbers and engine numbers 40 years after the event

Currently I'm working on the British Hillclimb Championship and finding chassis numbers from 1947 is a bit of a problem! Mind you those from last year aren't exactly easy!

[Pete Lyons]

Doug, you're most welcome to pinch away, I've certainly quoted YOU over the years.
And thanks for the kind word.

(visit petelyons.com to see my photo galleries and other products, including my latest book "Fast Lines," packed with pinchworthy anecdotes ...)

[Doug Nye]

DCN

[Peter Morley]

But remember the dreaded carnet - at ATS we had (from memory) 10 ish DFVs but only carnets for 3 or 4, separate to the complete car. So, small strips of aluminium, one set of number punches and some Araldite.......and unlike a car which was immediately identifiable by distinguishing features an engine had to be VERY closely examined to know it's true identity. So, don't necessarily take all observations at face value, and this also why I think so few journalists took any notice after the first few years.

It was even worse when you got to customs after the best funded 3000 team had been through and the customs man asked why your DFVs etc cost 1/10th of the price of the rich boys ones...

[Doug Nye]

[Alfie]

QUOTE (Simon Hadfield @ Feb 12 2012, 19:04) *
But remember the dreaded carnet - at ATS we had (from memory) 10 ish DFVs but only carnets for 3 or 4, separate to the complete car. So, small strips of aluminium, one set of number punches and some Araldite.......and unlike a car which was immediately identifiable by distinguishing features an engine had to be VERY closely examined to know it's true identity. So, don't necessarily take all observations at face value, and this also why I think so few journalists took any notice after the first few years.


It was even worse when you got to customs after the best funded 3000 team had been through and the customs man asked why your DFVs etc cost 1/10th of the price of the rich boys ones...

Nothing new there then - and of course, do not forget that we still need carnets for America, so don't think it doesn't still go on. Not that I have any direct knowledge of such activity.

Slightly off topic - One development that has taken place has been the addition of tracking devices being added to engines so that the owners know precisely where the engine is. I believe that Renault "lost" an engine a couple of years ago and managed to find it by the tracker in the workshops of a competitor. Don't know if they got it back, but can't you just hear the conversation that might have transpired.

[arttidesco]

Slightly off topic - One development that has taken place has been the addition of tracking devices being added to engines so that the owners know precisely where the engine is. I believe that Renault "lost" an engine a couple of years ago and managed to find it by the tracker in the workshops of a competitor. Don't know if they got it back, but can't you just hear the conversation that might have transpired.

That's blown my impression that modern F1 is wholesome and squeaky clean

Food for future generations of TNFers I am sure

[Formula Once]

Courtesy of The Sound Of Thunder appendix.

I can do scans of the other DFV pages, but not sure of the interest,



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Is book still for sale, or is this from John Blunsden's book "The Power To Win"

[Cargo]

its a scan from the blundsen book

Is book still for sale, or is this from John Blunsden's book "The Power To Win"

[bschenker]

All these lists are inaccurate.

For example, the DFV 802 arrived on the weekend from 9 to 11 May 1969 by Williams in Slough, according to the invoice freshly rebuilt.

On 14 May I left Slough towards Monte Carlo with the Brabham BT24-3 fitted with the Cosworth DFV 802.

As for the number 902, I have my doubts, but earliest in 1970. From the outside, in 1972 at least all was version 1968.

Today, if the engine has survived, must probably found in a Lotus 49.

.

[Nigel Beresford]

Absolutely right - a cautionary tale. If a DFV number appeared to be stamped upon an attached plate rather than struck into the cast block base material it was dubious.

DFV

Indeed. FWIW this was commonplace at Tyrrell in 87-88.

[Nigel Beresford]

Hi Pete - great to see you here, great story - I might feel forced to pinch it.

There friends is the finest all-round descriptive race reporter God ever provided with pencil lead. Respect.

DCN

Hear, hear. Truly peerless.

[gablet]

Hi guys, sorry to revive such an old thread.
I would like to know what F1 team used DFV number 932 during 1970 season.
Could anyone help please? Many thanks in advance!
Gab

[Tim Murray]

According to the listings in Autosport the engine was used by the Rob Walker team in Graham Hill's car in Monaco, Belgium, Canada and the USA.

[simonlewisbooks]

For many years multiple British Hillclimb Champion, the late Roy Lane, ran a DFV which the commentators always identified as Bruce McLaren's 1968 Belgian GP winner.
I think this was the engine that powered the famous 2-4-0 March in 1979 and various Pilbeams in later years before Judd's became the engine of choice (now it's NME's and various motorcycle hybrids).
I think the first chassis Roy fitted it to was the 741 March he ran in 1977


Wonder where that engine is today?

[gablet]

Thanks Tim!

[Cargo]

Some more scans , requested by gablet.





http://i345.photobuc...Album 2/S_P.jpg

 

 

http://i345.photobuc...Album 3/S_P.jpg

 

 

http://i345.photobuc...Album#2/S_P.jpg

 

Edited by Cargo, 04 September 2018 - 18:28.

[gablet]

Thanks so much Cargo!

[GroupC2]

For many years multiple British Hillclimb Champion, the late Roy Lane, ran a DFV which the commentators always identified as Bruce McLaren's 1968 Belgian GP winner.
I think this was the engine that powered the famous 2-4-0 March in 1979 and various Pilbeams in later years before Judd's became the engine of choice (now it's NME's and various motorcycle hybrids).
I think the first chassis Roy fitted it to was the 741 March he ran in 1977


Wonder where that engine is today?

Roy put the engine into his 79S car, which my step father Ken Ayres bought. He then used it to win the British Sprint championship. We always worked with Martin at Lyncar, so building a car with him was always talked about, and a bigger engine was part of this, so he bought an ex Lola DFL 3.9 to put in it

So Ken sold the March with the engine to Paul Edwards (if my memory serves me well), who ran it for a couple of years.

[Lemoine]

Hello, very intrusting this forum and with great names!!! I am French and it will be a pleasure to talk with you.
I possess a DFV engine with number 115 engraved on it. It seems to be an ex Lotus 72. If someone knows anything in order to help me in the history of this engine... Excuse my poor school English. Best regards from France. JML

[63Corvette]

Doug and Pete, this is a great Forum for "old guys". It is an honor to share the same Forum with people like you. I find I am the same aage as Pete, and only a couple of years older than Doug. Isn't THIS a wonderful age to have grown up with the Automobile?

[arttidesco]

Only eight years ago I said I was starting to feel ridiculous looking for DFV engine numbers ...

 

 

... however I know how dear 906 is to Peter Connew's heart and there was a sincere suggestion, from someone well connected on this forum, many eons ago that it might be in the back of ....

 

 

.... the restored M7C, unfortunately it is not there at present....

 

call me ridiculous, I am sure there must be worse crimes against humanity 

[Thundersports]

How many of the original blocks turned up in F3000?

That puts a spoke in the wheel?

[PhantomRaspberryBlower]

Didn't Bernie buy up all the DFVs he could get his hands on during the turbo era, cheap-as-chips, then push the FIA to introduce F3000? Nice little earner or apochryphal, who knows?

 

Were the DFZs new engines or enlarged DFVs/DFYs?

[arttidesco]

Didn't Bernie buy up all the DFVs he could get his hands on during the turbo era, cheap-as-chips, then push the FIA to introduce F3000? Nice little earner or apochryphal, who knows?

 

Were the DFZs new engines or enlarged DFVs/DFYs?

IIRC the DFZ and earlier two versions of the DFL had different bores and strokes to the the DFV/DFY but were otherwise much the same unlike the later DFR and which only shared the 90 degree V8 architecture ;-)

[Charlieman]

Didn't Bernie buy up all the DFVs he could get his hands on during the turbo era, cheap-as-chips, then push the FIA to introduce F3000?

This thesis depends on owners of DFVs being unaware that Formula 3000 was being introduced, at the same time that some F1 teams were advised that their chassis might be a good prospect.

[PhantomRaspberryBlower]

This thesis depends on owners of DFVs being unaware that Formula 3000 was being introduced, at the same time that some F1 teams were advised that their chassis might be a good prospect.

 

Ah - but weren't the only F1 chassis to run in F3000 one or two Tyrrells and Williams? In other words, two of the last F1 DFV users and less likely to offload their units to Bernie. I'm just playing with this scenario, btw, I've no idea what the actual sequence of events was.

Edited by PhantomRaspberryBlower, 20 March 2020 - 12:53.

[arttidesco]

Ah - but weren't the only F1 chassis to run in F3000 one or two Tyrrells and Williams? In other words, two of the last F1 DFV users and less likely to offload their units to Bernie. I'm just playing with this scenario, btw, I've no idea what the actual sequence of events was.

 

IIRC it has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum recently that Karl Borgudd (Slim to his friends) drove an Arrows A6 in F3000 ;-)

[GazChed]

From memory five ex-Grand Prix cars appeared at Thruxton for what was to be the circuit's final Easter Monday European Championship race.

PMC Motorsport entered Thierry Tassin and Lamberto Leoni in a pair of Williams FWO8Cs, Barron Racing's pair of Tyrrell 012s were handled by Claudio Langes and Roberto Moreno while as mentioned elsewhere Roger Cowman entered Slim Borgudd in an Arrows A6 which at Thruxton failed to qualify.

On a day of changing weather, Langes left the grid for the final warming up lap with a mixture of slicks and wets on his car completing the change in the pits and starting from the pit lane !

[Thundersports]

A Ram was run in F3000 as well.

[Michael Ferner]

IIRC it has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum recently that Karl Borgudd (Slim to his friends) drove an Arrows A6 in F3000 ;-)

 

Karl? I do seem to recall his real name was Tommy...

[Tim Murray]

His full name is Karl Edvard Tommy Borgudd. I shall call him Edvard from now on, just to be different.

[John Ginger]

His full name is Karl Edvard Tommy Borgudd. I shall call him Edvard from now on, just to be different.

Sorry to go off topic but thats not what I called him when he ground down one of my sockets to fit a wheel bolt 😬