39 replies to this topic

[speedman13]

With Jarno Trulli losing his drive there will be no Italian on the grid for the next GP.
Has this ever happened before in the history of the World Championship.
Also why do you think Italy has not had a World Champion since Ascari in 1953.

[BRG]

With Jarno Trulli losing his drive there will be no Italian on the grid for the next GP.
Has this ever happened before in the history of the World Championship.
Also why do you think Italy has not had a World Champion since Ascari in 1953.

I have heard it said that it is not since 1969 (although Ernesto Brambilla was entered for Monza but didn't start).

As to why no WCs since Ascari, you could equally ask why only one French WC, when tiny Finland has three? Why no Japanese GP winners, let alone WCs?

[Tim Murray]

The first World Championship F1 race without an Italian driver was the 1958 German GP, and the majority of races over the next three or four years were run without Italians.

[Vitesse2]

Also why do you think Italy has not had a World Champion since Ascari in 1953.

A combination of the weight of expectation and what might be termed "Ferrari-centricity":

http://forix.autospo...m/8w/italy.html

I wrote this eleven ( ) years ago, somewhat tongue in cheek. Plus ça change ...

Martini's entry was made in the name of Scuderia Everest, a Fiat/Ferrari joint initiative allegedly to help develop young Italian drivers reach the top: Martini was nearly 29! This arrangement is reminiscent of the FISA team, which brought Giancarlo Baghetti to Ferrari in 1961, winning his first three Formula 1 races. The name, however, provides possibly unconscious humour, in that Everest is probably the size of the mountain of difficulties that an Italian driver will have to surmount before we see another Italian World Champion! Unbelievably, it is nearly fifty years since Ascari clinched his second title, the last Italian to do so.

So, make that "nearly sixty" then.

http://forix.autospo....html#ARMSTRONG

Edited by Vitesse2, 18 February 2012 - 13:42.

[Tim Murray]

Following a continuous run of Italian participation from the 1973 Austrian GP to the end of 1995, there were a number of F1 GP races in 1996 without any Italians on the grid. From 1997 onward I suspect that there have not been any Italian-free GPs, but I don't have any easily-checked references after 1999.

[ensign14]

Japan 1996 saw no Italian starters after Johnny Carwash missed the grid. Fisichella went full-time at the start of 1997 and the only race he missed till 2010 was the USGP 2005, which nearly everyone missed...

[Tim Murray]

... the USGP 2005, which nearly everyone missed...

Oops - forgot that one, which also rather spoils the British continuous participation stats.

[zoff2005]

Paul di Resta
Daniel Ricciardo
Italians are everywhere!
No native Italians in F1 because there are no Italian sponsors .. at least not at F1 levels.
Same goes for France - remember when there were 6 or 7 Frenchmen on the grid - now only two (none last year I think).
Marcus

Edited by zoff2005, 18 February 2012 - 17:38.

[gio66]

1950 - 12 italian drivers (Ascari, Biondetti, Bonetto, Comotti, Fagioli, Farina, Pagani, Rol, Sanesi, Serafini, Taruffi, Villoresi).
1951 - 8 (Ascari, Bonetto, Fagioli, Farina, Rol, Sanesi, Taruffi, Villoresi).
1952 - 10 (Ascari, Bonetto, Carini, Comotti, Fagioli, Farina, Rol, Sanesi, Taruffi, Villoresi).
1953 - 8 (Ascari, Bonetto, Carini, Farina, Maglioli, Mantovani, Musso, Villoresi).
1954 - 7 (Ascari, Farina, Maglioli, Mantovani, Musso, Taruffi, Villoresi).
1955 - 9 (Ascari, Castellotti, Farina, Maglioli, Mantovani, Musso, Perdisa, Taruffi, Villoresi).
1956 - 10 (Castellotti, Gerini, Maglioli, Musso, Perdisa, Piotti, Scarlatti, Scotti, Taruffi, Villoresi).
1957 - 6 (Castellotti, Musso, Perdisa, Piotti, Scarlatti, Scotti).
1958 - 5 (Cabianca, De Filippis, Gerini, Musso, Scarlatti).
1959 - 2 (Cabianca, Scarlatti).
1960 - 4 (Cabianca, Drogo, Munaron, Scarlatti).
1961 - 9 (Baghetti, Bandini, Bussinello, Lippi, Natili, Pirocchi, Scarlatti, Starabba, Vaccarella).
1962 - 3 (Baghetti, Bandini, Vaccarella).
1963 - 3 (Baghetti, Bandini, Scarfiotti).
1964 - 3 (Baghetti, Bandini, Scarfiotti).
1965 - 6 (Baghetti, Bandini, Bassi, Bussinello, Russo, Vaccarella).
1966 - 4 (Baghetti, Bandini, Russo, Scarfiotti).
1967 - 3 (Baghetti, Bandini, Scarfiotti).
1968 - 2 (De Adamich, Scarfiotti)
1969 - no italian drivers
1970 - 2 (De Adamich, Giunti)
1971 - 2 (De Adamich, Galli)
1972 - 3 (De Adamich, Galli, Merzario)
1973 - 3 (De Adamich, Galli, Merzario)
1974 - 2 (Brambilla, Merzario)
1975 - 4 (Brambilla, Lombardi, Merzario, Zorzi)
1976 - 5 (Brambilla, Lombardi, Merzario, Pesenti-Rossi, Zorzi)
1977 - 5 (Brambilla, Giacomelli, Merzario, Patrese, Zorzi)
1978 - 5 (Brambilla, Giacomelli, Leoni, Merzario, Patrese)
1979 - 5 (Brambilla, De Angelis, Giacomelli, Merzario, Patrese)
1980 - 5 (Brambilla, De Angelis, De Cesaris, Giacomelli, Patrese)
1981 - 8 (Alboreto, De Angelis, De Cesaris, Gabbiani, Ghinzani, Giacomelli, Patrese, Stohr)
1982 - 8 (Alboreto, Baldi, De Angelis, De Cesaris, Fabi T., Giacomelli, Paletti, Patrese)
1983 - 8 (Alboreto, Baldi, De Angelis, De Cesaris, Fabi C., Ghinzani, Giacomelli, Patrese)
1984 - 8 (Alboreto, Baldi, De Angelis, De Cesaris, Fabi C., Fabi T., Ghinzani, Patrese)
1985 - 9 (Alboreto, Baldi, Capelli, De Angelis, De Cesaris, Fabi T., Ghinzani, Martini, Patrese)
1986 - 9 (Alboreto, Caffi, Capelli, De Angelis, De Cesaris, Fabi T., Ghinzani, Nannini, Patrese)
1987 - 11 (Alboreto, Caffi, Capelli, De Cesaris, Fabi T., Ghinzani, Larini, Modena, Nannini, Patrese, Tarquini)
1988 - 11 (Alboreto, Caffi, Capelli, De Cesaris, Ghinzani, Larini, Martini, Modena, Nannini, Patrese, Tarquini)
1989 - 13 (Alboreto, Barilla, Caffi, Capelli, De Cesaris, Ghinzani, Larini, Martini, Modena, Nannini, Patrese, Pirro, Tarquini)
1990 - 13 (Alboreto, Barilla, Caffi, Capelli, De Cesaris, Larini, Martini, Modena, Morbidelli, Nannini, Patrese, Pirro, Tarquini)
1991 - 12 (Alboreto, Caffi, Capelli, De Cesaris, Larini, Martini, Modena, Morbidelli, Patrese, Pirro, Tarquini, Zanardi)
1992 - 11 (Alboreto, Capelli, De Cesaris, Larini, Martini, Modena, Morbidelli, Naspetti, Patrese, Tarquini, Zanardi)
1993 - 10 (Alboreto, Apicella, Badoer, Barbazza, Capelli, De Cesaris, Martini, Naspetti, Patrese, Zanardi)
1994 - 7 (Alboreto, De Cesaris, Larini, Martini, Morbidelli, Schiattarella, Zanardi)
1995 - 8 (Badoer, Lavaggi, Martini, Montermini, Morbidelli, Papis, Schiattarella, Tarquini)
1996 - 4 (Badoer, Fisichella, Lavaggi, Montermini)
1997 - 4 (Fisichella, Larini, Morbidelli, Trulli)
1998 - 2 (Fisichella, Trulli)
1999 - 4 (Badoer, Fisichella, Trulli, Zanardi)
2000 - 2 (Fisichella, Trulli)
2001 - 2 (Fisichella, Trulli)
2002 - 2 (Fisichella, Trulli)
2003 - 2 (Fisichella, Trulli)
2004 - 4 (Bruni, Fisichella, Pantano, Trulli)
2005 - 3 (Fisichella, Liuzzi, Trulli)
2006 - 3 (Fisichella, Liuzzi, Trulli)
2007 - 3 (Fisichella, Liuzzi, Trulli)
2008 - 2 (Fisichella, Trulli)
2009 - 4 (Badoer, Fisichella, Liuzzi, Trulli)
2010 - 2 (Liuzzi, Trulli)
2011 - 2 (Liuzzi, Trulli)
2012 - no italian drivers

[gio66]

in Italy there is no proper motorsport as such. There is only Ferrari - and all its bloated bs - that blocks the development of an healthy motorsport movement.

To Ferrari all the great motorsport tradition has been sacrificed: Abarth, Fiat, Lancia in rally; Alfa Romeo etc. This situation also hampers the emergence of suitable and capable drivers (point one above). Dallara is more an industrial concern - very successful - than just sport. Crucially they don't run their own cars, they only sell them.

+1.000.000.000

[ryan86]

You know, amongst that list gio posted and the Italian title drought I can only see one genuine title campaign put in there since 1953, Alboreto in 1985. It's not like the European golf Major drought (1999-2007), where you could point to play-off defeats, an excellent shot by an opponent or a truly awful approach to the 72nd hole at Winged Foot, they have been absolutely nowhere near acheiving it. Even if Brazil's title drought is now 20 seasons, you can at least point to 4 efforts (Rubens: 2000, 2009; Massa: 2007, 2008) where they were in with a chance.

[Nanni Dietrich]

1950 - 12 italian drivers (Ascari, Biondetti, Bonetto, Comotti, Fagioli, Farina, Pagani, Rol, Sanesi, Serafini, Taruffi, Villoresi).
...


1989 - 13 (Alboreto, Barilla, Caffi, Capelli, De Cesaris, Ghinzani, Larini, Martini, Modena, Nannini, Patrese, Pirro, Tarquini)
1990 - 13 (Alboreto, Barilla, Caffi, Capelli, De Cesaris, Larini, Martini, Modena, Morbidelli, Nannini, Patrese, Pirro, Tarquini)
...


2012 - no italian drivers

1990: 14, you forgot Claudio Langes (Eurobrun-Judd) 14 times DNPQ.

[Racer.Demon]

A combination of the weight of expectation and what might be termed "Ferrari-centricity":

http://forix.autospo...m/8w/italy.html

I wrote this eleven ( ) years ago, somewhat tongue in cheek. Plus ça change ...

So, make that "nearly sixty" then.

http://forix.autospo....html#ARMSTRONG

Plus ça change indeed... Thanks for linking to my article, V2, which echoes the above sentiments of Regazzoni and gio66. I wrote that one year ago, so I'm curious to know whether this 'new' situation will encourage Ferrari to stick with Marciello and Maisano for a while instead of dropping them like they did with Bortolotti and Zampieri. But that's hardly TNF stuff.

Also, I believe it was no coincidence that it was during Ferrari's longest slump ever that Italy eventually rose to 14 drivers on the grid, helped by Marlboro Italia and all those former F2 minnows filling the Ferrari void by stepping up to F1. That was before Marlboro decided to put all its eggs in one basket again...

[cheapracer]

Also why do you think Italy has not had a World Champion since Ascari in 1953.

Alboreto did all he could in '85.

[Amphicar]

1990: 14, you forgot Claudio Langes (Eurobrun-Judd) 14 times DNPQ.

DNPQ = not on the grid so gio66 was right

[RogerFrench]

Of course, there has been an Italian-born, Italian-named World Champion since Ascari....

[David McKinney]

Wasn't Andretti born in Croatia (then Yugoslavia)?

[D-Type]

Wasn't Andretti born in Croatia (then Yugoslavia)?

At the time he was born, the town was in Italy, after the war it became Yugoslavia, then when Yugoslavia split up it became Croatia. As far as I know it is still in Croatia.

[frp]

Wasn't Andretti born in Croatia (then Yugoslavia)?

He was born in Montana, which was then in Italy, but is now in Croatia, and renamed Motovun.
They're devils, these shifting borders!


Andy

Duncan beat me to it.

Edited by frp, 20 February 2012 - 17:26.

[gio66]

He was born in Montana

Montona d'Istria

Edited by gio66, 20 February 2012 - 17:53.

[D-Type]

I see that Wikipedia says that Italian is the native language of 45% of the population of Motovun/Montona.

Before we stray too far into interesting things like Istrian geography, Balkan politics and Italian spelling let's make a half-hearted try to return to the subject of the thread.

How long is it since we had a season without:
a Briton?
a Frenchman?
a German?
a Finn?
a Brazilian?
I think that's all the regulars.

I don't mean without any of them - you know what I mean

Edited by D-Type, 20 February 2012 - 19:54.

[Tim Murray]

The first one's easy - there has never been a season without a British driver on the grid since the World Championship began. In fact there are only four World Championship Grands Prix which had no British driver on the grid:

1950 Swiss GP
1951 Spanish GP
1980 Monaco GP
2005 US GP

This obviously doesn't include the Indianapolis 500 races that counted towards the WDC, in which I believe no British drivers took part.

[Rob G]

We didn't have any Frenchmen last year (or 2010, for that matter), and now there are three.

[ryan86]

The Finn's are really only a recent F1 "powerhouse", and excluding the anomaly of the 2005 US GP, I believe the last time they had no drivers would be the 1994 Hungarian GP. Before that I believe there would be about 40 races or so between Rosberg's retirement and Lehto's debut, then the second half of 1990 as well. Lehto DNQ'ed for 7 races in that 1989-1990 period as well if you count those, but at least they had someone trying.

As for the Germans I'd say 1991 British or Hungarian GP, depending on how you look at a DNQ.

The last GP without a Brazilian was the 1982 San Marino GP I think.

[Concreteconrods]

Didn't Ascari win his championships in F2 cars?

[D-Type]

Didn't Ascari win his championships in F2 cars?

So what!

History records that in 1952 and 1953 the World Drivers' Championship races were for F2 cars + Indianapolis; in 1950, 1951, and 1954 to 1960 for Formula 1 cars + Indianapolis; and after 1961 for Formula 1 cars. That's the way it happened.

It is only since 1981 or 1982 that the title of the Championship has been "The FIA Formula 1 World Championship. And more recentlyMr Ecclestone trade marked (or is it only tried to trade mark) the term "Formula 1"

Edited by D-Type, 21 February 2012 - 16:07.

[Collombin]

the fact that he went to Monza in the early '50s, etc. Other contemporary leading American drivers - Foyt, the Unsers - never had that notion in their minds, their horizon was the Eastern seaboard and I am afraid it was their loss ultimately.

Foyt actually did go to Monza in the '50s to compete against the leading European drivers. OK, not in F1, but still worth mentioning.

[D-Type]

But, while Troy Ruttman stayed around and tried a couple of grands prix, I think AJ went straight home to the US of A.

[frp]

Montona d'Istria

Yes, indeed. Sorry.

[Rob G]

Foyt actually did go to Monza in the '50s to compete against the leading European drivers. OK, not in F1, but still worth mentioning.

And Bobby Unser did try to race at Monza in F1, but things didn't go according to plan.

[Stephen W]

And Bobby Unser did try to race at Monza in F1, but things didn't go according to plan.

He did start the 1968 US GP in a BRM but retired.

[Arjan de Roos]

Gio66's statistic review in post #9 reflects several things:
-1- The eary 50's where motor racing thrived on Italy. Alfa and Maserati resurrected with some prewar machinery, Ferrari starting of. Some Grand Prix even had a grid of only italian cars (also some championship ones). Only little opposition from France. Maybe we could say Ascari (I regard him highly) had little oppposition?
-2- Not many italians in F1 in the sixties. Was this caused by the 50's/60's economic situation in Italy? No proper class to start racing? Too much pressure from press and public?
-3- The great numbers in the 80's and 90's. Also a result of the booming Go-Kart industry and racing scene in Italy. Still it did not result in a WC F1 (maybe a sober conclusion for in the eighties it was said one could only reach F1 by starting in go-karting).
-4- Where did the many Italian sponsors from the 80's/90's have gone? The also contributed to the many Italians racing F1, F3000, F3... in those years.

Anyone to reflect Gio66's post to a thorough socio-economic analysis?

[zoff2005]

For point 4 you can blame the Italian Tax Authorities...
There was a time, a few years ago, when the Guardia di Finanza would send agents to Italian races, photographing the cars, and on Monday morning start auditing the sponsors!
A lot of them got cold feet as a result, and you can hardly blame them.

Marcus

[Stephen W]

1990: 14, you forgot Claudio Langes (Eurobrun-Judd) 14 times DNPQ.

Given that those who didn't start were excluded from the list above then I can understand why they were not on the list but in the interest of fullness the following Italians failed to start a GP even though they did try to qualify:

1952 - Alberto Crespo & Piero Dusio
1954 - Goivanni de Riu
1958 - Luigi Taramazzo
1962 - Ernesto Prinoth
1963 - Tino Brambilla
1969 - Tino Brambilla again!
1974 - Carlo Facetti
1977 - Girogio Francia
1978 - Alberto Colombo & "Gimax"
1979 - Gianfranco Brancatelli
1981 - Giorgio Francia again!!
1989 - Enrico Bertaggia
1990 - Claudio Langes
1992 - Giovanna Amati & once again Enrico Bertaggia

[gio66]

Gio66's statistic review in post #9 reflects several things:

-3- The great numbers in the 80's and 90's. Also a result of the booming Go-Kart industry and racing scene in Italy. Still it did not result in a WC F1 (maybe a sober conclusion for in the eighties it was said one could only reach F1 by starting in go-karting).
-4- Where did the many Italian sponsors from the 80's/90's have gone? The also contributed to the many Italians racing F1, F3000, F3... in those years.

Point 3 is directly linked to in point 4.

In the 80's many companies were interested in sponsoring the drivers to make false invoices and evade taxes.

After Tangentopoli, many companies have fled the F1 (and motorsport in general).

[Paolo]

Point 3 is directly linked to in point 4.

In the 80's many companies were interested in sponsoring the drivers to make false invoices and evade taxes.

After Tangentopoli, many companies have fled the F1 (and motorsport in general).

Spot on.

[David McKinney]

Given that those who didn't start were excluded from the list above then I can understand why they were not on the list but in the interest of fullness the following Italians failed to start a GP even though they did try to qualify:

1952 - Alberto Crespo & Piero Dusio
1954 - Goivanni de Riu
1958 - Luigi Taramazzo
1962 - Ernesto Prinoth
1963 - Tino Brambilla
1969 - Tino Brambilla again!
1974 - Carlo Facetti
1977 - Girogio Francia
1978 - Alberto Colombo & "Gimax"
1979 - Gianfranco Brancatelli
1981 - Giorgio Francia again!!
1989 - Enrico Bertaggia
1990 - Claudio Langes
1992 - Giovanna Amati & once again Enrico Bertaggia

Crespo was Argentinian

And I've never been 100% certain whether Prinoth was Italian, or from somewhere over the Alps where people had names like that

[ReWind]

Prinoth WAS Italian but from South Tyrol.
So I think his real given name wasn't Ernesto but Ernst.
Homepage
Wikipedia

[sbrinley]

That seems a big ask. I can only try a very simplified reply as I cannot document myself from here and I wouldn’t have time to do it properly in any case.

It is worth asking whether a socio-economic analysis alone explains the presence and quality of the drivers of a nation in F1. There are obviously many other factors. Otherwise why, for example, there are so many Finnish drivers and no Swedish or Norwegian ones?

Following Arjan’s points:

1) Ascari in 1953 had Fangio as competitor. Obviously the high number of Italian car entrants helped to have a high number of drivers. The economic boom was from the second half of the ‘50s and by the early ‘60s it was already loosing steam. Huge internal migration, from the South to the industrialized North, took place and continued in the next decade.

2) The ‘60s. Possibly an influence was the deaths of leading drivers as Castellotti and Musso at the end of the ‘50s - Ferrari famously accused of being a “Saturn devouring his children” by the Vatican - as well as the demise of the Mille Miglia. Furthermore, and probably most important, the English constructors started to take hold and English-speaking drivers dominated the decade. The second half of the ‘60s was economically problematic, with unions-industrial confrontations culminated with the so called “autunno caldo” [hot autumn] in 1969.

3) The great numbers in the ‘80s and ‘90s were a result of the Italian sponsors and the widespread black economy. Most of these sponsors came notoriously from the so called industrial districts: ceramic tiles in Emilia, domestic appliances in Lombardy, sweaters and shirts in Veneto, etc. The drivers came from karting, but I don’t think most of those drivers were worth a shot at the WDC. Some seemed worth of further scrutiny, as Martini for example, but never got a proper break. It seems that even with sponsorship cover none of these except Patrese (and De Angelis previously) got a serious drive in the top tier, where it really mattered in order to win a WDC. The English constructors preferred to invest in South American drivers rather than Italians. Ron Dennis notoriously would never employ an Italian driver. Rightly, I am afraid. In particular after have dealt with a young De Cesaris, who seemed a great prospect, very quick from the start but totally useless, no brains whatosever.

4) “Where did the many Italian sponsors from the 80's/90's have gone?” The way the Italian economy has gone in the last twenty-plus years. Exactly in the same direction. Nosediving.

On the other hand, Berlusconi’s companies have never been better. Rejoice!

Regarding both the first and second items, Italian manufacturers dominated the sport immediately following WWII and well into the '50s, the exception being the 2 years Mercedes re-entered the sport in '54-'55. English manufacturers finally began to become competitive in the last few years of the decade. Morover, in the late '40s and throughout the '50s into the early '60s, Grand Prix racing was still very much a national, not an international, sport. So Italian builders naturally had mainly Italian drivers and English builders largely had English drivers. They also generally used components built in their own countries. It was not until the mid-'60s that this really began to change as GP cars became international cars insofar as components were concerned.

[Racer.Demon]

It is worth asking whether a socio-economic analysis alone explains the presence and quality of the drivers of a nation in F1. There are obviously many other factors. Otherwise why, for example, there are so many Finnish drivers and no Swedish or Norwegian ones?

I did a series on this theme, covering France, Italy, The Netherlands, Belgium, Austria & Finland and Europe vs America. By no means definitive socio-economic studies but they are a start. Some of the things the resident Italians here are posting on this thread, such as the consequences of Tangentopoli, are very interesting, and would indeed deserve a place in such a study.